"Maybe I shouldn't have..."

[DD123]

Hi all! Male mono here, I'm 22. My gf is poly, and she is 20. (Just to answer before it's asked.)

My gf just got back from visiting her family and her ex-bf in a city 5-6 hours away from where we both go to college. She told me before she left that she was going to sleep with her ex-bf. She told me of her weekend when she got back. Not only did she sleep with him, she also had a threeway with D and D's gf.

Before my question, I have to say that my gf agreed with Redpepper's statement: "She is not the sort of person that sees sex as a loving, bonding thing, but a fun sport."

She then tells me that it shocks her at how much of a "slut" she is. When she was presented the opportunity with D and his gf, she was excited and looking forward to it. She tells me that after the fact, she thinks that maybe she shouldn't have done that. I can't speak for her; I can only guess that maybe she feels guilt, remorse, and like she was people pleasing so that she would be liked by D and his gf.

I am looking for similar feelings/experience from poly people. What is too much? What is the line where the cost outweighs the benefit? Is she looking to boost her self-esteem by people pleasing? When is a "slut" too slutty?

 

[NeonKaos]

Do you think she could possibly be feeling "judged" by the "poly community"?

I've noticed a certain, I don't know a polite way to say this - disapproval on this forum and elsewhere toward people who say that they have had casual sex, do not regret it, and would do it again if they had the chance. It seems as though the correct answer to "how do you feel about casual sex?" is "I tried it and it felt so wrong that I will only have sex within the context of a "loving" relationship from now on."

Even though there are probably just as many if not more folks on this forum who enjoy casual sex and are not afraid to say so, I think that the term "polyamory" CAN connotate casual sex as something people do because they don't know any better.

For the record, I am one of the individuals who DID used to enjoy "casual sex", "sport-fucking", "friends with benefits", etc. and while there are certain incidents in which I would have been better off not taking part, overall I do NOT regret it, and would for the most part do it all over again. So, I say to your girlfriend, "Go girl", as long as you are up-front about it with each other, and practice safe-sex.

 

[DharmaBum23]

Do you think she could possibly be feeling judged by the "poly community"?

I've noticed a certain (I don't know a polite way to say this) disapproval on this forum and elsewhere toward people who say that they have had casual sex, do not regret it, and would do it again if they had the chance. It seems as though the correct answer to "How do you feel about casual sex?" is "I tried it and it felt so wrong that I will only have sex within the context of a 'loving' relationship from now on."

Even though there are probably just as many, if not more, folks on this forum who enjoy casual sex and are not afraid to say so, I think that the term "polyamory" CAN connotate casual sex as something people do because they don't know any better.

For the record, I am one of the individuals who DID used to enjoy "casual sex," "sport-fucking," "friends with benefits," etc., and while there are certain incidents in which I would have been better off not taking part, overall I do NOT regret it, and would for the most part do it all over again. So, I say to your girlfriend, "Go girl!" as long as you are up-front about it with each other, and practice safer sex.

I've noticed the same thing. I think (and this is only a hypothesis) that it has to do with the perception of poly as being deeply intertwined with sex (which is enough of a perception that I can think of at least one fairly popular podcast that has as its tagline, "It's not all about the sex.") and an attempt to disassociate poly with swinging.

She then tells me that it shocks her at how much of a "slut" she is. When she was presented the opportunity with D and his gf, she was excited and looking forward to it. She tells me that after the fact, she thinks that maybe she shouldn't have done it. I can't speak for her, I can only guess that maybe she feels guilt, remorse, and like she was people pleasing so that she would be liked by D and his gf.

I am looking for similar feelings/experience from poly people. What is too much? What is the line where the cost out-weighs the benefit? is she looking to boost her self-esteem by people pleasing? When is a "slut" too slutty?

A "slut" is too "slutty" when their actions have consequences that they do not want.

