Poly gone wrong :( my seemingly unsolvable problem

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poobah123

New member
I come here looking for advice mostly because other people would not be so understanding of the pitfalls or complexities of attempting to be poly. It has been three years since my story started and we serve as a very good example of how not to enter into and experience a poly relationship.

I have reached a breaking point where I need to make decisions that will most likely require the complete overhaul of my life as I know it today.

My wife Sarah and I have been involved with another couple for close to four years. At this moment, we are all back to being friends. It started with me having an emotional affair with Sunny, the other wife, then she got on board with poly, and off we went. Many ups and downs. I have struggled quite a lot. I am now at the point where Sarah is asking me to remove Sunny from my life, and she is willing to remove her OSO Sam from her life, as well.

Why? Sarah has a hatred for Sunny. Now the two of them are totally different women. Sarah is introverted. Sunny is an extrovert. So naturally there would be some friction. Mistakes were made on both their parts, but none which I would deem worthy of such a hatred. In fact, Sarah has admitted to me that she has pretty much faked being friendly to Sunny for three years!

Being the one stuck in the middle, I have become increasingly frustrated, to the point I don't want either of them in my life. Being single or anything else is far better than this emotional turmoil (push/pull) I have been going through. The problem is we have 3 children. Sunny has become my best friend, or rather, my only friend (hard making friends as a parent). Heck, even my mother likes her.

I am not sure erasing her from my life is something I could do, even if I tried. It would literally also break her heart. To Sunny, I am the guy she was always looking for. She settled for a "nice" guy, but then this happened. I am fairly certain that if I were to disappear it would ultimately mean the end of her marriage, as well. I just don't see them working anything out.

Also, for me, this experience has shown me what it would have been like had I chosen a more compatible life partner. I was young. We met 18, married at 24. We were both insecure children, to be honest. It exposed many of the things that were missing in my life. In addition, Sarah's behavior the past three years has really pushed me emotionally further away.

So this sums it up without going into a book of history. I just started seeing a therapist to help me make whatever decision I need to make to be happy. I've just been so unhappy. I don't deserve this. I am a good person and father. Good husband? Outside my emotional affair, Sarah agrees I have bent over backwards to be a good husband.

I am very sad it's come to this. I do not see any solution to my problem, other than removing myself from it entirely (divorce, whatever is required). I have accepted the fact there is no "right" answer. Only poor, good or better ones.

I would be interested in hearing anyone's suggestions if you read this far. If you did, I wholeheartedly appreciate it. If you reply, well, I will toast to you every new year's till my end! If you don't do either, you should. You may learn something.

Thank you for listening.
 
Hatred. Sounds familiar. Maca hated GG with a vengeance. He was ready to kill him, quite literally. That was 12 years ago. Today he has a patient tolerance for him. It is very unlikely they will ever be close. But we live together and we have a happy family, for the most part.

The biggest single thing that made a difference was Maca's decision that he needed to let go of his animosity if he wanted to be happy. If that hadn't happened, I don't think we would have been able to create a happy dynamic. It took until two years ago for him to make that choice. In the meantime (10 yrs), GG and I sucked it up.

No real advice. But I empathize.
 
I think at this point, since you've been given an ultimatum, you pretty much have to decide who you want to be with more. If you leave Sunny because Sarah demands it, will your marriage survive? I know I'd have a hard time forgiving someone for causing me to make the choice. I'd be very bitter and resentful.
 
poobah123 said:
.Sarah is asking me to remove Sunny from my life. She is willing to remove her OSO from her life, as well.
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This attitude really annoys me. It focuses purely on the feelings of you and Sarah, and completely disregards the fact that she's asking you not only to do something that will negatively affect you and Sunny, but is offering to cause the same heartbreak to her OSO—who is completely uninvolved in the drama and has done nothing to deserve it—in some kind of arse-backwards attempt at fairness. It treats your OSOs as disposable things, rather than as people.
 
It seems that Sarah was never okay with you being poly, and now she feels she has to do something extreme to make herself happy, similarly to you're considering now. Was this always aboveboard, or was there cheating at some point? If there was cheating, is completely reasonable and understandable why Sarah wouldn't want the person you cheated with anywhere near your family, and why she would feel rather hostile towards them. Only someone incredibly selfish and toxic wouldn't.

But anyway, it seems like she has reached the end of the road and you both have tough decisions to make. I would stay in situations that make me the happiest. It seems like Sunny is the one who does that.
 
Woah, wait a sec... You wrote "Sarah is willing to let go of her OSO"? So she has not done it yet? What's she doing, waiting for you to dump yours before she dumps hers? Is she still seeing him, talking to him, sleeping with him all the while waiting to drop him cold as soon as you drop yours?

