Miserable, Doing it wrong. No idea what to do next

YouAreHere suggested some no contact rules with the aim of obtaining a level head and making sound long term decisions.
a month of no contact with the GF may be a really good idea (I've read 40 days, actually).
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I suspect this is not an idea you'd take us up on, but there is merit in it and I can see why those who do it feel better and less conflicted. After all, GF's not going anywhere, she doesn't* want drama. You're in this for the long haul so you might as well take your time with it. A period of no contact designed to reduce the hormones and clear the thinking can help put everyone on the same page. Your wife has to work through a world-shattering insecurity that is manifesting as jealousy, and you have to work through a hormonal chemically-induced high manifesting as NRE. NRE and jealousy are pulling you and your wife in different directions. A period of no contact reduces the jealousy and NRE, allowing you and your wife to be able to see eye to eye again. It may also help with her security to know that you'd do this for her. Kind of, a consolation prize for having to do poly if you like. Just my thoughts, with a personal guarantee (my personal experience along many others I've read who have done the same who say) that after the first very difficult 2 or 3 weeks, both you and wife will be happier and GF will still be there and all 3 of you will have an increased mutual respect for each other for having gone through something hard, and sacrificed for each other.
 
Shaya said:
YouAreHere suggested some no contact rules with the aim of obtaining a level head and making sound long term decisions.


I suspect this is not an idea you'd take us up on, but there is merit in it and I can see why those who do it feel better and less conflicted. After all, GF's not going anywhere, she doesn't* want drama. You're in this for the long haul so you might as well take your time with it. A period of no contact designed to reduce the hormones and clear the thinking can help put everyone on the same page. Your wife has to work through a world-shattering insecurity that is manifesting as jealousy, and you have to work through a hormonal chemically-induced high manifesting as NRE. NRE and jealousy are pulling you and your wife in different directions. A period of no contact reduces the jealousy and NRE, allowing you and your wife to be able to see eye to eye again. It may also help with her security to know that you'd do this for her. Kind of, a consolation prize for having to do poly if you like. Just my thoughts, with a personal guarantee (my personal experience along many others I've read who have done the same who say) that after the first very difficult 2 or 3 weeks, both you and wife will be happier and GF will still be there and all 3 of you will have an increased mutual respect for each other for having gone through something hard, and sacrificed for each other.
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Sigh. Timing. Bad timing is the freaking BANE of my existence. "I suspect this is not an idea you'd take us up on". Yeah. This is an idea that I would've AT LEAST looked seriously at several weeks ago. Not so much now.

Separation from the GF terrified me. I did it anyway. *IF* we'd done no contact for 30-40 days, I could probably have survived that. (There's the massive question of what then though). As it was we did separation. my wife determined that "no contact" wasn't a requirement just not physically seeing each other, and of course I leapt at that. but there was no specified time and that was far too difficult to deal with. A specified time would've made things a lot more bearable.

Now however........ I'm not willing to switch back again. Not I only do I not want to have 30-40 days of no contact...... it feels like jumping all over the place. The "current" is something it APPEARS we can all live with. It's not great for anyone, but it's....... happening and currently no-ones falling apart, so I'm very loathe to change it (less than a week in), particularly for yet something else that may or may not work. We did change the separation roughly a week in, but that's because it simply wasn't working. This........ might be. I want to give this some time, see if it works and the ways in which it does and doesn't work
 
I'm not sure why you are still here, when everything that is suggested, according to you, won't work or is something you have tried without success.

From your first post, it was suggested that there be a period of NO contact. That lasted what, a week? And you couldn't handle it? People are separated all the time by circumstance but the world, ever so thoughtlessly, keeps spinning.

Your wife is only acquiesing to this new arrangement because she is grasping. Can you HONESTLY say, as I have mentioned before, that much of the time spent with your wife isn't spent on counting down the hours to the next Thursday morning?

You're an adult. If the bond between you and your GF is so weak that it will tragically wither away and die in the time span of 40 days, then I think you have a very important answer as to the strength of this relationship. No, none of us are guaranteed tomorrow, but it's not like you are being deployed into combat and have to do everything rightfuckingnow. If you went to your wife and told her, from your heart, you are taking a 40 day break so you have time to show her how much she means to you, and to give yourself a chance to look at the situation with a clearer head, you may be surprised. If the wife tells you you don't need to do that? Do it anyway. Both for yourself and to prove to her that you DO love her.

Just too much drama, and you seem to like creating it. A married father of four should use his time in less destructive ways.
 
