So here I am (going from swinging to polyamory)

[zappafreak]

Hello All,

I just signed up on the forum and am looking for advice on my situation. Here is my background:

My wife Zoe and I have been swinging for the past 10 years. During that time we had a third child (much younger than the other two) that put a "hold" on the lifestyle for a bit. But we came back to it a few years ago. The pregnancy brought on many health issues for her, which has mainly led to her being "laid up" frequently and not being able to keep up with me in my active life. I am not much of a sit-around kind of guy. I tend to be on the go, almost always. So this led to us growing apart a bit. I'm on the go. She's not, as often.

We were openly swinging, but we had never had what either of us would consider a "relationship" with another, until last year. I met someone about six months ago. Lucy and I hit it off and became good friends very quickly. We met at a casino playing poker, and ended up staying up and eating breakfast at 6:00 am. I got home "early" in the morning, and told Zoe about her. It was all in the open. I kept seeing Lucy, and then spending time over at her house. We became close and started having sex. Zoe was fully aware of what was happening.

Of course, this all made for a bunch of interesting emotions coming up from all over. I had much NRE going on, which I hadn't experienced for many many years, and it made me really question things going on in my life. Zoe was being accepting, and we both loved the fact that our sex life was improving greatly. (It turns out that poly is great for your sex life.) I was very excited by everything going on. It really made me feel closer to Zoe, knowing that she was accepting of what was going on.

Then things got bad for Zoe. I was having sleepovers at Lucy's house frequently, and spending a lot of time with her. Although the time spent with Zoe was closer and more loving than it had been recently, I wasn't spending much time with her. So there were negative emotions coming out from one side, and positive from the other, and I further questioned my life. By the way, I'll be turning 40 next year. This looks like the story of my midlife crisis!

Anyway, big upheaval, turmoil, etc., from all directions. I spent a few days away from home, and reflected a bunch. Zoe told me to come home. She said that she didn't want me out of the house, and it was more important for me to be home than anything else. No questions asked. She wanted me back. This touched me, and was the start of us growing back closer. We are much closer, happier, and loving than we have been in years. Hooray for the happy ending!

Okay, well, that isn't quite the end. I'm still seeing Lucy. She was upset that I'd spent so much time with her, and then backed off to spend more time with Zoe again. But she has also become much more accepting of the situation now.

If it weren't for this being a new situation for all of us, and everyone getting rather confused about things, we would probably be a lot better right now, but it is a little hard to put everything behind us now, as both Zoe and Lucy were impacted by what went on during my big time of confusion.

Shortly after recommitting to Zoe, and moving back in (hard to call it that really, I was only gone a few days), she decided that she was not okay with me having sleepovers at Lucy's house anymore. This was something that caused a great upset for Lucy, but I made a decision that my marriage was more important to me than anything else through this, and I agreed to that condition.

I believe Zoe's biggest reason for this "rule" is that she is concerned that with sleepovers I might become too close and entangled and distant again. The truth is, we are very close and entangled already, but I do understand that there is a special closeness that you get from spending the night and waking up together. The other part of this is that she would like me to be home with her at night, and it is hard not to dwell on the fact that I am out of the house with another woman while she is lying in bed by herself.

One big problem here is that sleepovers were treated as okay from the beginning, and Lucy doesn't like the fact that it was taken away from her. She has "put up" with it since then, but we have not had a sleepover for months and she is not happy about that.

The biggest problem for me in this whole situation is the absolute division between lives for me. Zoe would love to "meet" Lucy, but they never have officially met. She has seen her from afar a few times when we were all at the casino together, but never spoke.

Lucy has no interest in meeting Zoe. She started out being very apprehensive about the idea of dating a married man. She is okay with that now, but she still doesn't want to meet Zoe. (I am not trying to get them to hook up or anything. Zoe is bi, and wouldn't mind it, but it is not my intention.) But I would LOVE for us to all be able to just sit down together and talk.

