Love In Our Lives - KK's blog space thing

Trapped

I am not supposed to be telling you where I am but I'll say I am being legally held and prevented from going to work for the 7th day now. I can't leave and my existence has not been acknowledged for 2 going on 3 days and now I am fairly certain they've forgotten I exist as I haven't been given breaks for lunch or been told when to go home for the day. My boss gets highly paranoid when I am gone for any reason. He starts imagining I will get hit by a car or something and then asks me to write down directions to everything I ever do. I'm talking manuals for every website and program I use which already exist. We're a two person operation. I just don't have the time or sanity to do that. I have also never been given any training so as far as I'm concerned if I am tragically killed, he can hire someone to figure it out the same way I did. For some reason he loses all confidence in his ability to do anything on his own even though he is quite capable.

I have absolutely no control over what happens or when this ends. I cannot afford to miss another week of pay this close to all of our taxes having just been paid. On top of that they've left the tv on constant forest fire coverage. I can't imagine anything they could put on that I would personally find more distressing while being detained. I have reached my breaking point with this.

I am supposed to be taking next friday and the following monday off for our May trip. I made a reservation for that trip 6 months ago but my boss won't remember that so its going to be news to him even IF I get to go back to work next week. What if it isn't over by then? Nevermind that we aren't actually going to the place I made a reservation for 6 months ago because "the band" is playing a show that weekend which is close to where one of our friends lives. I almost can't believe their schedule has changed the only time I managed to plan anything that far in advance.

This particular place is extremely hard to get a reservation for and it's special enough that its one of the only times Jasper asked me not to go there with Herman before he could go. Making other plans was delayed. First we had to wait to see what day of the weekend the show was. Then I was hoping to get a new reservation for September but I missed the date they became available. There was discussion of trying to make this show and see our friend and keep the reservation but it's just too much for one long weekend.

Now I have to figure out a new place to go for the weekend after the show on friday. I need to talk to our friend about visiting. I have to talk my boss off a cliff about me leaving and its my turn to ask the band about getting on the guestlist. They have insisted we ask when we want to go to shows. They are extremely nice about it and have no problem saying no if it isn't possible. But it is still nerve wracking to do and I haven't had any contact with them though Jasper has been more in the loop recently. I'd almost rather buy tickets to avoid it but thanks to the lack of paycheck.... Oh yeah I'm also going to need to do all the packing, supply shopping, rent a bigger car, blah blah.

So like I said I've already passed my mental threshold for the current situation, then last night Jasper mentions its only a week until we meet up again and I made some exasperated sound like oof because I have no idea how this is all going to get worked out in a week. He says No not oof. I'm thinking yeah oof. I start feeling anxious and then get super upset because I can't talk to him about everything I'm stressed about. He asks why I can't talk about it and I say I don't feel like anyone will be sympathetic towards me and discussions about our visits are historically too emotionally charged and I can't deal with where I know this conversation is going to go on this particular night. He keeps pushing and so I tried to talk.

I say no plans are set. He insists he made his thoughts on the plans known (so his part was done right? don't blame me) yeah ok well the place he preferred has no availability, no one has talked to our friend about seeing her and we still have no tickets to the show... so nothing is done. Yes I am aware these are my responsibilities and eventually I'll have to get it done.

I discuss my work situation. He says your boss knows you're leaving right? I say I told him but as per usual he won't remember until I mention it again and I haven't seen him the last week. He says well that isn't your fault. Yeah I know but that doesn't make him any less paranoid. He continues to argue this weeks absense was not my decision. Ahh yes but next weekend is. To which he immediately jumps to "ARE YOU SAYING I SHOULD CANCEL THIS TRIP? THATS WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE" Yep thats where I expected this conversation to go. I want to cancel, I don't want to see him, I'm always trying to sabotage going to shows at the last minute because I'm jealous, or who knows what else. I'm just in no place to deal with that. I just needed to be able to talk out my worries and I was actually feeling even worse that I felt like I couldn't talk to him about it because I knew he would take it personally and jump to canceling as if thats really the solution I'm looking for.

I've said it before and I mean it, I don't want to sound like I'm blaming them for these things being my responsibility. Therefore I feel bad talking about it at all. In addition they just don't understand all the stress it causes me. Yes I acknowledge we all put in a lot of effort to take trips like this. All I really wanted was to have it acknowledged that I was stressing because of it instead of this like bewildered reaction of Why? what could you possibly be concerned with? It's not like we've gone through this all a million times before but I don't understand what you're feeling at all. Then when I try to explain, WHAT???? This is all news to me, obviously you must want me to cancel!

So I sat up half the night wondering why he couldn't just be nice to me. I hear myself, boohoo I couldn't work this week, at least I'm healthy and have a job. boohoo I have to put in some work to visit beautiful places with two men who love me. boohoo I have to contact my favorite band about getting in to their shows for free because they have been nice enough to tell me to do so. I don't expect most people to be sympathetic but he should be. If he didn't realize it was stressful he wouldn't have asked me to do it this time! We are both prone to the occasional freakout whether its rational or not and damn it I think I've managed to respond to his calmly and not make it all about me.

I began to wonder if maybe the reason why I never receive the treatment I am hoping for is that I haven't ever made it clear how I want to be treated. Maybe I'm not responding with the treatment he'd like either. I don't know if thats true or not but I guess it's worth a shot.
 
Sorry for the drama

Ok I'm free!

