Online/Kik Only?

[Scarletghost]

Just completed the first week of hubby and I allowing one another to have fun on Kik. We aren't open to physical or face-to-face relationships with others, and I'm having a really hard time finding info or "BTDT" stuff that might pertain to online-only openness. Seeking any advice you all may have!

I feel the biggest sticking point is that he has somewhat of an addictive personality and I'm having a hard time conveying to him what I feel is an appropriate amount of attention to be devoted to the women who "live" in his phone. It's like he can't stop himself from checking the app for responses. I see it as a solitary (as in not a shared experience between the two of us) entertainment thing, and don't generally feel the need to seek solitary entertainment when I'm having dinner with him, or walking through the grocery store together. I tried turning off notifications from Kik in his phone settings (with his permission) thinking maybe out of sight would prevent him from feeling the urge to jump every time someone PM'd him, but I'm not sure it's helped much.

I do have some jealousy issues as well. I do recognize some of these feelings as internal character flaws, and am committed to working through them in the interest of self-improvement. There are other things that I feel justified in asking for adjustment with, though. For example, he told one girl he's talked to that she looked "gorgeous" in a photo she sent. He initiated a chat with another by telling her she had a "beautiful" body. He regularly tells me I look "hot," and that I'm a "MILF," he is so horny, needs to "fuck" me, etc., but I don't recall the last time he used words like "beautiful" or "gorgeous" when referring to me. It's not that I take issue with his use of those words with other women, in general, just the fact that he is using them on other women when he doesn't really use them with me. I don't think he understands that some words simply imply objectification (which I do actually enjoy from him as well), while others imply romantic feelings and admiration. I feel as if he is giving other women those good feelings of romance and admiration, and it's just highlighting my deprivation. I hope that makes sense!

When I bring things like this (and the amount/timing of his use) up, he takes it as me imposing limitations on it, and has become defensive and frustrated. At one point he even said he was just going to stop using it because all of my "rules" were too complicated. He seems to see it as a black and white thing, where as long as I'm physically satisfied, he should be able to talk to others (using only Kik) as much and in whatever way he pleases. I'll admit I did say that as a loose guideline when we first discussed this possibility, but I see this as more nuanced and an evolving agreement. What if the founding fathers of the US had thrown their hands up when the first Constitutional amendment was proposed and said "fuck it, I give up. We may as well just not have a country if the rules are going to keep changing." Not sure how to come to common ground here.

It makes me happy to see him having a good time without me having to be involved, I just want it to be reasonable and not consume his every waking thought. I feel it should be an accent to our marriage, something that you check a few times a day to keep in contact with people you find interesting, and have a prolonged conversation or sexual encounter as time permits (can't sleep in the middle of the night, home from work before the other person and have a half hour or so to relax alone, etc.), a couple of times a week maybe. Is that not fair of me to ask? How can we go about compromising if his ideal picture differs from mine?

 

[vinsanity0]

If you want to slow him down a bit you can point out that those women are probably not women at all...lol

 

[Scarletghost]

If you want to slow him down a bit you can point out that those women are probably not women at all...lol

Oh we've had that speculative discussion before!

Also, he tends to seek out the more "real" looking people. For example, he's currently in ongoing contact with a girl in her early 20s in the Philippines. She's some sort of accountant. She's sent him live photos periodically during conversation, just of her surroundings and things, nothing sexual, per se. She sent him a selfie from an event she attending while she waited for her friends to meet her the other day. This was the one he called "gorgeous" :/

 

[MockingJay]

Hey Scarlet,

I don't post on here a lot, until I come across stories that resonate with what I have been going through. Your husband sounds similar to my wife with his habits for checking messages from others.

We also struggled with this in the beginning, mainly because anytime I would see that she was consumed by her conversations with someone on her phone, I would let some of my feelings of jealousy get to me. So when I would engage her on the subject, it would usually come out the wrong way and put her on the defensive.

I think it is important to have some boundaries here. For example, if you are spending 1 on 1 time with your husband, phones should be put away and switched to silent. It's not unreasonable that you get his complete attention sometimes.

Anything that bothers you, you should talk about and come to some kind of compromise or agreement where you are both happy. I have found that talking openly about any connections my wife is having helps a great deal, and knowing a little about the people she enjoys chatting with the most. That way, it's not some mystery person living in her phone that I have to wonder about, I can just ask who she is talking to and she will tell me, and this puts my worries and jealousy to rest.

