Opening marriage or breaking up?

[polygone]

For as far as I remember, I've never really had a satisfactory sexual life with my wife. I am totally aware that years of marriage / kids can spoil the sex, but it's just that with my wife it's never really been great. There is a lack of passion, too much inhibition on her side.

I made tremendous efforts to try and keep it interesting, she's very slowly opened up, but we've known each other for 23 years now and the progress is simply too slow. There is simply no eroticism in our relationship.

I've had great sex partners before, and sadly, after her, where everything was so much simpler, more spontaneous, more passionate, and I have come to the conclusion that there is no way I can turn this around with her.

The other issue in my marriage is that I feel my wife is a control freak. I often hear that all wives are like that, but I can see how her own parents struggle with how she is bossing around everyone, and when they visit, it always ends up in fights between her and them.

The latter problem is something I've gradually managed to work around, but my sexual misery is something I just decided I can simply not live with anymore.

I mentionned very timidly that I felt her interest for sex was so limited that I was wondering if it would really bother her if I had sex outside. I honestly would be very happy if she had an affair, I think that her lack sexual experience before we met has impaired her development during our marriage, and meeting someone else might widen her horizons. However, for all kinds of moral / religious / health reasons (she's a hygiene freak, among others), the concept of extra-marital sex is simply not conceivable to her.

She comes up with many arguments about me 'imagining' that it would be any better with other girls, when in fact it wouldn't, that I am just thinking the grass is greener on the other side, but the truth is that this is not my imagination, it is simply a fact that I've experienced first hand with a couple of girls. Obviously, because this was all done behind her back, I cannot explain to her that it is just the truth and not some fantasy. I have hard proof that there are girls out there who don't have all her inhibitions, who are not afraid to tell a man when they're horny, who are fine being on all fours on a bed in broad daylight.

So my questions are
1) should I try to persevere on trying to open up our marriage?
2) should I simply cut my losses, at the expense of breaking up what is otherwise a good relationship?
3) should I keep lying to her and lead a double life?
4) any other suggestion?

I should mention that my wife is a genuinely good person, she is an extraordinary mother, she is beautiful, smart, witty, and artistic, and no matter what happens, she will always be the woman of my life. I spent more than half my life with her, and I would never want her out of my life. We have a lot of common passions and activities.

 

[GalaGirl]

FWIW? My opinion?

1) should I try to persevere on trying to open up our marriage?

No.

2) should I simply cut my losses, at the expense of breaking up what is otherwise a good relationship?

Yes. You could end the marriage. Clearly you two are not sexually compatible. It's been 20 something years -- so why pretend?

You could focus on a peaceful divorce and then work on cultivating a good co-parenting relationship after divorce. A relationship that fits you guys better rather than trying to square peg/round hole or leading a double life.

3) should I keep lying to her and lead a double life?

No. Because that is not giving HER a "good relationship." And it's not letting you live authentically. The options I can see?

• You could be honest about the cheating affairs and apologize. And divorce. (This would be were I would go.)
  
• You could stop cheating and say nothing about the affairs. And try to repair marriage/improve sex. (Another way to go, but given 2 decades, doesn't seem likely.)
  
• You could say nothing about the cheating affairs. And divorce. (Another way to go.)
  
• But continuing to stay in a marriage where you lead a double life, do lies of omission, and sneak around to cheat? Doesn't seem great for either of you. (I would not do this one. )

I think you could clean things up so you can live your life more authentically. It seems to weigh on you right now.

Galagirl

 

[Inyourendo]

Just end it, I've been in your shoes, begged for an.open marriage, cheated. In the end I left and am now way happier with someone who is compatible with me

 

[BlueShoes]

How is this a good relationship? What parts of it are good? What do you like about her? What do you enjoy doing with her?

Because what you've described here is a sexually unsatisfying relationship with someone you call a control freak. To whom you are constantly lying. I'm not seeing the selling points.

 

[polygone]

FWIW? My opinion?
Yes. You could end the marriage. Clearly you two are not sexually compatible. It's been 20 something years -- so why pretend?

Well as much as I think sex is extremely important, I would have thought that a marriage has all kind of other dimensions to it.

I think you could clean things up so you can live your life more authentically. It seems to weigh on you right now.

It does weigh on me, but as in many things in life, there are ups and downs. Sometimes things temporarily improve, a few weeks pass at home without major crisis, and then I feel like it would be a shame to get into a divorce which is guaranteed to be a long crisis in itself. But when I write things down on this forum, I realize that I am not going to be happy in the long run if I stay in this relationship.

 

[GalaGirl]

I realize that I am not going to be happy in the long run if I stay in this relationship.

