Please help

[Infinity]

Hi OP. Seeing as no one has brought it up yet, I wanted to bring your focus onto the subject of your current relationship with girlfriend. I am going to give the people in your story nicknames so I can keep up with them.

Your 2.5 years girlfriend --> Marcia
Her younger sister --> Jan

OK, so there seem to be TWO issues here. One of these is that you are in love with Jan, as well as Marcia. My reading of the posts was a bit confused, but my understanding is that Jan may have appeared to reciprocate your feelings *at some point*, but has also backed off, become distant, and is stating she doesn't want a boyfriend at this time.

That's ONE of the issues.

The OTHER issue seems, to me, to be the bigger one. And that is, that you have discovered you are poly. Your girlfriend, Marcia, states she is not OK with that idea at all and could never consider sharing you. Marcia is not only *not poly*, she is *not poly friendly*. That is, it's not just that *she* doesn't want to have multiple relationships - she isn't comfortable being with someone who *does* want to have multiple relationships.

And yet you still want to marry her "someday", despite this huge incompatibility? Have you stepped back and reassessed the situation since you had this conversation and she told you "No way, Jose!"? Marrying her, as things stand, means you are essentially signing up to be mono for life, despite the fact you are poly. That could be very, very difficult.

If you continue in your relationship with Marcia, here are the possibilities:

1. You continue with Marcia, marrying her. She eventually comes around, accepts you being poly and is OK with you dating others. (How likely is this?)

2. You continue in relationship with Marcia. She is never OK with you dating others. You eventually break up with her due to incompatibility and maybe have to get divorced. It hurts and is worse than if you'd just broken up now.

3. You continue in relationship with Marcia. She is never OK with you dating others, so you cheat on her to get some of your needs met. As a result, you have a relationship of lies, mistrust and not poly at all.

4. You continue in relationship with Marcia. She is never OK with you dating others. Your poly soul slowly withers and dies. You feel you're never really allowed to be your true self and you resent her eventually.

5. You continue in relationship with Marcia. She is never ok with you dating others, but you are OK with this and have a happy time with her.

I have put options 2, 3 and 4 in red - because all of those involve MORE pain than just breaking up now because you're not compatible. ALL of those involve STAYING in a toxic relationship where at least one, and probably BOTH, partners are deeply unhappy.

Breaking up now would be better than 2, 3 and 4. HOWEVER, if you want to stay together, and you want a happy relationship, then EITHER options 1 or 5 need to be viable.

Are they?

Is she open to working TOWARDS being OK with you dating others in tangible ways? Is she willing to educate herself and talk with you about it? (option 1).

Are you OK with knowing you are poly and never, ever being allowed to act on it within the current boundaries of your relationship? (option 5).

If neither option 1 or option 5 are even possible, then it seems the cleanest thing to do is break up now. Because you're not long term compatible and as a poly, you need partners that are ok with you actively living a poly life. Not hiding or squishing part of yourself to keep your partner happy.

Something to think about. While breaking up would suck, if you're just not compatible then it's better.

------------------
That brings us to Jan. First, some very good points have been made here, three of which I want to reiterate:

1. In your CURRENT relationship agreements, it would be cheating to pursue Jan (including keeping on trying to flirt with her and send her sexual signals) and could damage a family. So, don't.

2. There is nothing intrinsically WRONG with dating two siblings, if all are consenting, informed adults. Some may have an 'ick' reaction, that's OK, it means it is not for them.

3. Just because you are infatuated with someone, does NOT mean you have to act on it. Learning to distance yourself from the infatuation and let it die off would be a very good skill for you to learn. Even IF you are in an actively poly relationship, there are still situations where it's not appropriate to pursue an infatuation. To add to this, realise that Jan may currently represent to you the fact that you're 'not allowed' to act on your poly instincts, and so all of your wanting to be poly and act like a poly person could have been projected onto this one person.

Then, I want to add to this discussion: there are only TWO scenarios I can see where you can pursue a relationship with Jan:

1. You break up with Marcia.

2. You stay with Marcia and NOT ONLY is she ok with you being poly, she is OK with you having a relationship with Jan also.

THEN, once one of those were in place, you would have to find out:

1. Is Jan interested in you? Her current actions say NO. It's possible that she IS interested but avoids you because of sister. It's also possible she was being friendly because you're her sister's partner, but now you've been coming on 'too strong' and she realises you saw way more in it than she meant, so she is backing off and giving you a clear NO message. Some people are friendly, welcoming and close to family member's partners because they consider them 'like family', and it's never even in their heads that this person might have a sexual interest in them. It's very possible that Jan's previous warmth towards you was nothing more than that. In fact, it's more likely given that she is now avoiding you instead of pursuing you.