She sounds like a cold-hearted beyotch. Sorry, is that the type of person you want to spend the rest of your life with? Someone so callous? Yikes!
 
Natja said:
Woah, wait a sec... You wrote "Sarah is willing to let go of her OSO"? So she has not done it yet? What's she doing, waiting for you to dump yours before she dumps hers? Is she still seeing him, talking to him, sleeping with him all the while waiting to drop him cold as soon as you drop yours?

She sounds like a cold hearted beyotch. Sorry, is that the type of person you want to spend the rest of your life with? Someone so callous? Yikes!
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I agree... If my husband Butch came at me with this ultimatum, he would be the one being dumped.
 
As a rule of thumb, anyone who gives me a "them or me" ultimatum, whether they are family, friend, lover or employer, is the one I write off.
 
What do you want? Not simply within the framework of one vs the other. If you had freedom to choose how you moved forward, what would it be? You said maybe neither, but most of your answer didn't mesh with that.

I know sometimes you're stuck with two bad choices and have to pick one;. However, I wonder if you have to be the one to make a choice here. At any rate, if you actually want to maintain relationships with both women, I question that you're obligated to pick. They may not have a friendship, but that's not essential to your having two relationships.

Working with a therapist sounds like a very positive step for figuring out what is best for you. Good luck!
 
I am sorry you are struggling. :( I am glad you have secured a counselor for yourself to give you extra support and help at this difficult time. I don't know if it could help you, but here's how I see it. I could be wrong, but here's my simple summary:

I need to make decisions in my life that will most likely require the complete overhaul of my life as I know it today.
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Okay, this is what it is for you right now. Whatever path you choose, your life will change significantly. Fair enough. It is what it is.

Sarah is asking me to remove Sunny from my life. She is willing to remove her OSO from her life, as well.
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Fair enough. Sarah is allowed to ask things of you. You are free to answer with:

  • Yes, I am willing to do that.
  • No, I am not willing to do that.


THOUGHT PROCESS

Right now, this is a question of participation.

Polyship:

The previous polyship shape has ended.

  • Sarah is no longer willing to participate in it. She cannot be forced to continue to participate.
    [*]It could continue in a new shape minus Sarah. New polyship shape TBD with whoever remains on board. Could tap general willingness now, but details of new shape could be done at a later time. So I grey it out.

Marriage:
  • Sarah is willing to continue to participate in a marriage if you leave the polyship, as well.
  • You do not sound willing to continue to participate in the marriage. Why?
    • Sarah lied/faked behavior for 3 years. This behavior of hers created emotional distance between you.
    • Experience brought to light that you are not actually compatible anymore.
    • Experience brought to light that there are things missing in your marriage.
    • You want to be with Sunny, and have no desire to leave polyship.

Where is you willingness to continue to participate in polyship?
  • You do not seem to want to leave the polyship. You seem to want to be with Sunny.
Where is your willingness to continue to participate in the marriage?
  • You do not seem to want to continue the marriage.
    • This not a "joyous yes"-sounding response to the question of "Do I want to continue to participate in my marriage?" Call it what it is, a no. You are sad about it, but it stills sounds like "No, not willing to participate."
Sunny leaving the picture does not resolve the things between you and Sarah, like her lying behavior over three years. Only she changes that behavior. And there is no mention of Sarah being willing to change her behaviors in your post.

So at this time, with the data at hand, the answer seems to be:
  • I want to continue to help provide well for the children. That does not change, no matter what.
  • I'm sorry you, Sarah, are leaving the polyship. I will not be leaving it.
  • I'm sorry you cannot participate in the marriage with me if I continue in the polyship. Painful as it is, we must disband the marriage. Apart from polyshipping, there are reasons I have for not wanting to continue my participation in the marriage.
    • Your behavior for the last three years causing emotional distance. You have been less than honest to me for a long time. That hurts.
    • We are no longer compatible.
    • We have things missing in the marriage.

Right now:

  • You want to be free of "push-pull stuck in the middle"
  • Sarah's behavior during the past three years has really pushed you emotionally further away.
  • This experience has shown you what it would have been like to have chosen a more compatible life partner.
  • This experience exposed many of the things that were missing in your life.

Ending the marriage:

  • solves your need to be free of "in the middle" stuff. You make a decision for yourself and there. No more push-pull.
  • frees you from experiencing Sarah's behaviors that put you off
  • frees you to be with the more compatible OSO, or seek other partners who are compatible
  • frees you to seek and enjoy whatever was missing in your life.
  • ending the marriage does not stop you from taking care of the children.

So that's the way it looks to me. Your emotions need time to settle and catch up. But the path to one possible solution is there.