Sometimes now I will be okay with her chatting with someone even during our 1 on 1 time, say if we are just hanging out watching Netflix at the end of the day and she is on her phone, if I know it is someone new or interesting that she really wants to talk to. As long as it's not all the time and we still get our special time too.

 

[Scarletghost]

Thanks for the insight! Yeah, it's felt like it's always there on his mind, even if he's not actively looking at the app. Like it's taking all his willpower to resist being glued to the phone every moment of downtime he has. Like he was literally checking Kik while driving with me in the passenger seat several times this week.

I requested a 24 hour, midnight to midnight period of no Kik one day this past week. Thought about deleting the app from his phone altogether (long story on why that would have accomplished something), but decided to trust him instead when he said he could abide by a 24 hour moratorium. Woke up the next morning to find him on Kik, which he thought was allowed because he was just chatting, not sexting. I had to clarify further that when I said 24 hours of "no Kik," I meant...24 hours of no Kik. I checked his iPhone battery report that morning and it said Kik had used 8% for the current 24 hour period. Told him we'd look again before bed, and that if the number increased (meaning the app had been used during the day), we'd have words. Checked before bed and it was at 11% of battery usage, which he said was because of the app in background activity. I asked him why it was running in the background if I'd closed it completely that morning while we were looking together before he went to work. He had no good answer for that. Ugh

 

[lunabunny]

Scarletghost, may I ask, what were the reason/s you and your husband decided to use the Kik app to chat, flirt or sext other people in the first place?

Is this meant to be an "ease into polyamory" kind of test? By that, I mean do you guys consider it a less threatening way to begin opening your marriage, than immediately seeking out partners in real life might be... or at this stage do you not intend to have any actual physical contact with others, ever?

I understand that it is early days yet and you are both still testing the waters and feeling out the edges of each other's limits. However, from what I can glean from your explanation, neither of you appear to be ready even for this exercise in branching out.

The reason I say that, is because your husband's behaviour appears to be bordering on obsessive-compulsive, rather than him simply viewing Kik-chat as an enjoyable and exciting new activity. And whilst you thought you'd agreed to share and compare the results - possibly to spice up your sex life or add a new dimension to your marriage - he seems to be flying solo 24/7.

In your OP you state he has a "somewhat addictive" personality. So if you already knew that it might be an issue going in, why did you suggest/decide/agree to this course? Whose idea was it? And has your husband ever indicated that he has addictions to either porn and/or sex in the past? If so, I believe he should consult a sex therapist or you both may want to seek couples counselling. Addicts will always try to bend the rules and have a million seemingly-legit excuses on hand for inexcusable behaviour. Also, you don't say if he has a disorder of attention/focus.

To my mind, the other red-flag in this situation is your seemingly constant monitoring of your husband's actions. While understandable in the light of his compulsive behaviour and attempts to exploit any loophole in your agreement, you appear to be allowing your jealous streak to bend the some commonly implied guidelines of coupledom; namely impinging on your husband's privacy as it pertains to his phone usage.

Letting your suspicions and insecurity take over to the point where you're literally checking the percentage used by this particular app at any given point in a day indicates that your need to control your partner's behaviour is verging on a compulsion of its own. Warranted or not, there's a distinct lack of trust in your husband's ability or intentions to uphold agreements, and possibly a lack of integrity on your part also, if you accessed his phone settings without his permission the last couple of time (I know you said you had his permission to turn off notifications at an earlier stage).

It's difficult to know what to advise without knowing how much further you both intend to take this interest in talking to others online.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I checked his iPhone battery report that morning and it said Kik had used 8% for the current 24 hour period. Told him we'd look again before bed, and that if the number increased (meaning the app had been used during the day), we'd have words. Checked before bed and it was at 11% of battery usage....

This is, at best, nanny behavior on your part and totally sets you up as the finger wagging prison matron. Lunabunny brings up essential questions for you concerning your contribution to the way in which all of this is developing.

Addicts will always try to bend the rules and have a million seemingly-legit excuses on hand for inexcusable behaviour.....the other red-flag in this situation is your seemingly constant monitoring of your husband's actions.... Letting your suspicions and insecurity take over to the point where you're literally checking the percentage used by this particular app at any given point in a day indicates that your need to control your partner's behaviour is verging on a compulsion of its own.

