Sneaking Behind My Back.....pissed off

[bookbug]

This is an issue of expectations.

I totally agree. The thing I have found is that sometimes when a person has expectations, they get them mixed up with "the way it is" - reality. They mistakenly assume that everyone sees an issue the same way, and that "common sense" should lead all people to the same conclusion.

A lot of times, people do not realize they have made this cognitive error until a situation like Mahogany's brings it to light. And now she is trying to address it, so she can logically answer her husband's question, and they can communicate about it. She may find that most of what she thought she was originally concerned about is moot.

There is nothing wrong with having expectations as long as all parties are in agreement. But that takes communication beforehand.

Now, when I run into an unexpected situation, my first reaction is, "What did I miss?" I question myself, my understanding of the situation. Unfortunately, it seems that when most people find themselves in an unexpected situation, their default reaction is to find someone to blame, and that applies to far more than polyamory.

 

[pulliman]

As a parent? This is a rule you are certain applies to all parents? I am glad that you have found a style of parenting which works for *you*, but I assure you, there is not one rule book which everyone follows and even if there were it is hilariously unlikely that this book would be correct for all situations.

Each person decides what their priorities are and how they spend their time and energy. Fitting in to some arbitrary generalization might be important to some, but for everyone else, I suggest working within your own personal value systems.

I kind of skipped out on this thread when the story became a little more clear, and the topic of conversation changed. What I do notice is that grammar matters to me (dumb choice vs person is dumb), and I notice being quoted out of context. This thread has turned into a debate on polyamory and parenting, led in part by people who it seems have not parented.

That's fine. Everyone can and should have an opinion about the way things should be, and how they want things to be. But there does seem to be a (not always clean) divide between parents and non-parents. I notice that some (like LR), left the conversation a long time ago, their point made, without needing to debate further.

 

[Marcus]

Sex should NOT be a part of a child's life, it can be traumatizing...

While I and a couple hundred thousand years of human development disagree with that point wholeheartedly, it doesn't really matter. As I said to Pulliman, there is no right way to parent kids, so each person has to decide for themselves which way they are going to go with topics like sex.

I don't plan on wagging my finger at her, but I do plan on explaining that I am not okay with it in my house. If she wants to do things like that at her house, after her daughter's party, that's her. I do believe that we need to set clearer boundaries regarding our kids.

Clear boundaries about responsibilities like children and rent are always important to go ahead and hammer out, *certainly* if there is an incident which shows that not everyone is on the same page. I'm glad this situation has been downgraded to a minor misunderstanding; I think that's a more appropriate classification.

My best advice, Mahogany, is to re-read everything NYCindie has said in this thread and truly take it to heart. She has said very clearly what I've been trying (and failing) to get at. The kids and the party don't seem like they are at the heart of this issue. But either way, I hope that you will be as honest with yourself as you can.

 

[seakinganswers]

Seakinganswers, I did not know the fantasy side of this situation. That makes sense, because he had been trying with me during the party, on more than one occasion. So I am sure that had something to do with it, too.

Exactly. If this were a regular thing, then that's a problem. But sometimes fantasies are "inappropriate," like having sex in a semi-public place, where you might be seen. And often the fulfillment of that fantasy would require a comfort level of both parties coming together. It's not wrong to fulfill that fantasy once or twice in your lifetime, but someone making a habit of having sex in semi-public places is starting to cross the line, in my opinion.

It sounds like the bigger problem here was that Bo had asked Mahogany, and she wasn't comfortable with it, because it didn't fit into her moral code or comfort level. So he ran off to ask his girlfriend, who obviously had a different thought. I'm sure this happens all the time, but not usually right in front of you like that.

If my wife were poly, I could see this being a major issue for us. Our ideas of what's acceptable and our comfort levels are very different. And it's likely the girlfriend I found would be more free and open to all sorts of crazy experiences. In other words, she would fill that need of fulfilling many fantasies, and that would cause my wife to feel inadequate, or that our relationship wasn't as good as the other one, even though she still fills many needs for me.

 

[Mahogany]

It sounds like the bigger problem here was that he had asked her, she wasn't comfortable because it didn't fit into her moral code or comfort level, so he ran off to ask his girlfriend, who obviously had a different thought. I'm sure this happens all the time, but not usually right in front of you like that.

If my wife were poly, I could see this being a major issue for us. Our ideas of what's acceptable and our comfort levels are very different. And it's likely the girlfriend I found would be more free and open to all sorts of crazy experience. In other words, she would fill that need of fulfilling many fantasies and that would cause my wife to feel inadequate or that our relationship wasn't as good as the other one, even though she still fills many needs for me.

This also hits home, as part of the issue. He brought this very point up when we talked.

But the kids being around is a real issue too, for me.

 

[vanquish]

If my wife were poly, I could see this being a major issue for us. Our ideas of what's acceptable and our comfort levels are very different. And it's likely the girlfriend I found would be more free and open to all sorts of crazy experiences. In other words, she would fill that need of fulfilling many fantasies, and that would cause my wife to feel inadequate, or that our relationship wasn't as good as the other one, even though she still fills many needs for me.

