Mixed signals. Now what?

[mumbles]

Hi all,

Mumbles here, checking in. Since I last posted, I've been really working on improving my personal relationships in all aspects of my life. It's been difficult, but positive. People have noticed, so I hear, and that's definitely a good thing.

That all being said, I'm still floundering around, and I just don't know what to do.

A quick recap; Kiara (my wife) and I talked about opening up our marriage; she was enthusiastic, followed by apprehensive, which is pretty reasonable. That weekend I went out with my crush, Kelsey, and had a good time, until I ruined everything with my big mouth. We were both drunk and got a ride to her place from the bar. I had planned on staying there. (She has an extra bed). Anyway, that night, against my drunken better judgement, I told her a lot about how I felt about her. It's still unclear to me exactly how she reacted to it. As far as I can tell, the fact that I'm married was the big hang-up. But that aside, I just can't tell if there's anything there, or if I'm just seeing things.

I apologized for acting out of line the next day, and she accepted, noting that she wasn't upset, or anything, and that she didn't really think I owed her an apology.

Anyway, I expected things to be weird after that, but they haven't been. We sort of both agreed to pretend like that night didn't happen. But I think her perspective is that I was trying to cheat, even though I wasn't. Sadly, I don't know how well my drunken self conveyed this notion. Poorly, I imagine. I know she said "things would be different [if I weren't married]," but I don't know if that was just figurative pat on the back for a hypothetical she figures is impossible, or what.

I just can't figure it out, guys. We were at a Halloween party last weekend, and nothing was weird. In fact, we flirted and touched more than we ever have, a fair amount in front of Kiara, who has actually been in favor of hanging out with Kelsey and me a lot. I expected Kelsey to act really differently, like try to ignore me, but she wasn't doing that at all. K&K danced together (with me) a fair amount, which was a blast and a half, but again, really confusing.

I guess my question is to the girls out there who have become gfs of married guys...

I know the details are too sparse to really weigh in, but does it sound like Kelsey has any feelings for me? I had some limited opportunity to talk to her about it, but we were both so drunk and awkward that the conversation really wasn't that helpful. Why would she keep our relationship so flirty and touchy AFTER I talked to her, if she'd been weirded out, or put off?

Part of me wishes I could just make this go away. I've thought if I could just make her hate me somehow, I wouldn't have to worry about it anymore, but I know I can't bring myself to do anything like that.

On the other hand, Kiara has been really supportive and almost... enthusiastic (?) about it. I had a talk with her sometime after the drunk Friday, which was in some respects a rough talk. It wasn't really a 'cheating' conversation, but a spiritual cousin, I suppose. But it ended really well, and I think she's pretty warm to the idea now, especially since her needs are getting met so much more effectively since we talked. It's an amazing show of security on Kiara's part to be engaged in becoming closer friends with Kelsey. It almost feels like we're courting her together, which I suppose isn't totally surprising.

I also think that's the only way this will ever work, is if she gets close enough to both of us to realize "it's okay," or whatever, but that's going to take time, and I'm just impatient I guess.

For the record, after a lot of reflection, yes, I am interested in an emotional connection with Kelsey. That's what I really hunger for. If she could get past the stigma, I could even see it working really well for her. She's pretty busy with work a lot of the time, but could really use someone to be there for her.

Anyway, for the time being, I'm going to just keep trying to be as good a friend as I can, and let Kiara help things along, if they're there to help.

I've noticed that I call Kelsey "babe" pretty regularly now. It's just become my pet name for her, even in front of Kiara, which is kinda funny. (Kiara will always be Bear.) Kiara doesn't seem to mind at all, which is really cool.

So what I have is an incredibly awesome, loving, supportive wife, who is at the very least interested/curious about this, and a perplexing relationship with a girl I have a hard time understanding, who is constantly sending me mixed signals... *big sigh*

Dunno what I'm asking for here, and I know I'm particularly rambly, but as usual, it just feels good to share. Any comments or ideas or insight, especially from "secondary" gfs, would be really appreciated. Thanks!