Just as addicts have seemingly-legit excuses for their behavior, so do co-dependents have seemingly-legit excuses for monitoring and attempting to control the same behavior. Both of you equally contribute to what's happening right now. It's NEVER about one person needing to "behave."

 

[Marcus]

This is, at best, nanny behavior on your part and totally sets you up as the finger wagging prison matron.

I presumed this was a Dom/sub relationship configuration the OP was talking about; maybe a mommy/teenager scenario or something.

 

[Scarletghost]

Thank you both for your input! Forgive the long post, I'm finding clarity in my feelings through the act of writing them out, lol!

As for the questing of whether this is as far as we intend the openness to go, at this time, yes. I know myself well enough to know that I am not the type who can flourish in a traditionally open marriage. I am bisexual and would love to get to a point where he and I can bring another woman into our bedroom, but we are both on the same page that things will always be man and wife + 1 occasionally, if/when I feel comfortable with it.

We are actually already seeing a marriage counselor, which started recently, but prior to this new Kik thing. His advice when we told him what we'd been doing was to network and find people to draw support and experience from. So here I am!

He has kinda sorta started to realize that his porn habit might be bordering on addiction. We talk about that issue with our counselor, who has had some good insights. I'm not sure my husband is quite ready to address it, as he is going through some stressful times with his professional life, and sees porn as one of the few quick ways to blow off that steam several times a week. The first step is admitting a problem, though, so I'm hopeful. Along with Kik, I also agreed to him getting on Periscope, which we have used together previously. I now feel this may not be the best idea, as it's another app that he seems to pull up without even thinking several times a day, where as I thought it would be a once or twice a week distraction. It's on our radar, but I may need to bring it up at some point as in the porn category (he really only looks for women masturbating and couples having sex).

I suppose I should disclose another detail...early in our relationship I discovered (completely innocently, I swear...looking through our bank account at his request for a lost rent payment) his purchases of Chatroulette credit for the purpose of mutual webcam masturbation with random girls. He didn't consider that cheating, but has admitted he knew the intimate person-to-person connection was something I'd be hurt by, and knowingly attempted to cover up. This triggered a great sense of mistrust, and I developed a habit of snooping on his computer (which to be fair is basically our "family" machine) and electronic devices. Then earlier this year, I discovered (during a not-so-innocent snooping session, I admit) that he'd been carrying on a month long affair on Kik with another woman. We have agreed on the terms "cheating" and "affair" for this one, since it was a prolonged relationship and he had caring feelings for her, though he explains he cared for her as a friend. Who he happened to sext with.

I've been living with this horrible anxiety for so long, and knew I was approaching a breaking point. then I happened to listen to a TED talk by a guy who feared rejection, so his solution for self-improvement was to set himself up for it once a day for a whole year (asking a stranger to borrow $100, requesting a "burger refill" at a fast food restaurant, etc.). Something in me clicked, and I proposed the wild idea to my hubs of openly doing Kik, allowing one another to sext other people there, and have some level of relationship with people in that format. We are just entering our second week, and it's honestly been more bad than good.

To correct a few misunderstandings, I can't remember the last time I clandestinely snooped on his phone. One of the first things I decided after the Kik affair was that I was at least going to notify him if I was going to look at his stuff. He agreed wholeheartedly, in light of knowing how badly he'd messed up. We both felt that was fair to everyone involved. Also, I only once turned the notifications off, and it was with him sitting right there and only after his ok to do so. As for the battery percentage thing, again that's been the one time, with him sitting there beside me...after he'd "exploited a loophole" (which is a perfect way to describe what it feels like he's doing when he plays the "I didn't know you meant xyz" card).

We had a check-in about the arrangement last night. Opinions were passionate at times, mostly regarding his declaration that he was going to respond to people on Kik in accordance with how frequently/quickly he responds to text messages from people we know "irl," meaning as he sees fit. At the outset, I was most apprehensive about the sexting, and thought that would be the majority of his use of the app. I told him that as long as he satisfied me first and it wasn't taking away from our time together, I was fine with him doing his thing on Kik. As the week progressed and I've realized he's spending far more time conversing and being very flirty with just 1 specific girl, and I'm feeling MUCH more jealous of that. He's only sexted someone once so far (not the 1 girl, she's explicitly said she does NOT want nudes), and I was very truly happy for him after that interaction. I'm having a much harder time with instances like the girl he talks to most often sending him a selfie of her falling asleep at work, and seeing him reply "aw, poor baby <3". I texted telling him I was having menstrual cramps at work today (complete with sad face emoji), and got back "Oh no! I left papers in your car that I might go get during lunch. what is your work address?" He did call me a little while after to ask how I was, but it felt a bit like an accessory to further discussion of the paperwork pick up. He's told this girl she was "gorgeous," and another she had a "beautiful" body. He only tells me I'm hot/a MILF and that he needs to "fuck" me.