The above answer is vague by design. The "slut" in question is the only one who can make the final determination of whether he or she was too "slutty." However, the people surrounding them can give their input in regards to the consequences that apply to them.

 

[NeonKaos]

I've noticed the same thing. I think(and this is only a hypothesis) that it has to do with the perception of poly as being deeply intertwined with sex(which is enough of a perception that I can think of at least one fairly popular podcast that has as its tagline, "It's not all about the sex.") and an attempt to disassociate poly with swinging.

I would tend to agree that there is some basis in reality for that hypothesis.

 

[redpepper]

I personally don't see how this forum should be chalked up to being against casual sex. I think some people are, and that is fine. Those are their opinions. But to chalk up a whole forum to being against it, come on! That's a bit much.

Any opinion I have would be based on my own experiences and the results of them. For me, the whole casual sex thing is a "been there, done that" thing that I do not regret. I regret who I hurt along the way, including myself. There are times when casual sex is not the best idea because it could do more harm than the fun it can be.

I would suggest that in the case you are talking about, DD123, you had your feelings hurt. Perhaps she could've approached it differently. She was excited about this. She didn't tell you she was going to do it? It didn't just come up. It was arranged and she didn't tell you, it sounds like. She didn't tell you, by the sounds of it, because she thought you might object to her having a threesome. That, to me, is not responsible. Poly is based on responsible non-monogamy; it has its roots there. Use the poly term as you will to feeling loving in casual sex, but being irresponsible is just plain irresponsible, and perhaps why she feels like a slut in a negative sense. She chose to avoid being honest. I remember doing that, and it made me feel like a slut, too.

I love feeling like a slut, personally, in the fun yet dirty sense. But when I do, it's because I have done what I can to make sure that in the moment of slutness I have been empathetic, forthcoming with information on what I am about to do and don't go beyond the bounds that my gut makes me realize I will hurt someone. If I find myself going beyond what has been previously agreed upon by my loves, then it means I have to tell them and face the repercussions. To me, that isn't worth it, and the fucking can wait. There will always be another moment.

This is a learning process for her. I am glad you are being patient. It sounds like she could have a lot of fun. I hope next time she takes what she has learned and is more responsible in her approach to the ones that she wants to have sex with, and more responsible to you and your relationship.

 

[NeonKaos]

I personally don't see how this forum should be chalked up to being against casual sex.. I think some people are and that is fine, that is their thoughts and opinions. But to chalk up a whole forum to being against it, come on! That's a bit much.

Redpepper,

I said "ON THIS FORUM AND ELSEWHERE", not "the whole forum".

I've noticed a certain, I don't know a polite way to say this - disapproval on this forum and elsewhere toward people who say that they have had casual sex, do not regret it, and would do it again if they had the chance. It seems as though the correct answer to "how do you feel about casual sex?" is "I tried it and it felt so wrong that I will only have sex within the context of a "loving" relationship from now on."

I also said this:

Even though there are probably just as many if not more folks on this forum who enjoy casual sex and are not afraid to say so, I think that the term "polyamory" CAN connotate casual sex as something people do because they don't know any better.

Furthermore, I am part of this forum and I said:

For the record, I am one of the individuals who DID used to enjoy "casual sex", "sport-fucking", "friends with benefits", etc. and while there are certain incidents in which I would have been better off not taking part, overall I do NOT regret it, and would for the most part do it all over again.

I grow impatient when people respond to something that was never even said. I appreciate it when people read what was ACTUALLY said before answering (especially because I made a conscious effort to NOT GENERALIZE ABOUT THE ENTIRE FLIPPING FORUM). Reading things that were never even said into someone's posts is "a bit much".

That is all.

 

[NeonKaos]

I would suggest that in the case you are talking about DD123, you had your feelings hurt and perhaps she could of approached it differently. She was excited about it and didn't tell you she was going to? This didn't just come up, it was arranged and she didn't tell you it sounds like. She didn't tell you, by the sounds of it, because she thought you might object to her having a threesome. That to me is not responsible. Poly to me is based in responsible non-monogamy, it has it's roots there. Use the poly term as you will to feeling loving in casual sex, but being irresponsible is just plain irresponsible and perhaps why she feels like a slut in a negative sense. She chose to avoid being honest...