Everyone is accepting of each other in this situation, in that we can talk openly about each other, but this division is difficult and quite plainly feels wrong. I have been concerned about this all along, but hoped that as Lucy became more open to the fact that I am a married man, she would be more open to meeting Zoe. This has not happened. She doesn't think there is any need for her to meet Zoe, as she wants to be with me. We have discussed this several times. Her main concern that she has voiced is that I would not be the same person in regards to her when Zoe was around. I would not treat her the same, and it would be weird for her, and I do get that. Obviously it would not be the same. But I don't think it would be awful, either.

Why do I want them to meet? For one, I feel that even though there is a level of acceptance, the disconnect between things is a little hard. It feels like a dark secret, which I don't want or need this to be. I don't need extra stress in my life. Also, I would like to be able to spend more time with both of them, again, not necessarily in the bed, but socially. They both love playing board games, which I have brought up many times as something we could all do together to get to know each other. But Zoe is still not okay with that, and is put off every time I mention it.

A few nights ago, Zoe and I were going out for some drinks/dessert at a restaurant. Lucy contacted me to see if could come over. I told her what we were up to, and invited her to come join us. We would both like her to. But she, of course, declined.

I am not badgering her on this. There is no point in doing so. But I do bring it up here and there as a possible social connection in an attempt to hopefully bring her around to the idea.

So, is this healthy? Should I say that this is something that I need? I feel that, long term, this is not a good situation if Lucy is unwilling to meet my wife. If that is true, and this is doomed to failure, should I give an ultimatum? I don't want to continue down a road that is no good long term. I love spending time with her and being a part of her life, and she has been a truly great friend of mine, but this might just not be a life that is good for her, and if so, I would rather encourage her to search out a more "standard" relationship.

Thoughts?

 

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Ultimatums are one of those very heavy handed and powerful tools. They look like they can do the job in one fell swoop. The problem is that while they might drive the nail, the lack of finesse and control usually makes a huge mess of the entire project.

It's also been my experience that friendships don't react well to force. Putting two kids with competing interests in the sandbox and telling them to be best buds usually ends up with one or both getting sand in the eye a short time later. Lucy, at the very least, seems very resistant to the idea... and given the sacrifices she probably thinks she made for the sake of your wife and marriage, she may be running low on goodwill to make such a venture seem like a good idea for her.

Frankly, I don't think you have any easy answers to resolve this, and probably have some hard work, along with some tears and heartache ahead of you, no matter what. You need to figure out what you need and works best for you. Lucy needs to do the same for herself, and Zoe likewise.
Maybe if you all figure those things out, then there can be a lengthy and detailed series of discussion about what that means for each of you, and if the various relationships are worth preserving, reviving, changing or dissolving.

I'd suggest trying to keep in mind that Lucy is not part of your marriage, she's a person with her own needs, wants, and will. So like you and your wife, she deserves the consideration of making up her own mind about what's best for her. That may be a more standard relationship, and that may be struggling along with whatever type of relationship you're able to offer, if any. But she should get to make that determination, not have you try to make it for her.

Good luck.

 

[Cancelled123]

Q. Is Lucy already poly? A single person with a monogamous background might have different expectations of your relationship than someone who's used to being poly and sharing. Your marriage does come first and you need time to achieve a balance that works for everyone.

I have a husband and kids, and so does my boyfriend. We have never had a sleepover... and it's okay. Though I'd like to have one, it's difficult to plan with two households to consider.

I think that, in time, it's important that Zoe meet Lucy. I'm not saying you should push hard, but Lucy's unwillingness to meet could signal some jealousy issues. I also found that I wanted to meet my hubby's love interest because it makes me feel closer to him. And he knows mine. We all get along like good friends, and occasionally hang out together for movies and games nights. It makes us 'family.' It's a good feeling.

 

[SourGirl]

So Lucy was totally fine with things, when it all went her way, and left Zoe out in the cold, as long as she (Lucy) was on the upper end? Or did she encourage you to spend time more equally? Did she ever mention being uncomfortable with taking the lion's share of your time?

I ask this, because currently, your situation, as you've explained it, reads to me very much like Zoe previously gave you free rein, and was very patient while you went through all these things. She was the one doing the sacrificing. You made a common fuck-up and let NRE overwhelm you. It happens.