We talked last night about the use of sexually objectifying language vs. romantic language. He told me that he will not force himself to say things just to make me happy, and that the anxiety makes me NOT beautiful to him. I pointed out that seeing him speak to other women in ways that were so not in his nature in MY experience triggered my anxiety and jealousy. He kept saying "ok, so I just won't use those words with people on Kik." I put it very plainly several times that I'd be fine with him using romantic language with them if he was also using it with me. I'm not sure he actually got it. We'll see how it goes this week.

I tried to approach the discussion we had last night from an angle of positivity (what went well?) followed by concerns (what can we improve on?) The time management was a big one for me, and we tried doing a cutoff time for Kik last night, which worked alright. I do think I'm going to request that we flip that on its head and do a cut ON time, since the former meant I only got him to myself at a point where he could barely keep his eyes open. I think having things more delineated and scheduled would help me. He requested that I not spring new rules and things on him WHILE he was actively chatting, which I can understand. I'm definitely going to fix that immediately. It's just my jealousy and feeling like he's pursuing other women with the romantic flirtiness I haven't felt from him since the first ~6 months of our relationship. I want him to pursue me too! Is that unreasonable? I'm genuinely asking.

Thanks again for reading!

 

[Scarletghost]

Just as addicts have seemingly-legit excuses for their behavior, so do co-dependents have seemingly-legit excuses for monitoring and attempting to control the same behavior. Both of you equally contribute to what's happening right now. It's NEVER about one person needing to "behave."

I definitely do NOT want to cultivate the finger-wagging matron persona, but am I out of line for expecting honesty and faithfulness (unless otherwise agreed-upon, which it hasn't always been when he's been caught hiding things from me)?

I presumed this was a Dom/sub relationship configuration the OP was talking about; maybe a mommy/teenager scenario or something.

><;;
Ugh

 

[Voyager]

Sorry this is so long...

Scarletghost, you absolutely have a right to expect honesty and faithfulness from your husband! But that's kind of the problem I'm seeing here -- that you *don't* expect it. That is, you're actually more or less presuming it likely that he's being dishonest, and checking to verify your suspicions.

Now, that may be entirely accurate, as it happens -- I'm not saying necessarily that the problem is that your suspicions aren't justified. What I'm saying is that, whenever somebody can't trust their partner to abide by the relationship terms that the two of them have agreed to, without having to check up on them and find out, then something is going pretty distressingly wrong. It might be that partner A is actually not trustworthy, and is breaking the terms they agreed to; or it might be that partner B is needlessly insecure and stressing about things that aren't actually happening; or it might be that partner A isn't actually breaking the rules but is doing something else to leave partner B feeling abandoned or insecure, so that they feel that partner A might be starting to withdraw from them, even if it isn't true.

But whatever it is, in my experience, it always means that something isn't going well between them, if somebody feels a need to check up on the other. Healthy couples know that they can trust each other to meet their needs, and tell them the truth, and they don't need to check -- not due to their partner's behavior; not due to their own insecurities; not due to anything.

One thing which jumps out at me here is the degree of control you seem to feel that you need over this entire process, in order to be safe with anything besides strict monogamy in your relationship. I mean, deciding that it's not even safe to meet someone face to face, in a public place, with everybody's clothes on, is a pretty strict degree of control! When you add on top of that the fact that, even with that requirement, you're still afraid enough to be checking his phone for how much time he spends with other partners on it, I really wonder whether something inside you is telling you that however great nonmonogamy might be in theory, your feelings just don't want it -- at least not right now, with this partner, in this relationship, as it currently functions.

And there's nothing wrong with that! There are plenty of people who try it and find out it isn't for them... or that maybe it is, but not with a partner whom they can't entirely trust to handle it in the ways they need a partner to handle it. I attempted to open up my first relationship, 30 years ago, at the demand of a boyfriend who gave me an ultimatum. I came back to him 24 hours later, after spending the entire time in between literally sick from jealousy and fear and misery, and told him No. We broke up, and I remained happily monogamous for another several years, until I fell in love with a man who was dating my roommate, while I was engaged to a different roommate. That relationship lasted 12 years, and during it I found that I was fine with these partners seeing other people! They weren't the same people, and I wasn't in the same place in my life, and this time it worked. The first time, it never could have for me.