I was an alternate juror. Which means you are present for the whole trial which I totally understood and remained calm during. But then once they go into deliberations, they just lock the alternates in a room and thats it, no further instructions, stay here until we tell you you can leave. In the end they called us up to the courtroom and then told us in the hall we could go. No thanks for your service, I still have no idea what the outcome was. I know I was being super dramatic about it but after three days and lack of contact from our court (other alternates seemed to receive a lot more information and scheduling.) I was losing it. There was absolutely no reason for us to be there. Once the trial was over they could have just called us in if a replacement was needed. I thought we were required to be there when they read the verdict or something but no. We were treated with absolutely no respect by our court during the trial either. There was one day we were in court for less than 100 minutes of the entire day. It took 7 days for less than 4 hours of testimony. The judge insisted that was not normal but it happened every day I was there. UGH! Ok it's over. Sorry for the rant.
 
The 3 of us set out to get this trip ironed out on saturday night. I finally realized it is exceedingly difficult for them to help because we each look at planning with entirely different priorities. Herman wants to address each detail in chronological order while I want to make decisions in order of most pressing need. They both started discussing thursday night because it comes first but I don't need to have a schedule for Thursday right now. I need to get reservations secure for Saturday, the day when our options will be most limited. Also literally every other detail of the trip is based on knowing this one fact of where are we ultimately going. I can't figure out a schedule for friday without knowing where we are headed on saturday. I don't think that makes any sense to them but it seems so obvious to me. Why bother to lock down where to sleep on friday if I'm not sure if I want to be 100 miles north or 50 miles south the next morning?

I will acknowledge that sometimes the order in which I need to decide things becomes circular and I become trapped but this time seemed pretty simple.

I am struggling with trying not to feel like my way is right. Jasper was packing in the middle of this conversation. Not only did I find it a little rude that he was distracted with something else while we were trying to get things decided, but how can he know what to bring before we know what we're doing? He asks should he bring goggles? How the hell should I know? If you guys could just focus on MY question of WHERE we are ultimately going, I can answer all these other questions like where are we meeting on thursday and do I need goggles easily.

When deciding on locations and activities I group things into categories and narrow options by asking questions about the desired experience. What type of weather would you prefer? these things will be warmer, these things will be cooler. How much time do you want to spend hiking? These hikes are longer, these are shorter. Jasper won't answer these questions insisting he can't know his preference until he hears all the options. Unfortunately he asks about the options with questions like "tell me about them" which I respond, what kind of description are you looking for? What information do you need to know? Because my mind makes decisions by grouping. I honestly don't know what he is looking for when he asks "tell me about it"

I understand that sometimes the available things to do dictate that kind of experience the trip is but if the location is not set, the experience desired can dictate the things to do.

We didn't get nearly enough done but we did accomplish a few things and it did make it easier to talk having a better idea why it was feeling so hard. We also recognized in the middle of this that as couples we operate at a completely different pace. Jasper and I are used to trying to cram a lot of things in to a short time because we're used to only having a short time together. Herman and I are less goal oriented. Herman would more prefer to have a base camp, enjoy a place and not do so much running. He suggested that if we did set up a home base then Jasper and I could spend some time running like mad while he did something more leisurely. That is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to learn about what everyone wanted to do in order to decide where to go. It just seems so difficult to get them to talk about things in the context I find useful ha! Ok that does sound terribly rude. Surely it would to help if I ask to focus on a specific topic in a more polite way than "Why are we being distracted with that?"

I hope writing some things I recognized from this go round will help me learn something for next time.
 
You know I really felt like communication has been improving but...

Well I guess it is more obvious now why I was so upset last thursday. It seems Jasper didn't actually hear me say any of those things I hadn't done yet. I'm not sure how that is possible but it was late... Well he certainly had heard some of it since that's what led to the Saturday talk so now I'm really not sure how that is possible. Anyhow I simply can't even formulate the words for how I feel about his disappointment with me. Maybe it isn't worth trying to talk about and I should just get to the lessons learned.

1. If you expect something to be done on a certain date you should ask "Is this done?" on or before that date.

2. I report everything I've done, if you haven't heard me say I did it, I haven't.

3. I am taking a break from planning anything.

4. I will never ever involve myself in his plans for shows again nor will I ever combine shows with other plans. Actually I don't think we should go to shows together anymore at all. It's going to be a big deal and we're going to have to fight about it at some point soon. The consequences that I probably won't see him as often and we will lose the shared experience that originally brought us together don't outweigh the problems it has caused between us now that I no longer feel the same way about shows that he does. I know he is going to be very upset about this but I am tired of being at failure at trying to make it work. I'm going to be upset too. I loved our travel together, I loved that we were able to share those experiences that few other people understood. Its hard to let go of things even when they aren't working anymore.

I am also feeling terrible about crying to Herman about it. In this case I know I needed to at least tell him what happened because we was involved in the problem and while I don't feel it was his fault at all, he needed to know what was going on and what Jasper was upset about.

The truth is Jasper handled it as well as he could have, at least outwardly. He handled his anger about it very well. He kept as calm as possible. He was able to move to talking about what needed to be done to fix it despite his mind still being stuck on how did this happen. He apologized for his reaction and told me it was a last in a long line of people not getting things done at work as well. He told me he loved me when we got off the phone. Nevertheless I am not handling it well at all.

