Need advice
- Thread starter Greenjade
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BoringGuy
Banned
Well he made his decision last night. He can't and won't choose. So he is leaving both of us.I don't get it. Everyone hurts with that choice.
Let's just see how long this lasts. We'll wait with you. Keep us updated, please.
I told him it was not an option to give up everything just because he can't choose. I told him he was staying until he's decided. I know I will struggle, but I would rather have him for as long as I can until he makes his decision. If it is her, so be it. At least I know I tried and didn't just let him walk away from everything.
BoringGuy
Banned
What a manipulator. He's got you right where he wants you. I wonder if he's using the same routine on her, or if he's got some other game going. Sounds like he likes being the object of a tug of war between two women. And you are playing right into it.
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BoringGuy
Banned
So he's shown himself to be spineless, on top of everything else, and you still insist on keeping him around on the off-chance that this shitty coward might choose you?
Best start planning what you're wearing to that wedding.
Hello, I think I love you.
Natja
New member
By not allowing him to leave, you actually hinder his chances of realising what he actually wants. In other words, he needs separation to see clearly. You are making this much harder for all of you in the long run. You would have been much better off letting him go. He might have come right back with a vision for the future, but now you have just dragged it out longer and possibly made it less likely he will choose you.
Natja
New member
I am sorry you are upset, Greenjade. But if it is one thing I know, if someone says they are going to leave, you need to let them. You would be better off going straight back to him now and saying, 'You said you needed to leave. I stopped you out of fear, but I realise now that you might need this time to get your head straight, and that is the most important thing,' and tell him to leave ASAP.
Never, ever stop someone from leaving when they say they are. Needy isn't attractive. Acting like a martyr is not attractive. Mentally confining someone when they need space is not attractive. Telling him to go if he feels he needs to creates insecurity with him, and it means that he would realise that you are not a sure thing that he can pick up and drop whenever he feels like it.
I don't want to kick you when you are down, but stopping him was a bad, bad move, ok? Trust me on that. (((hugs)))
Never, ever stop someone from leaving when they say they are. Needy isn't attractive. Acting like a martyr is not attractive. Mentally confining someone when they need space is not attractive. Telling him to go if he feels he needs to creates insecurity with him, and it means that he would realise that you are not a sure thing that he can pick up and drop whenever he feels like it.
I don't want to kick you when you are down, but stopping him was a bad, bad move, ok? Trust me on that. (((hugs)))
Natja
New member
That is what he told you, Jade. That does not mean it is what it is.
Oh, come on! You are not that naive, surely? No man is going to leave to permanently be alone. Everyone on this thread saw through that story.
He is leaving to give himself an opportunity to be free from pressure, mostly from you, to be honest, and it is only 'with' that freedom can he realise that the grass is not greener. You have halted that, and now he won't get a chance to learn that lesson.
And you can welcome countless more days, weeks or months with this stress and strain. How on earth is that preferable?
Oh, come on! You are not that naive, surely? No man is going to leave to permanently be alone. Everyone on this thread saw through that story.
He is leaving to give himself an opportunity to be free from pressure, mostly from you, to be honest, and it is only 'with' that freedom can he realise that the grass is not greener. You have halted that, and now he won't get a chance to learn that lesson.
And you can welcome countless more days, weeks or months with this stress and strain. How on earth is that preferable?
Emm
Stealth Mod
The bit about not choosing either of you also means he gets to say, "Oh-- woe is me! Here I am all alone! See how much they've hurt me? But I love both of them too much to hurt them!" until everyone gives him exactly what he wants, so he will stop making puppy-dog eyes at them. He gets to completely ignore the fact that his behaviour is, indeed, hurting everyone he claims to care for.
Well, you finally put your foot down, and asked him to make up his mind and choose. That part was good. I am glad you did that, stopped the wishy-washy behavior on that point, at least.
When he gave his answer of "Not you, Greenjade" you wobbled. It does not matter if it is to go off to be alone to think, be alone permanently, or go off to be with her. How it affects you either way, it is "Not you (right now), Greenjade."
It sounds like that answer wigged you out a bit. I know that's hard to digest and accept. It was not the answer you hoped for.
