Poly by proxy... Can't it work?

[ALottaLove]

Hey all,

I am one of three people entering a poly dynamic for the first time, and it's come about by accident in a way. Can these scenarios work?

Some backstory will help...

Bob and Jane were together for five years. They had a long relationship breakdown. Jane dumped Bob about 3 months ago. I met Bob using online dating 6 weeks ago. His status was 'single, mono' and mine was 'single, considering poly'.

It became clear early on that a) Bob and I get on really bloody well and felt a lot for each other very quickly, and I started to feel mono towards him and b) Bob and Jane's relationship was unresolved, with Jane becoming increasingly jealous and remorseful on finding out that he was seeing someone else. She begged him back.

Bob kept up communication with Jane. I could see that the situation was messy, I told Bob that if he needed to sort out his stuff with Jane, and if they want to fix it up and had that opportunity, then I suggested he to give it a go. He was very upset to lose me, as I was him, and he suggested poly as he felt he was in love with two women. However, despite my curiosities about poly dynamics, at the time I didn't feel I wanted that with them both, and thus, Bob went back to Jane. He was in tears as he told me his decision. I was numb for a day and then I too was very upset.

I was worried about their reunion, as some of the history I'd been told wasn't too healthy, but I just tried to wish them well in my heart. I also felt very sad to lose Bob and see him go back, but I understood that the issues they needed to work on ran very deep and related to a situation that they both shared. Not simple stuff.

Bob and I kept in touch for a bit. Light and supportive at first, but then he said he needed to cut off contact in order to move on. I had a very strong feeling that this wasn't right, that the whole thing wasn't right, and that I didn't actually want him to go!... I'd started to fall in love with him you see.

Following the feelings I had, I asked to meet him. I had to know if I was imagining this feeling, and to help me move on I hoped he might reaffirm his decision. I don't know what I was expecting, it was very confusing. I was half looking for closure, but also trying to understand my feelings of love. When he walked into the pub I just burst into tears, I felt so affectionate towards him. We agreed to try poly that night, as he too feels a great deal of love for me, and feels he can't choose between two women, one of whom he has a great deal of history with and love for, and one who he only just met but feels he has fallen quickly in love with (which is me, btw). I felt that I must give it a go, because I have been interested in experimenting with poly anyway, and I can't let this man walk out of my life! Jane has also agreed to give poly a go. It wasn't an easy decision for both of us women, but we both would like to keep seeing Bob, and he feels confident, and from what I can see so far, he has the ability, to give great affection to us both.

One thing I was worried about was entering this with this couple who have a number of issues to resolves, but after some thinking time, and a bit of twoing and froing, I concluded that the issues don't worry me, so long as people are dealing with them responsibly, ie. therapy if needed, and with honesty and openness. I have communicated this clearly and it appears to be understood by Bob. I am not in contact with Jane yet.

Jane has had her time away whilst I was with Bob, and it was very hard for her. I supported Bob in being totally open and honest with her and maintaining contact whilst she was feeling lots of big things. Bob and I had a glorious few days, deepening our affections and having such a lovely time. I didn't feel too worried about him leaving. I felt brave, and secure, and very enamoured.

This weekend has been my first time on the other side of the fence. It was birthday yesterday, and before we'd all gone poly, Bob and Jane had agreed to be together for some days whilst she relocated and moved house. They could have reworked a whole bunch of logistics, but I felt it unnecessary and feel secure that I would be okay on my birthday, with them together. Ouch. That was hard actually. I woke up and felt very lonely, and confused. I ended up having a great day with friends, although I missed him. I felt there is something to learn there, about my own harshness towards myself, and maybe something we can learn about birthdays in general: don't let someone bat away the importance of that day! Maybe I was being naive! What do you guys think about birthdays? It must be easier once/if everyone gets on, then you could do stuff together, right?