Now Zoe has asked for some current provisions so she can feel secure. You say she asks for them, because she is afraid of distance from the overnights. Well, she is right. History has proven that you forgot about her, and were confused. I don`t think it is too much to ask of you to create some new history before going back to having overnights. Keep showing Zoe that she matters too, that you are at a place where you are more grounded, and can treat her just as well as you treat Lucy. I think it is good that you have had a lot of realizations about things, and want to do right.

I don`t see any harm in catering to Zoe's wishes for now. There needs to be some room for growth in the future. Those are the kind of things that need to be made clear by all parties. Zoe shouldn't be the only one brave enough to look for growth in this situation. Lucy needs to give a bit too. While you can't, and shouldn't, try and force someone to do something they don`t want to do, there is also something to be said for the kind of character that wants and wants, takes and takes, but doesn't give much in return.

You haven`t mentioned much about Lucy having any interest beyond herself and what she wants. Maybe you can shed some light on that?

 

[Derbylicious]

In all of this with the sleepover issue it isn't clear what YOU want. There's a lot of talk about what your wife and your girlfriend want, but what is your ideal? There is probably some kind of compromise between no sleepovers at all and numerous sleepovers a week.

As for the issue of Lucy not wanting to meet your Zoe, is she comfortable with you having a wife or would she rather have you all to herself? If it is the latter, you're in for issues down the line, because that line of thinking usually ends up in "it's either her or me." If she doesn't want to meet for other reasons, it's probably best to just leave it alone and let it develop organically. Maybe they will meet one day and maybe they won't. Maybe they'll get along and maybe they won't. Just because you like her doesn't mean Zoe will, and just because you like Zoe doesn't mean Lucy will.

Metamour relationships are entirely unique. They also vary quite significantly. There is no "normal." Let it be what it is (or isn't) between the two of them. Their interaction is beyond your control. You're going to have much less stress if you just let it go.

 

[PolyMinNY]

I think you should tell Lucy that you would love to continue the relationship with her, but you are still committed to your wife also.

Let her know that the relationship with her can continue and flourish, but ONLY if she agrees to meet with Zoe. If it continues as it is, all of you will be torn and resentful, which will ultimately end the relationship.

Hopefully Lucy will understand and agree to meet Zoe. It sounds like she wants you all to herself and is not open to sharing, which to you is not an option.

Best to get it out in the open and discuss it now.

 

[zappafreak]

Is Lucy already poly? A single person with a monogamous background might have different expectations of your relationship than someone who's used to being poly and sharing. Your marriage does come first and you need time to achieve a balance that works for everyone.

I have a husband and kids, so does my boyfriend. We have never had a sleepover...and it's okay. Though I'd like to have one, it's difficult to plan with two households to consider. I think that in time, it's important that your wife meet your g/f. Not saying you should push hard, but your g/f unwillingness to meet could signal some jealousy issues. I also found that I wanted to meet my hubby's love interest because it makes me feel closer to him and he knows mine. We all get along like good friends and occasionally hang out together for movies and games nights.

Actually, no, I should have made that clear. Lucy has never had a poly relationship before. This whole thing was very foreign to her. It took some getting used to, really about up until now, for her to decide if this was something that she could actually have in her life.

It isn't a good idea to force them to meet each other, and I get that. I just feel that this is a sign of her not ever quite completely accepting my life as a whole. She says she does, and we can talk about Zoe openly, but she doesn't want to spend any time around her. I just don't know if that is a healthy situation. I have been concerned about the long term.

I very much like the idea of being able to have her over for movies, games, etc. I like the sound of what you have. It sounds like the ideal for me. It doesn't mean it is the ideal for her, though, and I have to respect that.

 

[zappafreak]

Ultimatums are one of those very heavy-handed and powerful tools. They look like they can do the job in one fell swoop. The problem is that while they might drive the nail, the lack of finesse and control usually makes a huge mess of the entire project.