I've gotten everything done. I'm picking up a car on my lunch break tomorrow, loading it and driving 6 hours after work. I've booked a room for him to check in to before we can get there. When looking up directions to the venue, I discovered the will call was several blocks from gates so I've bought him a ticket so he doesn't have to deal with possibly having to wait to pick one up and miss the opening. We'll wake up early and drop him off as early as he needs. It isn't enough and he is still upset. I keep telling myself its resolved because I know what to avoid in the future but its hard to feel like he even wants to see me now. I just want to talk to him without fighting and it just isn't possible. It seems like he thinks everything I do is a set up to trap him in to looking like the bad guy. Or to pull some games with him to intentionally ruin his day. I just don't understand where that comes from. Why is it so easy for him to think I could be so cruel, and if it is, what on earth is he with me for? It's all so far from reality as I see it.
 
kkxvlv said:
The truth is Jasper handled it as well as he could have, at least outwardly. He handled his anger about it very well. He kept as calm as possible. He was able to move to talking about what needed to be done to fix it despite his mind still being stuck on how did this happen. He apologized for his reaction and told me it was a last in a long line of people not getting things done at work as well. He told me he loved me when we got off the phone. Nevertheless I am not handling it well at all.

I've gotten everything done. I'm picking up a car on my lunch break tomorrow, loading it and driving 6 hours after work. I've booked a room for him to check in to before we can get there. When looking up directions to the venue, I discovered the will call was several blocks from gates so I've bought him a ticket so he doesn't have to deal with possibly having to wait to pick one up and miss the opening. We'll wake up early and drop him off as early as he needs. It isn't enough and he is still upset. I keep telling myself its resolved because I know what to avoid in the future but its hard to feel like he even wants to see me now. I just want to talk to him without fighting and it just isn't possible. It seems like he thinks everything I do is a set up to trap him in to looking like the bad guy. Or to pull some games with him to intentionally ruin his day. I just don't understand where that comes from. Why is it so easy for him to think I could be so cruel, and if it is, what on earth is he with me for? It's all so far from reality as I see it.
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I'm so sorry. I'm going through something very similar, at least in terms of the feelings involved, with my boyfriend right now and it sucks. He thinks that everything I've done is because I have negative assumptions about him and think he's a bad person. None of it is for that reason, but it's impossible to break through his thinking to reason with him. So I'm at this point that sounds very much like the point you are at also. Wondering why he thinks I'd think he's a bad person, wondering why he'd think I do these things to be mean to him. I'm so incredibly sorry that you're at this place too. It sucks and it hurts and it feels like there's no way out of it. I hope you're able to enjoy your weekend with your two loves anyway.
 
Thanks for your comment and the well wishes Hannah. It sounds like a self esteem issue all around, I know the three of us have weak spots there.

For another example, last week Jasper's dad got married. I'm not nearly as close with my parents and his parents split when he was young, my parents didn't split until I was an adult. I often fall short of understanding the dynamics he has with them. He and his sister have alleged for many years now that his father's (now) new wife was always attempting to drive a wedge between them and their father. Things like she would literally sit between them in social situations to make it difficult for them to talk rather than putting dad in the middle. It goes quite a bit beyond that as well. In my opinion I think it's possible this woman has some degree of insecurity which led her to do these things as well as the children (more so his sister) being a little too-attached for their age. So his dad was getting married at the courthouse and then having a reception afterwards. Jasper was told the courthouse event was just going to be the two of them, two witnesses and one of her three daughters who is a photographer. He had no problem with this. In fact when I asked him if he had wanted to be there he said no. After the event he found out a second of her daughters also attended. He said he would be pissed off if he found out the 3rd was also there because he was deceived by his dad and wife that the children (in general) were not invited. Of all the possibilities for why the daughters may or may not have attended at the last minute, and despite the fact that he did not even want to go, he has only one assumption for what happened. At some point during the engagement, his father sat down and decided to lie to him (or went along with such a plan) in order to exclude his children from his wedding. Personally If I really believed someone had intentionally done that to me, I wouldn't even bother being angry because I would have already written that person off. It sounds outrageous to me and I don't believe for a second that is what happened. Its just so sad to me that something leads him to these worst case scenario assumptions. I guess maybe I should take something from the fact that it isn't just an issue with me?
 
The Black Spot

I have been writing but not posting here for the last few weeks as I had been wanting to make an effort to talk to my partners instead of posting it here. This effort was rather unsuccessful.

I feel embarrassed about my newfound attachment to the concept of polyamory. I think because it goes back to the why now question. I was aware of it earlier, I just never felt a need to identify with it. No one is asking me to explain why now or questioning it at all but I feel weird about it. The acknowledgement just feels useful to me right now. I don't know why I am doing all this now, I keep trying to answer that question but I can't find it and I think it's just getting in the way of whatever progress I want to make. I can't keep distracting myself trying to figure that out.

A long while back I remember reading a post by GalaGirl where she said something like (paraphrasing here) what kind of wussy partner can't handle just talking about something?

It pops in my head often. Maybe I'm that wuss. I know I could handle just talking about anything that was brought to me. I know Herman could as well. Awhile back Herman and I were chatting in text, I basically told him I was pissed off that we were married. He responded that it was very frustrating when you think about it. This is why I imagine we'll be together forever. We were discussing our opinion on the marriage equality debate and it hit me that I hadn't really acknowledged the government's role in our relationship and I resented it. By the end of the conversation I thought it might be truly romantic for us to get divorced in celebration of our love of each other and freedom. I had no concerns at all having this conversation with him despite the fact that in essence it questioned our marriage.