It takes time to arrive at final acceptance. You sound like you are on your way there.

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one.

Galagirl

 

[polygone]

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one.

Nice quote. The way I put it to her a while back when I felt that sexually we had not made much progress is that I felt that I was kind of halfway my sexual life, and I did not intend my second half to be as dull as the first one...

 

[FeatherFool]

Nice quote. The way I put it to her a while back when I felt that sexually we had not made much progress is that I felt that I was kind of halfway my sexual life, and I did not intend my second half to be as dull as the first one...

I hope you didn't actually say that to her: that sounds to me like it would be a pretty hurtful thing to say. Just because her sex is not your idea of good sex, doesn't mean her sex is wrong. It's just hers, like yours is yours. Some people would prefer a vanilla ice cream cone, some people would prefer to order a Rocky Road Peanut Buster Parfait dressed in a French maid uniform. We all have our things! Unfortunately, sometimes we just aren't interested in trying someone's else's idea of delicious, or maybe even end up regretting trying it. Sometimes, the different things people enjoy just cannot coexist.

Have you two had a sit-down, clothes-on discussion about the mismatch between your ideas of good sex? Was she a consenting and fully informed participant in your previous attempted grooming of her sexual behaviours? I sincerely hope she was.

Each of us have different needs and wants, and it's our job to make sure they are met. We can ask our partners if they are willing to provide us those things, but they have the right to refuse- for whatever reason, or no reason at all- and vice versa. Reading between the lines, it seems to me like she has been communicating what she is and is not comfortable with, sexually speaking. Good for her. If she decides that experimenting is not for her? That is okay: she may ultimately have decided that she likes her sex just as it is. What isn't okay is riding her for her choices about her sex. Make your own choices, and then pull up your big boy pants and live with the consequences.

I have to say, from what I read, you don't speak about her very lovingly. You describe her as:

- inhibited
- control freak
- bossy
- developmentally impaired
- hygiene freak
- slow to progress
- dull

Ouch! In addition, you expected her to form to your sexual needs, despite you clearly stating she has several reasons that she would not want to do so. You broke the agreement of exclusivity between you two by cheating, followed by lies of omission. Followed by... asking us for reassurance that it would be okay to keep doing that? Or... something? That's not being a good partner, and it's not even being a very good friend.

I am getting the feeling that there are more problems here than "simply" (it's never actually simple) a sexual mismatch.

 

[FallenAngelina]

You broke the agreement of exclusivity between you two by cheating, followed by lies of omission. Followed by... asking us for reassurance that it would be okay to keep doing that? Or... something? That's not being a good partner, and it's not even being a very good friend.

If I may.....it's almost impossible for a 29 year old to see the perspective of a much older person who was forged and bound by the very real and stringent social strictures of earlier decades. I know that in the poly world, "cheating" is just about the worst offense, but in many people's lives, this is often chosen as the most compassionate option for all at the time. Many people can't even begin to fathom the poly concept and most who do, think that it's insane. Probably the majority of long married people would rather their spouse quiety see another and spare everyone the social and personal humilation of a visibly open relationship. It's hard for many poly people to understand that sometimes "cheating" is the most compassionate choice, but I do. I'm 55 and was in a 17 year marriage that was great, but the sex was abysmal. In my "advanced" years, I have met many others who have been married for decades, have formed a wonderful life and family, have a web of lifetime connections with their spouse and then meet another with whom they are simply much better suited. It's not the same as when you're in your 20s or 30s and so much of life is still ahead and your connections just aren't that old. Many long married people opt for "cheating" as the only way that they can conceive of preserving the marriage, the family and the community they've built over the decades. It's not the choice of poly people, but it's also not always an indication of being a "bad" partner.

That said, polygone, divorce is not guaranteed to be a long crisis. I asked my husband for an open marriage. The words I used were, "We aren't sexually compatible" because FeatherFool is right that this is a mismatch more than it's anyone's character flaw. We tried the open marriage. He hated it. Fair enough. Now we are parting, but slowly and amicably and we still have a good friendship and many of the wonderful things that we shared as a couple. Divorce need not be a nightmare.

 

[BlueShoes]

So... how old is Polygone, and at what age might some other poster suggest that he does seem, in his cheating, to be big rather unkind to his wife?

 

[FallenAngelina]

So... how old is Polygone, and at what age might some other poster suggest that he does seem, in his cheating, to be big rather unkind to his wife?