 

[redpepper]

Anyway, for the time being I'm going to just keep trying to be as good a friend as I can, and let Kiara help things along, if they're there to help.

This. You decided already that you want to be a good friend to Kelsey, and to connect with her over and above any kind of official relationship, so keep at it. Maybe try not to overthink it all? It sounds like things are good, and if you ever find a moment where you are not drunk to tell her so, take it. There isn't a need to have descriptions of what we are to each other, or what we do, necessarily. Unless it helps to be able to talk to her and others about what it means, and then you get a whole set of preconceived rules that go along with that description/definition.

Yeah... wait it out and see where you end up.

 

[mumbles]

Thanks, Redpepper. I was just kind of worked up and needed to vent it out, I think.

That being said... Kelsey just lied to me tonight. I don't handle being lied to very well. It's, uh, going to make things a lot 'easier' for me now.

 

[diane]

Talk to her

I think Kelsey likes you. Well, I suggest you talk to her and find out her feelings for you. She would not risk flirting with you in your wife's presence if she did not like you. Ask her whether she is okay with polyamory, and if she is okay with it, then go ahead and talk to your Kiara about it. If Kelsey is not okay with poly, then keep it at a friendship level. Don't even flirt.

I am also new to poly, and my bf is married. He opened up to his wife, which was so hurtful to her, but she was so understanding to at least try the poly relationship. I have had a few challenges. But life is an experience, so let's see. Maybe we can be happy.

If you have more questions for me, please ask.

 

[mumbles]

Yeah, honestly, after tonight, I think I gave her too much credit. If you treat people second class, you can expect to be treated second class. Grrr...

 

[redpepper]

What happened, mumbles?

 

[mumbles]

I just caught her in a really poorly crafted and totally unnecessary lie about plans. It was just really low and uncalled for. Why can't people just be honest?

 

[SNeacail]

U caught her in a really poorly crafted and totally unnecessary lie about plans.., Why can't people just be honest?

My husband does this to avoid conflict. If he thinks I will explode or be hurt (very likely), then he will hem and haw around a subject, or just flat-out lie about it to avoid my reaction. 19 years and I'm still telling him that my reaction will be 100 times worse when I find out that he lied to me than any reaction to the actual situation. Not only will I be more angry, I will also assume there is more that he is not telling me that is 10 times worse than anything he could think of, and trying to convince me otherwise will be much harder than telling me the truth in the first place.

Talk to her about this. Why did she think it necessary to lie to you?

 

[eklctc]

Yeah. Regardless of the reason why people do it, people who lie to supposedly avoid the 'whatever the result may be for being honest' should give themselves and/or the receiver of the information more credit, instead of rationalizing being a liar. I respect honest, communicative people, because they show me respect by allowing themselves to share honestly and provide me with the opportunity to come to my own, informed decision about a situation.

I, personally, am an honest person. Yes, I have paid in various ways (some physically abrasive) for that honesty. Not many can handle honesty, but I can't handle knowing I have intentionally held back requested information, or left out details I know they are really inquiring about. That eats at me.

Mumbles, honesty and open communication (at whatever level works for the parties involved) is very important in the creation and sustenance of these relationships, so this situation is good 'food for thought' as you continue your journey.

 

[redpepper]

Honesty is good, but its also important how it's delivered. Being careful how you use words, and maybe suggesting what words we need to hear next time can be really helpful. I like to hear people's honesty, but I don't like to feel battered afterwards. I also like to know what people want to hear, if I have come across abrasively, or not conducted myself well, in their eyes.

I think it's important to be patient and keep things positive and compassionate. So often there seems to be this one-upping that people do. Kind of this idea of "See? You fucked up and should know better." Well, really, we are all learning constantly, and if people aren't compassionate and honest about how they feel at the same time, then how else do we move forward, having learned?

On the same token, we also need to be open to receiving feedback as much as being brave enough to take a risk and give it.

 

[mumbles]

I dunno. I've been told she's a bad friend by pretty much everyone that knows her. Everyone's written her off. She's just the village bike, in people's eyes. I hated to hear that, because I've always seen her as a lot more. But now I think I get what people were saying.

