Open vs Poly

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I find it's less people being told new things, and more how they are told.

People listen to empathy; tough love rarely makes a good impact. You can be a shoulder AND someone giving advice. GalaGirl and Kevin somehow manage what you cannot

Neither Galagirl or Kevin told the OP that many people practice polyamory exactly how the OP's ex does which made her believe that she was right and doing poly the way everyone SHOULD be doing it and he was wrong rather than the two of them being incompatible.


Galagirl hasn't had a polyamorous relationship for a long time which I do think influences her very mono-normative views where the primary or pre existing partner controls if and when the couple become open. Her language suggests that a "good" person would do this and a "bad" person wouldn't and that's patently untrue.

Calling (or agreeing) someone is an "NRE junkie" because they want to date after 5 months with a partner is ridiculous and I'd go as far as to say "anti poly". I don't think agreeing that someone who wants different to you is a bad guy and I don't think (in fact I know) the "proper" way to poly is to spend years making sure your monogamous partner is happy before you embark meaning that if they're not happy, you don't proceed unless you want to be labelled some sort of betrayer or guilty of abandoning a partner for frivolity.

Some people never stop dating or being open to new dates and because they're with people who aren't threatened by non-monogamy, it works. It's compatibility, not right or wrong. However, I can see why Galagirl's brand of "he owes you this" is attractive to monogamous people who feel entitled to the relationship they want regardless of how the other person feels.

While Galagirl is saying "walk away", she's saying "walk away" because she is agreeing he is a bad partner rather than a bad partner for her. And yes, that is highly problematic because he is relationshipping the way many poly people do and that's in a way that doesn't allow one relationship to control the tone and pace of others.

That's not how everyone plays - for some people the idea of anyone else having to consent for you to use your body as you wish is intolerable. Instead, they move towards knowledge and information over gaining permission. It isn't about right or wrong, it is about compatibility.

However,speaking as if a good or proper partner would do things "this way" and engage in 3somes and giving examples where they wasn't up for sharing details of their crushes and conquests as proof of their inability to poly shows someone who isn't versed in ethical non monogamy. There isn't "one twue way".

I think El Mango that you are also very inexperienced when it comes to polyamory and instead of being critical of my approach, listen to someone who is vast more experienced in the relationship style you wish to explore.

It's very important that people new to poly understand that there are several ways to structure relationships and you do not get to admonish people who will not play your way. Especially when it is through a lack of understanding on your behalf. Instead listen and learn from people who have had and still have these relationships and perhaps your partner selection will improve to a point where you have relationships with compatible partners rather than trying to guilt an incompatible partner into meeting your demands.

 

[GalaGirl]

Galagirl hasn't had a polyamorous relationship for a long time which I do think influences her very mono-normative views where the primary or pre existing partner controls if and when the couple become open. Her language suggests that a "good" person would do this and a "bad" person wouldn't and that's patently untrue.

I actually don't believe that the pre existing partner controls everything.

I think people can go ahead an arrange themselves however it is they want.

I just don't think this couple is compatible at this time. To me? He sounded like he wanted something more like solo poly. BirdsNest sounds like they wanted something closer to kitchen table poly. They both care about each other a lot... but sometimes love isn't enough.

Some people never stop dating or being open to new dates and because they're with people who aren't threatened by non-monogamy, it works. It's compatibility, not right or wrong.

Correct. People can date all their life. There is nothing wrong with that.

And you are also right -- it's about compatibility.

However, I can see why Galagirl's brand of "he owes you this" is attractive to monogamous people who feel entitled to the relationship they want regardless of how the other person feels.

I don't think he owes her anything. I do think he could have been clearer in his communication rather than giving mixed messages.

While Galagirl is saying "walk away", she's saying "walk away" because she is agreeing he is a bad partner rather than a bad partner for her.

To clarify, I was saying if BirdsNest is dealing with trauma healing, maybe this isn't the best time for them to be poly dating each other since their styles are so different. So if this keeps coming up over and over and adds to the stress load? It's ok to walk way from trying to date right now.

If it is better to be friends right now, be that.

If it is better to not be friends, then don't be friends. Take a break.

Maybe they get together again later on when both are in a better place and try dating again in future.

But if it keeps on dinging them, stop trying to make a romance to bloom right this minute if the people just have too different of styles at this time.

I'm not saying their styles are bad. Just that they aren't compatible ones right now.