Anyways, today I am going bonkers. I'm hungover from my birthday yesterday's, really tired but can't sleep, and I feel hollow and heartachey. I feel as if me and Bob's rapport has been completely severed. I feel jealous, and defeatist, like this is a totally bad idea. I am worried that I don't know how to sublimate these feelings, that I can't handle this, that I am hurting myself in a crazy way. I have been looking online and can't find much strategy for actually processing how I feel right now. Any tips for early starters would be most welcome.

I feel worried today, an insecurity coming up, that he can't truly love me, or that our love won't be able to develop deeply with him being with two people at the same time. It also hurts that I can't 'access' him, like calling or texting. I think it's important to respect their time together, so I'm holding off (although I did talk to him a fair bit at one point today when I couldn't take it any more). I didn't expect to feel quite so needy. It's painful and if don't want to be possessive, but a part of me just him to adore me alone. Sharing his affections with another person is harder than I thought.

Jane and I have talked through Bob about meeting, but haven't spoken directly yet. I keep flitting from feelings of 'yes, let's meet! It's such a sexy situation! We'll probably get on!' to feelings of 'oh my god, how can I bare to meet the women that he loves. It is surely going to make me feel awful, and I will want to kiss him, and then how do I behave?'.

My overtired and emotional defence mechanisms are telling me to pack it in, and part of me wonders whether, due to the start of this whole thing, we're both hoping for him to make some sort of decision. I can feel myself sliding into that mentality a bit more now that he's gone, like a desire for him to not love her anymore, and only love me. Which I think is not the bloody point, and is not sustainable at all. Poly by proxy... That's what we are. Can it work? Does anyone have any experience of something similar?

Would it be kinder and more loving of me just to tell them to get on with it, and remove myself from the scenario? It would hurt me a lot, and I know Bob would also hurt, but I don't know how to move forwards right now, tonight, here, on my own in my flat. I don't how to support myself with these emotions. I feel stuck, and lonely. And I want a cuddle and kiss from the man that I love, who is currently cuddling and kissing another, that he loves.

I'm not sure if we're doing this right, and if we are to continue with it, how do we support each other?

Thank you in advance for any advice, and please ask away if it would help you to know more details about the dynamic.

Lots of love xx

 

[PinkPig]

I try not to base my decisions off of just my feelings, especially when I'm not feeling my best, as I know minor issues can look major when I'm not performing at my peak. It's the whole HALT thing... If I'm Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired, I'm not going to accurately assess my circumstances or make the wisest decisions. My behavior is also likely to be less than desirable. In your case, you're probably tired from the hangover, and lonely from not being with your partner on your birthday. I'd chalk this up as a learning experience... be honest with yourself about your needs/wants and convey those needs/wants to your partner. Like you said, don't minimize the important things in your life in an effort to be accommodating. Speak up for yourself

My suggestion would be to take care of your physical needs, let your body recover, and then re-evaluate how you feel about your relationship when you're feeling better!

 

[ALottaLove]

Almost an hour later, and I have been thinking some more. I don't want to give this up, I feel there is potential for growth for us all here. There is a great deal of honesty, hard work and love happening within this little trio.

I want to meet Jane, and I might like to end up in bed with both him and her, and being sexual together, which is an idea that we have all been toying with. I'd also like to go out and so stuff together, so we are organising a date to meet this week I think.

My main query is one of how to help myself in those moments of low. How to move towards more love for them both, and definitely love for myself. This is why I've been interested in poly for a while, because I see it as a way of taking responsibility, which is something I am comfortable doing. However, for that to be any good, action is also required, or strategy for facing my own issues.

I am so bloody excited to see him again. Haven't felt like this about anyone for a very long time!

 

[ALottaLove]

I try not to base my decisions off of just my feelings, especially when I'm not feeling my best, as I know minor issues can look major when I'm not performing at my peak. It's the whole HALT thing... If I'm Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired, I'm not going to accurately assess my circumstances or make the wisest decisions. My behavior is also likely to be less than desirable. In your case, you're probably tired from the hangover, and lonely from not being with your partner on your birthday. I'd chalk this up as a learning experience... be honest with yourself about your needs/wants and convey those needs/wants to your partner. Like you said, don't minimize the important things in your life in an effort to be accommodating. Speak up for yourself

My suggestion would be to take care of your physical needs, let your body recover, and then re-evaluate how you feel about your relationship when you're feeling better!