But if you decide to stick with it, I think you're going to have to find some way to reach a point where you can truly and honestly trust your partner to do what he says he will do and not do what he says he won't do. That's not about anyone else, and restricting what he can do with other partners won't address that problem -- the problem is between the two of you. You can't trust his followthrough, because of the 'addictive streak' or for whatever other reason. That is its own problem, and it's going to need to get resolved between you independently of the question of how much time he is 'allowed' to spend on the phone talking to other partners.

One more thing: please, I urge you to stop thinking of this phone-based relationship activity as "solitary." It's too easy for members of a primary couple, if they don't get to know their partner's other partners, to forget that those are actual people at the other end of the phone. People who are opening themselves up to your husband, allowing themselves to feel and care and become vulnerable -- not just to him, but by extension, to you, because you have an enormous amount of control right now over the terms under which they are allowed to experience their romantic life with this person they're growing close to. That is a terrifying position to be in, so much under the power of somebody else whom you don't even know, and can't tell whether you can trust to use it well.

So you're going to have to protect those people from your own worst instincts, because they cannot protect themselves from you. Please be careful not to use your control over your husband's phone relationships in an arbitrary way, or in a way which doesn't take into consideration the potential impact on their feelings... not just yours and your husband's. If you don't get to know these people, they may remain abstract to you, but they and their feelings are as real to them as yours are to you. And you can hurt them very badly by not remembering that.

Suggested reading: The Game Changer, by Franklin Veaux.

 

[lunabunny]

He has kinda sorta started to realize that his porn habit might be bordering on addiction.

Along with Kik, I also agreed to him getting on Periscope... it's another app that he seems to pull up without even thinking several times a day... (he really only looks for women masturbating and couples having sex).

I suppose I should disclose another detail...early in our relationship I discovered... his purchases of Chatroulette credit for the purpose of mutual webcam masturbation with random girls. He didn't consider that cheating, but has admitted he knew the intimate person-to-person connection was something I'd be hurt by, and knowingly attempted to cover up.

Then earlier this year, I discovered... that he'd been carrying on a month long affair on Kik with another woman. We have agreed on the terms "cheating" and "affair" for this one,

Scarletghost, you used to term porn "habit" and from what you describe here, your husband does indeed display a fairly pernicious porn addiction. Or perhaps what he does is more in the realm of a sex addiction. I haven't had direct experience with either condition, but perhaps your counsellor has more insight. I simply recognise the behavioural patterns (compulsion, secrecy, excuse-making) as being common to ALL forms of addiction as one of my partners abuses substances.

Your own language suggests you are trying to downplay his behaviour, as you use qualifiers such as kinda sorta realises... might be bordering on addition... only looks for women masturbating... he didn't consider that cheating, but has admitted... etc.

I am concerned that you appear unwilling to recognise the potential seriousness of the condition/s, both as it/they pertain to the health of your marriage, your confidence in your own worth, "lovability" and quality of life, AND your husband's overall psychological wellbeing. (i.e. While he is *so* focussed on these chat activities and checking his phone multiple times a day, he can't devote his full energies to you, your relationship or perhaps even other spheres of his life, such as work, exercise, healthy eating.)

I've been living with this horrible anxiety for so long, and knew I was approaching a breaking point. then I happened to listen to a TED talk by a guy who feared rejection, so his solution for self-improvement was to set himself up for it once a day for a whole year (asking a stranger to borrow $100, requesting a "burger refill" at a fast food restaurant, etc.). Something in me clicked, and I proposed the wild idea to my hubs of openly doing Kik, allowing one another to sext other people there, and have some level of relationship with people in that format.

To correct a few misunderstandings, I can't remember the last time I clandestinely snooped on his phone... As for the battery percentage thing, again that's been the one time, with him sitting there beside me...after he'd "exploited a loophole" (which is a perfect way to describe what it feels like he's doing when he plays the "I didn't know you meant xyz" card).

I believe that after facing evidence of his addition to porn and his affair, this Kik idea was your last ditch attempt to exert some degree of control over your husband's extramarital activities and calm your insecurities, by convincing yourself it's just harmless "fun" with strangers online (they're not real people if there's no actual physical interaction, right?)