It's very important that people new to poly understand that there are several ways to structure relationships and you do not get to admonish people who will not play your way.

Yes, people are free to arrange themselves however it is they want to if that's what works for them. If it isn't working? It's ok to stop and walk away.

And they did stop. They broke up.

Again, my sympathies BirdsNest. Healing from a break up will probably take some time. Hang in there.

Galagirl

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I want to give some examples of how this guy was judged for not agreeing to a pace and level of control that does not suit hime.

but he's not really helping to stabilize it.

This suggests the way to stabilize a relationship is appease the more monogamous partner. It could equally become stable by the more monogamous partner opening themselves to non-hierarchical polyamory or ending the relationship.

one needs a partner to go on that journey with

Solo poly is a thing.

I just think he's got his blinkers on and is being a bit naive about how these kinds of relationship work. He also felt overwhelmed a little by the intensity of some of the conversations we've had to have, it doesn't get any easier. That is the nature of the non-monogamy he asked for.

Assumption that the "nature" of non-monogamy corresponds with OPs needs and anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

The honeymoon is over after only four months and your partner is now looking for other relationships because yours is launched? I'd be petrified, too. That's an NRE junkie, not a stable partner.

Four months is a ridiculously short time to be already feeling the itch for more glitter. Four months is not a launched relationship, it's a sputter. Your own fears are telling you this loud and clear.

Some people date more in NRE for various reasons. Some people don't experience NRE. Some only experience it in the context of that relationship.

If he's determined to go at it like kid in a candy store?

Suggesting that anyone who prefers to date than appease their partners demands for hierarchy and control is immature rather than incompatible.

Is dating a driven/obessing guy with unresolved issues who is naive and reckless

He's naive and reckless because he won't appease her demands for a restrictive version of non-monogamy?

and is so bent on pursuing those, that he is neglecting his relationship with you. Clearly he is going about things in a dysfunctional way,

Here suggests he is obliged to sustain their relationship at the cost of others.

Do you know there are some personalities that view personal boundaries as a challenge to bust up?

the OP is attempting to set boundaries around other people's relationships, not their own. He isn't pushing her boundaries,he's fighting against the ones she is trying to put on him.

Then learn to say "Ok. Don't go."

Or have a relationship where telling your partner whether they should or shouldn't go somewhere is inappropriate. Many of us do.

he's starting to force the issue on me before I am ready.

Whether or not you need to be "ready" or just "informed" is a debate in the poly community. Some argue that being informed and choosing not to leave constitutes consent as "ready" implies a level of ownership and requirement for permission that counteracts personal autonomy.

until you asked him directly if he wanted to do free agent poly, and he said no. That's totally infuriating!

She asked if he want less emotional entanglement. "Free agent" polyamory doesn't mean "no/little emotional entanglement". Maybe he wants a highly entangled non-hierarchical polyamorous relationship which many of us have achieved.

He's not ready to do the work at this time.

He's not prepared to do the work that SHE will need to do to have a healthy poly relationship where nobody controls relationships they aren't in.

I can't even continue this, it makes me very irritated when people propose hierarchical polyamory and mononormativity as the right way to do things.

 

[BirdsNest]

Wow SEASONEDPoly - just wow. Your response to this thread comes off as paranoid.

I mean - if one wants a little bit of hierarchical poly, a little bit of 'mononormativity' to keep us feeling comfortable? That is ok too.

A recognition omitted from your entire dialogue, in your haste to critically shove arguments about semantics down my throat, which comes off as a desperate pursuit to receive validation.

SEASONEDPoly is a distraction not because 'They tell me things I don't want to hear' but because they've made this thread all about themselves.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Wow SEASONEDPoly - just wow. Your response to this thread comes off as paranoid.

I mean - if one wants a little bit of hierarchical poly, a little bit of 'mononormativity' to keep us feeling comfortable? That is ok too.

A recognition omitted from your entire dialogue, in your haste to critically shove arguments about semantics down my throat, which comes off as a desperate pursuit to receive validation.

SEASONEDPoly is a distraction not because 'They tell me things I don't want to hear' but because they've made this thread all about themselves.

It's certainly okay to want that but that means finding people who also want that. You don't get to want that and then say anyone who doesn't give it to you is wrong or bad at poly. That's the point. That's what you're doing here with the encouragement of people who should frankly know better.