But in having him hang around some more, be aware that you could be in the bargaining place with that choice. ("If he isn't picking her, I'd rather he be with me, until he decides whom to be with.")
Your suffering might not end there. You might find yourself wondering when he's going to bail on you next, since he's bailed once already.
On his end, he may grow resentful that he made a choice for himself and then reneged on it. He could direct that resentment at your head rather than at his own decision-making process and wishy-washy behavior.
Would a 3-6 month trial separation for both of you to collect your emotions again really be so bad? You could then make life-changing decisions from cooler heads, not all het up, whether the decision is to break apart, or do the work of repairing, so you can stay together.
You could benefit perhaps from knowing you can make it on your own -- that being alone isn't so bad.
He could benefit perhaps from knowing what it is like to miss you. When he says and does things that hurt you, and takes you for granted, because "he knows our relationship works" -- that's not cool.
I am concerned that when you say this, you really are talking about yourself:
I could be wrong, but I think that could be reframed as:
"I am scared for him to walk away from us, because I will end up feeling like I am now, but alone."
Is that where you are at emotionally now?
You mention living in an isolated way since moving to new town, not socializing much, not having friends other than through the kids, no lifelong friends to unload on, and not able to talk to your mom.
You mention your willingness to do things you "would rather do than lose him and be alone". I get that it is scary to think of a future that is different than the future you originally planned for your life. But remember, you felt this too:
In the alphabet soup of emotions you might be feeling day to day, or even hour to hour, you could go toward the choices that bring you calm feelings, not choices that bring you more worked-up crazy stuff. Feelings sometimes make no sense, but sometimes serve as a guide. You could listen to your feelings.
Asking him to stay from fear of being alone, while initially relieving because you are not yet alone, is still not him picking "Be with Greenjade" from the beginning. That's him picking "Not Greenjade," and then "Letting myself be persuaded to stay."
I cannot know his intentions with choosing to leave and then staying, but it could be things like:
The "ugh factor" increases down my list, but even the mildest one, him being a wishy-washy decision maker, is still not "I pick Greenjade because I love her!"
You deserve to be with someone who JOYFULLY AND ENTHUSIASTICALLY wants to be with you, even if their other relationships in the poly network are wobbling or ending, not someone who is lukewarm about it. You do not exist to be the back-up plan.
Later, some doubts could start creeping back in. "He bailed on me once already. When will he bail again?" The relief of the initial, "Yay, I'm not alone!" will wear off, and change to more worry, anxiety, suffering.
Please be careful with yourself. You could accept your short-term health is just full of suckage. Fine. So be it. Hard times right now. Focus on your long-term health later down the road. What are the best things to do preserve your long-term health?
Okay, so he's chosen "break up with both." Since on your end that involves a lot of legalities, I would encourage a trial separation, to make sure that's the correct life-changing choice. Him bein NRE-drunk could be taken into consideration. So try it on. Be separated, but not yet divorced.
As hard as it is, both of you would get a chance to look at this situation with cooler heads, so you both (especially you) can take a better assessment.
Don't be afraid to shine a light in dark corners. You've already done so much and come so far in putting your foot down and asking, so you can know where you stand. You know where you are at now. That's progress, at least, even if it is not yummy tasting right now, nor what you hoped for.
Continue to process. Just do the job in front of you, looking out for your own best long-term health (mental, emotional, physical, spiritual), with or without him. Maybe you want to book a counselor to help you sort it all out.
Hang in there.
When he gave his answer of "Not you, Greenjade" you wobbled. It does not matter if it is to go off to be alone to think, be alone permanently, or go off to be with her. How it affects you either way, it is "Not you (right now), Greenjade."
It sounds like that answer wigged you out a bit. I know that's hard to digest and accept. It was not the answer you hoped for.
But in having him hang around some more, be aware that you could be in the bargaining place with that choice. ("If he isn't picking her, I'd rather he be with me, until he decides whom to be with.")
Your suffering might not end there. You might find yourself wondering when he's going to bail on you next, since he's bailed once already.