But it isn't always that easy for me. I have these old fuzzy memories of times early in our relationship when I felt like I could tell him anything and I was willing to expose anything to him. I'm not sure I ever felt that way with anyone before. I don't feel that way now and I have been trying to figure out why and how to fix it for a very long time. Recently I think I've recognized it as being less overall and more that there just seems to be this black spot that I don't want to go near which sometimes affects things nearby but has certainly not covered our entire relationship. I have been trying to ignore that spot but I need to get rid of it and I think that means facing it.

I know when it changed. It changed the first time I hurt him. When I admitted to him I had sex with someone else I did it because I was so upset and I needed to talk to him. He was my person I could tell anything to. But I just transferred all of my pain to him. Seeing him hurt changed things for me slowly. There was something about me that hurt him and so I hid it and he ignored it. For me the fact that I cheated equates to the fact that I can love multiple people because that is why I did it. It all goes in the same black spot. It seems most things regarding my sexuality have fallen in as well.

Relatedly GalaGirl often speaks of the desire for a partner to accept all of you. For someone who identifies as polyamory being part of who they are and not just something they do or don't do, to feel truly loved I want that part of me accepted and loved with the rest, not hidden or denied. But I have that! No one has ever asked me to hide it or not talk about it. I impose that on myself. But that part (in my mind) hurt him. I haven't ever figured out what that means for me, I haven't ever made peace with it.

I just have this feeling that if I could just spit a bunch of things out I could quit worrying so much and just live. Most importantly I'd be ready for whatever life throws at us next.
 
Maybe I just Don't Get It

Maybe I am being overly simplistic in my view of poly and multiple relationships. I keep seeing those words "that isn't poly" or "poly is..." and I think, "that's nice, I don't really need to fit that exactly." I can see the argument that a narrow and pure definition helps explain it to those who are encountering the idea for the first time and that it is of some importance to those practicing polyamory to not have their actions associated with less positive situations in the minds of non-poly people.

One thing I've taken from being a part of this forum is that everyone has multiple relationships and the skills one needs in multiple romantic relationships are the same skills you need to manage multiple relationships of any kind. I see it everywhere.

The company I work for is just my boss and I. That one on one relationship shares an awful lot of the same characteristics that my relationships with the guys have. We've spent 12 years working together and I've known him longer than that. I can't say I don't love him in some way. I care very much about him and his business and his family. We have to take care of each other and we have to trust each other for this place to work. Our lives and financial matters are very intertwined.

I just don't really understand the delineation that makes loving your whole family ok, loving your children ok, loving your friends ok, but this one type of love should be reserved only for 1. It's not that I don't understand the thought process and advantages of monogamy. I also completely understand people who simply don't feel that kind of love for more than one, or people who choose not to develop the possibility of that kind of love. It's the "shouldn't" part I can't grasp.

I don't really see the difference between love and love and love. The way Jasper loves sports teams and "the band" and me feels like kinda the same thing to me. It is generally acceptable to devote the same time and passion and commitment to other things or other people, just as long as it's not "this one thing" and where is the line there? When does close friends become an emotional affair? Is an emotional connection not something best girl friends share? is it just sex then? Where is the line there? kissing is too far, foot rubs are too far, but not for everyone, Who decides? and more importantly, WHY? I just don't understand. Am I just too immature to see it? The connection I share with Herman is unique, but so is the connection I have with my boss, and with my mom. They will always be unique because they are individuals. Does it sound like I cheapen what I have with Herman because I speak of him and Jasper both as my partners?

I see the appeal and emotions involved in exclusivity but even that is something I still think relates to many kinds of relationships. For example recently Jasper and I were discussing how long it has been since he's had a haircut from someone other than me. At the time I was trying to convince him to go get it cut as he had that wedding coming up but he refused. It's been nearly 6 years. I had never cut hair before but for some reason I had gotten it in my head that I wanted to try and he let me experiment on him. It must have translated for us into some kind of trust/intimate thing. We've continued doing it for so long now that we were pondering which was more likely to come first, him dating another person, or him seeing another person for a haircut. He thought it was possible he might be more attached to the haircut exclusivity. Some time in the middle I tried cutting Herman's hair. He hates having anyone do it and it was not a pleasant experience for either of us. The next time he had it done, I happened to be with him and I got a bit emotional about it, so now I don't go along and he often does it while I'm out of town. Though to be honest I got over it after that first time. I'm glad its over quicker for him and I'm glad to not be responsible for it. Shortly after Jasper and I had the talk about haircuts I had a terrible dream that he showed up at my house and had clearly had a haircut which he had never mentioned to me. In the dream I was very upset and he acted totally confused, wondering what my problem was. We're talking about haircuts for crying out loud. I wrote him an email the next day reiterating that I encourage him to get a haircut when he needs/wants it but please let me know he intends to or at least that it happened. I imagine it will be a major adjustment for me when he is ready to have another relationship of either the hair cutting or the romantic kind. I don't think that means he shouldn't.

Society at large aside, I now recognize that my personal belief is that such things should be decided between the people involved in a relationship. The same way I feel a marriage contract should be decided by the people involved rather than any government agency. If I had been told at an early age that it was my job to determine the terms of my relationships rather than having the majority dictate what is right and wrong and what relationships are supposed to be, I think I would have been honest about my feelings instead of just feeling guilty and trying not to do "something wrong" which I clearly failed at.
 