Instead of lashing out defensively, listen to people who actually have these relationships and actively date and seek partners who want varieties of the same thing. If you can't handle a stranger on the internet pointing out that people want different things, imagine how difficult it would be for someone who is closer to you would feel telling you something that might disappoint you. I would be extremely wary and leave it until the absolute last minute so as not to deal with your wrath.

What you want isn't wrong, but it isn't the proper or right way of doing poly. It's the way YOU might need it be and that's okay. But don't go through life thinking anyone who doesn't want what you want is a bad partner. That's not going to work with anyone healthy - mono or poly.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

To me? He sounded like he wanted something more like solo poly. BirdsNest sounds like they wanted something closer.

Again, people who practice solo poly can have extremely "close" relationships. BirdsNest wants him to control the pace of his other relationships to fit where she is at this time. He doesn't think that works for him. They want different things. It's not for us to assume he doesn't want "closeness" and she does because she wants something that looks more like monogamy or at least hierarchical non monogamy and that meets mainstream views of a "close" relationship.

This encourages that chain of thought that "if we were doing things properly, we would be doing group sex first".

Language is incredibly important to changing mindset. There are forms of therapy that work on changing what you say to change how you think.

 

[BirdsNest]

Yeah I think he's just reeling from the ending of a serious relationship and needs time to process that. From other things he said, and his general demeanour, I don't think he will be a 'solo poly' kind of guy. I had previously suggested we break up, and that maybe he needed to be single for a bit. He didn't want to break up because we love each other.

We spoke recently and he apologised for not being clearer with his communication. Said he can't deal with the emotional responsibility of a relationship right now, has all these feelings of guilt going on and he may seek a poly-friendly therapist to hash it out with.

He'd like to be friends, i kind of would to but I'm a bit hurt so need space right now. He asked what I wanted and I said I'm torn between being ok with friends and telling him to come back once he's sorted his head out.

Right person wrong time.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Yeah I think he's just reeling from the ending of a serious relationship and needs time to process that. From other things he said, and his general demeanour, I don't think he will be a 'solo poly' kind of guy. I had previously suggested we break up, and that maybe he needed to be single for a bit. He didn't want to break up because we love each other.

We spoke recently and he apologised for not being clearer with his communication. Said he can't deal with the emotional responsibility of a relationship right now, has all these feelings of guilt going on and he may seek a poly-friendly therapist to hash it out with.

He'd like to be friends, i kind of would to but I'm a bit hurt so need space right now. He asked what I wanted and I said I'm torn between being ok with friends and telling him to come back once he's sorted his head out.

Right person wrong time.

You could do the 40 day no contact thing. It works positively for a lot of people.

 

[BirdsNest]

I'm going to do what I think is best instead of prescribing to a predefined deadline.

To be honest I'm keen to focus on my career for a bit. Working multiple jobs and trying to get recognised as an artist. That 'baby' has been in gestation for too long, I've exhibited, ran workshops, sold my work... it has legs but its crawling and I want it to one day be sprinting.

That and, buying a ticket to get the FUCK off Brexit Island at the end of the summer. East Asia appeals.

 

[GalaGirl]

To me? He sounded like he wanted something more like solo poly. BirdsNest sounds like they wanted something closer.

Again, people who practice solo poly can have extremely "close" relationships. BirdsNest wants him to control the pace of his other relationships to fit where she is at this time. He doesn't think that works for him. They want different things. It's not for us to assume he doesn't want "closeness" and she does because she wants something that looks more like monogamy or at least hierarchical non monogamy and that meets mainstream views of a "close" relationship.

I was having probs on my phone. I meant to finish writing "closer to kitchen table poly." I came back to correct it but you beat me to it.

The other stuff? SeasonedPoly, I was I trying to hear where Birdsnest was at and reflecting back their own words. If there is something I wrote that came across weird I'm usually willing to clarify if OP asks me. They didn't. I also generally figure if what I suggest doesn't work for them, they can pass it over.

Precisely because of what you say -- there is no one way to do poly. And sometimes people are not compatible.

If he's determined to go at it like kid in a candy store?

Suggesting that anyone who prefers to date than appease their partners demands for hierarchy and control is immature rather than incompatible.

I was alluding to the "kid in a candy store" pitfall because Birdsnest was frustrated/concerned about that with her partner.

http://practicalpolyamory.com/images/A._Wagner_-_Avoid_the_Pitfalls_of_Polyamory.pdf

Birdsnest also seemed to realize that they are "too full right now" to poly date well. BF also sounds like he figured that out too. To full from his other things right now. He is thinking about counseling next.