I don't know if I was just blinded, or what, but I really wanted to have a connection with her. But it's almost like there's nothing there past the surface. I can tell you she doesn't care about me and that was just confirmed in my mind. Maybe that's what really hurts, or maybe I just hate getting lied to.

So not worth it.

 

[eklctc]

@redpepper- True to an extent, but that all progresses with your experience with the people in question. That is why it pays to not only exercise great communication, but to also pay close attention to how the people in your life interact with other people, and deliver sensitive information, and how they interact with you in these circumstances, because it gives you great insight into how honest they really are when expressing their true feelings, and how much sugar they add to their statements, and shows you the best way to approach them in these matters in the beginning.

As time passes, however, we all grow and learn in communication with each other, which includes learning how each person communicates best, how honest they really want you to be, what works and doesn't work for them, etc. As long as your actions/words are not seated in negativity, you should be able to speak freely.

Ultimately, as I say all the time, it's all about perspective. You cannot help the way someone reacts to your honesty. You can only help them see it clearly, show that it was done with good intent, and work through the kinks, i.e., find out how you can approach/express it better next time.

Personally, I lived many years of my life pacifying others' emotions, not speaking honestly about my thoughts and feelings about something, sugarcoating my responses to appease the feelings of others. What begins to happen (depending on what it is and how long you have been holding it in) is, those feelings and thoughts that are withheld for the benefit of others become a burden within you, and eventually start to make you sick (emotionally, spiritually, physically). So I guess the most important thing is to find someone who is communicatively compatible, or capable of being so.

That is the issue with our relationships, in general, now. People are too concerned with the politics of wording. I have to have complete honesty, but I am a person who is very self-reflective, very rarely offended (if ever), and do my best to not internalize or take much personally. Even when I do experience duress, I live in the belief that our emotions are a direct reflection of self, so, by seeking the basis of my emotional reaction within me, I will find that it never has much to do with any external source and, thereby, have no reason to be sensitive about someone's expression. That's just me, though. Probably a lot of the reason why I remain a free agent. It's okay. I'll just keep being completely honest (sometimes brutally) with myself.

 

[redpepper]

@eklctc, I agree, but as we are talking of a possible partner in this woman Mumbles is speaking of, I think there are some differences in expectation and assumption on how communication should go in order to have a successful relationship. When I spoke in my last post, I was referring to the possibility that he may reach a deeper and more connected a relationship. That is only worth investing in with some people.

I don't bother telling co-workers, for example, how I wish to receive feedback. I select very carefully what battle/conversation/issue I wish to participate in. I don't expect them to invest in me like I do my partners, in terms of deep connected communication, but I do expect to be respected and relied on as a team member and all the communication that comes with that. I model how I want to be treated, and if someone were to unknowingly hurt my feelings or be negative towards me, then I would tell them I am hurt and why. That's it.

Partners are a different story for me. I invest in something different with them, something deeper and more vulnerable. I think it goes from the "politics of words," as you call it. I like that. Just being completely open and honest, and also ourselves; vulnerable. I think one needs to use the politics to create one's own way of being within that.

When PN and I took communication courses, we were choppy, and sounded contrived, and just plain not ourselves in our practice of skills. But that was the starting point. The point was to move past that to something that sounded like us. We have reached that, although we have a long way to go, and it's all changing, as life seems to be about change.

I guess I think if mumbles wants a relationship with Kelsey, the first hurdle (as it is with most budding relationships) is communicating when someone has fucked it up. It can be a make or break thing in a relationship. Mumbles sounds like he has decided she is not worth it, and that is fine. But if he chose to find out what she is made of, and whether or not she is partner-worthy, I would suggest the approach I wrote above. Why wait? Why skirt around stuff and expect her to get it? Honesty is about being honest; just coming out and saying, "You hurt me. Could this have gone down this way? Could it go down that way next time?" Saying what is deep inside of us, with vulnerability and compassion for the listener. At least that is what "non-violent communication" techniques have taught me. They have served me very well (when I've chosen to use them ).