But multiple relationships shouldn't be about comparison or competition. The flip side of that is just because the husband gets something from the gf that Mahogany doesn't give shouldn't make her feel inadequate. EVERYONE is unique. You're ALWAYS going to get something from one partner that the other doesn't give. If you get caught up in a sexual arms race, or trying to match another partner, that's just going to be petty. Decide what you, personally, are comfortable with, and stick to your guns. Or change your mind if you want to, but don't blame the other gf because she's got different sexual tastes.

(Now, how those tastes are played out is something else altogether, especially if it's potentially harmful to a child. I'm not touching that issue. Marcus and NYC have addressed that part.)

 

[happytovee]

My boyfriend and his wife won't allow any type of sexy time when their 17-year old son is in the house. His wife won't have sex with him when their son is home, and hasn't since his birth.

I am trying to wrap my head around this, but just cannot!

 

[Kernow]

I am trying to wrap my head around this, but just cannot!

I don't see why anyone needs to. It's their rule for their home. As long as people know that this is their rule, it doesn't matter if they understand it or not. They just need to respect it as their choice.

 

[Marcus]

I don't see why anyone needs to, it's their rule for their home. As long as people know that this is their rule, it doesn't matter if they understand it or not. They just need to respect it as their choice.

While I find the described level of caution regarding sex to be totally whack-a-doodle, it doesn't matter. Like you said, it's their deal, and they get to set up their lives the way they see fit. Presumably everyone involved knows the rules and is courteous enough to follow them.

 

[seakinganswers]

While I find the described level caution regarding sex to be totally whack-a-doodle, it doesn't matter. Like you said, it's their deal, and they get to set up their lives the way they see fit. Presumably everyone involved knows the rules and is courteous enough to follow them.

Very true. I know my wife and I would almost never have sex if this were the case. While it's always the woman's right to only do what she is comfortable with, it's also the other person's right to end the relationship, or never even start one with the person, if they think a boundary is too crazy. In this case, I would say this woman, while she has every right to have that boundary, might struggle to find men to date her with a crazy boundary like that. But that's just one sort of screwed-up guy's opinion.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Would it be different if there were just kids in the house?

It would be different to me, as well. We have sex when our kids are here on a regular basis (or we would never have sex). But when we have a kids' social activity going on, that's responsibility time.

For that matter, if we have a social activity for any group, it's not the right time to wander off. This is a three-adult household. That means three adults are responsible for dealing with guests, not one adult, while the other two run off to fuck.

The other aspect, sneaking off to do something without notifying your partner, I don't think it's about sex (necessarily), so much as sneaking. You could easily enough be upfront and forthright about going off for a private moment. Intentionally trying to do it on the sly is far too deceptive, to me.

Now, that said, I don't ask permission to love on my lovers. But if we are all engaged in a group activity, I also don't run off with one and leave the other wondering where the hell I went.

 

[Mahogany]

Now, that said, I don't ask permission to love on my lovers. But if we are all engaged in a group activity, I also don't run off with one, and leave the other wondering where the hell I went.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. That is exactly why I don't sneak off with him when she is present. If there is sex to be had, she is included, offered an opportunity to join, or say her piece. When it's Bo and me, then we only need to be concerned about the two of us. When it's just him and her, they need only be concerned about each other. But if all three of us are present, then we need to consider all three of us.

I expressed my concerns and discomfort. He decided to ignore them. She didn't know my concerns because we hadn't talked about it beforehand.

 

[vanquish]

Yes, I couldn't agree more. That is exactly why I don't sneak off with him when she is present. If there is sex to be had, she is included, offered an opportunity to join, or say her piece.. When it's Bo and me, then we only need to be concerned about ourselves. When it's just him and her, they need only be concerned about each other. But if all three of us are present, then we need to consider all three of us.

It sounds like you were considered and you opted out. Your setup is your setup, but I don't feel like they should have to incorporate you just because you're available. It should be if they want to.

I expressed my concerns and discomfort. He decided to ignore them. She didn't know I had concerns because we had not talked about it beforehand.

Has that always been part of this story? I don't remember reading that up until now. I remember you saying you turned him down, but not that you actively expressed concerns.

 

[SouthernGal]

Yes, she did state that she had told him why she thought it was inappropriate, and proposed instead having sex after the kids were down for the night. He chose to proposition his gf despite that, and run off privately.

Frankly, I would have been unhappy, as well. It's blatantly disrespectful, in my eyes, to hear the objections, and ignore them, in favor of getting your rocks off. Kids or not, if I express a valid objection and it's ignored, I'm going to be pissed. The difference is, I know exactly why I'm angry at those types of moments. I am not Leo's keeper, but I deserve the respect of being heard, and waiting until later that day to hash the topic out for next time, instead of being ignored.