I'm still here for multiple reasons. I'm still finding this very helpful. There are several different views here, and they are different again from the views and opinions I have got and are still getting outside the forum.

Yes, I'm not doing a bunch of things that have been suggested, some because I've tried them, some because I don't think they would work. I still want to know them. I'm not asking for someone to just tell me what to do. Even if I WAS, there would be no way to do all the different things anyway. But I still want to know them.

No one here has any obligation to engage with me or give me any of their time. If anyone is feeling frustrated that I don't appear to be following advice, by all means stop engaging.

The 40 days is excellent advice, and something that I probably should've done, but I didn't have that advice at an appropriate time (imo) to follow it, and I still have concerns about it (like what happens on day 41). I'm not following it NOW, because I'm on day TWO of a new compromise. 40 days MAY have been a better idea, but I'm currently doing something different, that is jot compatible with the 40 day approach, and CHANGING that on day 2 is. ...... inconsistent at best.
 
We seem to have hit midway mark on my 30 page prediction made on page 3 when you found me rude.

So far nothing we have said has proved actionable useful for you. You also insist that this place is helping you. I suppose the question to reflect on is helping you do what.

This thread will probably end up as an educational reference on the power of a mind to see only what it wants to see.
 
Remnant said:
The 40 days is excellent advice, and something that I probably should've done, but I didn't have that advice at an appropriate time (imo) to follow it, and I still have concerns about it (like what happens on day 41). I'm not following it NOW, because I'm on day TWO of a new compromise. 40 days MAY have been a better idea, but I'm currently doing something different, that is jot compatible with the 40 day approach, and CHANGING that on day 2 is. ...... inconsistent at best.
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While I understand not wanting to do 40days no contact (which is essentially a breakup), if that idea left you wondering, you could entertain it for longer than a few minutes or hours. No need to do changes now. Talk to your gf next week, see what her opinion is. Offer i to your wife if you do feel ready. I'm not saying 'do it' - you have a compromise (which nobody likes), just ... give it a second thought. The inconsistency argument is weak if you decide that a no contact period has a better chance of succeding than what you're doing.

To add, I disagree with others that you've rejected all ideas. It's a few day, ideas need to be around for a while before you can act on them.
 
Remnant, for the third time, how much of the time you spend with your wife is focused on her and your relationship, and how much of that time is spent on daydreaming about your GF and wishing Thursday would hurry up and get here already?

If you are WITH your wife, but not being PRESENT for her, this compromise you cooked up just can't work. Your wife is super-attuned to you right now and can see right through it. Six days is not enough time for all the crazy in your body to settle down (OMG! It's only MONDAY! When will Thursday be here???), and let your rational mind start calling the shots.

You seem to like giving the impression that you are looking at the situation intellectually, but it is clear that you are not. If I had let my brain help dictate my behavior rather than my emotions, my life would have turned out much differently. You can't let hormones decide the future (or lack thereof) of your marriage.
 
Remnant said:
Sigh. Timing. Bad timing is the freaking BANE of my existence. "I suspect this is not an idea you'd take us up on". Yeah. This is an idea that I would've AT LEAST looked seriously at several weeks ago. Not so much now.

Separation from the GF terrified me. I did it anyway. *IF* we'd done no contact for 30-40 days, I could probably have survived that. (There's the massive question of what then though). As it was we did separation. my wife determined that "no contact" wasn't a requirement just not physically seeing each other, and of course I leapt at that. but there was no specified time and that was far too difficult to deal with. A specified time would've made things a lot more bearable.

Now however........ I'm not willing to switch back again. Not I only do I not want to have 30-40 days of no contact...... it feels like jumping all over the place. The "current" is something it APPEARS we can all live with. It's not great for anyone, but it's....... happening and currently no-ones falling apart, so I'm very loathe to change it (less than a week in), particularly for yet something else that may or may not work. We did change the separation roughly a week in, but that's because it simply wasn't working. This........ might be. I want to give this some time, see if it works and the ways in which it does and doesn't work
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"Terrified"? "Could probably have survived"?
It seems to me that you frame the new relationship as vital to your very existence, but pretty much take the marriage for granted. If you truly believe the new relationship needs constant care and feeding, and you don't understand that a relationship far more central to many more lives is directly suffering from your lack of centering it, then I'm gonna call you on it and say you are already divorced in your own mind. You're just angling to make it someone else's fault -- the capricious gods of love, or your "unreasonable" wife. "I tried," you will say.