I do not know if you and Sarah have listed what it would take/cost to stay together:

  • You would have to stop polyshipping with these people. (This is a given.)
  • Do you have to stop polyshipping completely?
  • Is Sarah willing to change her less than honest behavior and apologize? Are you willing to forgive and give her a chance to make amends?
  • Are both willing to work to change compatibility in the marriage?
  • Are both willing to work on bringing what is missing into the marriage?

You could spent some time articulating the rest with your counselor, so you can make a final decision, with all the path options and their pros/cons laid out properly, so you can run down the list and check your willingness and ability against each one and whether or not the path meets your needs.

Then you pick the path that is the best decision for you. But right now you seem to incline toward these, it seems:
  • (ending your participation in the marriage) and (keeping your participation in the polyship)
  • (ending your participation in the marriage) and (ending your participation in the polyship)

Either way, both point to (ending your participation in the marriage). You could deal with one thing at a time there. End the marriage participation first, at this time. Process the loss of the previous polyship shape, and the loss of the marriage. Sort the legalities, give yourself time to grieve, etc., while seeing your counselor in the transition time.

If you do not know if Sunny want to continue to date during your divorcing time, ask her. Say something like:

"Sunny, I am planning to divorce Sarah. It will take me time, effort and energy. Are you willing to remain in our relationship during this transition? Or would you rather disband and then see if we can resume once it is over? I would like to continue through the transition. I need to know where your willingness lies."​

Hang in there. Breathe, and take it one thing at a time.

Galagirl
 
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First, thanks to all who took the time to read and reply. Yes, Sarah is a bitch. It's her personality. She has gotten better! She used to be worse.

To the person who asked if there was cheating involved, sadly, yes. It started with an emotional affair then become limited physically for 8 months. I am not proud of it, but I had a nervous breakdown. I totally lost control and was not the person I wanted to be.

As for my preferred choice right now for a partner, it would be neither. However it's much more complicated than what I wrote originally. Sunny has a somewhat "fatal attraction" to me that has always affected me. Okay, not fatal, but an unhealthy attraction... almost obsessive. Second, we are having major problems with my son who is dealing with a possible mental illness. I am not sure my own marriage could stand alone due to my son's problems and our inherent differences.

Thanks for listening. I have only recently found a determination in me to make a better life for myself. My kids come first, but this unhealthy way of living is going to kill me at an early age. 😕
 
It's hard to say, because I know so little of the situation, but, in general, I have found that ultimatums, or at least the sort of large-scale demands that Sarah made, do not bode well for a relationship. To me, it sounds like a breech of love/trust/respect. Have you talked about this with your counselor? What do they say?

I don't have much to add, for everyone else has said it so well, but it sounds like counseling is totally the right thing. Perhaps you need to separate from both women, and look at this from a new perspective, while continuing to see the counselor. But most of all, it sounds like you need to concentrate on your son and what can be done for him. That might, at least, allow you and Sarah to work together on something other than issues revolving around your OSOs.
 
Okay, new data.

  • You want to continue to be there for the kids and support then in appropriate ways
  • Your son needs extra care beyond post-divorce care
  • You mention Sunny has a "fatal attraction" to you that is unhealthy.
  • You want to stop living in unhealthy ways.
You could go with:

  • Create your wellness plan to remove yourself from this toxic environment and these relationships so you can become more healthy over time in all ways. (Learn to put yourself first. If you die from an "unhealthy way of living that will kill me," you can't be around help your kids.)
  • Create a kid-care plan to provide for the children and their needs in appropriate ways.
  • End your participation in the marriage to be free of your bitchy wife.
  • End your participation in the relationship with Sunny to be free her fatal attraction.
  • Maybe it is enough work for today to decide those goals as your mission, so you can go to sleep tonight feeling one microstep closer to resolution.

Then start to work with the counselor and your lawyer/mediator to start coloring in the picture better tomorrow.

You don't have to solve it all in one day. It is going to be a process. But you are moving towards being free of a wife and an OSO you aren't happy with, so you can be a healthier, stronger person, which will benefit both you and your kids. That's a good thing.

It doesn't sound like an unsolveable problem. It is a big problem that requires you to come to a decision about what your current mission is. It sounds like you have that.

Next it is about identifying and organizing the rest of your actions to support each of those mini goals. Make the "to do list" for each. Your counselor can help you with your thought process and help you figure out what other help you may need along the way. Your lawyer/mediator can help you with your legal process.

Once the planning stage is done, you work to achieve the steps to support and knock out the mini goals.

Once all the goals are knocked out, you have completed the mission.

You can do this. One thing at a time. Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
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Wow, Just wow. Thank you for the advice. I really find the poly community literally the best and most knowledgeable people about relationships that exists today.