Trust

A few weeks back I read this thread http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46770 and I truly appreciate these posters sharing their stories of rebuilding trust. Yet I thought, well we didn't go through any of that. That made me wonder if Herman trusts me at all, what if he just didn't bother with it? I got down on myself because I was afraid to ask him, and even more for the idea that I often run across posts like this that make me think I don't know how he feels because we haven't spent much time talking about it.

I knew we were going out to a remote cabin with no electricity on a Saturday night so I decided to wait to talk to him about some things like that I've been thinking about because I knew we'd be alone with no distractions.Then I still didn't do it and I got down on myself about that. During that time I realized I wasn't actually afraid of his answer. I already knew what it would be. So here it is

me: do you trust me?
Herman: Absolutely
me: do you think I'm honest?
Herman: Of course

I just didn't want to hear it. I asked Jasper and his answer was nearly the same. I am honest with them and I want them to trust me but it seems too easy or something. It doesn't sound normal and I am scared.

I kept thinking about things and then asking myself why do you want to talk about all these issues? We are so happy with each other. Like why should I start a big discussion about trust? He trusts me. I know he does. I don't think he is wrong to do so. I am honest with him. Settled right? Why should I dig at it just because it isn't what other people experienced?

That night at the cabin I had a dream that Jasper and Herman had surprised me and taken me to this place I had never heard of. It was like some kind of resort that was personalized just for me. I looked around and there were friends and family of mine there too. I said, "This is blowing my mind!" Then I started walking around and little things began to look strange. I tried to walk out the front door and was stopped by staff. I started looking for other ways to leave and realized the outside of the place was surrounded in prison like deterrents.

The two of them worked together to give me everything I ever wanted and I felt... suspicious and then trapped? Nice

The person who doesn't trust is me, and the best part is I did that to myself. Who the hell am I to ask for help doing all this processing so I can rebuild trust? They are happy, they have confidence in me and I want to drudge all this crap up because I'm afraid? Who am I to question their feelings? What is wrong with me?

I find myself wishing I could just start over but that isn't how I really feel. I wouldn't want to give up anything that has happened I just want to get over it.
 
More dreams

Had an odd dream this weekend. I was in high school and was feeling very shy. During a class discussion someone randomly said something sexual about me and I responded with something like "That's great I don't think anyone has ever said anything like that about me before so I'll take it" The teacher got really upset with me, I guess for having a positive response to it. I was feeling very ashamed about it but then she started giving me this bizarre guilt trip about how I would never find a man who wanted to marry me if I acted like that. Suddenly I realized something weird was going on because I knew in reality I did find a man to marry me. I started trying to explain to her, "Oh I'm sorry, you have no idea what you're talking about, I've been married for years!" The teacher was aghast. I must have found that amusing because I decided to hit her with the fact that I had another boyfriend for years too. She was even more appalled and started ranting about how I could never have a proper family to which I responded "Oh no we're not having kids!" She nearly fainted from the shock and then went on to say how terribly sad my life was going to be. I was just laughing and I knew I couldn't explain how I knew all this while I was still in high school because I knew I was in a dream now. I kept telling her I was proud of all that stuff and my life is great, and all we do is go out adventuring because I'm just not concerned with building whatever life she thought I needed. Then I woke up under the stars in the mountains, high fived my dog and went back to sleep.

I had a real lousy month and had been avoiding posting my rants. Thanks for the reminder things aren't too shabby self!

In contrast I had a conversation with Herman recently where he mentioned feeling like he was a disappointment to his parents. He's mentioned this before and I don't get it. Both of his brothers are still living at home in their 30s. The vast majority of his cousins had kids in their teens and are already divorced, broke and often unemployed, how could they really be disappointed in him? Ok so the rest of them bring their kids over and his parents adore them and that's great but they've known we weren't planning on having kids for many years. They were certainly the first members of the family to stop harassing me about it. They are traditional but ultimately very very kind and loving people. I know all they really want is for him to be happy. This was definitely the right choice for us. I know he agrees with that. Maybe its something else entirely and I focus on that because I feel responsible for that part. I can't seem to get him to peg what he should have done better. Maybe I just can't relate to that part of the parental relationship. I am thankful to my parents for raising me and all but I don't think I owe them to do something specific with my life. Oddly enough my dad usually makes a big deal of telling me he's proud of me when I talk to him and it feels pretty weird and hollow. I doubt he'd be so proud about my polyamorous relationship but I really don't care.

When my mom was deciding whether to file for divorce she once told me she felt like she would be admitting that everyone was right when people told them not to marry 34 or something years prior. 34 years later you're still worried someone might say I told you so? What kind of person would hold on to something that long, and think that the reasons they were cautioned 3 decades ago are in any way related to why they divorced? If they did, how could you value their opinion anyway? Nope I am not going to be that person. I'm not going to concern myself with those who would judge how I live.
 
Oh, your dream is hilarious. I like that you high-fived your dog when you woke up - that made me smile!

kkxvlv said:
In contrast I had a conversation with Herman recently where he mentioned feeling like he was a disappointment to his parents. He's mentioned this before and I don't get it. Both of his brothers are still living at home in their 30s. The vast majority of his cousins had kids in their teens and are already divorced, broke and often unemployed, how could they really be disappointed in him?
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My soon-to-be-ex-husband had similar feelings, which puzzled me, too. Out of a family of almost all civil servants, he got his Masters degree, pursued a professional career, and became very successful in it. Not that there is anything wrong with being a civil servant, but most of his family are rather unambitious and only got government jobs for the pension and benefits, not for any kind of career satisfaction or standing. Meanwhile, he was brilliant at what he did. He would also compare himself to his nephew, who was getting accolades for his work, which is in a creative field but doesn't need much education. He was amazed that the kid knew what he wanted to do with his life already, while my husband was a late bloomer, having earned his degrees and getting into his career while in his late 30s.