On his end, he may grow resentful that he made a choice for himself and then reneged on it. He could direct that resentment at your head rather than at his own decision-making process and wishy-washy behavior.
Would a 3-6 month trial separation for both of you to collect your emotions again really be so bad? You could then make life-changing decisions from cooler heads, not all het up, whether the decision is to break apart, or do the work of repairing, so you can stay together.
You could benefit perhaps from knowing you can make it on your own -- that being alone isn't so bad.
He could benefit perhaps from knowing what it is like to miss you. When he says and does things that hurt you, and takes you for granted, because "he knows our relationship works" -- that's not cool.
I am concerned that when you say this, you really are talking about yourself:
I could be wrong, but I think that could be reframed as:
"I am scared for him to walk away from us, because I will end up feeling like I am now, but alone."
Is that where you are at emotionally now?
You mention living in an isolated way since moving to new town, not socializing much, not having friends other than through the kids, no lifelong friends to unload on, and not able to talk to your mom.
You mention your willingness to do things you "would rather do than lose him and be alone". I get that it is scary to think of a future that is different than the future you originally planned for your life. But remember, you felt this too:
In the alphabet soup of emotions you might be feeling day to day, or even hour to hour, you could go toward the choices that bring you calm feelings, not choices that bring you more worked-up crazy stuff. Feelings sometimes make no sense, but sometimes serve as a guide. You could listen to your feelings.
Asking him to stay from fear of being alone, while initially relieving because you are not yet alone, is still not him picking "Be with Greenjade" from the beginning.
That's him picking "Not Greenjade," and then "Letting myself be persuaded to stay."I cannot know his intentions with choosing to leave and then staying, but it could be things like:
- He's a wishy-washy guy who cannot make decisions, and he's going to ping-pong before making a break.
- He wants to make it so you are the one to leave, so he can tell himself that he's really "a nice guy" that got a raw deal.
- He's enjoying all the drama/attention; feeling "wanted" strokes his ego.
- He's testing your "loyalty" to see which new kind of rudeness he can push for next, since you have accepted and tolerated this much so far.
- Or, something else I cannot see.
The "ugh factor" increases down my list, but even the mildest one, him being a wishy-washy decision maker, is still not "I pick Greenjade because I love her!"
You deserve to be with someone who JOYFULLY AND ENTHUSIASTICALLY wants to be with you, even if their other relationships in the poly network are wobbling or ending, not someone who is lukewarm about it. You do not exist to be the back-up plan.
Later, some doubts could start creeping back in. "He bailed on me once already. When will he bail again?" The relief of the initial, "Yay, I'm not alone!" will wear off, and change to more worry, anxiety, suffering.
Please be careful with yourself. You could accept your short-term health is just full of suckage. Fine. So be it. Hard times right now. Focus on your long-term health later down the road. What are the best things to do preserve your long-term health?
Okay, so he's chosen "break up with both." Since on your end that involves a lot of legalities, I would encourage a trial separation, to make sure that's the correct life-changing choice. Him bein NRE-drunk could be taken into consideration. So try it on. Be separated, but not yet divorced.
As hard as it is, both of you would get a chance to look at this situation with cooler heads, so you both (especially you) can take a better assessment.
Don't be afraid to shine a light in dark corners. You've already done so much and come so far in putting your foot down and asking, so you can know where you stand. You know where you are at now. That's progress, at least, even if it is not yummy tasting right now, nor what you hoped for.
Continue to process. Just do the job in front of you, looking out for your own best long-term health (mental, emotional, physical, spiritual), with or without him. Maybe you want to book a counselor to help you sort it all out.
Hang in there.
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Actually what I am saying is more along the lines of...
I think Greenjade could get herself and her kids out of more potential harm's way, even if it feels sucky to have to be doing it while hurting. Love him all you want, but from a place of safety. Emotional stuff can be sorted out later, in good time. But for material safety, you might need to make a move now, to protect your ability to have continued access to money, shelter, food, etc.
Put your own oxygen mask on first.