Thanks. Very good advice. I'm going to let her work on things at a pace that is comfortable for her. I guess I am still left wondering whether it is healthy for this type of situation, as every poly relationship I have read about seems to be one in which all parties are at the very least comfortable being around each other. So seems that this situation might be a "dead end." That has been my concern. I'm sure there are others out there that have started relationships with a mono partner and have gone through this. The other part to that is that I know that I could spend more time with both Zoe and Lucy at once, if they could be around each other, and that I think would be the ideal for me.

 

[zappafreak]

So Lucy was totally fine with things, when it all went her way, and left Zoe out in the cold, as long as she (Lucy) was on the upper end? Or did she encourage you to spend time more equally? Did she ever mention being uncomfortable with taking the lion's share of your time?

This reads to me very much like Zoe previously gave you free rein, and was very patient while you went through all these things. She was the one doing the sacrificing. You made a common fuck-up and let NRE overwhelm you. It happens.

Now Zoe has asked for some current provisions so she can feel secure. You say she asks for them, because she is afraid of distance from the overnights. Well, she is right. History has proven that you forgot about her, and were confused. I don`t think it is to much to ask of you to create some new history before going back to overnights. Keep showing Zoe that she matters too, that you are at a place where you are more grounded, and can treat her just as well as Lucy. I think it is good that you have had a lot of realizations about things, and want to do right.

I don`t see any harm in catering to Zoe's wishes for now. There needs to be some room for growth in the future. Those are the kind of things that need to be made clear by all parties. Zoe shouldn`t be the only one brave enough to look for growth in this situation. Lucy needs to give a bit too. While you can`t, and shouldn't, try and force someone to do something they don`t want to do, there is also something to be said for the kind of character that wants and wants, and takes and takes, but doesn`t give much in return.

You haven`t mentioned much about Lucy having any interest beyond herself and what she wants. Maybe you can shed some light on that?

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Zoe has been amazing and very understanding throughout all of this. She did give me the one rule, and that was no sleepovers. I completely understand this reasoning and I am not resenting that at all. I would like to have sleepovers with Lucy, but absolutely not at the cost of causing that suffering for Zoe. This is her "line," where she feels comfortable. It is good that she knows where her line is, and I'm glad she told me.

My main concern is not the sleepovers so much, except that they are a big deal for Lucy. She keeps telling me that she is not satisfied without them. Of course, this wouldn't have been an issue if Zoe and I had had that rule to begin with. But now, Lucy views this as something having been taken away from her. I think I need to make it very clear to her that this is not going to happen. She is still holding onto the hope that I will decide to do it anyway, but it is most important that I respect what Zoe needs to be comfortable.

As to what Lucy wants-- she wants to see me about three times a week, and have a sleepover once or twice a week. She wants her own life and autonomy, but likes the idea of having me in her life.

 

[zappafreak]

It isn't clear what YOU want. There's a lot of talk about what Zoe and Lucy want, but what is your ideal? There is probably some kind of compromise between no sleepovers at all and numerous sleepovers a week.

As for the issue of Lucy not wanting to meet Zoe, is she comfortable with you having a wife, or would she rather have you all to herself? If it is the latter, you're in for issues down the line, because that line of thinking usually ends up in "it's either her or me." If she doesn't want to meet for other reasons it's probably best to just leave it alone and let it develop organically. Maybe they will meet one day, and maybe they won't. Maybe they'll get along, and maybe they won't. Just because you like Lucy doesn't mean Zoe will, and just because you like Zoe doesn't mean Lucy will.

Metamour relationships are entirely unique. They also vary quite significantly. None of them are "normal." Let it be what it is (or isn't) between the two of them. Their interaction is beyond your control. You're going to have much less stress if you just let it go

I would to be able to stay over with Lucy one night a week. I am actually not comfortable doing more than one night a week due to the children and confusion and all that. However, it is much more important to me that Zoe is comfortable with all of this, so I am willing to follow that "rule" for her to feel okay. It is much more important for Lucy for obvious reasons though, and she feels that she is willing to give up a lot for only one night a week. So then, it becomes a matter of whom do I make happy? I guess it's just easier for me to place more importance on the request/demands of the woman I have been with for 14 years than the woman I have been with for 6 months. But I don't know if that is exactly fair, either.