We talked about why he felt they were disappointed, and it was simply that they never really acknowledged him verbally. He had led a wild life for a long time, and was basically considered the smart-ass fuck-up in the family, until he cleaned up his act. Then they were hugely proud of him, but not real big on communicating. They would acknowledge him in other ways like asking for his advice on things or referring friends and relatives to him. He's a Leo and thrives on praise, so the fact that his parents didn't actually come out and give him acknowledgement in the way that he wanted it made him feel they were disappointed. Sorta like they had different Love Languages. Thankfully, just before his father died, he told my husband that he loved him and was proud of him. I think that did a lot to heal that part of him that always wanted his father's approval.
 
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More weddings

Jasper brought up if I would like to go to his sister's wedding. The two of them are very close. I was pleased he invited me but got the sense he thought it would be better if I didn't come. He said that it wouldn't be the best use (for us) of our visit time and funds. Weddings are high stakes drama and I am inclined to stay out of that and I think its kind of a bummer to have people at your wedding that you barely know. On the other hand I would like to be there with him for important stuff and the best use of visit things don't bother me because it is for important stuff. I think I would be sad if he took someone else. I guess I might also be sad if years from now I'm closer with his family and in retrospect it seems like I just didn't bother to go to this important thing or if they do think of me as his girlfriend and feel bad for him that I'm not around for things like this. I'm not trying to push anything on him but he seemed like he was trying to feel me out on the issue and I didn't know the right way to react. He remembers my lack of incorporation into his local life has been a sore spot for me in the past and I worry he is only mentioning it at all for my benefit. His family knew of me when we were "just friends" and have always known I am married. He has mentioned to me that at some point he did tell his immediate family we were in a relationship and if I remember correctly they were mostly just worried he'd get hurt. Knowing what I know of his mother and sister I'm sort of surprised he hasn't taken more grief about it. I attended last Christmas with his family which was the first time I'd met them and they were very nice and welcoming and it was only a normal amount of awkward. I'd hate for her wedding to be the day people start asking questions though. Her fiance's family is extremely conservative and I have a feeling she's going to have her hands full with some of her existing family members already and maybe doesn't need her brother's married girlfriend there on top of it. I don't know...
 
Just my two cents...

If you have any qualms about attending - then don't. I'm of the opinion that a wedding should be all about the people getting married. If you are NOT particularly close the the bride/groom and your presence might be any sort of distraction - I'd stay away, unless it is really super important TO HIM that you attend (which it doesn't sound like it is). Thank him for asking you then stick to more "family focused" events (holidays, etc.) until you are absolutely comfortable. (Then, again, I am not a big fan of attending other people's weddings in the first place - so I'd be looking for an "out" anyway.)

JaneQ
 
What a lousy day

I've already made one terrible decision this week so maybe now is not the best time but...

I've come to realize I want a deeper emotional connection to someone than either of these men are willing/capable of/desiring to give to me at this time. I know I am unlikely to find it elsewhere given that I'm not willing/capable of/desiring to put in the effort in building the other aspects of a relationship that would include that emotional connection nor would my current state be attractive to anyone new. That leaves me with the option of continuing to be unfulfilled and unhappy or perhaps working towards greater independence and self reliance. I am resistant that option because it feels so sad to me. I value those things but I have always exempted romantic relationships from those ideas. Of course that makes no sense. I call them partners because that is what I wanted. I will continue my relationships because I do value them and I am happy about what we share. I believe what we do have is worth having eventhough it doesn't meet my ideal. I have only ever thought of sucessful romantic relationships as being one set of things and emotionally fulfilling was certainly one of them. I'm not sure I am able to apply another point of view to my own life. I'm not sure I can be enough for myself either.
 
Updates on myself later I suppose

Wow things have changed around here, people leaving, relationships collapsing, long time polys going mono, people putting relationships on hold completely. One of the reasons I joined the forum was because it was so great to see it working for someone! Its getting a little scary around here.

My favorite thing about this forum now is how much I've learned about myself in thinking about advice I would give to others. I don't actually post too often but its so easy to rattle off what you think right away when it's someone else's problem. It's funny how much harder it is to see things that way when it is my own problem. I am so thankful for that insight into myself. I wish I had more time to collect that stuff here.

A big theme in my reactions over and over is don't live based in fear. In every other facet of life I hate the idea of sacrificing freedom for safety and it is so easy for me to recognize these sacrifices never actually result in safety. Of course I want to value freedom as highly in my relationships.

This has become so clear to me now. The other day a friend posted a picture of locks on a bridge in Paris and was explaining to someone else how couples put them there as a symbol of their love and my immediate reaction was EW! A lock is the LAST symbol of love I would choose. Another just posted a quote about cherishing moments and people in your life because you never know when it will be your last. Uhh.. how about cherishing them for reasons that aren't being afraid. You know like... because you enjoy life and you like those people! Not because you might lose it. Ugh!

The amount of insecurity problems raised here has taught me to realize no one is secure. It seems ridiculous how hard people rail against the insecurity caused by non-monogamy. If you actually bother to notice, monogamy doesn't offer security either. Nor does marriage. People can and will leave you at any moment for any reason. if you consider the love of another person a threat, monogamy is what dictates the likelihood of that "threat" resulting in your partner leaving you.