I came back to post this practical suggestion to Greenjade for her consideration:
It you share a bank account, you could go to your bank, withdraw half from your shared account, and put in your own name RIGHT NOW, in a new account. Seriously. Protect yourself and your kids. Get your half of the money secured. NOW. Even if you have to take the day off work. You are dealing with enough shenanigans now, without adding a "money access problem" on top.
Whatever weird thing he's got going on, whether he's a normally sensible person who is temporarily confused by NRE; a wishy-washy dude who wants to leave, but is too much of a weenie to just break up properly and decently; or a manipulator playing games; or whatever, well, he's not the person posting.
He's being weird and less than loving in his behavior right now toward Greenjade and his own children, regardless of why that is. Why ask why? That just hamster-wheels things. It's easier to accept his chess move. He wants to break up with both of you.
Make your next chess move based on that new information. He wants to break up with both? All right. Move it forward then. He can move out so the kids are not disturbed in their home. Take protective steps to make sure the kids are not disturbed in their home stability too, doing things like securing your finances.
Greenjade, if he's a nice guy, he'll get that he just told you he wants to break up. Believe him, and move it forward with the bank business. You'd have to split the money anyway. Why would he be surprised you are taking care of bank biz? He doesn't want to be believed at his word?
If he's an ass, you are not letting yourself be distracted by your pain and failing to protect yourself and the kids from this classic ass move. If you share all your money jointly, he could go to the bank and shut down all the joint financial accounts, cutting you off from money and legal aid while you are sad. Then the bills roll around, and when you go to look at the bank account, whoa! You get another nasty shock. Ugh.
I'm sure that's painful to think about. "Why would he do something like that to me if he loves me?" Don't ask why. Just make a move so it's not even an issue, and you and the kids are ok for money in this difficult time. It's hard enough without that extra problem on top, right?
The next square to visit is destined to be one of these --
Both choices serve your interests and move it towards improving your long-term health.
I know your short-term emotional health just sucks right now. It is what it is. Sigh. I'm so sorry. All I can suggest is to get enough sleep, eat healthy, keep the routine the same for the kids, and plod onward toward long-term health resolution.
And please, take care of your money ASAP, for your short-term financial health, so your mental health doesn't have that extra load on it. If your couple/married financial arrangements are leaving you vulnerable to a "dump and run," it's best you sort it out TODAY. There's kids and your well-being to think of here.
Maybe in the end you come back together and do the work of marriage repair. But that is speaking to a possible future that is not yet here or certain. Take care of your TODAY right now.
Don't be left up shit creek without a paddle, Greenjade. You and your kids need to be able to eat in the short term, and pay for things, even as your sort out your plan for how to be dealing with the long-term stuff and whatever the future is to be for yourself.
"Love yourself first. You are responsible for your own well-being. You are responsible for your own emergency preparedness. Don't be afraid to be alone, if that's what it takes to be safe right now from more incoming shenanigans. Give yourself the gift of a a separate quiet place in which to think. But don't take forever."
I think Greenjade could get herself and her kids out of more potential harm's way, even if it feels sucky to have to be doing it while hurting. Love him all you want, but from a place of safety. Emotional stuff can be sorted out later, in good time. But for material safety, you might need to make a move now, to protect your ability to have continued access to money, shelter, food, etc.
Put your own oxygen mask on first.
I came back to post this practical suggestion to Greenjade for her consideration:
It you share a bank account, you could go to your bank, withdraw half from your shared account, and put in your own name RIGHT NOW, in a new account. Seriously. Protect yourself and your kids. Get your half of the money secured. NOW. Even if you have to take the day off work. You are dealing with enough shenanigans now, without adding a "money access problem" on top.
Whatever weird thing he's got going on, whether he's a normally sensible person who is temporarily confused by NRE; a wishy-washy dude who wants to leave, but is too much of a weenie to just break up properly and decently; or a manipulator playing games; or whatever, well, he's not the person posting.
He's being weird and less than loving in his behavior right now toward Greenjade and his own children, regardless of why that is. Why ask why? That just hamster-wheels things. It's easier to accept his chess move. He wants to break up with both of you.