As if things couldn't get worse, I woke up this morning and Sarah wants to move to another state where it is warm. We live in NJ. Big argument on that. She does have a good heart and wants things to work out. I will give her that. Although I don't know if it's because she "needs" me to support her or truly wants to be my partner.

The fatal attraction thing was brought up last night by my brother. When I read and studied the description it's exactly what it is. Sunny sent me a message complaining that I hadn't sent her any messages in the past 3 hours. I replied with, "I'm sorry, but I like time to myself sometimes," and she got angry and flew off the handle. I just don't feel that that represents a healthy relationship.

I agree with your recommendations. It will be a process, and a challenging one at that, but I can do it.

Thanks, GG, and much love!
 
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You are welcome. Glad you feel a bit better.

As to the rest, i.e., moving somewhere warm-- worse for who?


Sunny: Pay attention to me, even though you are under duress!​
you: No. Not at this time. (You did that -- so good for you!) ​
Sunny: (expresses disappointment inappropriately at you, with freaking-out stuff.)​
You: No, thank you. Please learn to express disappointment appropriately. Please do not shout at me. This is not appropriate.​
​
​
Sarah: Let's move away from NJ!​
You: No, thank you. This is not an appropriate time to consider moving to another state. Please do not add to the load we already have. Please focus on the tasks at hand.​

Disappointing day for them, maybe, but not necessarily for you. You cannot get rid of all your stress today. Limit of the Universe. You have a lot going on. But you can reduce new incoming stress.

You could say "No" to things coming across your desk. You could even say it nicely: "No, thank you. Not at this time." There. Done. Then suggest the behavior to do and the behavior not to do. You are a parent. I'm guessing you have done "traffic cop" with your children before: "No, thank you. You may not stick boogers on the couch. You may get a tissue."

Maybe that could serve you here with your partners? Detach a bit and just "traffic cop" responses to reduce incoming stress.

Right now, you want some time to yourself to think and sort. So create it! Learning to say "no" firmly is an awesome skill. It makes saying "Yes!" all that much more pleasurable.

You can do this. Hang in there.
Galagirl
 
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Poobah, I'm sorry to hear about your struggles. In many ways, I understand exactly what you are going through. Quads are complicated that way. My wife and I are in a quad with another couple, and in my experience, I've found relationships between metamours to be extra challenging. I guess I find them to evoke more far more emotion such as anger when encountering challenges.

The push-pull you are feeling is something I have definitely had to deal with many times. If you try to avoid being caught between them, you get accused of not being supportive. You walk a fine line, with tons of broken eggshells behind you.

But here's the thing, in the moment it's easy to say "I'm done! I can't do this anymore." But what tends to stop you from making that decision is what you lose. It's only once you calm down you realize it. I heard that statement before. Heck, I have even said it myself. But no one in our quad can bring themselves to announce it because, deep down, everyone deeply loves each other. Most of the time a short break is all you need. You have been together for three years. Despite the ups and downs, there is probably a lot of love there.

What I find the best to do is to focus on my wife and allow her the time/space to vent (not an easy task). I try to hold back my opinions and listen. Then as she calms down, I can slowly introduce my thoughts to the situation to defuse the issue.

Oh yeah, and I don't speak ill about anyone, because that always comes full circle somehow.

I don't quite relate to some comments here. When problems escalate, and anger and hurt feelings arise, a lot of shitty things get said, such as threats, ultimatums, boundaries, etc. I only consider these comments serious when people are calm and have had the time to consider their wants/needs.

It sounds to me the girls may need a weekend away to reconnect.
 
Poobah, you quite alarmed me with "Sunny has a fatal attraction (obsession) with me."

I am wondering what is it about your needs that you got so close with a person like this? Would you say you have a strong need for attention, admiration, flattery, things that you may not be getting much of from Sarah?

Is it possible that you have been in denial about toxic or frightening behavior from Sunny, because of needs you have that she is fulfilling? Is it possible that Sarah has reasons to dislike Sunny that go beyond simple jealousy (and the fact Sunny enabled and participated in the initial, dishonest affair)?

Do you think Sarah genuinely cares about her boyfriend/Sunny's husband? If so, she must be feeling pretty desperate if she is willing to dump him to get Sunny out of your life... and move to another state. Pretty drastic moves, IMO. What is fueling her desperation here?
 
Dagferi said:
I agree. If my husband Butch came at me with this ultimatum, he would be the one being dumped.
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Yep. As a rule, I don't do ultimatums well. I tend to resent the one throwing it at me.

For the record, just because the sentence stood out to me, introverts and extroverts don't naturally live at odds. They can be quite harmonious, actually. I am in a quad with 1 introvert, 1 ambivert and 2 extroverts. We get along quite well, respecting our differences.
 
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