Do I sound a bit confused here? I think maybe.

 

[zappafreak]

I think you should tell Lucy that you would love to continue the relationship with her, but you are still committed to your wife. Let her know that the relationship with her can continue and flourish, but ONLY if she is agreeable to meet with Zoe. If it continues as it is, all of you will be torn and resentful, which will ultimately end the relationship. Hopefully Lucy will understand and agree to meet Zoe. It sounds like she wants you all to herself and not open to sharing, which to you is not an option. Best to get it out in the open and discuss it now.

I don't necessarily think that she wants me all to herself. She seems to be quite accepting of my wife and family at this point. She just doesn't want to meet her. She is cool with sharing, too, actually.

I have decided that I don't want to force them to meet. There is just too much resistance there. I guess my biggest question on this subject now is whether we can be happy with such an arrangement. It's not that I'm unhappy with it. I think it would be preferable if we could all spend time together, and I'm quite certain that I would prefer having such a relationship where it was all in the open. Maybe that is the choice that I need to make for myself.

 

[Cancelled123]

Lucy has never had a poly relationship and this whole thing was very foreign to her.

Becoming poly is a work in progress, and it's not for everyone. I'm still working at it and it's been almost a year and a half. Just keep communicating honestly with Zoe and Lucy, and make sure that Lucy's expectations are in line with yours and Zoe's. If you're slightly askew, work towards a compromise, sure. But Lucy does have to understand that you need to preserve your primary relationship also. It cannot be all about her and the NRE that you're both feeling.

I have had issues with my husband becoming jealous and needing reassurances as my relationship with my boyfriend deepened. We had some pretty tense moments and it's been a lot of work. On the whole, its been very much worth it, though. I love both men and I don't take either one for granted.

Sounds to me like the three of you have some work ahead of you if this is going to work out. I wish you luck.

 

[zappafreak]

So...update.

I just talked with Lucy for the last several hours about how things are now, and everything was good and understood until the sleepover subject came up. It has been a sore subject this whole time, but when we talked this time she decided that she absolutely wasn't happy with that. She handed me the ultimatum.

I reminded her that I had an equal ultimatum from the wife in regards to her not being okay with the sleepovers, so she told me that I should just go home to my wife then, because she was no longer going to be in this relationship if I was not going to be spending the night.

I got stuck in between two ultimatums. Wow. That sucked. Poly is difficult.

 

[Anneintherain]

I got stuck in between two ultimatums. Wow. That sucked. Poly is difficult.

That is one good reason to go slow. I think if you already have agreements with partners, it is smart to negotiate with new partners carefully, so you can be firm upfront and not have to juggle so hard later, backtracking on a promise or action you've already extended to a new relationship.

My husband and I have an agreement to meet any potential partners before we become sexual. Really, it doesn't matter if that's a two minute "Hi, how ya doing?" or a long dinner party, but it is the reluctance of a person to meet us at all in general, which makes us okay or not with them being somebody who will be a part of our lives. I know this isn't for everybody, but truthfully, an unwillingness to just know the others in our partner's life seems to be a bad thing, as far as we are concerned.

Obviously, in your situation, I would've insisted that Zoe meet me in order for your relationship to move forward. It's not for everybody, but if you think that's important to you (as it seems you aren't comfortable with how Lucy did not want to meet Zoe), then I would make it a priority with future partners.

Edit: I am sorry that it ended. I do hope you figure out what is important for you and Zoe, so if you go forward with a new partner (or your gf who you've been discussing) you can have an easier time of this. It sounds like you have been trying to do right by the people you care about.

 

[Cancelled123]

I got stuck in between two ultimatums. Wow. That sucked. Poly is difficult.

Ultimatums really aren't the way to go. There has to be room for dicussion and compromise in all relationships, not just poly.

 

[SNeacail]

Lucy wants to see me three times a week, and have a sleepover once or twice a week.

Wow! So this means you would only be a part-time parent to three kids, leaving Zoe with nearly ALL the work and responsibility. Zoe is a saint to have been able to put up with this in the past. Do you give her 2-3 nights off a week, away from the kids, to do her own thing?