It seems to me that you are not so much on board with non monogamy or having fun with it, as using this latest Kik idea to contain the damage to a forum you can monitor/manage. You yourself fear rejection at the hands of your husband (being replaced by other women he has on a pedestal, and by his obsessive need to seek gratification and validation from sources other than you), so you naturally hit on this idea as a seemingly "safer" and less threatening way for you both (but really just him) to satisfy his appetite for sex/connection/admiration from other women.

Your reaction is understandable in many ways, especially in light of his propensity to "woo" these women with compliments and romantic words at your expense. I am not sure if boredom or a need for novelty is what's at play here, but he does seem to take you for granted and be unwilling or unable to see your pov when it comes to the different way he uses the language of courtship with these other women compared to the way he speaks to you. (You say he refers to you as "hot" and a "milf" - is he still IN love with you though?)

When my partner Jester relapsed with his addiction and became distracted and uncommunicative, I feared he was losing interest in me sexually; perhaps even falling out of love. Like you, my solution was to add other people to the mix (in our case I took on another lover, Boho, who is a former lover and close friend of Jester's) and together we attempted to force a triad situation.

This equilateral arrangement didn't "take" and we are now essentially a closed V. But the reason the triad experiment was unsuccessful was because at least two of the parties were using it as a way to combat insecurity and jealousy, and/or to fill emotional holes left by one of the other parties. No other person, persons or outside distractions can be a substitute for a relationship that is failing in many keys areas.
[/QUOTE]

 

[breathemusic]

I'm only going to comment on a small detail of this whole interaction and that's a privacy issue. It's obvious that you know he uses Kik and you guys have a whole agreement. And you've checked his phone when he's consented and all that... but do the women that he talks to know that you're reading his messages? Has he explicitly told them that? If not, then you both are violating THEIR privacy.

I think it's fine if you agree that you want to know how often he's using this stuff due to addictive personality issues, and that's something that you guys can negotiate between yourselves, but actually reading the messages vs just knowing he is messaging are 2 different things. I think it might be best if you didn't read his conversations. You won't have to stress about his word choices, and those women won't have to have their privacy violated. Or if that's not doable, then he should be telling them from the start that you may or may not read the messages so that they can then choose whether they still want to talk to your husband.

 

[Scarletghost]

Thank you all so much for your insights! It's extremely helpful to have objective viewpoints. I feel like only my feelings are being told, and I will ask my husband to join and comment to explain his feelings too (it's not likely to happen, but I'll try). I think it would be good to have a balanced view in order to give the best advice.

As for the privacy issue mentioned above, I have told every man with whom I've chatted (or more) that I am married, and that my husband has access. I just told a guy last night that I didn't want to play right then because I was laying in bed next to hubby, lol. I've mentioned this point to my husband as well, but he's been reluctant to disclose to the women he has been chatting up the most. I will most definitely bring this to the table as an issue at our next check-in on Sunday, and we will figure out a way to make everyone happy.

I did want to add that I promise I'm not a horrible person who sees these Kik chat partners as nameless faceless boob/dick pics on a phone screen. I know they are real people just like me. But I have to assume that everyone on an app like that is adult enough to keep it in perspective. I would hope these women aren't so naive as to fall in love with ANYONE over Kik, much less my husband. I would hope the possibility of not hearing from him for a day or two when they're used to chatting multiple times a day would not send anyone into a tailspin.

As for my control issues, there is truth to that, but I also feel like it's just that boundaries are important here to keep either of us from being hurt. I'm a very black/white, right/wrong person. For example, I don't think it's a big deal to be having a conversational (not sexting, just talking and flirting) exchange with someone on Kik and have them just stop replying. Maybe they had to take out the trash. Maybe they fell asleep. Maybe I'll talk to them tomorrow or the next day. NBD. My husband feels differently, which is why he'd pushed the cut-off time we'd agreed to the other day. He hadn't quite wrapped his conversation up with the girl he chats most with, and wanted to do so. We had agreed to a time to cease Kik activity. I interpreted a 9:00pm cut-off to mean sending Kik messages at 9:02pm wasn't keeping to our agreement. I know it seems silly, but these are the sorts of things that get me, because it's the principle. 9:00 means 9:00. I would have noted the time as it grew closer and made sure I'd sent my last "goodnight" message at 8:59 (or earlier). I feel like if 9:00 becomes 9:02, what else are we going to slide on? How much further are we going to bend the "rules" we agree to?