I think it could be the opposite phenomenon at work. Perhaps the DD123's girlfriend thought it would be no big deal to him if the ex's girlfriend joined them. It is also possible that DD123's girlfriend didn't tell him because he might have said "ok" but underneath she felt like she "should" be having a threesome with DD123 and a third person, instead of being the "third" person with two other people.

Keep in mind that I do not necessarily "believe" either of these scenarios. I'm just putting different spins on the situation.

DD123, you should get your girlfriend over here so the rest of us have her perspective on all this.

 

[redpepper]

Thanks for clarifying Y-girl, but respectfully, it can be read two ways. I can see both ways now. I wanted to be sure I was understanding. After all, this forum has been accused of many things before and in the spirit of, "Let's not go through that again," I thought it best to voice how what you said could be read.

Carry on...

I would love to hear from the girlfriend too, at this point.

 

[NeonKaos]

Thanks for clarifying ygirl, but respectfully, it can be read two ways. I can see both ways now.

...and one of those ways is WRONG.

My statements were NOT ambiguous. I said exactly what I meant, and i refuse to make it my problem if people are going to say I said shit that I never said.

 

[AutumnalTone]

It sounds to me as if she's trying to suss out what appropriate boundaries are, not only what she feels comfortable with, but what DD123 is comfortable with. I suspect she's trying to figure out if doing that sort of thing is going to work well within the relationship she has with DD123.

 

[DD123]

WOAH! Chill, please. Thank you for working out what was said, but please don't freak out.

Okay, I need to be honest and clarify a couple things. My gf's ex-bf is J, not D. D is another guy that lives in the same city as J. When we talked BEFORE she went away for the weekend she told me that she would sleep with J while she was there. She also said that she THOUGHT she MIGHT want to sleep with D. My mistake was to think of D as not really an option, because he was not definite. So I chose to ignore D because he was not a definite and because J was all I could comprehend at the time.

Do you think she could possibly be feeling "judged" by the "poly community"? ... I think that the term "polyamory" CAN connotate casual sex as something people do because they don't know any better.

I can not speak for her, but I do NOT think that she is feeling judged, because in the context of our conversation when she said, "Maybe I shouldnt have," her feelings were more internally based, rather than because of any external force, if that makes sense. Also, would you elaborate on the "not knowing any better"? In my head, that says to me that, "if I sleep with this person, I'll be loved and accepted, because I don't know how to socialize without sex."

Any opinion I have would be based on my own experiences and the results of them. For me, the whole casual sex thing is a "been there, done that" thing that I do not regret. I regret who I hurt along the way, including myself. There are times when casual sex is not the best idea because it could do more harm than the fun it can be.

Would you please be willing to give an example and say who was hurt and the results of those people getting hurt?

I would suggest that in the case you are talking about DD123, you had your feelings hurt. Perhaps she could've approached it differently. She was excited about it and didn't tell you she was going to do this. It didn't just come up; it was arranged and she didn't tell you, it sounds like. She didn't tell you, by the sounds of it, because she thought you might object to her having a threesome. Poly, is based on responsible non-monogamy. ... just plain irresponsible and perhaps why she feels like a slut in a negative sense. She chose to avoid being honest.

I think it could be the opposite phenomenon at work. Perhaps the DD123's girlfriend thought it would be no big deal to him if the ex's girlfriend joined them. It is also possible that DD123's girlfriend didn't tell him because he might have said "ok" but underneath she felt like she "should" be having a threesome with DD123 and a third person, instead of being the "third" person with two other people.

