New to polyamory and issues

I am glad you are in counseling. I am truly sorry you deal in this. :(

FWIW... here's what pops out to me from you posts.

I don't think I can be happy (feel safe/secure,) in a non-monogamous marriage.. That's really not what I signed up for. I told her that, and she says she can't be happy in a monogamous marriage. The therapy sessions will continue, but thus far it's not all that promising
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You guys are not compatible. You both seem to know it. :(

At what point do you stop trying continue the marriage? Have you articulated that in therapy?

I love my wife.. Like I really feel like nobody has loved another in the history of loves (I know, I know..) I want like hell for us to succeed.. I don't see anything, "wrong," with non-monogamy, in principle.. I just don't think it's for me... Maybe I can help someone else, who knows.
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Succeed at WHAT? Has that been articulated well in therapy?
  • It's not conflict resolution. She doesn't know how to do it.
  • It's not marriage. You guys want incompatible things.

So what is it you want to succeed at?
  • Coming to terms?
  • A peaceful divorce?
  • Good coaprenting?
What do you both agree on?


She's told me all about how I deserve better and should divorce her, etc.. but to me that's a cop-out.. I believe in people working together toward a common goal or resolution, and that only works if both parties actually communicate.
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To me that sounds like she's telling you what she wants to do. She wants to divorce.

I think since she's not good at direct communication? She's not going to be assertive and say "I want to divorce." She's going to do it the passive way.

You do not seem ready to hear it yet or accept "peaceful divorce" as a common goal or resolution.

I think you could be brave and ask her in therapy... is a peaceful divorce the common goal she wants to pursue. (Because divorce CAN be one of the ways that a mismatched marriage can be resolved. Just not your fav way.)

It's kind of always been a thing, we've never learned how to fight properly. That is, she tries to shelf it and forget it, rather than talk it out after a fight.
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Sounds like this is coming back to bite you both now. Lack of this skill might be ignorable if the conflict is "who forgot to take out the trash." Small stuff. But not so much when it's the big stuff like divorce.

Is this the reason for the emotional affair? She was unhappy in the marriage and did not want to ask directly for a divorce? So she created a "reason" in the hopes that you would be mad and divorce her? Then she would be free of the marriage?

And I'll be clear.. I"m not planning on divorce. It's the last resort, IMO, and both of us have clearly stated we really want to remain together.
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When do you know you have reached the "last resort" place? Has that been articulated in therapy? Like... "We will try X, Y, and Z. When those have been tried, we will acknowledge that it is best to divorce."

HOW do you want to remain together? As what?
  • Spouses?
  • Lovers?
  • Coparents?
  • Friends?
  • Something else?

Which one of those are still on the table? Has this been discussed yet?

Can you recommend any? Most of the ones I have found have steps for me, steps for her, etc. I've done the steps for me, but she is unwilling to do the steps for her.
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So she's unwilling to do steps to repair her relationship with you. And she's passively told you she wants divorce.

I think in therapy you guys could stop avoiding it and talk about divorce. Like... "we will try X, Y Z to try to repair the marriages. This spouse will do these things. That spouse will do these things. If the things are not done, then we need to move forward and talk about divorce then."

If she continues in this "meh" kind of way... I think you have your answer even if she's not saying it outright: She's not into the marriage any more.

It is an emotional affair (affair of the heart,) but she is very much against labelling it such, saying that makes light of what it is.
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Call it what she wants to call it then. "Relationship with Bob" or whatever. It doesn't matter what name you call it. Don't get stuck on that. Move things FORWARD so you both can get to a healing place.

This sounds like dragging out pain. :(

I think you are doing triple load grief.
  • One load for the emotional affair.
  • Another load for not getting the monogamous marriage/family life you signed up for
  • Another load for the possibility of divorce looming on the horizon.

I can imagine all that would be hard to contend with.

I see that you are in couples therapy. Could adding individual therapy help you unburden these loads?

Galagirl
 
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GalaGirl said:
I am glad you are in counseling. I am truly sorry you deal in this. :(

FWIW... here's what pops out to me from you posts.



You guys are not compatible. You both seem to know it. :(

At what point do you stop trying continue the marriage? Have you articulated that in therapy?

Succeed at WHAT? Has that been articulated well in therapy?
  • It's not conflict resolution. She doesn't know how to do it.
  • It's not marriage. You guys want incompatible things.