 

[Voyager]

Scarletghost, the problem with your boundaries is simply that you're not only imposing them on your husband, who has agreed to them; but on a number of other people who haven't, and who don't have an opportunity to be part of the discussion about what the boundaries which influence their lives are. You say that you're trying "to keep either of us from being hurt," and that's a really telling phrase... because there are only two people whose pain is a consideration for you. But there are three people in the equation. So far, you're not concerned with whether the third person gets hurt -- but perhaps it's worth thinking about whether you are able to be generous enough to include them and their feelings in your calculations, even if you feel a need to maintain the control of setting the rules yourself. Can you at least try to set them with a sincere effort to try and make sure that none of you gets hurt, not only that neither of you gets hurt?

I absolutely agree with you, by the way, that it's essential for your husband, if he is to handle this whole thing ethically, to come clean to the women he talks to about being married. It's just not fair to either them or you for him to keep that hidden.

As for the sharp dividing lines, I usually treat most times as having a five-minute grace period, but if you think it's important for the cutoff to be 9:00 instead of 9:02, so long as everyone involved knows the score, that's not inherently unreasonable. There are two important factors here, though. One is that everyone involved here knows the score... which means that your husband needs to bite the bullet and not only say in so many words, "I am married, and my wife knows I'm here and has agreed that it's okay within certain parameters," but also, "One of the promises I made my wife is that I will be off the phone by 9:00, and not one minute later." If somebody KNOWS that their conversation partner might disappear any moment as the clock ticks toward nine, then there's nothing mysterious or alarming about it when he sometimes does. If they don't know, then there is a huge range for speculation open. Yes, he might have gone to take out the trash -- which would have been exceedingly rude of him to do in the middle of a conversation without mentioning that he'd be going silent for a while to do so -- but he equally might have passed out from a stroke. You just don't know, if you're the person hanging on in silence at the other end of the line.

So if 9:00 is your rule, fine. But get these women's buy-in. There are a few basic principles on which ethical nonmonogamy is based, and the current situation violates two of them: knowledge and consent.

By concealing from these women the full knowledge of what's going on, your husband is putting them in a position where they cannot truly consent to what they're doing with him. They may have hard boundaries against talking on Kix to married men. You don't know, and neither does he, because it never came up... and because he allowed them to believe him single without correction, he is responsible for that. Similarly, you are putting them in a position where they cannot realistically decide whether or not they're okay with obeying your rules... because they have no idea what those rules are.

I am not a fan of "These are the rules, take it or leave it; if you don't do everything my way, then you don't get to date my partner," type restrictions in the first place. But I get that they are a sine qua non for a lot of couples, and I'm not objecting to them here; my dislike is for myself, not an ethical objection. But if you're going to put "these are the rules you're signing up for by choosing to date (or whatever) my partner" type restrictions on people, you must tell them exactly what those rules are, or else how can they ever make a reasoned decision about whether or not they are willing to obey them?

 

[Scarletghost]

Voyager, this is amazing, and I want to give it the reply it deserves, but have to cook dinner now. I have thoughts, can't wait to share them

 

[lunabunny]

I did want to add that I promise I'm not a horrible person who sees these Kik chat partners as nameless faceless boob/dick pics on a phone screen. I know they are real people just like me.

I just need to clarify that I don't mean to imply (nor do I believe anyone else here who mentioned this aspect means to imply) that you are a heartless, unfeeling person.

That said, it is possible - due to the very nature of these apps/online chat AND your particular circumstances and reasons for suggesting this activity - to "compartmentalise" when it comes to viewing this activity as just a casual, fun, "no strings attached" kind of game. Even if you're only telling yourself this just to reassure yourself it's not seriously going to threaten your marriage. And even though - on an intellectual level - you realise the people on the other end have just as full lives and complicated emotions as you do.

But I have to assume that everyone on an app like that is adult enough to keep it in perspective. I would hope these women aren't so naive as to fall in love with ANYONE over Kik, much less my husband. I would hope the possibility of not hearing from him for a day or two when they're used to chatting multiple times a day would not send anyone into a tailspin.

And this is where I find there's a problem with assumptions. The fact that this one particular girl who your husband called "beautiful" is refusing to send nudes and play sexting games (so far), seems to indicate she is either just wanting to chat on a platonic, possibly mildly flirtatious level OR else is looking at these interactions as a lead-up phase to actual romantic attachment/falling in love/real relationship.