Like I said before, her x-bf (J) and D are two different people in the same city. I knew J was a definite. She did tell me about D, but I chose to disregard it because it was only a maybe. D's gf and the threeway was not discussed until after it happened. I think that was a spur of the moment kind of thing. This was NOT the first threeway she has had since we have been dating, so I can't really object to this one if I didn't object to the other. But in her threeways she has always been the third.

Yes, I am a bit jealous, because I want a threeway with my gf and a third. We have talked about it, but we can't come up with a third.

I will talk with my gf and make the suggestion that she come on and clarify. We do talk a lot about boundaries and what we are comfortable with.

 

[jkelly]

Sluttiness, slut-shaming and polyamory

She then tells me that it shocks her at how much of a "slut" she is. When she was presented the opportunity with D and his gf, she was excited and looking forward to it. She told me that, after the fact, she thought maybe she shouldn't have done that.

We have a lot of nonsense in our society around women's sexuality. It's easy to internalise that and start shaming yourself when you do something that you know society would judge you for.

I think that, if you can, the best thing for you to do here is to encourage her to not be ashamed of her sexuality in any way, and try to get to a place where she can feel good about her choices and connections with people (as long as they are safe, sane and consensual, of course).

When is a "slut" too slutty?

If one's sex life is having a negative impact on one's life outside the bedroom (like, neglecting the kids, or falling behind at work, or something), then it may be time to try to refocus one's attention. Otherwise, I'm not sure that there's any reason to believe that there is any such thing.

I personally don't see how this forum should be chalked up to being against casual sex. I think some people are and that is fine, those are their opinions. But to chalk up a whole forum to being against it, come on! That's a bit much

It ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

A forum moderator thinks that this message is important enough to attach to every post.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of having weird assumptions about my sexual appetite being made just because I'm poly. That's really annoying! I totally get why lots of poly-people get defensive about this, and want to emphasise that their relationships are loving, with a great deal of emotional depth and commitment. I do that, too!

But I don't think that we should just blow right past YGirl's observation. Our society really does engage in (sometimes horrific) slut-shaming, and, even in the very unlikely case that every influential voice in this forum is enthusiastically pro-sex, the way that poly-people defend the emotional intimacy of their relationships can start to sound like more of that shaming and dismissal. I think it would be valuable for everybody to simply be conscientious about how they phrase the distinction between polyamory and casual sex, assuming that they don't want to perpetuate that.

 

[rpcrazy]

I'm probably going to make a more meaningful post later, but to add to the wisdom of this thread, the answer is: casual sex is an altogether different topic and idea than polyamory. Fact. Some people are for casual, some people aren't. Such is life.

 

[DD123]

Oh lordy. Okay, this is the gf here. Where to start?

The "maybe I shouldn't have" thing-- I never actually said that; what I said was, "I feel weird about having done that," because I didn't know I had it in me. I didn't know I was that kind of person. And also because part of me is uncomfortable with that, in a very vague way, which I don't personally understand yet. I would definitely not undo what I did. I had a ton of fun and I'm learning from it. For example, I'm learning that I'm not fully comfortable sleeping with people I've just met, and I should think a bit before going with the very sexy flow. I also learned that if I smoke 6 cigarettes at a party I get a nasty cold. And I learned what a yeast infection smells like. All useful things.

The reason I didn't tell DD about the stuff with Boston D was-- I had no idea what was going to happen ahead of time, but more importantly, it wasn't his decision. My body, my friends, my fun, my consequences, my decision. He doesn't get a vote. Similarly, if he had told or asked me not to sleep with my ex up there, I would have completely ignored him, because my relationship with someone else is not something that DD gets a say in. I do, in fact, value that autonomy more than any relationship. I realize that may be a rather contentious statement-- "fightin' words", you might say-- so please remember that I'm a 19-year old bisexual/lesbian college student with codependency and intimacy issues, and this death-grip on my autonomy is simply what I think is appropriate for me.

Interestingly, I had a conversation this weekend with D in Boston about polyamory versus an open relationship that could be summed up by the statement: "It ain't poly if you're just fucking around," because polyamory is multiple LOVES, multiple emotionally-invested relationships.