 

[vanquish]

That does change things for me. If my partner expressed concerns, I'd honor them, not sneak around and do it anyway. Adults should be able to use their brains and not be slaves to orgasm. I feel like that would erode a lot of trust in a relationship.

 

[london]

And we're back to the cat and the washing machine.

 

[vanquish]

Yes. A healthy partner would know not to sneak around to get the result he wanted.

LR, I can see now why you'd call this cheating. It wasn't sexual infidelity, because he has the right, per the rules of the relationship, to have sex with her. It was sneaking and in direct contradiction to the discussed expectations though.

He shouldn't have to be told that acting in a way that flies in the face of her relationship concerns, hoping not to get caught, is flat wrong.

The way I had read things, it was a quickie bj, after the party had wound down, that could have been easily covered by one parent for at least a small amount of time. I don't have kids, but I have a lot of experience with them, so I know what's involved. Depending on the situation, it's not unreasonable for a parent to duck out and leave the other with an inordinate amount of responsibilities, if only for a short period.

(Anecdotally, it seems she was able to handle the workload, right? Theoretically, if she hadn't expressed her concerns, and the amount of responsibility wasn't overwhelming, I could see a partner saying, "I'm not in the mood, but if you and our gf want to go have fun, then do it," but that's two very big if's.)

With the knowledge that she threw up red flags and he ignored them, that's not right.

 

[Marcus]

Yes, I couldn't agree more. That is exactly why I don't sneak off with him when she is present. If there is sex to be had, she is included, offered an opportunity to join or say her piece. When it's Bo and me, then we only need to be concerned about ourselves. When it's just him and her, they need only be concerned about each other. But if all three of us are present, then we need to consider all three of us.

I expressed my concerns and discomfort. He decided to ignore them. She didn't know I concerns because we hadn't talked about it beforehand.

There is a pretty clear difference in opinion here. Posters are throwing around some pretty dramatic descriptions of what happened, but I can't see anything here but crossed wires about how Bo he thinks he should handle his relationship with Mahogany, and how Mahogany thinks Bo should handle his relationship with her. If Bo wants to live up to M's expectations regarding how he treats his girlfriend, then that's his business, though it appears he may not be in agreement with M's proposal.

I still find the issue with the party, responsibility, and the kids to be a shiny distraction from what is actually going on.

Calm and frank conversation about expectations is all that needs to happen. Fabrication of distinction about who is the good guy and bad guy will only turn this minor disagreement into an actual problem.

 

[willowstar]

Mahogany, I can see what you are saying here, and understand why you would choose not to accept Bo's offer. But I also feel like I am in the Marcus and NYCindie camp.

Your husband had a wish, and he propositioned you for some sexy time. You declined, stating that YOU felt it was inappropriate to indulge. You stated why you thought so. Completely understandable.

You are the hostess of the children's party, and your husband with you.

Obviously, Bo didn't agree with your assessment. My opinion (and it is just that, speculation) is that Bo took your answer as what was true for you, but not necessarily true in general. He still thought it would be fun and sexy. So he asked his girlfriend, and she agreed it was fun and sexy. And they did wait until the party was over, and the guests were gone. (I agree THAT would have been more dicey).) The fact that kids were around is a more grey area. It was not 5 kids under 10. It was three younger ones, a couple of teens, and one young adult.

My bf and I would think that sort of thing was sexy also, NOT because we were sneaking off during a kids' party, but because we were sneaking off for a quickie. It would be a naughty tryst, and he and I do enjoy that kind of thing. And telling someone about it ahead of time would kind of take something away from that, if the purpose is to be doing something naughty that no one knows you are doing. How long were they gone? Maybe 10-15 minutes? An hour? A short time away, and the kids didn't even notice?

Perhaps you were disappointed that Bo didn't agree with your opinion that it was inappropriate. Or maybe it was just envy that they indulged and you didn't. It sounds more like you have a little bit of judgement about them, because they are willing to do something that was outside of your moral/comfort zone.

I am glad you were able to communicate about it with Bo, and hopefully will have a successful conversation with her about it, as well.

 

[Mahogany]

Willowstar, thank you for your insight. I would honestly say that both reasons you brought up upset me. I was just shocked that they didn't have the same view about having sex with the children around. So I reacted out of shock. I had never been in a situation like this before.

Umm... I would be a liar to say I was not envious that they had felt the freedom to go experience pleasure in that setting. But with that said, my jealousy could be compared to, let's say, being jealous of a bank robber because he's able to steal some money and buy everything his heart desires. I am NOT saying that they are criminals, it's just an analogy of how it was my envy. I don't want to be the person telling them that they can or can't experience and express their love the way they want to.

So, when we three sit down and talk, if they express that they felt strongly what they did was not wrong, then we have to compromise. I'm going to have to find a position of neutral, because I can't stop two adults from doing what they feel they want to do. This is just one of many situations where compromise, communication, etc., etc., are important to maintaining a healthy happy relationship.