Thank you PinkPig, really good advice

I struggle to look after myself emotionally sometimes, it's something I've been getting help with for a while. The HALT thing is good! I'm going to memorise it.

So now, how would you deal with this bit? I feel a bit better, but am aware that I got emotional with Bob earlier and I feel bad. I've already said sorry, and that I don't want him to take on my pain, or feel guilty, it's just that this has been a hard few days, and he has been very sweet and said that he wishes that he could be here to comfort me, to which I responded that it probably wouldn't be much fun anyway, and I more likely need to self soothe and pick myself up.

I feel that this experience, this journey, is going to be a huge learning curve that is going to challenge me to use a lot of the things I have been learning in therapy about self-care and love.

I'm struggling to get anything done today. Maybe I should just try and do something teeny weeny, just a smidgen of something for me. That will probably start lifting me up.

I'm thinking fresh bed linen (always love that feeling), hot bath, hot water bottle, cup of herb tea, and a movie. Good place to start. I feel better just thinking about it.

Any one else got any other ideas? Or links to useful threads or posts online about this aspect of poly - looking after your needs, etc.

Thank you, much love xxxxx

 

[IndieSolo]

I want to meet Jane, and I might like to end up in bed with both him and her, and being sexual together, which is an idea that we have all been toying with.

Really? You want to have sex with someone you haven't met yet?

 

[GreenAcres]

Really? You want to have sex with someone you haven't met yet?

I had this same thought, NYCindie. Without even having met, why is there any talk at all of a threesome? That whole bit of thinking seems kind of out of the blue, and probably a fairly bad idea at this point.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle.

I caution you to tread carefully. I could be wrong, but you seem under the influence of NRE and not thinking clear to me.

One thing I was worried about was entering this with this couple who have a number of issues to resolve

Yup. That would be a caution flag. Nobody likes walking into drama already in progress.

despite my curiosities about poly dynamics, at the time I didn't feel I wanted that with them both

Sounds sensible. So why enter into it now with the drama couple? Just to not be without Bob?

My overtired and emotional defence mechanisms are telling me to pack it in, and part of me wonders whether, due to the start of this whole thing, we're both hoping for him to make some sort of decision.

If Bob wants both, don't expect him to be operating from a place of "what is healthiest for all?" He may be operating from a place of "How can I get what I want? How can I keep both in my orbit?"

YOU are responsible for looking out for your well being. If you are telling yourself to pack it in... why are you not listening?

How to move towards more love for them both, and definitely love for myself.

Sounds like a sensible want. Could prioritize what is healthy for YOU over what is healthy for them. Put your own oxygen mask on first.

I understood that the issues they needed to work on ran very deep and related to a situation that they both shared. Not simple stuff.

Unlikely they solved it already. How's not letting them get on with that loving behavior toward them?

I am worried that I don't know how to sublimate these feelings, that I can't handle this, that I am hurting myself in a crazy way.

If your gut is telling you to get out of an unhealthy thing because you are hurting yourself... what stops you from listening and taking personal responsibility for your health and well being? Why are you seeking to ignore/sublimate how you feel? How is this loving behavior toward yourself?

I don't want to give this up, I feel there is potential for growth for us all here.

Experiencing hard feelings like "letting it go" can also lead to growth.

The reality is that you only have known him 6 weeks. This is not love. This is infatuation, NRE stuff.Brain chemistry stuff urging you to keep it going. One does not drive a car drunk. Well, one does not enter poly "drunk" either. You sound like you are infatuated (drunk) on Bob, don't want to give it up, so you are bargaining ways to keep it going.

The fact that they have a drama sounding relationship... what makes them great sounding partners for a "V" style polyship with Bob as the shared hinge? Much less as a triad?