I'm... not sure what else I should comment on. I'll field questions, I guess?

 

[redpepper]

In my time, when I was 19-20, a slut was a slut. Those words had a huge sting and I was taken advantage of for them. I had abandonment issues and would solve them by sleeping around. Of course, some of that was fun and a learning experience, too.

I learned in time, as I acted this out in later life, that the feeling I wake up with after having had sex with someone I don't care for and, even more importantly, doesn't care about me, is one of disdain for myself because there was no connection. And I feel more separated from myself.

To me, sex is a spiritual thing, even in its raunchiest moments. Someone putting their energy into me is a huge deal.

I realized that the after-feeling wasn't from society so much anymore, as things have changed significantly, but from my very soul rejecting my actions. There is no reason for me to sleep around any more. I have 4 lovers who deeply care about me and have invested in me. I have invested in them. I feel very fortunate that I now have a chance to experience sex in depths that go far and beyond the casual fucks I used to have that left me outside of my body. I am in my body, in my soul and connected in every way. It's incredibly beautiful.

I think it's great that you (speaking to the woman version of the OP) are exploring your sexuality and enjoying yourself and learning. So you should be. Everyone should find themselves in that way. I too said similar things to boyfriends, that I am my own person and can do what I like. I hurt some of them terribly with that, in that I didn't explain it and blew them off as controlling (not to say you are) and manipulative. I was really loved by several men and women and I chose sexual exploration over them. I'm sad about that, on one hand, but also needed that at the time. I wish I had been kinder, though. (I chose being abrasive and aggressive in my attitude.) I wish I did not lead them to believe that I loved them in the sense of what "they" needed. I put my version of love on them. I should've seen that and let them go find someone who could love them as they needed.

My guilt ended in cheating, because I knew I was hurting them and couldn't talk to them anymore about my needs. I went inside myself and then cheated. I caused so much pain in the guise of sexual freedom.

Good luck to you both. There's so much to experience. I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it. I'm glad you're talking.

I hope that, for what it's worth, my story helped.

 

[AutumnalTone]

But I don't think that we should just blow right past YGirl's observation. Our society really does engage in (sometimes horrific) slut-shaming, and, even in the very unlikely case that every influential voice in this forum is enthusiastically pro-sex, the way that poly- people defend the emotional intimacy of their relationships can start to sound like more of that shaming and dismissal. I think it would be valuable for everybody to simply be conscientious about how they phrase the distinction between polyamory and casual sex, assuming that they don't want to perpetuate that.

If you take my sig file as being anti-sex in any fashion, then you infer something far removed from what it says. I am in no fashion anti-sex, nor anti-casual sex. Indeed, I enjoy casual sex. My wife and I have an open relationship, in addition to being poly. My sig statement is concerned with nothing more than accuracy in description-- that poly is different from open and swinging-- and nothing more.

Anybody who infers anything different is bringing his or her own bias into the reading.

 

[DD123]

I too said similar things to boyfriends, that I am my own person and can do what I like. I hurt some of them terribly with that, in that I didn't explain it and blew them off as controlling (not to say you are) and manipulative. I was really loved by several men and women and I chose sexual exploration over them. I'm sad about that on one hand but also needed that at the time. I wish I had been kinder though (I chose being abrasive and aggression in my attitude) and not lead them to believe that I loved them in the sense of what "they" needed. I put my version of love on them and should've seen that and let them go and find someone who could love them as they needed.

This is the gf of the OP again. I'm curious about this, because I've had a lot of discussions concerning respecting other people's feelings about my actions. Where is the line between respecting and simply giving in?

See, I grew up with poly, and I honestly see sex as a way of communicating or communing with someone, like a hug. It can certainly be much more intimate and real, but it can also be just a very enjoyable different kind of hug. How do I respect the fact that other people see it differently? How do I respect their boundaries without feeling caged in?