I imagine that almost everyone here will disagree with my post above, no matter their age. Polygone speaks of a 23 year marriage, so I assume he is in the "mature" age range. I'm not saying that he is or is not being unkind, just that "cheating" is not always, in every case, a terrible thing. Sometimes it is the most compassionate option at the time. A decades long marriage in which there is sexual incompatibility, but otherwise a lot to appreciate, is one such example. Openly asking for sexual freedom is an incredibly new concept in this world and many people think of it as the worst kind of disrespect. As we often say here, most people can wrap their heads around affairs more than they can imagine polyamory or open marriage. Many people choose "cheating" not because they are cowardly and selfish, but because that is the option that truly would be easier on their spouse, family and community.

 

[BlueShoes]

Polygone also speaks of his relationship as being "more than half" of his life, which caps his age at 46-ish. Exactly what social conditions pertain to him is an open question.

Sometimes quietly cheating is the compassionate option, but it requires thoughtful management.

 

[polygone]

I imagine that almost everyone here will disagree with my post above, no matter their age. Polygone speaks of a 23 year marriage, so I assume he is in the "mature" age range. I'm not saying that he is or is not being unkind, just that "cheating" is not always, in every case, a terrible thing. Sometimes it is the most compassionate option at the time. A decades long marriage in which there is sexual incompatibility, but otherwise a lot to appreciate, is one such example. Openly asking for sexual freedom is an incredibly new concept in this world and many people think of it as the worst kind of disrespect. As we often say here, most people can wrap their heads around affairs more than they can imagine polyamory or open marriage. Many people choose "cheating" not because they are cowardly and selfish, but because that is the option that truly would be easier on their spouse, family and community.

FallenAngelina, thanks for your compassion. I may not deserve it as much, but your post highlights the fact that things are not so black or white as people want to make it look.

To take an analogy, I remember how, when I was a teenager, some of my friends who were hiding the most and/or lying to their parents, were those who had the strictest parents. It would have been easy to judge them as being dishonest, but the truth is that if you are put in a position where rules are simply unfair and not negotiable, you have the choice between abiding by them (which is very frustrating), breaking them openly (which can makes things worse), or secretly break them. The last option seems to be the preferred one.

As for why cheating can have some benefits: the first time I cheated on my wife was for a few weeks with someone who I befriended at work while my wife was abroad. That girl gave me very compassionate advice and our affair ended when her work assignment ended and she returned to her home state. I had no affairs for many years, and to this day we are still friends. When the affair ended, I suddenly got the strength to stand up to my wife and be more demanding, as a result of which my marriage simply became better.

To many people I will appear as a coward or a spineless guy who can never stand up to his ideas, but the truth is that I am simply very easy going, not demanding at all, and I clearly need validation from people around me (maybe due to some shortcomings in my childhood), and so I may have gotten myself in relationships where I was accepting more things than I should have. I wish I was a tougher negotiator, I wish I could withhold love when I see people not treating me as I deserve, but I am simply so terrified of not getting the love I need that I give up way too quickly. Over the years I toughened up, and hopefully I am now much more mature to rectify any relationship going in a direction that doesn't suit me than I was when I met my wife.

 

[BlueShoes]

I am simply very easy going, not demanding at all, and I clearly need validation from people around me (maybe due to some shortcomings in my childhood), and so I may have gotten myself in relationships where I was accepting more things than I should have. I wish I was a tougher negotiator, I wish I could withhold love when I see people not treating me as I deserve, but I am simply so terrified of not getting the love I need that I give up way too quickly.

That's an issue for a therapist. External validation is never going to sufficiently fill an internal hole.

 

[polygone]

I hope you didn't actually say that to her: that sounds to me like it would be a pretty hurtful thing to say. Just because her sex is not your idea of good sex, doesn't mean her sex is wrong. It's just hers, like yours is yours. Some people would prefer a vanilla ice cream cone, some people would prefer to order a Rocky Road Peanut Buster Parfait dressed in a French maid uniform. We all have our things! Unfortunately, sometimes we just aren't interested in trying someone's else's idea of delicious, or maybe even end up regretting trying it. Sometimes, the different things people enjoy just cannot coexist.

Have you two had a sit-down, clothes-on discussion about the mismatch between your ideas of good sex? Was she a consenting and fully informed participant in your previous attempted grooming of her sexual behaviours? I sincerely hope she was.