Would it be kinder and more loving of me just to tell them to get on with it, and remove myself from the scenario?

YES. I think it would a whole lot kinder to you to get out of this scenario.

It would hurt me a lot, and I know Bob would also hurt, but I don't know how to move forwards right now, tonight, here, on my own in my flat.

Your are hurting NOW.

I see you are worrying about learning how to share Bob's time on your bday. I think you could step back away from that specific tree and examine the overall forest first.

Is Bob and his wonky situation with Jane something you even want to tango with in polyship? Is it HEALTHY for you to?

Sometimes the choices are not "win or lose" but "which stinks the least?" In this case? I think that (short term stink from a break up + the relief afterward) is better level stink and more healthy a choice than (indefinite stink with no end in sight.)

I'm not sure if we're doing this right, and if we are to continue with it, how do we support each other?

• Doing it to avoid having to break up?
• Or because Bob is unwilling to be decisive? (Which is also you wanting Bob to decide things so you do not have to)
• Or you/Jane doing it because "it's better than not having him?"

Those are not healthy reasons to poly to me.

I think you would be better off putting the brakes on and letting it go at this time.

You guys might be willing to go there at this time. But I don't think it sounds healthy or like it is the best time to be starting something like that up.

Poly has a habit of magnifying all cracks. To me you sound like you are going in with these people underprepared and with wonky foundations.

If you want to read more about poly, these pages might help:

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles
http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html
http://www.serolynne.com/poly_complex.htm
https://www.morethantwo.com
http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

But those are about polyamorous relationships. Assessing if your potential partners are healthy individuals for poly -- that's on you to sort out. They don't sound esp. healthy to me. Assessing if you are a healthy individual for poly -- that's on you to sort out too.

I feel that this experience, this journey, is going to be a huge learning curve that is going to challenge me to use a lot of the things I have been learning in therapy about self-care and love.

Yes. I hope you use use those skills to determine whether or not to jump into it in the first place. That is exercising self care and self love too.

HTH!
Galagirl

 

[Inyourendo]

This honestly sounds like a lot of drama. Id walk away and consider being with bob if and when his relationship with Jane is resolved. Their relationship is shit, she's getting with him because she is laying claim to her toy she cast aside but doesn't want someone else to play with. I would not be in a polyship with a metamore like that.

 

[Halcyeus]

Other people have already said what I would have better, with more experience and knowledge behind them.

Its not looking good at all. Painful as it is, the chances are you'd save yourself much trouble by choosing to break away, hard as hell that might seem at the moment. You'll get yourself in deeper emotional confusion for longer otherwise and by the sound of things that will ultimately end up being much worse. It might not be so bad, but, woah, I wouldn't put money down on things going well. Sorry.

Anyway, so glad you're working on that love for yourself that you mentioned. Its such a help for general well-being. If you can, get plenty of exercise and eat healthy, too. Its incredibly effective at helping the brain during ups and downs like this.

If there are sympathetic people you know in person or online who you find attractive or similar they can help distract a lot from the anguish. In my experience that can make a difference, so long as someone you turn to knows its temporary care for heartache.

 

[ALottaLove]

Really? You want to have sex with someone you haven't met yet?

I didn't say that, did I? I said I might like to end up in bed with them both, and that it's an idea we've been toying with. By which I mean I am open to us exploring the dynamic as a trio, and that it is of course dependent on how I feel when I meet Jane.

Edit: additional thought...

Also, it has felt like quite a nice step for me to open myself to the idea of a threesome. It has been a surprise to have those thoughts come to me in a pleasurable, autonomous way. It's not something I've fantasised about sexually before. Baby steps and all that.

 

[ALottaLove]

I just wrote an amazingly epic response and then, as I went to post it, the blooming thing had logged me out and it disappeared! So frustrating.

oh well! the gist of it was:

I consent, and nothing has been broken in terms of agreement. Everyone is working hard and being supportive and honest.