2. If you broke up with Marcia, is Jan OK with dating Marcia's ex?

3. If you and Marcia are together AND Marcia is ok with you being actively poly AND Marcia is OK with you dating Jan, is JAN ok with you being actively poly and dating Marcia?

4. Either way, is Jan ok with having an actively poly partner? (if NO, then you're back in the same quandry as you were with Marcia).

-------------------

Short version:

You and Marcia are not compatible. Either you need to break up, or you need to become OK with never acting on your poly nature, or she needs to become ok with you acting on your poly nature. If neither of those can happen, you should break up now to save more heartache in the long term.

Just because you have a crush on Jan, doesn't mean you have to keep having a crush / being in love / being infatuated.

In order to have a relationship with Jan, at all, EVER, a LOT of pieces would have to fall into place, and that's IF she's even interested in you. It's a long shot.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi sdl93,

I don't have a problem with the idea of dating both your girlfriend and her sister, on the condition that all three of you know what's going on and are consenting to it. The main problem right now is that you and your girlfriend differ on whether to make polyamory a part of your lives. Unless you can come to an agreement about that, you both have a life of unhappiness ahead of you. I'm assuming you do not consider breaking up with your girlfriend to be an available option.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[Tinwen]

For the record - I am poly. My husband is poly. My sister is also poly. If my husband ever wanted to get involved with my sister? Pretty sure we'd have years of therapy just for suggesting it. If he attempted it, we'd be done.

I am sure many people feel that way.
I don't have a sister, so not sure what my take would be on it. I just want to say, that I can imagine that someone feels the other way round: not enthusiastic about poly, but ... sister? She's family already, right?

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

I am sure many people feel that way.
I don't have a sister, so not sure what my take would be on it. I just want to say, that I can imagine that someone feels the other way round: not enthusiastic about poly, but ... sister? She's family already, right?

Family, yes. Affecting my sexual health and relationship, no.

 

[2muchlove]

Hi OP, just wanted to pop in to say you're not alone. I think i'm the member referred to earlier in the thread but i did get a slight roasting too, it wasnt all helpful suggestions on how to break this to my husband! Haha

I don't think there's any easy answers here tbh. I've lived this way for 8yrs now, you can't turn feelings off. Yeah, you can not act on them and live with daily pain and turmoil. That's where i'm at. Until i make a decision and act on it, that's how i'll stay i dont have the option of removing myself from tge brother, husband wont leave him and their business. So, this is just me now, unless i want to strike out on my own and split my daughter's happy family (she loves her uncle like a 2nd dad too)

 

[Infinity]

Living with 'daily pain' isn't being in love and it isn't poly. It's fostering an unhealthy infatuation. I hope this doesn't upset the OP or anyone else here, as that's not my intent. I just wanted to point out that, as 2muchlove said, the only way *out* of this situation is to make a decision - and that doesn't have to be a decision to act on the infatuation. It can be a decision to move on from it and stop fostering the longing.

Only from a place of emotional and mental well-being can you make the best decisions for your life. And yearning is not that place of well-being. So my suggestion is to move on from the yearning first, then decide about poly.

Yearning is *not* love. Love fills you up and is about appreciating someone and valuing, whether you get something back or not. Love is being full of appreciation and allowing that to flow outwards, because it is natural to you to love. Yearning is about longing and missing someone, and feeling bad because you want something back from them. And only you can stop that.

Also, often when we yearn for someone, they represent some part of ourselves that we feel is missing or unexpressed. They are reflecting back that inner turmoil to us. So really, the situation they present is a gift, to show us what's going on inside.

 

[2muchlove]

I think it's really hard to definitively say what love is or isn't. Everyone probably has a different experience.

I know myself though that my feelings don't have much if anything to do with getting something back. When I love someone, I just want to give. I am a very independent person, not needy in the slightest; any (ETA: "romantic") relationship with my BIL would not be about filling a hole of any kind (ahem ), if that's what you meant.

 

[tenK]

Genuine question - these two statements seem at odds with one another.

I've lived this way for 8yrs now, you can't turn feelings off. Yeah, you can not act on them and live with daily pain and turmoil. That's where i'm at. Until i make a decision and act on it, that's how i'll stay

I know myself though that my feelings don't have much if anything to do with getting something back. When I love someone, I just want to give. I am a very independent person, not needy in the slightest

If love to you means needing to receive nothing else back, why the pain and turmoil? Is it just that you need the love recognised by others in order for it to not feel like a secret, but that you need no further reciprocal action on the part of the other person? Or is it something else?