"The massive question of what then" ("day 41" elsewhere)
The point is to take the time and focus on the marriage. Maybe try on some "what thens" academically, but don't be trying to solve the problem of later as much as re-commit to the marriage. Identify the underlying and most vital needs of your wife, children, and you within the family, and throw yourselves into the work of (1) meeting those needs and (2) planning how they could continue to be met if the family structure were to change. As it is, you won't have worry beyond the next week, and you'll get a good idea of ... nothing useful, as no one likes this setup and it will change when it "doesn't work" and someone will get blamed, but you will have "tried."

You don't have the will to for save your marriage. Good luck convincing anyone beyond yourself that you've tried.
 
powerpuffgrl1969 said:
Remnant, for the third time, how much of the time you spend with your wife is focused on her and your relationship, and how much of that time is spent on daydreaming about your GF and wishing Thursday would hurry up and get here already?

If you are WITH your wife, but not being PRESENT for her, this compromise you cooked up just can't work. Your wife is super-attuned to you right now and can see right through it. Six days is not enough time for all the crazy in your body to settle down (OMG! It's only MONDAY! When will Thursday be here???), and let your rational mind start calling the shots.

You seem to like giving the impression that you are looking at the situation intellectually, but it is clear that you are not. If I had let my brain help dictate my behavior rather than my emotions, my life would have turned out much differently. You can't let hormones decide the future (or lack thereof) of your marriage.
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With the caveat that we are now only on day 3..... The vast majority of it. Definitely all of the dedicated us time. I'll have to let you know after Monday if I had "OMG! It's only MONDAY! When will Thursday be here???"
 
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SlowPoly said:
"Terrified"? "Could probably have survived"?
It seems to me that you frame the new relationship as vital to your very existence, but pretty much take the marriage for granted. If you truly believe the new relationship needs constant care and feeding, and you don't understand that a relationship far more central to many more lives is directly suffering from your lack of centering it, then I'm gonna call you on it and say you are already divorced in your own mind. You're just angling to make it someone else's fault -- the capricious gods of love, or your "unreasonable" wife. "I tried," you will say.

"The massive question of what then" ("day 41" elsewhere)
The point is to take the time and focus on the marriage. Maybe try on some "what thens" academically, but don't be trying to solve the problem of later as much as re-commit to the marriage. Identify the underlying and most vital needs of your wife, children, and you within the family, and throw yourselves into the work of (1) meeting those needs and (2) planning how they could continue to be met if the family structure were to change. As it is, you won't have worry beyond the next week, and you'll get a good idea of ... nothing useful, as no one likes this setup and it will change when it "doesn't work" and someone will get blamed, but you will have "tried."

You don't have the will to for save your marriage. Good luck convincing anyone beyond yourself that you've tried.
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Some validity there, but not a lot. I definitely don't take my marriage for granted. And *IF* my marriage does not survive then it will have been no one's fault but my own. Pretty much regardless of how we get there.

Fortunately I'm not looking to convince anyone else. So that's basically a dead issue.

There.... is vast difference between "needs constant care and feeding" and "can be completely ignored for over a month with no consequences."

"don't understand that a relationship far more central to many more lives is directly suffering from your lack of centering it" Oh, I definitely understand this, but understanding it is very different to resolving it.
 
For those who wonder, "If you won't follow our advice, why are you here?"

I can tell you why one does such a thing, because I have done it in the past.

1. To vent.
2. To process.
3. To get several perspectives in case one does resonate as partially or completely helpful.
4. To solidify one's own position by arguing it. If you can defend your view, it feels more certain in your mind, even if everyone else disagrees.
5. To seek validation (whether it happens or not.)
6. To get new language to use in thinking about issues, and more tools for the toolbox in thinking and talking about this sort of stuff.

There is plenty that a person can get out of conducting a forum conversation, that goes way beyond asking for advice.

But as much as I agree with others that Remnant does seem very determined to make the GF a higher priority than the wife and home...and I do judge that at least a bit...I also judge the wife somewhat. Only because he brought this up, what...3 months ago? And she is still at this point completely unwilling to have a rational conversation about the various possibilities. She's still in this sort of freakout mode of denial that any of this is happening, and Remnant has made it pretty clear that one way or another...this poly thing is going down. You cannot un-explode the poly bomb by just wishing it out of existence. I would think that reasonably a few months in, a person might be prepared to hold a conversation.

But then too if both partners are coming at this from a "It must by MY WAY!" place and neither will budge, it just does not bode well for a graceful transition of any kind, into anything. It points straight at a nasty mess that ruins lives. Likely all of the lives involved, in the long run. That sucks.