I am not going to enter into details, but when you say that her 'good sex' might not be wrong is simply not true. There are some absolutes in all fields, and it's not simply a question of 'compatibility'. When it gets to the point where
- her body is like a minefield where the slightest deviation to the permitted 'route' is a complete turn-off for her (oral sex either way is simply off-limits, so when I start kissing her on the stomach I can already hear red alerts ringing)
- she demands complete darkness to have sex
- she's alwasy cold, so she needs everything to happen under the blankets, even if it's 90 degrees there
- she will never want to have sex unless I've had a shower less than a few hours ago
- she will mostly always make it so that we have sex right before going to sleep rather than in the middle of the afternoon or even early evening
- she does everything to keep herself quiet during sex, all I get as feedback of her climax is a big sigh when she comes


If a forum member was complaining about their partner offering a very narrow part of their heart / their feelings, I doubt anyone would say that the partner is not 'compatible'. They would just say that the partner is cold and not committed to attend to the happiness of that member. And for some reason when it comes to sex, the assumption is automatically that there is no 'compatibility'?

What baffles me with all the people judging cheaters is that our society has such unrealistic expectations about monogamy. How can it be that people promess each other to be faithful to each other forever, and at the same time there is no promess of 'I will make everything I can to make you happy in bed'. How come people are so easy to judge someone who's cheating for breaking their vows, and no one ever judges someone for not making any effort to keep the other happy in the bedroom? The main reason is that it's more black/white to observe that someone is cheating (the cheater is a coward, a lier, is dishonest), than to observe that someone is not doing the effort in the bedroom (the person cheated is not doing anything wrong, they are just 'sexually incompatible'). But that is not a good reason. Cheaters deserve as much compassion as people not generous with their partners in the bedroom, and the latter are as guilty about the situation as the former.

 

[polygone]

That's an issue for a therapist. External validation is never going to sufficiently fill an internal hole.

Absolutely. I am not saying it's right to seek validation. I was just pointing out why I may have done bad choices.

 

[BlueShoes]

Refusing to join you in hating your wife's sexual needs and desires. They appear to be the needs of someone who's pretty uncomfortable with her body and her partner, and that's tragic, but they aren't wrong. You don't have some kind of right to have sex with your wife with the blankets off and the lights on.

One of the difficult lines to walk is that while, of course it would be lovely for everyone in a committed relationship to do whatever they could to make their partner happy in bed, everyone STILL has a right to their own boundaries. It is not okay for sex to become an experience in which one person overrides another in order to obtain pleasure. This is supposed to be a mutual thing. If you can't get to a reasonably satisfactory place on mutual pleasure, that's something to act on, and there are options for acting on it. Insisting that someone else's needs and boundaries are wrong is not acceptable.

 

[polygone]

Refusing to join you in hating your wife's sexual needs and desires. They appear to be the needs of someone who's pretty uncomfortable with her body and her partner, and that's tragic, but they aren't wrong. You don't have some kind of right to have sex with your wife with the blankets off and the lights on.

One of the difficult lines to walk is that while, of course it would be lovely for everyone in a committed relationship to do whatever they could to make their partner happy in bed, everyone STILL has a right to their own boundaries. It is not okay for sex to become an experience in which one person overrides another in order to obtain pleasure. This is supposed to be a mutual thing. If you can't get to a reasonably satisfactory place on mutual pleasure, that's something to act on, and there are options for acting on it. Insisting that someone else's needs and boundaries are wrong is not acceptable.

I am not asking anyone to hate her desires. I am just saying that in any other field, if a partner is not doing what 99.9% of people consider is what partners should do in a relationship, everybody would be supportive of the person complaining not getting them. I don't see why sex is the one area where everything's permitted and even the most relationship-destructing 'boundaries' need to be respected. It's simply not consistent.

 

[BlueShoes]

You don't have a right to use f someone else's body. Ever.

In other areas, I hear people saying that what you can ask should be proportional to what you can offer. The board is supportive of people being free to have their emotional needs met through a variety of strategies.

You and your wife are sexual incompatible. So sad. But her sexual needs and wants are not some kind of offense against you.

 

[FeatherFool]

If I may.....it's almost impossible for a 29 year old to see the perspective of a much older person who was forged and bound by the very real and stringent social strictures of earlier decades.

Our behaviours are choices, and should not be excused by "but my parents", "but culture", or even "but my wife". I was raised in a highly restrictive atmosphere- familial, social, and cultural- until my early twenties. I choose to be different than the way I was raised. If you are aware of your bias, you can address it. I believe that we can choose to be more than the products of our histories. I suppose you are welcome to discount my words due to my age if you wish. It does not change my feeling that the OP's disrespectful word choice, repeated dismissal of his wife's needs as valid, etc, is not how a good friend acts: irrespective of if cheating is ever a good choice or not. I was referring to his apparent behaviours as a whole, not to the cheating in specific.

You and your wife are sexual incompatible. So sad. But her sexual needs and wants are not some kind of offense against you.

Yes, this. Very much this.