I am not new to poly, and was raised in a community that openly explored poly dynamics. I have done my reading too, but thanks for the links, I shall check out the ones that I don’t already know of. It is an exploration in to love and relationship that I feel opens one to develop in a way that is autonomous and, actually, quite political. I feel mono culture can, when practiced unconsciously, perpetuate systems of property, possession, dependency and insecurity, that exacerbate and continue themes that are oppressive to peoples in general, and that often indirectly serve hegemonic power structures.

We didn’t look for this, but throwing the towel in, which Bob and I have already done more than once, seems to be coming from a place of resignation and fear about how to proceed with the feelings and the dynamic, rather than due to actual problems within the dynamic. Fuck fear. So much of this is good.

Jane has reached out to me, and, as of this morning, we are now in touch. Her approach has made me feel very happy, and she has shown care and respect towards me. We are meeting soon, and I feel very happy to have acknowledged and bowed to each other. We both love a remarkably splendid person, but they have a great deal of history. Feeling connected to her feels inclusive and good.

I understand that within the permanent poly community, lingo and frameworks are used a lot. However, right now, my main aims are to find out more about:

Consent
It is important to me that, with all of us being new to poly, we are very explicit about our understanding of what this means, for us as a group, and for us as individuals. It is important for me to know that Jane consents to this dynamic, and I wish to speak with her about this at some point. With consent we accept responsibility, right?

Long term plans
I’d like to talk to them both, together if possible, about this dynamic, should it run into the long term. It would be good to see how a conversation like that goes. I feel willing to challenge social norms of living arrangements, child rearing, holidaying etc. We’re all quite young, with no kids. I feel it’s probably a good thing to talk about this, and contraception etc. Any thoughts on this?

Sublimation / Compersion
Sublimation is like turning shit into gold. It is a mature coping mechanism, and I use it a lot as a creative in my practice and art. In poly-land, I am sure that the aim of sublimation is compersion. I feel like this is my aim for the whole thing! My last relationship was mono and was not healthy, it ended badly. I have been single for a year, and so many dynamics, mono-casual, mono-committed, open-casual (fucking around), can cause hurt. The common denominator is me. I’ve felt a lot of hurt, and have been doing work this year, whilst single, on self-esteem, relating back to childhood abuse and neglect. This doesn’t mean that I am not healthy enough for a relationship, but it does mean that relationships can cause me to go a bit funny. When I begin to let someone in, and really like them, the intimacy can bring up trust issues, neediness, feelings low self-worth. Yet, despite this being a full on change for me, I have been much kinder and caring towards myself than in many other relationships, and I endeavour to look after myself and my needs.
What is important to me is finding further resources in sublimating, and processing, certain feelings. I could put this discomfort in a box, and say ‘nah, too hard, too much work, better stick to monogamy’, however, nothing bad has happened here for me to do that. I am witnessing two people that love each other being honest and open with me, and I have sexy love feelings towards one of those, and he feels the same towards me. That is actually very good, so far as I can tell! No-one is entrapping or being destructive. There have been big emotions such as fear and insecurity from all of us, and for me to achieve what I would like to from this dynamic, which is a greater understanding of love for me and for others, a good balance of love, life & work, healthy assertion of my needs, empathy and compassion for others, and, of course, compersion, it is essential for me to find strategy, resources and approaches to help me process this change.

Come on, don’t tell me you didn’t go through any of this when you started out?

If you have any mantras, stories, or guidance on how to start the process and mental move towards more love/less possession, higher self-worth/less insecurity in relationships, then I would love to hear your positive thoughts.