We spoke recently and he apologised for not being clearer with his communication. Said he can't deal with the emotional responsibility of a relationship right now, has all these feelings of guilt going on and he may seek a poly-friendly therapist to hash it out with.

He'd like to be friends, i kind of would to but I'm a bit hurt so need space right now. He asked what I wanted and I said I'm torn between being ok with friends and telling him to come back once he's sorted his head out.

Right person wrong time.

Glad you guys talked some more, Birdsnest. But yeah... just maybe not the right time now.

I think if you want to focus on work and travel and your trauma healing? Go for it.

You seem to have gotten what you needed for now and like you want to be done with this thread, so I'll wish you well.

Galagirl

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

The other stuff? SeasonedPoly, I was I trying to hear where Birdsnest was at and reflecting back their own words. If there is something I wrote that came across weird I'm usually willing to clarify if OP asks me. They didn't. I also generally figure if what I suggest doesn't work for them, they can pass it over.

The issue with doing this is that you're reinforcing incorrect beliefs by repeating that language. It's a bit like with a child - when they say something wrong, you repeat what they were meant to say correctly. You don't reinforce the belief by also saying the word/phrase incorrectly. So she spoke about him actively dating, that's what it is. Even if she refers to it as frenzied or whatever. You don't add judgement by infantilizing his actions and making him seem greedy and selfish (kid in the candy store). It would be like calling the OP some phrase that means fascist dictator because she needs to slow down.

So someone comes in and says "I tried poly and it didn't work out because my partner wouldn't tell me all the details about sex details like poly people should". Instead of saying that not everyone does things that way and it is in no way a prerequisite for a healthy and ethical relationship, you speak as if their requirement is standard and the partner was bad at poly. Instead of it being a neutral incompatibility where people want different things, it becomes a character incompatibility where it is insinuated that people who want what he wants are somehow lacking or flawed.

When this is a person new to poly, that means they've left the conversation firstly validated that the nice lady understands why they feel (and agrees they should feel) aggrieved by this horrible monster who deceived them and that she understands what a "proper" poly relationship looks like (one steeped in hierarchy and mononormativity/go the pace of the slowest person).

This means they are harsh in their judgement of others and most importantly, it does nothing to improve their partner selection. They still go for the same type of person who seems nice enough and then when they won't appease their need for hierarchy/mononormativity, they cast them as another cheating monster.

Overall, it does nothing to help poly people at all.

 

[MeeraReed]

Birdsnest, SeasonedPoly is making really good points and isn't trolling you. Your ex wanted a completely different style of poly from you. He isn't the right person at the wrong time, he's the wrong person for you.

However, I don't think the burden of figuring this out should have been totally on you. He failed to communicate what he wanted. Maybe he wanted to do free agent poly / solo poly / autonomous poly WITH emotional entanglement (which is the style I do, for the record, and so does my partner of 7+ years). But he does have to communicate that desire to you. It sounds like you tried a lot of conversations with him and he wasn't able to articulate what he wanted in terms of non-monogamy.

Again, though, SeasonedPoly is right about how advice for poly people--even on poly forums--often doesn't advocate much for autonomous poly (or solo or free agent, whatever you call it). That could be why your ex had so much trouble communicating what he wanted--there is little poly advice about it, but LOTS of advice about slowly opening via threesomes, etc.

As a free agent poly person, it took me YEARS to be able to articulate that I wanted love and closeness AND the freedom to be totally autonomous about other relationships. For a long time, I thought I didn't have the right to both things.

SeasonedPoly is trying to say that loving, free agent poly also works, for people who want that. I think your ex will be fine--he doesn't need to mature or get over the "kid in a candy store attitude." He just needs to meet people who want the same type of poly that he does.

His difficulties in communicating to you might simply be incompatibility. Until I met my partner 7 years ago, I felt like I struggled with communication because I had a hard time articulating that I wanted loving relationships AND to be a free agent. But with my partner, he got it right away, because he also wanted the same thing.

So sometimes communication problems aren't one person having "issues," it's two people being incompatible.

 

[FallenAngelina]

... LOTS of advice about slowly opening via threesomes, etc.