Make your next chess move based on that new information. He wants to break up with both? All right. Move it forward then. He can move out so the kids are not disturbed in their home. Take protective steps to make sure the kids are not disturbed in their home stability too, doing things like securing your finances.
Greenjade, if he's a nice guy, he'll get that he just told you he wants to break up. Believe him, and move it forward with the bank business. You'd have to split the money anyway. Why would he be surprised you are taking care of bank biz? He doesn't want to be believed at his word?
If he's an ass, you are not letting yourself be distracted by your pain and failing to protect yourself and the kids from this classic ass move. If you share all your money jointly, he could go to the bank and shut down all the joint financial accounts, cutting you off from money and legal aid while you are sad. Then the bills roll around, and when you go to look at the bank account, whoa! You get another nasty shock. Ugh.
I'm sure that's painful to think about. "Why would he do something like that to me if he loves me?" Don't ask why. Just make a move so it's not even an issue, and you and the kids are ok for money in this difficult time. It's hard enough without that extra problem on top, right?
The next square to visit is destined to be one of these --
- Temporarily separated-- go with a trial separation, to see what new information can be learned. Try life without him on to see if you like that better than this place you are in. If you're both going for that, you have to split the money anyway to run two households.
- Divorce. No need to try a separation to find out if you are just done, because you know it already. In terms of divorce, it's better for you to be the PETITIONER than the RESPONDENT. And you'll have to split the money anyway as you do the work to sever the legal marital bond.
Both choices serve your interests and move it towards improving your long-term health.
I know your short-term emotional health just sucks right now. It is what it is. Sigh. I'm so sorry.
All I can suggest is to get enough sleep, eat healthy, keep the routine the same for the kids, and plod onward toward long-term health resolution.And please, take care of your money ASAP, for your short-term financial health, so your mental health doesn't have that extra load on it. If your couple/married financial arrangements are leaving you vulnerable to a "dump and run," it's best you sort it out TODAY. There's kids and your well-being to think of here.
Maybe in the end you come back together and do the work of marriage repair. But that is speaking to a possible future that is not yet here or certain. Take care of your TODAY right now.
Don't be left up shit creek without a paddle, Greenjade. You and your kids need to be able to eat in the short term, and pay for things, even as your sort out your plan for how to be dealing with the long-term stuff and whatever the future is to be for yourself.
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BoringGuy
Banned
All this talk about protecting yourself financially is valuable. If you take nothing else to heart, please take this advice seriously. I have a story to tell:
Once upon a time, my spouse's younger sister had a baby, then married a guy from the UK, moved over there, he adopted her baby and they had another one. The younger child now about 2 or 3 years old, they were getting ready to move back to the US. SIL came back here first with the kids, and the Mr. was to follow shortly thereafter. Instead, he withdrew all their money, closed all the accounts, and filed for divorce. SIL has lived unhappily ever since. The End.
This was not even a non-monogamous relationship. It could happen to you.
Once upon a time, my spouse's younger sister had a baby, then married a guy from the UK, moved over there, he adopted her baby and they had another one. The younger child now about 2 or 3 years old, they were getting ready to move back to the US. SIL came back here first with the kids, and the Mr. was to follow shortly thereafter. Instead, he withdrew all their money, closed all the accounts, and filed for divorce. SIL has lived unhappily ever since. The End.
This was not even a non-monogamous relationship. It could happen to you.
I am not hearing:
"I would never take any money or assets or anything like that. I have plenty of money in my own personal account already. We do not own anything jointly. So I feel no need to rush to split joint things. I can afford to lose every cent we own in joint [or] we own nothing in joint. I can still make out ok financially with or without him, even if he does go weirder on me. Thanks for the concern, but I'm ok in that department."
Are you able to financially afford skipping tending to your joint accounts (if you have some), and take the risk of being shut out of them, because you are well off in other accounts, with money in your own name? You are ok in that department?
I point to a recent verbal agreement he reneged on, the agreement to end the romantic relationship with the GF, and just be friends. So please forgive me, but I just don't see that you believing him with a new verbal agreement on how he will behave in a divorce situation is trustworthy right now. His word to you lately on how be promises to behave in situations has been shaky. Last time it was you on the line in romance. This time it is you AND the kids on the line in your daily living expense needs now that he has told you he wants to break up.