A lot of the responses I have received are surely coming from a place of experienced concern (with slight undertones of ‘run for the hills!’, and maybe a smidgen of patronisation and assumption ) and, although I am grateful for your concern, I think that me providing so much backstory and asking lots of emotionally loaded questions about whether I am going to die from pain has confused things. I’m not sure that I iterated clearly enough that we have been through a few stages already, and that we are, at the moment, committing to work at this. I feel safe with them and would like to begin the work that I set out to do, in thinking of this for years, and in taking this on. When I wrote my original post I was really stuck in my head... So much so that I actually tried to delete it, but can't figure out how to do that. It's not the best reflection of myself, and the HALT advice is probably the most kind, helpful and appropriate response to that post. Thank you so much for that

Also, NRE… Yes, he is awesome. I love him very much. Very soon, before Jane came back into the picture, before I understood their residual history, I felt that Bob and I were going to go on a journey together. It’s been a bit bumpy, and, however long it lasts, I’m sure it won’t be smooth sailing, but hell, I don’t think I’d want to go on this journey with anyone else. I’ve not felt like this before about somebody, and ‘I love you’ doesn’t mean that I am trapped, and that I will drag myself through the burning pits of hell to be with him. If I can’t make it work for me, then I won’t put myself though misery. So far, the discomfort that I have felt has opened me up to room for growth.

For a long time I have believed that love is just organs mashing together, pheromones and biology. More recently, I have had philosophies emerging, through my studies, through therapy, before and whilst knowing Bob and our sharing and trusting and supporting, and I have become more sure that we have absolutely no idea what the hell anything is for, or why it exists, why we procreate, and so on.

Recently I dreamt that I put all of my unknowns into a kiln, and I created a black hole. True love. Social rebellion. Creativity. The Trickster. Neuro-plasticity. Un-structure. Instinct. Magic. There is so much to explore, learn and create.

Lots of love x

 

[icesong]

Long term plans
I’d like to talk to them both, together if possible, about this dynamic, should it run into the long term. It would be good to see how a conversation like that goes. I feel willing to challenge social norms of living arrangements, child rearing, holidaying etc. We’re all quite young, with no kids. I feel it’s probably a good thing to talk about this, and contraception etc. Any thoughts on this?

I, personally, would not be thrilled with that sort of conversation at 6 weeks into a relationship. But I tend to try and keep things fairly casual for quite a while into things - I am perhaps still hurting from a breakup which was a hard, fast, fall into intense relationship and resulted in a lot of pain, so I feel I can't fall quickly and yet stay objective about potential issues. Still, I'd be a bit squicked by a partner bringing up this sort of discussion less than, oh, 6 months in? Especially a group conversation, given that you and Jane are NOT yet even acquainted let alone in a direct relationship.

Sublimation / Compersion
Sublimation is like turning shit into gold. It is a mature coping mechanism, and I use it a lot as a creative in my practice and art. In poly-land, I am sure that the aim of sublimation is compersion.

Hmm. I don't think I've ever heard the word sublimation used quite this way, and I'm intrigued. Have any links handy to learn more?

 

[FallenAngelina]

Sublimation is a term that came from Freud and means putting all of the energy into work and creativity that you otherwise would direct into sexual relationships. (As best I recall from Psych 101 back in the day.)

Yes, I think ALottaLove is using this word in a way I've also not heard of before.

 

[ALottaLove]

I, personally, would not be thrilled with that sort of conversation at 6 weeks into a relationship. But I tend to try and keep things fairly casual for quite a while into things - I am perhaps still hurting from a breakup which was a hard, fast, fall into intense relationship and resulted in a lot of pain, so I feel I can't fall quickly and yet stay objective about potential issues. Still, I'd be a bit squicked by a partner bringing up this sort of discussion less than, oh, 6 months in? Especially a group conversation, given that you and Jane are NOT yet even acquainted let alone in a direct relationship.



Hmm. I don't think I've ever heard the word sublimation used quite this way, and I'm intrigued. Have any links handy to learn more?

Bob and I talked about long-term ideas quite early on as we are both the kind of people who feel comfortable openly discussing those subject areas. You are right, however, in regards to raising these subjects with Jane. I think that my main intention here is to ascertain her feelings about the situation on the whole, which, now I think about it, is a bit rash, seeing as this is an evolving landscape.