So all I've been able to think of is:
To the wife: "Sorry, but the shape of your world HAS changed and cannot go back. You cannot force it to go back. You need to face reality before reality knocks you on your ass."

To Remnant: "Stop chomping at the bit for your happily ever after. Being compassionate, in this situation, and responsible, means being patient and accepting that in the end, you might not get what you presently think you need. And you might not be ENTITLED to it. You gotta clean up the mess at home somehow and figure out how to not wreck your wife and kids before you start asking, 'But what about me?' I think your brain knows this, but your heart is having a tough time with it."
 
Spork, I COMPLETELY agree with you that the wife needs to have a reality check and start getting her ducks in a row. She needs to fight to get herself in a financial position so that, if she stays, it's because she CHOOSES to, not because she HAS to. I feel bad for her, but no one is going to "rescue" her from this situation.

Denial is a terrible thing.
 
powerpuffgrl1969 said:
Spork, I COMPLETELY agree with you that the wife needs to have a reality check and start getting her ducks in a row. She needs to fight to get herself in a financial position so that, if she stays, it's because she CHOOSES to, not because she HAS to. I feel bad for her, but no one is going to "rescue" her from this situation.

Denial is a terrible thing.
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The bolded words, I have used enough times in the past in discussing my own and others' situations, that I actually (no shit) sit here wondering if you and I know one another in real life somehow.

lol

But otherwise, yes. I am actually a bit concerned about that whole "if I get a job or get educated or take steps to be independent, it will make it ok for my marriage to end, therefore if I don't, then my marriage won't end" line of thinking. I mean, if Remnant here is describing that accurately as her perspective...these mental gymnastics are a desperate grasp at control of a situation she ultimately can NOT control. Just like threatening self harm if someone won't do what you want them to...you can't hold yourself hostage to force your partner's choices. Eventually, they just leave and then you're doubly fucked (and not in a fun way!)
 
I have to disagree with beating on the wife. She is vulnerable with low emotional reserves, 4 children, no financial income, monogamous mindset, 20 year marriage, being told (presumably) by family and friends (presumably) that she should dump the cheater and she's using all her energy to fight back and say "no" to that advice.

Asking her to work on herself on top of all of this is reasonable, expecting her to be able to do it is not. Setting a high bar as the minimum standard for her behaviour can be counterproductive. Remant, I feel your wife is likely to respond better to encouragement and empathy rather than to a stick that says "you need to change" and I feel that your last few posts show that you see that.

Monogamous partners recovering from the betrayal of an affair of this magnitude often taken 1-3 years. The first few months will often be punctuated by random outbursts, sobbing fits, irrational anger and sleepless nights. That's just human. Not being critical or dismissive of your wife. Most monogamous couples will be there to support each other and say "I love you" and "You are important to me" and "I'm sorry", they will also have a support network for them of friends and family who sometimes respect your choice to stay together. The choice you and your wife are taking now is likely to not be respected by any of your friends or family and you lose a support system. Your wife is handicapped in her recovery because she lacks these two important supports - you and her friends/family.

It's no walk in the park for you either, Remnant. There are whole studies done (from a monogamous bias) on the ambivalence of people in your position when forced to choose between wife and affair partner. Ambivalence is probably not a term you've ever attributed to yourself, but the research calls it ambivalence because you're stuck in your choice between wife or affair partner. It's just a term. I wouldn't worry about the wording. But if you want to understand yourself better, there's some good research into our psychology when we're in this stage, what we're going through, what helps and what doesn't. You're not the first person in the world to try to make things work by keeping both women. Whole books have been written on the subject. I'd give you links if I could, but my own exploration of this topic was from books sorry.

In summary, affair recovery is hard. Polyamory is hard. Doing both at the same time is thought to be impossible, but I was stubborn and went searching, finding a few counterexamples which I shared in post 2 of this thread. I don't think any of these examples lasted for longer than a year, but I could be wrong. You said the odds didn't look good, but it's always possible to beat the odds. It will be hard though and might require proportionally more work or more sacrifice on your part because out of you and your wife, I'd say you're more emotionally stable right now.

Suggestions for time management will still be things like rest, and spending time with your significant others. Other uses for time would be support like counsellors or us if you find that useful. Other uses for time may include looking up resources on what you're going through, perhaps the so-called ambivalence stage of affair recovery if that interests you. Dunno. Just a thought. Likewise, resources on affair recovery from the hurting spouse's perspective might give empathy or insight into what other people in your wife's shoes have been capable of doing at this stage of their recovery. I feel poly resources may be useful in the future, but are probably less useful now.