To me, love is an actionable emotion, and it requires reciprocity to be more than a one-sided attraction/affection. That goes for friendships as much as romantic partnerships. Without reciprocity it's just a thought in my head, and if I then go on to nurture that and pine away for reciprocity where there is none, then it's an unhealthy one at that.

Now I'll admit, I'm someone who has sometimes been the target of other people's one-sided affections (ranging in severity up to all-out stalking attempts, and to it being a contributing factor in my platonic friend's suicidal feelings), so perhaps my experience has been skewed somewhat by that. But nevertheless, I do find it really uncomfortable when people equate crush-like feelings with deep romance or love. Without mutuality there, without the other person opening up to you with a view to being known on an intimate level, and having a desire to know you on an intimate level too, then the 'person' you are 'falling in love with' is nothing more than an idea(l) that you have conjured up yourself. A fantasy. Now, most fantasies in life are pretty harmless - beneficial on occasions too. However, when the object of your fantasy is a living breathing person in your life, and you are obsessing on them and spending your time with them hunting out for signs and little ways to extract gratification of that fantasy from them, then I have to say that is unhealthy. Whether it's your brother in law, your sister in law, your work-mate, or the postman. If not seeing them for some reason, or them not returning your smile one day, actually has an impact on your day and happiness? Then I think you need to find a way to move on.

 

[Infinity]

Very well said, TenK. We may have slightly different definitions of love, but both can see that yearning and feeling pain does not equal love. Love is a positive emotion, state, relationship, way of being. When you are in pain it is because you are feeling something that is the absence of love. It's not healthy. And it's about you, not about the other person. If you have been in pain for so long, something in you needs to change - it's nothing to do with the other person having to change or fall in love with you. I would say that there is some self-love needed in a situation where you allow yourself to be in pain for that long, in the name of love for someone else. Why punish yourself so? You could love yourself enough to say "enough! I deserve to be happy, now!" - and then work on stopping the yearning and pining for something that seems so far away. That's just self-inflicted-punishment. You deserve better; you deserve to be happy and living a happy life free of yearning and pain

 

[2muchlove]

Genuine question - these two statements seem at odds with one another.





If love to you means needing to receive nothing else back, why the pain and turmoil? Is it just that you need the love recognised by others in order for it to not feel like a secret, but that you need no further reciprocal action on the part of the other person? Or is it something else?

It's not being able to be as generous as I'd like. In fact, I have to scale back my platonic friendship with this person so I don't upset my husband or give anything away, so I can't even have the kind of friendship I'd like to with him. I always have to be guarded. Let's face it, even if I didn't like him romantically if we were best buddies and I was all over him like a rash, my husband would be jealous. I doubt he's the type to show it and freak out or anything, but surely it would be there? He freely admits he doesn't like the thought of sharing me one little bit.

I haven't come across the theory of loving having to be returned in order for it to be love at all. I'll be honest; I don't know what I think of that. What I do know is that it's not simply a case of turning these feelings off, and I personally don't have the ability to physically remove myself from 'the object of my desire', unless I want to entirely burn my life down and start from scratch and put my daughter through all that upheaval. So, I do sympathise with the OP. He's even put that physical distance between him and the woman and the feelings are still hard to turn off.

 

[2muchlove]

Love is a positive emotion, state, relationship, way of being. When you are in pain it is because you are feeling something that is the absence of love. It's not healthy. And it's about you, not about the other person. If you have been in pain for so long, something in you needs to change - it's nothing to do with the other person having to change or fall in love with you. I would say that there is some self-love needed in a situation where you allow yourself to be in pain for that long, in the name of love for someone else. Why punish yourself so? You could love yourself enough to say "enough! I deserve to be happy, now!" - and then work on stopping the yearning and pining for something that seems so far away. That's just self-inflicted-punishment. You deserve better; you deserve to be happy and living a happy life free of yearning and pain

I agree that it's the absence of love that causes the pain, but that doesn't mean, to me, that the love doesn't exist in the other person.

Why do I put up with the punishment? Because I do love my husband, immensely. And I wouldn't just be walking away from him, I'd be walking away from my home, and career, and obliterating my little girl's life. Maybe one day it'll be worth it to do that, but coming from a very broken home myself I'm really loath to do it.