 

[zappafreak]

That is one good reason to go slow. I think if you already have agreements with partners, it is smart to negotiate with new partners carefully, so you can be firm upfront and not have to juggle so hard later, backtracking on a promise or action you've already extended to a new relationship.

This has definitely been a learning experience. This has been the first real relationship that either of us have had outside of our marriage, it was all quite casual up until now. I have found that I am definitely less interested in the casual side of things now. I'm thinking more poly and less swinging. I'm glad for it, too. Personal relationships are obviously much more meaningful.

I am sorry that it ended. I do hope you figure out what is important for you and Zoe, so if you go forward with a new partner (or your gf who you've been discussing) you can have an easier time of this. It sounds like you have been trying to do right by the people you care about.

Thanks. It's been hard, but I do feel that I have a MUCH better idea of what I am looking for now. I want someone that can be okay with being around my family, and that can appreciate that I have that family. I know where the comfort level is in my household, and those things can be established from the beginning of any future relationships. We didn't have any "rules" in place to begin with, because we had never encountered this situation before, which has made for undue stress while we tried to establish our boundaries.

 

[km34]

[Sleepovers have] been a sore subject this whole time, but when we talked this time she decided that she absolutely wasn't happy with that. She handed me the ultimatum.

I reminded her that I had an equal ultimatum from Zoe in regards to her not being okay with the sleepovers, so Lucy told me that I should just go home to my wife then, because she was no longer going to be in this relationship if I was not going to be spending the night.

I got stuck in between two ultimatums. Wow. That sucked. Poly is difficult.

Quite honestly, this is NOT the kind of person I would want in my life. You have KIDS who need to have their dad at home. Even if she didn't understand her not getting the same amount of time with you as your wife gets (which, to me, is an irrational demand in a new relationship in the first place), she should understand that you also have three kids to take care of. She's not just sharing you with your wife, she's sharing you with the rest of your family, and if she refuses to meet any of them (I don't know if you even want her to meet your kids, but based on the fact that she refuses to talk to your wife, I assume she wouldn't be open to that, anyway) you have to choose: time with one person you love (her), or time with four people you love and are committed to (wife and kids).

Just a different way to think about it, but this is where my mind went when you said Lucy asked for half your nights to be spent away from home.

 

[zappafreak]

Ultimatums really aren't the way to go. There has to be room for dicussion and compromise in all relationships, not just poly.

I agree that is true, but this situation was difficult, in that it was new for ALL parties. The "no sleepover rule" was created as we found what everyone was comfortable with. Zoe discovered after the relationship had started that she was not comfortable with sleepovers. This would have been much better if it had been established to begin with, but we didn't know what effect that would have in a "relationship" manner, rather than a casual sex thing. Turns out it is a different situation when you have that deep connection, and it affects things in a whole new way.

So... I don't really blame either one of them in this situation. It was unfortunate. Lucy felt the sleepovers were something that she needed in a relationship. Zoe felt that it was not something she was comfortable with.

 

[zappafreak]

You have KIDS who need to have their dad at home. Even if she didn't understand her not getting the same amount of time with you as your wife gets (which, to me, is an irrational demand in a new relationship in the first place), she should understand that you also have three kids to take care of. She's not just sharing you with your wife, she's sharing you with the rest of your family and if she refuses to meet any of them... you have to choose: time with one person you love (her) or time with four people you love and are committed to (wife and kids).

Actually, Lucy did want to meet my kids (at least my youngest). She has two boys about her age and thought it would be fun for them to meet. I agreed that would be fun, but I wasn't comfortable with that unless she was going to meet my wife. I didn't want to introduce my child into such a situation until it felt more stable, and it obviously wasn't a stable situation.

When I talked with Lucy about this subject last month, she was looking for two sleepovers a week. I told her that I would be good with one per week, but only if it was okay with Zoe. And it wasn't. I thought that was pretty clear to her, but she was apparently waiting and hoping I would change Zoe's mind. To be honest, I don't want to. I want Zoe to accept this situation at her comfort level. That's important to me.