We are meeting soon. I would like to see how I feel around her. Right now I feel a bit intimidated by something she said to me. It could be casual, but I felt threatened by her tone, like she was warning me, or asserting herself as primary, when we don't have that dynamic set up. If Jane isn't genuinely open to the reality of Bob having sex and developing love and a relationship with another equal woman, then I would prefer to know that earlier rather than later, as it will be important for me to understand what we might need to work on, or whether I can partake at all. If Jane isn't truly open to me being in his life, I think it will probably make us all miserable, and I won't feel right playing along with that vibe, where perhaps she is trying to 'win'. Time will tell, and so will meeting her in person. I have my back up a little bit but am not sure if I feel the need to address this now. It might be better to wait a little bit, and go with my intuition for a while rather than reacting immediately. It was a subtle comment. Right now my intuition says 'logged- await further data- hope for clear waters'.

On the other hand, another option would be to ask her outright. Something along the lines of: 'Bob and I would like to be in each others lives. How do you feel about this idea?' but the line I have just written feels very clumsy, too blunt, and verging on confrontational. I want to express my desire for honesty, as, even if it is painful for me to receive, that is the only way that I can make the right decisions for me. However, on day one of communication, that feels like a big thing to do.

Would it be wiser to be assertive now? Assertion is something I can find tricky, as I don't like to feel as though I am causing conflict, but being passive can be very unhealthy.

I imagine that being 'psyched out' by a metamour can happen sometimes. Right now I think it's all so new that I'm not confident in my signal reading abilities. It would be a shame if Jane has opened a connection only to use it in this way. Argh. Time out. Not going to think about it for a bit. I'm feeling confused and a bit paranoid. I trust that time will tell, even if it's just a few days.

In regards to sublimation, I am reading The Trickster and the System: Identity and Agency in Contemporary Society, by Helena Bassil-Morozow and a chapter called 'Creative Rebellion'. It's great! The bit that interested me most was American psychiatrist George Vaillants schema for adaptive defence mechanisms, with sublimation at Level 4, along with altruism and humour, and with denial and distortion at Level 1.

You can read more about Vaillant's system on this Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms#Vaillant.27s_categorization_of_defence_mechanisms

and there is a whole article devoted to the psychological premise of sublimation here, that I didn't know about. Going to have a look it myself now!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(psychology)

 

[GalaGirl]

Let me repeat back the highlights as I understand them so I know I go it ok? You correct me if I am wrong. I will give short feedback for each.

Your original post was mostly a vent.

Fair enough.​

You, Jane, and Bob agree. You are going to tal ban out trying on this "V" thing.

Ok. That's where we are at this time. You are now at the place of figuring out how to agree to be together and if you all really want to even go there.​

You want to talk to Jane to be sure she consents to this.

You might also cover the idea of "continuing consent" and check in periodically to be sure people still want to be here. Not just agree once at the beginning of the journey. Maybe once a month to check in and then the end of the year assessment to see if it is worth continuing or not?​

You want to cover long term plans.

I think 6 weeks into it is too early for that. Go with short range and maybe later medium range plans.

This is not launched yet. Just seeing what is possible. If you want a coprimary open model, be assertive and say so. It does not serve you well to hold back. Lay all cards on the table. Ask others to do same. See what lines up and what does not. Isn't that the purpose of this meeting? Or meetings? It may take more than one.

Do cover contraception, what happens if it fails and there's a potential pregnancy scare, a potential STD scare. Will you all date other people? That kind of thing.

Cover how to solve problems/conflict resolution now too.

Cover all the deal breakers for each person. Make sure you each know what the are.

But since it is early days, focus MORE on how to be together for the first year, and set a date to reassess if you guys want to continue to the 2nd or want to bow out. Makes the conversations more manageable. Long run stuff can be later.​

You want help with ways to process hard feelings.

Sublimation can help with expressing rough stuff. When I was younger I would rage. And I'd take it to an axe and cutting up wood. That was a better way to let that stuff out that sailing into fights with my people.

But I caution that sublimating can also used for spiritual bypassing. That's what I was trying to lift up before -- so be aware of that possibility and use your judgement.