 

[tenK]

It's not being able to be as generous as I'd like. In fact, I have to scale back my platonic friendship with this person so I don't upset my husband or give anything away, so I can't even have the kind of friendship I'd like to with him. I always have to be guarded.

I would argue that it's the fantasy you are nurturing that is preventing you from having a platonic friendship with him in the first place, not the fact that you are holding back for fear of upsetting your husband. If all you HAD were genuine feelings of platonic appreciation, then no, your husband wouldn't be worried or upset. You wouldn't be all over him like a rash if he were your friend, and even if you did end up spending an awful lot more time with him in that capacity of friend, I doubt your husband would worry about that. Being BFF's with spouse's immediate family is pretty common actually. In fact, that's often the way people meet their spouse.

You say you can't switch your feelings off, but thoughts precede feelings. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's absolutely possible to let go of a crush on someone, or to move on from a relationship once it's ended/never started. However, it's a bit like quitting smoking. You really have to want to, inside. No matter how many doctors tell you how bad it is for your body, no matter if your kids are begging you to quit because they're scared of you dying, you won't stop smoking until you want to do it for you. And I might be wrong, but I think what Infinity is saying is that sometimes having an 'unrequited love' type situation can be fulfilling some other hidden need we have within us. Not necessarily a gaping hole type need that is easy to identify, or shows itself in other scenarios, but a more subtle undercurrent. Maybe life is boring, and we crave escape, hence fantasies become a way of coping. Or maybe other aspects of life feel like they are not in our control, so we create a situation where that genuinely manifests in a way where we can shrug our shoulders and sigh and point to it, and that somehow relieves the tension of all the other things we are too scared to face. I don't know. Those are echoes of things I have picked up in my dealings with other people who are prone to crush on unattainable people. I know both you and the OP are different individuals, and I'm not trying to psychoanalyse you here, but it's worth considering why, when life is short, you're stuck in a rut of wanting something that you can't have (or could only have at the expense of something else you want dearly, like your existing marriages).

 

[2muchlove]

I would argue that it's the fantasy you are nurturing that is preventing you from having a platonic friendship with him in the first place, not the fact that you are holding back for fear of upsetting your husband. If all you HAD were genuine feelings of platonic appreciation, then no, your husband wouldn't be worried or upset. You wouldn't be all over him like a rash if he were your friend,

I just disagree with this. I think my husband would be slightly upset and jealous of too much time spent with, too much physical contact with, too much talking about straight male friends. I am much more reserved with all my male friends since being married, out of respect for my husband. I would feel a bit iffy about him being like that with straight female friends, too. I'd wonder if more was going on that I didn't know about. If I knew about it, I don't think I'd feel the same, I don't find the thought of him sleeping with someone else alarming, but not behind my back. He admits he hates the idea of 'sharing' me though. But yes, I definitely scale back interaction with my brother in law because i know full well there are feelings there and i dont want there to even be a sniff of anyone (most of all husband, the only opinion i really care about) knowing.

But, this thread isn't about me - I only wanted to show OP he isn't alone and to say that it's not as easy as some seem to think to turn off feelings, so, I get it.

 

[2muchlove]

but it's worth considering why, when life is short, you're stuck in a rut of wanting something that you can't have (or could only have at the expense of something else you want dearly, like your existing marriages).

because i believe we only have so much control over who we like in life. I dont settle down easy, but its not a massive jump in imagination to understand that im going to feel much of the same stuff about my husbands brother as him - they share a lot of genetic material! add to that i happen to want what society says i cant have - two husbands. I refuse to believe that multiple partners is so bad or wrong...surely that idea goes against the existence of this forum??

 

[tenK]

because i believe we only have so much control over who we like in life.

We will probably have to agree to disagree here. As a youngster, I identified almost exclusively as lesbian. I had a lot of attractive female friends that I would occasional think about, but since they were all heterosexual and not interested in me, I got over those crushes pretty darn fast and learned to pick potential relationship partners who were more compatible with me. That is a choice one can make - to pick compatible partners and not lust after incompatible partners.

I dont settle down easy, but its not a massive jump in imagination to understand that im going to feel much of the same stuff about my husbands brother as him - they share a lot of genetic material! add to that i happen to want what society says i cant have - two husbands. I refuse to believe that multiple partners is so bad or wrong...surely that idea goes against the existence of this forum??