If you do not do this to protect yourself and your kids to have continued access to money in this hard time -- is that YOU working it through and doing the best you can for your kids? For it to become "We are doing the best for our kids," he has to put in every effort and you have to put in every effort. You can't control what he does/does not do. You can control what you choose to do.
It is very hard on you emotionally right now. I get that. But do not let your soft feelings for him cloud the view to securing the your and the kids' short-term financial stability. If you are not financially secure through other means, you are more than just emotionally vulnerable right now. You are financially vulnerable, isolated in town without serious friends or family to lean on. Maybe you can't even buy plane tickets for all of you to go crash with your mother, wherever she may be, and live on as you put life back together for yourself?
I assume you are a working mom. Your position is even more shaky right now if you are a SAHM.
I do not say these things be hurtful or to add to your burdens, hon. I say these things to you for you to consider how to best extricate yourself from a shaky position in a very vulnerable time.
I am not suggesting you take anything away like a thief in the night. I am suggesting you move what is ALREADY yours into a separate account under your name. Put him as the beneficiary in the event of your death, if you like. Just NOT as the joint checking holder who can make daily transactions.
Then go home and tell him, "Well, since you want to break up, today I went to the bank and started the process. I moved X to my name only. You and the children are listed as beneficiaries. But the account holder is just me. I left the rest in joint checking for you to use. You can close out the whole account and set up your own separate thing at your leisure, or I can go in with you on X date to take my name off that account, if you want to keep using that number for yourself.
This takes care of my short-term money needs, so we both are separate and equal during the transition time. Let's talk about next steps amicably. What's a good date for you to talk about long-term things? "
If you go through trial separation or divorce, unless you have some kind of legal agreement in place already to cover those circumstances (Do you? Or is this only a verbal promise?), the fact remains:
If you and he have a joint account and are trial separating or breaking up, you both have to show up to the bank and sign things to get your name legally off the account, and leave it open for the other to continue using that number once the other leaves. I would counsel you NOT to keep it open, but just make a whole new account. Why keep an account number your ex knows? That's not wise. Better to disband and everyone start with new bank accounts, separately.
But either joint account holder can waltz in whenever and shut the whole puppy down, or withdraw everything, and leave the account open with a zero balance. Just walk away with the cash without permission of the OTHER joint account holder. At any time.
Maybe you guys get back together in the end. But in the meanwhile, things are weird. Make it LESS weird by securing your finances for this in-between time.
Even with a legal agreement in place for how things are "supposed" to be divided in a divorce, he could go weird, shut the whole account and eat all the money, well before you ever see a mediator or a judge to split marital assets, properties and debts. You could chase him legally eventually and try to garnish his wages to start making good on the half that was supposed to be yours according to the legal agreement (if you have one to show)... assuming you had the money for a lawyer to chase him with in the first place. Cuz he ate it, remember? Lawyers cost $$$.
Or you could find pro bono legal aid, assuming you had the time to be chasing him that way and can deal with the miles-long waiting list for people seeking low cost/free legal aid. But in the short term, while jumping through all those hoops to chase him, would you have enough money to support yourself and kids in the meantime?
It's just a weird time, hon. Be careful. It is VERY unpleasant to think about.
Make it a non-issue by protecting your financial health right now.1 hour tops to drive to the bank, open a new checking account and drive back home. Or call your bank right now, if they have a 24-hour line and put a freeze on all actions until you can get there tomorrow (depending on the bank's policy).
Short-term financial health peace of mind for one hour's worth of work, max. You'll still have to deal with the other stuff as you guys work out your situation, but at least you don't have to worry about ending up at a women's shelter with the kids if he goes even weirder on you and cuts you off from money access.
I am concerned for your well-being, that's all. In the end, the choice is yours to make. I'm just some internet stranger you do not have to listen to. But I hope you can fully consider this option, and not push it away just because it is painful to entertain while you are hurting emotionally. I know it is. Even so, it could still be thought on.
Use your head, even if your heart is heavy. There's not just you, but kids on the line.
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