Chopping up wood rather than picking fights is good. But if I am OFTEN or USUALLY out chopping wood, I might need to take a step back to look at the bigger picture. Rather than say I'm doing fine here with the "tree" and I'm coping well... I might need to examine the "forest" instead and see the source of upset. Does that make sense?

I process my feelings by journal writing or talking to a friend. I also try to practice Non-Violent Communication when expressing myself and articulating my needs. To me feelings are meant to be expressed. Any of Marshal Rosenberg's books could help with HOW you express how you feel and how you express what your needs might be.

Another way I deal with feelings is to give it time, not be in a rush. Let the emotional storm inside blow over. Some feelings are fun to feel, some are not. They all pass.

People sometimes need time to cool off before they try to engage in effective problem solving. Some people are sometimes not comfortable "sitting with their feelings" and want to RUSH to solve it and say anything and agree to whatever to just to make the yucky feelings go away. As you get to know yourself and your people in this new configuration -- be aware of that.

I believe feelings ensue after behavior. So giving it time helps me figure out what behavior I am doing that inspires this set of feelings to surface. If I like them, I keep doing the behavior. If I do not like them, I stop the behavior. Perhaps that is useful to you.​

Bottom line -- here's what you would like from this dynamic:

a greater understanding of love for me and for others, a good balance of love, life & work, healthy assertion of my needs, empathy and compassion for others, and, of course, compersion,

Make sure that's a shared vision. Then talk and agree on HOW to execute that.

• What constitutes a good balance? What would UNBALANCED love, life and work look like?
• How does one demonstrate empathy and compassion for others here in this grouping? What is NOT empathetic or compassionate behavior?

Take the time to "calibrate" so you all talk the same language.

Again, I would suggest NVC materials as you find your way having those kinds of talks. I also encourage you to check out those links I posted before. Perhaps starting with this set

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

with your people.​

HTH!
Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from ALottaLove):

"I just wrote an amazingly epic response and then, as I went to post it, the blooming thing had logged me out and it disappeared! So frustrating."

Yes, that's indeed frustrating. In the future, there's a couple of things you can do to prevent that.

First, don't compose your post in the forum window, not at first. Instead, use Notepad or Word or some other text program, and save it as some kind of draft file. Then, select all, copy, and paste into the forum window. This way if the site logs you out, you'll still have the draft file you can copy from. I use Notepad personally; I like plain text.

Second, check the "Remember Me" box whenever you log in.

Re:

"When I wrote my original post I was really stuck in my head ... so much so that I actually tried to delete it, but can't figure out how to do that."

When you submit a post, it can only be deleted within the first twelve hours afterwards. Unless you appeal to the mods and they agree to delete it for you. Also I'm not sure if it's ever possible to delete a post that started a thread.

Re: NRE ... can cause a kind of rapid cycling between excited euphoria and terrified despair. Your original post expressed a lot of doubts and fears and I am thinking that could be the low part of the NRE cycle.

That's all I have for now; keep us updated on your situation.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Re: NRE ... can cause a kind of rapid cycling between excited euphoria and terrified despair. Your original post expressed a lot of doubts and fears and I am thinking that could be the low part of the NRE cycle.

Hangovers will do that, too.

 

[IndieSolo]

In the future, there's a couple of things you can do to prevent that.

First, don't compose your post in the forum window, not at first. Instead, use Notepad or Word or some other text program, and save it as some kind of draft file. Then, select all, copy, and paste into the forum window. This way if the site logs you out, you'll still have the draft file you can copy from. I use Notepad personally; I like plain text.

Second, check the "Remember Me" box whenever you log in.

As long as you select "Remember Me" when you login, it keeps you logged in and you can have a window open for a long time to compose a post. I don't think composing your message in another program is really necessary if you've checked "Remember Me," but it can be extra insurance.

If you use Firefox, there is an Add-On called Lazarus that recalls any text you typed into forms, posting windows, and such.