Of course I'm not talking about polyamory being bad or wrong or anything remotely like that. And I'm not making any judgement about this being your BIL either. What I feel is unhealthy in your case (and in the OPs case) is simply the continued nurturing and fixation on of feelings that have no chance of being reciprocated. The existence of this forum (or more precisely, the existence of the people on it) is proof that it's possible to actually have the thing you claim to want - two husbands - regardless of what society tells you. Your exact circumstances are not really the product of social conditioning gone wrong, they are down to you being incompatible with your husband on the issue of open relationships. He is mono and wants a mono partner. He has been clear with you on that. You could choose to find a more compatible partner, and be free to try to date brother in law (if he is open to that too), or ditch both brothers and look for poly men who would happily share a wife between them, but I understand that you don't want to do that. So the next best thing you could do would be to try to remove that crush energy so that it's not bringing you down all the time, and just enjoy your relationships in a neutral way. If you are stuck in the mindset of thinking that you have no control over who you fall for in life, and feeling like unrequited love is the same as reciprocated love, then I can see why doing so would be especially hard. I hope both you and the OP figure out a way to accept your respective situations and move on. It sounds kind of miserable to be either of your shoes.

 

[Infinity]

Why do I put up with the punishment? Because I do love my husband, immensely. And I wouldn't just be walking away from him, I'd be walking away from my home, and career, and obliterating my little girl's life. Maybe one day it'll be worth it to do that, but coming from a very broken home myself I'm really loath to do it.

The punishment I meant was not your action, whether you stay or go. It is your thoughts. You are self punishing by contuining to pine after someone who doesn't feel the same. I meant, "why do you continue to pine after them?" Not, "why don't you leave your husband?". You could change the painful way you SEE the other person. You could stop the painful perception of the situation. I wasn't suggesting you change your relationship - but that you change yourself.

But if you believe that you have no control, or very little control, over your thoughts and feelings - then that makes sense that you wouldn't see this as an option. If you believe you are essentially a victim of love, that if you "fall in love" or develop a crush or infatuation, that in some cases you simply have to put up with it and can't change it, even if it hurts, then it makes sense that you don't see what you're doing as self-punishment, but rather you don't see that you are doing anything at all. I see that you believe that this "being in love" is something that has happened TO you and continues to happen TO you, and you just have to deal with this painful circumstance the best you can.

If that is what you believe, I would then ask, "is this belief serving you"? And "could you develop a more helpful belief?" (For example, what if you could stop having this painful infatuation, and the power to do that is within you? How would the world look if you believed that?).

If you are interested in this potential 'other way of seeing things', then one exploration you might be interested in is that of neuroplasticity - that our brains and bodies learn to habitualise the thoughts and feelings we practise until they do seem automatic and uncontrollable. However, we can control and change them, a bit at a time. There are quite a few books available on the subject, including on restructuring your own mindset. Also quite a few psychologists will be trained in this and will be able to help with techniques to shift your mindset, if you find your current beliefs are no longer serving you.

It is then up to you if you wish to explore that path if you don't, I really have nothing more to offer, because my beliefs about my own power to change my thoughts and feelings are so different from the idea that these thoughts and feelings just happen 'to' us, that I can't say much more I wish you all the best though.

 

[anamikanon]

Situation: You are poly, have girlfriend and are interested in her sister as well.

If this were okay with all three people concerned, it is fine.

Problem 1: Your GF is not fine with poly.

Problem 2: Your GF's sister is an unknown factor. Being attracted and being interested are different planets, particularly when it comes to sister's or best friend's BF etc.

Problem 3: Even if your assumption that GF's sister reciprocates your interest is correct (and there could be other reasons for her behavior than what you choose to read into it), she may not be interested in poly.

Problem 4: Add being sisters to the usual metamor dynamics and God only knows what happens if there is trouble or one of the relationship ends or someone gets added or whatever.

Its your life. Sure it is possible that you can come clean with GF and convince her and her sister and everyone lives happily ever after - which seems to be the answer you are seeking.

From your post, it sounds more like you'll lose both of them. Your GF is nowhere near accepting of you being poly to the point you couldn't even admit there was anyone else, let alone that it was her sister. That is the reality.

What we feel for someone can't be changed. What we do about it definitely can. To me it seems that if your feelings for the sister get too obvious, your relationship will be in serious trouble with heartache all around - and it may not even be reciprocal as you imagine.

On the other hand, if you are definitely interested in being poly, perhaps your GF is lost anyway, unless you are willing to be monogamous for her or something changes eventually (I cannot, in all honesty respect going into a relationship with intentions of cheating).

In your place, I'd probably keep distance from the sister, but continue conversations about polyamory with the GF to see if middle ground can be reached in that relationship.