I'm happy to keep rambling on your thread if you're finding any of it useful, even if it's only useful once in a while.

Cheers,
Shaya.
 
Not so certain his wife isn't dealing with it. He isn't describing her in any way that would allow an assessment on that.

Being at home or asocial doesn't necessarily mean not having adapt/exit strategies - in fact, there is a lot more information on adapt/exit strategies available online than in socializing with "well wishers" who appear to be on a rescue mission while clueless of what she actually wants/needs. If she is an introvert, she may not have the energy for social interaction - which is a separate issue. Everything from organizing support to strategies can be planned without leaving the home and if the wife was pragmatic enough to choose to stay when given an ultimatum or to try to cope with the relationship even in "controlling" ways, she is hardly "not thinking" for herself.

Remnant is fairly out of the ordinary in bringing a divorce up before he is allegedly done resolving a conflict. Most people will get a good idea that the issue is approaching failure or has failed before bringing it up. Most women, particularly in marriages where they are insecure will not bring up the subject till they are actually ready to walk out and this is often recommended if they don't have power in the marriage. The wife currently seems to be in the mood to attempt to adapt, or buying herself time to get her plans in place. Not quite the same as not being in touch with reality over not wanting to meet a few people that too as described by someone who is the cause of her worries.

We seem to have taken Remnant's "unacceptable levels of control" description at face value. While he may find it unacceptable, and without subscribing to the control mindset, there's hardly a shortage of people who have rules for their partner right here - tell first, no kissing, no progressing till issues solved, one penis policy... Whether healthy or not may be debatable, but it hardly falls outside a normal "mono trying to poly" response - that too within a fairly unrealistic timeframe of expectation AND with intro to poly being an affair - within two months she was actually judged and disallowed any control - so these descriptions are from before that - from the immediate shocked phase.

To me the wife does not sound out of touch with reality. She's living on ground zero.

She may need to prepare better, but we don't really have any information on what exit strategies she has or is putting in place or isn't thinking of at all. There just isn't enough information to judge.

Frankly, I find the wife's response to be wiser - she's weathering out the NRE. This is NOT the time for drastic life changes.
 
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Oh, I'm definitely not saying that wife should be making any decisions right now, unless she simply finds this behavior unacceptable. Many mono spouses would not tolerate the behavior that has already happened, and that is their right.

There is no part of me that is placing blame on the wife, or believing that is not in need of emotional support. What I DO know is that life is unfair, and empathy and compassion from Remnant, while certainly well deserved, might not be given in a way that helps her right now.

I simply believe that the wife would be far better off is she gathered up her resources to put in her a situation where she could actually CHOOSE (and I don't mean between crocodiles and a shit sandwich). I know very well that we are getting only one side of the story. I hope that, behind the scenes, while Remnant is longing for the next Thursday morning to roll around, the wife is gathering all the resources she can to determine the rest of HER life.
 
I hope so too. I know first hand that it is possible if one wants to do it. I was (and am) a home-bound mom with disabled child. It took me 3 years (mostly to get over the fear of caring for a disabled child as a single mother) but my exit was almost completely planned on the internet. From legal advice, to assistance, to property shortlisting, to asking help from friends - both financial and physical. So it is not impossible, and if she is an introvert who "curls up with a tablet", chances are that she has at least found information she needs and feels ready to handle.

Or at least I hope so.
 
I liked a previous poster's comment about NRE being intoxication.

I have some experience of law in NZ and wanted to point out that there is very little stopping you and your wife from making financial agreements relating to separation that would be more generous to her than what courts would order. http://www.cab.org.nz/vat/fp/r/pages/relationshipproperty.aspx

Lots of great advice here. A couple more thoughts from me:

Imagine you didn't have a GF and you were just exploring the idea of polyamory with your wife in theory. Things would be a lot different for your wife, wouldn't they? This is the healthy path that was not taken. It may help to consider how much better this option could have been for both of you. And how far your current situation is from being the ideal scenario. It may give you more perspective on how very challenging this is and how many adjustments you may need to allow for the incredibly unbalanced way this has been initiated.

Second, as many have said, success at this transition from mono to poly will only work if you go slow. I'd say you will need an outlet that isn't your GF or your wife for feelings of frustration etc around having to be patient and going slowly. Perhaps save these vents for private journals, internet forums or individual counselling.
 
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