So what is it you want to succeed at?
  • Coming to terms?
  • A peaceful divorce?
  • Good coaprenting?
What do you both agree on?




To me that sounds like she's telling you what she wants to do. She wants to divorce.

I think since she's not good at direct communication? She's not going to be assertive and say "I want to divorce." She's going to do it the passive way.

You do not seem ready to hear it yet or accept "peaceful divorce" as a common goal or resolution.

I think you could be brave and ask her in therapy... is a peaceful divorce the common goal she wants to pursue. (Because divorce CAN be one of the ways that a mismatched marriage can be resolved. Just not your fav way.)



Sounds like this is coming back to bite you both now. Lack of this skill might be ignorable if the conflict is "who forgot to take out the trash." Small stuff. But not so much when it's the big stuff like divorce.

Is this the reason for the emotional affair? She was unhappy in the marriage and did not want to ask directly for a divorce? So she created a "reason" in the hopes that you would be mad and divorce her? Then she would be free of the marriage?



When do you know you have reached the "last resort" place? Has that been articulated in therapy? Like... "We will try X, Y, and Z. When those have been tried, we will acknowledge that it is best to divorce."

HOW do you want to remain together? As what?
  • Spouses?
  • Lovers?
  • Coparents?
  • Friends?
  • Something else?

Which one of those are still on the table? Has this been discussed yet?



So she's unwilling to do steps to repair her relationship with you. And she's passively told you she wants divorce.

I think in therapy you guys could stop avoiding it and talk about divorce. Like... "we will try X, Y Z to try to repair the marriages. This spouse will do these things. That spouse will do these things. If the things are not done, then we need to move forward and talk about divorce then."

If she continues in this "meh" kind of way... I think you have your answer even if she's not saying it outright: She's not into the marriage any more.



Call it what she wants to call it then. "Relationship with Bob" or whatever. It doesn't matter what name you call it. Don't get stuck on that. Move things FORWARD so you both can get to a healing place.

This sounds like dragging out pain. :(

I think you are doing triple load grief.
  • One load for the emotional affair.
  • Another load for not getting the monogamous marriage/family life you signed up for
  • Another load for the possibility of divorce looming on the horizon.

I can imagine all that would be hard to contend with.

I see that you are in couples therapy. Could adding individual therapy help you unburden these loads?

Galagirl
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We do seem to want incompatible things... But I maintain hope in two things, really...

One, her view of non-monogamy is so narrow, it could simply be justification for the affair. She says no, but also says that if she lets go of the guy then she'd probably never meet someone else because she doesn't want to seek out a relationship. She's also staunchly against me doing so.

Two, if it is a real need of hers, then perhaps I can get to the point where I'm ok with it. And I don't mean ok with suffering through it, that's unacceptable to me too... But where we have the communication and openness where we can actually explore non-monogamy.

Individual and couples therapy are both going on right now actually lol.. don't do anything half way, right? But I'm hoping the combination helps her with the ability to communicate deeper emotional issues.
 
Glad to hear you also have individual therapy happening.

she said that she wishes she had told me she felt poly years ago, when we were married.. but that she was afraid I wouldn't be ok with it.
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One, her view of non-monogamy is so narrow, it could simply be justification for the affair. She says no, but also says that if she lets go of the guy then she'd probably never meet someone else because she doesn't want to seek out a relationship. She's also staunchly against me doing so.
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The, "type," of poly she says she is, is that she wants to love anyone she accidentally falls in love with.. ie: if she is talking to them on the internet or something, and falls in love, she wants to be able to explore that. Very narrow definition... She says she would never seek out another relationship, because that's like saying that our marriage wasn't happy... That she would feel wronged if I did seek out a secondary relationship, (see the irony here?)
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She's giving a lot of mixed messages. Like going around in circles.

  • She wishes she told you she was poly before you married. But was afraid you would not be ok with it. So... she didn't enter marriage as honestly as she could have or in good faith.
  • She doesn't want to end things with you because that's admitting the marriage wasn't solid.
  • She doesn't want you to see anyone else.
  • She does not want monogamy.
  • She doesn't want to end it with the other guy because she'll never find someone like that again.
  • If she does find someone like that again, she wants to be able to pursue.