Polyamory is how the love of another person means I don't have to leave you.

I don't think that means polyamory provides security, nothing does that. I don't even think that makes polyamory better because it isn't important if you don't want to love more than one person. That is where I feel polyamory is a "wired" issue. I don't see it as believing it does or doesn't work, that it is right or wrong, better or worse, you just either feel it or you don't. It chose me, I chose to act on it. I still don't believe everyone is or everyone has the potential to be. I believe some people are monoamorous, choose monogamy for that, not for security.
 
Maybe Marriage Isn't For Me

Recently I clicked on this article titled "Marriage Isn't For Me" the teaser below it said something like "but wait, keep reading, it's not as bad as you think!" as if someone deciding they didn't want marriage had resulted in shock and horror.

The article was even worse. Basically the moral is people shouldn't get married for themselves, they should do it for the happiness of their spouse, future children, and family. This reminded me of Herman's claims that he is selfish.

I read a few posts by Marcus that have really stuck with me for some time now. One that really got me was a time he was questioning why he would want someone to spend time with him (or do anything for him) that she didn't want to do herself? Would you REALLY want someone to spend time with you because you asked or because you deserve it or because its fair or because she has some kind of commitment to you or for literally any other reason besides them wanting to spend time with you?

My mind wants to answer that question no. I don't want my husband to wake up and spend another day with me because he made a commitment to do so or even because he loves me and that means he wants ME to be happy. I want him to do it because that is what he wanted that day. Of course I am often afraid and want for security but I don't want it more than I want freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Yeah individual happiness. Herman always says, "if it doesn't make you happy don't do it."

So I read something like this article and I see the floweriness of it. Oh you make a decision to care for the happiness of someone else more than your own, and yes I agree maybe that should apply to your children. Thats why I don't have any. But I don't feel the need to surrender my life to anyone else. If that makes me a horrible person to most, I'm not sure I care. I understand how a lot of people could say that makes me incapable of love but I just don't see it that way.

I am much more comfortable with Herman's idea of caring for others. Unlike the guy in the article, he doesn't live to make me smile, he makes me smile because that brings him joy. Even when one gives love "selflessly" in bad times (again such as this article.) I prefer to see it as a personal choice made and not an act "of love" that one just does BECAUSE they love and that's what LOVE means. Yes I think love means you want to make someone else happy, but that is because doing so makes you happy. This is the very reason Herman calls himself selfish.

I think its a bummer that people live their lives having personal philosphy given to them and not figuring it out for themselves. I feel kinda bad it took me so long to understand his take on selfishness. I hope working on a personal philosphy of my own reminds me to live more often as the person I'd like to be.
 
Pity Party

Every Christmas seems a little more depressing to me but this one takes the cake. I want a place to throw a pity party for myself and I don't have anywhere else to say anything so awful, so here it is. 2 weeks ago I found my husband laying in the back yard surrounded in blood and vomit, awake but totally unaware of anything. To make a long story short it turns out he fell off a latter, and other than a wrist broken in 5 places, he's going to be fine.

The 24 hours before he started speaking again were my worst nightmare and then slowly over the next 2 weeks reality set in. I haven't been to a doctor appointment or filled a prescription in my adult life. I am completely unequipped for this. He and I are so introverted that we have been struggling greatly in the medical environment. In the hospital I noticed he was always telling the nurses he didn't hurt. When I pushed him for a pain number he said 4 of 10. After his wrist surgery he hurt "a little" and that was really an 8 of 10, it was a 10 and he was screaming before we managed to get across to someone that he needed medication. Shortly after that during our second night in the hospital I realized not only hadn't I slept, but I also hadn't had anything to drink since I found him.

His wrist isn't healing correctly and he will need a second surgery. It was nearly impossible to find a surgeon the week of Christmas and now we are crossing our fingers that it will happen on Tuesday the 30th or else we'll be paying a second coinsurance maximum for the year of 2015.

He won't be able to work for at least 3 months and will probably be fired anyway for stopping by the house that day. I don't know how I am going to carry all the regular bills, and the medical bills and take time off for his appointments.

We'd been travelling nearly every weekend this year and had spent so little time at home that we hadn't been keeping house or cooking for ourselves. Now I have to deal with all of that mess alone and help him with literally everything.

I know ultimately the situation is not that bad. He lived, his head is fine, he didn't break or injure anything else. He remembers who he is! We have pretty good insurance, I have a job. It just doesn't seem to make me feel any better.

I am exhausted and terrified. As the days have gone by I'm starting to get angry about the whole thing. What seems like a bizarre accident totally fits with Herman's personality. He gets some weird idea to do something and he has to do it right then, and heaven forbid you question the logic behind why it must be done this minute or the method and he will just throw his hands up and refuse to do anything. That is exactly why he went home in the middle of his work day to do it alone. He's just not very careful, I see it all the time and I'm really not surprised that eventually something went wrong and it makes me angry. He still hasn't learned either, he knows not to go up a latter alone now. That hasn't stopped him from trying to pour boiling water with his one left hand. Over the last 15 years I learned to ignore this behavior because it pissed me off and I didn't want to fight about it but now I've had enough. The pain medication is giving him this "whatever" attitude that I've grown very tired of as well. We can't find a surgeon to operate the week of christmas whatever, he might lose his job whatever, he never thought of christmas presents for his parents so now he wants me to go out shopping for them at the last minute no big deal, our old dog is looking like he is starting to suffer and will probably need to be put down soon whatever. I can tell its the meds but damn its annoying.