The fact that your husband is using the type of language you mentioned WITH her, and yet their online friendship doesn't include or hasn't yet progressed to sexting and the like, would indicate to me that he MAY be developing deeper feelings for her, OR is "grooming" her for future sexual escapades that she's not ready for yet. (That sounds horrible, but what I mean by that is he may see her "girl next door" personality as a challenge.)

For example, I don't think it's a big deal to be having a conversational (not sexting, just talking and flirting) exchange with someone on Kik and have them just stop replying. Maybe they had to take out the trash. Maybe they fell asleep. Maybe I'll talk to them tomorrow or the next day. NBD. My husband feels differently, which is why he'd pushed the cut-off time we'd agreed to the other day. He hadn't quite wrapped his conversation up with the girl he chats most with, and wanted to do so.

This could simply be a difference in the way you each view "netiquette", but it does sound to me like your husband is developing an actual relationship here, even if that relationship is "only" friendship or affection for this woman.

Of course you have a right to your own boundaries and your husband ought to abide by any agreements you've both made instead of continually pushing at the edges, trying to wear you down, hoping you'll give in or not notice another breach.

Frankly, I'm not sure I could trust him to handle this situation well or honestly after all the past breaches + his addictive personality. What does your counsellor suggest when it comes to the rules you've set around Kik activity, time limits etc.?

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Scarletghost,

I don't have much to add to the already-good advice given so far on this thread. But I do have to say, there seems to be a tug of war going on between you and your husband. First he breaks the rules, or bends the rules, or finds a loophole, hoping you won't notice. That's him pulling on the rope. Then you add new rules, or tighten existing rules, hoping he'll obey the spirit of the rules this time. That's you pulling on the rope. Then he pulls again; then you pull again. Both of you are pulling, pulling, pulling; he wants more freedom, you want more control. And I want to add that I don't condone his behavior. Nor do I know what to do to fix the situation. I'm only describing my overall observation, in hopes that it will somehow help.

One thought I have is that you might want to end the Kik experiment. Another thought I have is that maybe it can be seen by now that you and your husband are not compatible. Although that is probably not what you'd want to hear ...

And I know that you are getting counseling, so maybe give that a chance. Just, I'm sure you know this, but something's got to change. The tug of war has to end. Which means, among other things, that he has to stop pulling the rope.

Hang in there, and keep us posted.
With sympathy,
Kevin T.

 

[Voyager]

Hi Scarletghost,

I don't have much to add to the already-good advice given so far on this thread. But I do have to say, there seems to be a tug of war going on between you and your husband. First he breaks the rules, or bends the rules, or finds a loophole, hoping you won't notice. That's him pulling on the rope. Then you add new rules, or tighten existing rules, hoping he'll obey the spirit of the rules this time. That's you pulling on the rope. Then he pulls again; then you pull again. Both of you are pulling, pulling, pulling; he wants more freedom, you want more control. And I want to add that I don't condone his behavior. Nor do I know what to do to fix the situation. I'm only describing my overall observation, in hopes that it will somehow help.

One thought I have is that you might want to end the Kik experiment. Another thought I have is that maybe it can be seen by now that you and your husband are not compatible. Although that is probably not what you'd want to hear ...

And I know that you are getting counseling, so maybe give that a chance. Just, I'm sure you know this, but something's got to change. The tug of war has to end. Which means, among other things, that he has to stop pulling the rope.

Hang in there, and keep us posted.
With sympathy,
Kevin T.

This, yes.

And the thing is, Kevin says "Which means, among other things, that he has to stop pulling the rope." But that's not something Scarletghost can control. Nor, technically, is it the only way to resolve the tug-o-war; it's just the one which I'm sure Scarletghost would prefer.

But that doesn't make it any more within her control.

Let me be clear: I think the most reasonable solution in this situation is that he stop pulling on the rope also. But that isn't something I get to decide. He does, and he doesn't appear willing, at this time, to cease pulling. That means Scarletghost has three choices: she can tolerate the fact that there's going to be an ongoing tug-o-war with no resolution... or she can stop pulling on her end of the rope herself (meaning let him do whatever he's gonna do with these phone connections, without making any effort to control them or hold him to any rules)... or she can drop the rope and walk away from the marriage.

Having him decide spontaneously that he wants to behave differently from the way he's been behaving isn't a choice, it's a daydream.