This wasn't such a big deal with my last boyfriend. But since then I have developed some casually sexual relationships-- with my ex, with my roommate and her boyfriend, with my Boston crowd. Sex is an important part of how I relate to them. (And there are probably some deeper psychological reasons for that, but regardless, I don't think it's completely unhealthy.) So, if I'm in a more serious relationship with someone who's bothered by that, it feels like there's no right answer. What do you think?

 

[AutumnalTone]

That's where the fine art of negotiation comes into play. The greatest outcome possible from negotiation is that everybody walks away feeling good about getting what they need.

You've already stated that your freedom to do as you please is more important to you than any other person, so I'm not certain that it really matters whether you negotiate much in relationships or not. You've already established that no relationship is anywhere near as valuable to you as it may be to the other person(s) involved.

 

[jkelly]

If I'm in a more serious relationship with someone who's bothered by that, it feels like there's no right answer.

You could choose to date only people who aren't bothered by that. Or you could accept that you're going to bother your partner from time to time. We all do, and I think that there's sometimes a weird emphasis on jealousy as something that must be avoided at all costs, as compared to all other kinds of bother.

Or you could use all the information and resources out there about working through jealousy and put that stuff to use in your relationship.

 

[saudade]

A rant on the complications of defining poly

I actually have to reply to this in two separate posts. Sorry, my ideas on each are too big to fit in one post. (MODS, I vote for sorting it into two threads. Your call on whether that's necessary.)

First, on the defining poly business:

There is a tendency to define polyamory as open AND sexual AND loving AND consensual relationships. Technically, this definition excludes polyfidelity (depending on one's wording), and relationships that haven't resulted in sex, and relationships that are pushing on mainstream boundaries of love (potentially including BDSM). It also includes relationships that fit these definitions due to societal pressure (Mormon polygamists, for example), though Wikipedia's poly article insists that polygamy and polyamory are separate.

Personally, I have no problem with a clinically precise label, so long as we acknowledge that real life is rarely so straightforward. For example: one of my life partners wants us to go polyfi. I'm not having sex with my girlfriend. My friend with benefits says "I know," when I tell him I love him, rather than replying in kind. Everyone but me in my constellation who is involved directly with more than one person (with full consent of all parties and usually a lot of love and sex, mind you) isn't sure the poly label applies to them. What does that even mean?

I'll admit, I've gotten a laugh out of AT's tag before. I feel like I know what she means by it: if you're swinging (i.e., "fucking around"), you're not poly. The pun in "just fucking around" implies both that you're having casual sex and you're wasting your time. Thing is, I'd argue that that's more than "accuracy in description." I feel comfortable saying that that pun is there to be read into, and insisting that it has no other meaning is skirting the issue.

Here's where I get irritated:

Casual sex is an altogether different topic and idea than polyamory. Fact.

Fact: RPC, I suspect you do not personally hold the answer. Poly and casual sex share some common elements, and real people who are going outside the mainstream on the monogamy front are likely to confront both. What do we do when the line gets blurry?

What about the Kerista commune, where the term compersion was invented, and thirty-something people were all married, having sex with opposite-sex partners on a schedule? I'd call that married casual sex myself, having at least fifteen partners and no choice about which one to sleep with-- not much different from key parties. (Yes, I'm being controversial on that stance, and it's deliberate.)

How about my beloved friend with benefits? I've been his confidante for years, and now he's my live-in lover, but he chooses not to say 'I love you.' If he's in our communal kitchen baking brownies (with ingredients we bought together on a shopping trip) before he and I get alone time, but he claims it's not about love, and I'm okay with that, how do we draw that line?

If we can't talk openly and honestly and politely on here about how to navigate this stuff, I'm not honestly sure where we all ought to go... So I say there's nothing wrong with being asked about our word choices on the internet, as a reminder to be courteous and open-minded--- There's backspace and delete and preview post for a reason.