I get what you both are saying about free agent/ solo poly but I have never seen anyone here advise that threesomes are a preferred way to start poly relationships. I was the one who used the term "NRE junkie" and I'll stand by my bias that perpetually open relationships right out of the gate would be disconcerting for most people, poly or not, but that's just my perspective. Everyone here is free to take or leave any and all comments. There are no gurus. I'll claim my own limited experience with poly, but will also say that Galagirl hardly needs to be schooled on inclusiveness of speech. There's a good bit of nitpicking going on in this thread that does not reflect nor serve the wider discussion on this forum. Of course there are many ways do to poly. It's been my experience that we all know that. The finger wagging is just not necessary.

 

[ref2018]

I have never seen anyone here advise that threesomes are a preferred way to start poly relationships.

Not here. On reddit, facebook, and in blogs/podcasts.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

That's why it's important to reinforce that there are many valid ways to do polyamory. This nearly never happens on forums but if someone came in and said that their partner is bad at poly or fake because they need more hierarchy/influence, I would immediately say that doesn't make them fake or bad at all.

In fact, some of what the OP said about "gossiping", I associate with the less "conservative" poly player. The same with group sex. Some of my friends in the most successful poly relationships by traditional measurements (kids, longevity, etc) would have to see their partners have sex with anyone else. And some of those people are in triads!

 

[MeeraReed]

I get what you both are saying about free agent/ solo poly but I have never seen anyone here advise that threesomes are a preferred way to start poly relationships. I was the one who used the term "NRE junkie" and I'll stand by my bias that perpetually open relationships right out of the gate would be disconcerting for most people, poly or not, but that's just my perspective. Everyone here is free to take or leave any and all comments. There are no gurus. I'll claim my own limited experience with poly, but will also say that Galagirl hardly needs to be schooled on inclusiveness of speech. There's a good bit of nitpicking going on in this thread that does not reflect nor serve the wider discussion on this forum. Of course there are many ways do to poly. It's been my experience that we all know that. The finger wagging is just not necessary.

Sure, but the OP was the one who suggested that opening via threesomes & kink nights might be the best way to start over and get into poly the "right" way. No one except SeasonedPoly called her out on that.

(And I don't think that the OP was saying that that was the way she WANTED to do poly, more like that was what she had HEARD would work better. So I think it was reasonable for SeasonedPoly to offer another perspective.)

This discussion may no longer be serving the OP's original question/ problem, though, at this point. However, I strongly disagree that this thread doesn't reflect / serve the wider discussion of the forum...there are a lot of really good points raised here. I think I'll start a General Discussion topic because we've veered from what the OP wanted advice on.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I strongly disagree that this thread doesn't reflect / serve the wider discussion of the forum...there are a lot of really good points raised here.

The topic of poly choices is great, but the school marm tone isn't helpful. We discuss poly options around here every day, so nobody needs to be "called out." Newer folks are often informed on this board that there are multiple options in poly beside the one they may have initially assumed. There are many ways to mention that without admonishing others for not having done so already. We have many solo poly members of this community - it's hardly a new or unrepresented concept around here.

 

[BirdsNest]

As the OP I feel pretty attacked by some of the comments on this thread at time when I'm in distress.

It hardly speaks of compassion on the part of the commentators.

I'm aware there is more than one way to do things and I'm not at all new to poly either.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

It's easy to "take" the comments that validate your position and "leave" the ones that don't when you're feeling low. The issue is that it becomes easy to use that input to create a blurred version of right vs wrong.

 

[ElMango]

It's easy to "take" the comments that validate your position and "leave" the ones that don't when you're feeling low. The issue is that it becomes easy to use that input to create a blurred version of right vs wrong.

This is why I say approach things with a tone based in empathy. You can make the exact same point without it sounding like an attack.
Empathy usually makes people more apt to listen, while calling people out and using 'tough love' makes people defensive. There is no point making people feel hurt and distressed because if you honestly don't care if you're making people, HURT (not just uncomfortable with the advice given), and ATTACKED you're just being mean.
Honesty without tact is cruelty.

You can agree with the differing opinion, but still react poorly because it feels like an attack. HUmans are human, emotions can cloud judgement, but acting like that is super unreasonable and just being "tough" is. above all, pointless. No advice is listened to, it already has a negative connotation.

And if people are giving advice, based on their experience, that happens to agree with OP, doesn't automatically make it incorrect advice; it doesn't automatically make it the best solution to their issue either.

And since OP has clearly stated that mainly the tone of things being said it what is distressing, that should be respected. If we don't respect that, how are we not being jerks?