Does she basically want Open for just her, and you around as the back up plan if things don't work out for her in her other relationships?

If so? That might be great for her, but I don't see how that's great for you. :(

Two, if it is a real need of hers, then perhaps I can get to the point where I'm ok with it. And I don't mean ok with suffering through it, that's unacceptable to me too... But where we have the communication and openness where we can actually explore non-monogamy.
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At this time you do not have the communication or openness.

At this time, she doesn't want "we can explore non monogamy." She doesn't want you seeing anyone else.

At this time, she doesn't want to do any of her therapy things.

So you might not want to be waiting in limbo forever for her to develop better skills and work on her share of the stuff.

You might consider setting some time frames in therapy.

  • Continue therapy for X months overall.
  • In that window, she has Y weeks to start working her share of the tasks (list them) to show good faith. She doesn't have to FINISH her tasks, but at least start working on them in a measurable way. Like she sets some individual therapy appointments to work on her communication. Or signs up to take communications class. Or reads a book on communication skills and identifies the areas she's strong/weak in.

But if she's not starting anything? And it isn't any better at the end of X months?
Her communication is still a mixed message bag of confusion?
You still want monogamy and she still wants non-monogamy?

Rather than beat heads on wall, you both could agree you gave it a try and move on to disbanding.

Let me be clear -- I'm not pushing for a break up.

I am suggesting you stop the "going in circles" thing that seems to be happening here.

I am suggesting you use the therapists to define shared goals, create a reasonable plan to meet those goals, divide the tasks into who does what, then define a window to execute the plan. Everyone holds up their ends of the sticks.

Then at the end of the window? Objectively assess with therapists how it was being done/not done.

  • Maybe it is going ok, but needs a bit more time. So you elect to continue but add a bit more time.

  • Maybe it's going poorly. Then you decide to not continue. Change to Plan B.

I will hope it works out in the end as you hope for it to. I just think it has a better shot at getting there if there's an actual plan both agree to uphold.

Galagirl
 
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You can stretch this out causing long term grief for yourself or simply walk away and start fresh with someone new and live the loving / peaceful life you obviously desire.
 
LanaH102 said:
You can stretch this out causing long term grief for yourself or simply walk away and start fresh with someone new and live the loving / peaceful life you obviously desire.
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I'm a little bit too stubborn for that lol.. I don't give up on things easily, especially when they are amazing things that I value greatly.. Like my relationship with my wife. I'm also generally very patient and understanding/empathetic, so that helps with this kind of situation. I may not understand the specific situation, but I'll do my damnedest to get there, regardless of if I never get to the point where I feel its something for me.

Does it cause pain and discomfort? Sometimes... But pain and discomfort are some of the things that teach lessons and help me grow, too.

We're talking... We're going to counseling... We are trying to figure out the best way forward for both of us, and each of us, and our family.. And we'll continue doing that until we figure it out one way or another.

We're going to do what GalaGirl suggested. Have touchpoints or checkpoints, so that this isn't something that drags on forever. I don't mean like, "things need to be fixed by this day or else," but more, "we need to see progress and forward motion that is leading us both to a resolution on a regular basis."

Thank you to everyone for your advice, suggestions, and perspectives.
 
This sounds really painful, Shaun. I feel your pain and empathise with the hard position you are finding yourself in. I previously linked my intro post. My wife also felt it very difficult to give up her affair partner. She felt that he offered her a once in a lifetime opportunity to explore polyamory and was unable to separate the concept of polyamory from her affair partner - essentially, if he wasn't "on the table" then she would rather we remain monogamous. It was painful for me to hear that she would enter polyamory for him but would not want to "go slow" into polyamory for me.

I recognise everybody's situation is different. If you and your wife are set on going forward with polyamory despite the challenges you face, I would imagine that giving you security in your relationship would amongst the most important things your wife could do for you. Going slowly, at a rate you are comfortable with would also be important. In return, you will have to allow her to progress the relationship, even if it is only in small incremental steps. Jealousy might be difficult. Kdt (kevin) has many good links for this.

Good luck. I imagine you will feel like a totally different person over the next few weeks, if not already. You will probably soon find yourself in a position to give advice to newbies in poly. I look forward to hearing advice from you in future if my wife and I ever enter polyamory again.

Best wishes,
Shaya.
 
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