Jasper offered to come down as soon as it happened but I asked him to wait until we knew more. He has been very emotionally supportive for me but is dealing with a ton of issues at his work so I try to add as little additional stress as possible for him. We haven't had much time to talk but it has been dominated by football. This is the exact time of year I would be exhausted of football anyway but due to the current circumstances I could not give less of a fuck about all the scenarios he needs to happen so his team gets homefield advantage and therefore he can spend a whole crap ton of money going to a playoff game. Then a couple days ago he tells me he finally heard what "the band" is doing for new years and though he had no intention of going, NOW he wants to. So yeah, I doubt I will see him again before February. To add additional insult, he'll be coming to my state to see them and not me. I know he'd figure out how to come to me and help me with the house and stuff while Herman is recovering a second time but I can't ask him. We should have had plans for the holidays anyway but as usual they never got made and I am certain its somehow my fault despite me making it extremely clear that the ball was in his court long before the accident. I feel bad enough about competing for his attention with sports teams and rock bands, I certainly can't stomach the idea of being an obligation keeping him from having fun. Jasper has never really been in a long term relationship that involved sharing responsibilities with anyone else. Therefore he's never really understood "partnership" the way I would define it. I don't blame him for this but its been an ongoing issue that makes me unhappy which has been magnified by my having a real need for additional help for the first time. We've been through a lot of other crap with that issue this year. Little things like him deciding to buy a house over 1000 miles from me without feeling the need to discuss it with me at all.

I miss the sun and being outside. I won't get to see the snow this year, or ice skate, or soak in any of my favorite hot springs. I won't get to see any of my friends for New Years. I miss sugar a lot. I miss sex a lot. I miss getting take out. I miss Jasper and that is going to get a lot worse because we've just hit 4 weeks since I saw him which is the normal amount I can handle. I miss Christmas. I miss 2 armed hugs. I miss laying down for a few minutes after work. I miss someone else feeding the dogs so I don't have to smell their food. I miss riding in the passenger seat of the car.

I guess I've learned I'm a spoiled brat and that makes me feel like crap about myself.
 
kkxvlv said:
To make a long story short it turns out he fell off a latter, and other than a wrist broken in 5 places, he's going to be fine.
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BTDT. About 11 years ago, my husband fell off a ladder 3 days before Christmas. Actually, the ladder slipped out from beneath him (the driveway, was sloped and had oil on it :rolleyes:) and it shattered his wrist. Both my LITTLE kids were still on the roof when he fell. They are still freaked about climbing on the roof and they are 18/15 now. Luckily he didn't hit his head, but he did have to wait for me to get home and he drove himself to the ER. If I had seen it before he left, there's no way I would have let him drive himself.

He went into surgery on Christmas Eve and doped up on very strong pain meds all of Christmas Day. He was off work for 3 months and paying for the health insurance on one salary, which was brutal. When he got back to work, they had changed his position.

I completely understand the being angry and disappointed knowing the "accident" could have been avoided if he had just paid a little more attention to things.
 
Happy New Year

As I had already guessed, Herman was not scheduled for surgery on the 30th. The new surgeon didn't seem to think much more could be done for him. He ordered more scans. So I am guessing he'll decide sometime this week he does want to do surgery and we'll be behind 3 or 4 weeks of recovery time and another $5000. Hopefully he just won't need surgery though.

I couldn't stand Jasper being only 300 miles away and not seeing him for New Years. We've only spent one apart in the last 9 years and I really didn't think we'd see each other before february otherwise. I survived the first day and then one of our mutual friends posted a picture of them both on facebook and his smile was so beautiful and I just couldn't take it. So I tried to get as much advance things ready for Herman as I could and planned to leave him home for 36 hours while I drove there and back to see Jasper for 1 night.

When we woke up in the morning and went to my truck which was parked in a garage, I found it with 3 busted out windows. Nothing at all was taken. It didn't even look like they went through any of my clothes bag or camping stuff that was in there. Probably just someones idea of fun. So instead of spending a short day with Jasper, I spent the day filing reports and trying to tape the windows up enough to drive 300 miles home. The drive took 9 hours or something with stopping all the time and limited speed. I got home at 3 am and had to be up for Herman at 7. So I'm having a really awesome new year.

Everyone is upset and blaming themselves which sucks. Jasper finally realized on his own that it was sort of mean that he chose to go there instead of come to see us and put me in the position of going through all that (minus the car thing) or not seeing him at all. But thats what he does, he feels guilty after instead of thinking about it before hand. This exact thing went on a least a half dozen times during 2014. He chose to do something else, swore it wouldn't affect our visits and then it ALWAYS did and we'd fight about it. He said I should have told him I was upset about it. But actually I did tell him how upset I was that we didn't have plans for the holidays right after my last post. During that conversation as predicted he did blame me for us not having plans and he pushed me to come up there and wasn't nearly understanding enough about how much I had to go through to make that happen. I dropped the discussion instead of getting in a fight about it. Before I left yesterday he wanted to know what he could do for me and I told him we just need to fix the problem of scheduling visits that is making them not happen. He said he would do better but thats what he does. No real idea of what he will do to fix it. I guess he felt it was my job to just fight about it until something gets done. I'm just too tired for that.
 
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