The Initial Conversation

[mcross80]

Don't Give Up!

MT, I just read through your story looking for encouragement in my own journey which, strange as it may seem, feels very similar. I have felt like “I’ve just gone and ruined my marriage to a wonderful woman” and I am acquainted with this pain when you say,

It feels like we are drifting back into our pre-first-discussion behavior patterns, and I really don't want that to happen. Not only due to where I'd like our relationship to go, but also because I hated where it was.

Since I dropped the poly-bomb on my wife at the beginning of this year, I have felt many times that things would end, or I would end them. These times were followed by some deep soul-searching, and trying to make sense of things.

Here are some thoughts I’ve considered:
If you were born in the U.S. in the past 50 years (I was born in San Antonio, TX by the way ), odds are, your parents were in a monogamous relationship. Your friends, family and just about anyone you knew all had a steady cultural diet of monogamy. Alternative relationships did exist, but this was not the norm. Anything not monogamy was marginalized and denigrated. From day one, we have been conditioned to believe that one man and one woman will live happily ever after. Of course, this is not reality, but as you may know, perception is reality (I say this sardonically) and people have a tendency to consciously or unconsciously subscribe to this reality.

Your desire for non-monogamy didn’t happen overnight. Your willingness to cast off the many years of adherence to apparent social norms was not unmotivated, either. You have been a most active participant in your transformation.

For your spouse, this is most decidedly not the case. Overnight (a month ago), her world turned upside down. She is not motivated to consider a change to her world and I cannot imagine a reality in which she would (not this soon, anyway).

As surely as I am troubled by my spouse’s reservations at my desire for a non-monogamous relationship, she must surely be as troubled at my desires for a non-monogamous relationship. It’s not easy to hear her say, “I don’t want non-monogamy.” It’s not easy for her to hear me say, “I want an additional long-term relationship.” Our acculturation has pitted us against each other.

We have both made it a goal of this exploration to grow stronger together. Her objections to my desires are then not a lack of commitment on her part, but rather an expression of internal fear and pain. Understanding this has helped to move the conversation from “non-monogamy vs monogamy” (fight!) to the more palpable, “let’s learn to honestly talk with each other.”

You cannot turn off the way you are. You cannot change what you are. Those things are a given. However, you don’t have to give up yourself to strongly consider the 20 years of relationship you’ve built with the most wonderful person in the world (your spouse). She is worth your effort and your consideration. She is worth the fight; the fight to find common ground, the fight to grow in this together and the fight to demonstrate to her that you love her, no matter what.

 

[IndieSolo]

All is not lost.

MT, this is still new and recent for her. Things won't change overnight. You are still going to therapy, correct? Use that time to express your frustration, see if the therapist can assist in explaining your views. Patience, patience.

 

[MorningTwilight]

As surely as I am troubled by my spouse’s reservations at my desire for a non-monogamous relationship, she must surely be as troubled at my desires for a non-monogamous relationship. It’s not easy to hear her say, “I don’t want non-monogamy.” It’s not easy for her to hear me say, “I want an additional long-term relationship.” Our acculturation has pitted us against each other.

We have both made it a goal of this exploration to grow stronger together. Her objections to my desires are then not a lack of commitment on her part but rather an expression of internal fear and pain. Understanding this has helped to move the conversation from “non-monogamy vs monogamy” (fight!) to the more palpable, “let’s learn to honestly talk with each other.”

You cannot turn off the way you are. You cannot change what you are. Those things are a given. However, you don’t have to give up yourself to strongly consider the 20 years of relationship you’ve built with the most wonderful person in the world (your spouse). She is worth your effort and your consideration. She is worth the fight; the fight to find common ground, the fight to grow in this together and the fight to demonstrate to her that you love her no matter what.

Where I am lost is how to get from here to the next step. Everyone offers a lot of vague encouragement, but they're very short on specific "here is what we did."

My wife is not, I think, in a place to examine anything below "That's not what marriage IS!" Until we can get past that, there will be no movement.

NYCindie, we need to get back and see the counselor, but she's not very warm on the idea. She wants me to talk with my parents (who themselves got divorced when I was quite young) instead. I think that would be a horrible idea, personally. All I'm going to get back is the very acculturation that mcross described.

 

[ViableAlternative]

I keep seeing posts telling you that your wife might still change her mind, come around to your way of thinking...

I don't mean to rain on the parade, but you also need to recognize that your wife has EVERY RIGHT to want to have a monogamous relationship. When you were younger, when you married her, that's what you told her she was getting. That's what she wanted, and what she agreed to. That you were (in short) young and stupid is irrelevant. You have NO RIGHT to blame her, or villainize her, or think her inflexible and selfish for continuing to want and expect what she was promised.

Your wife's requirement that she have a monogamous relationship is PERFECTLY REASONABLE. You don't get to dictate that for her.

ON THE OTHER HAND! Your desire to pursue polyamory is also PERFECTLY REASONABLE. Your wife doesn't get to dictate that for you, either.

Your wife's requirement that you either be monogamous with her, or cease to be in a relationship with her, is totally rational and reasonable. It is 100% okay and right for her to choose for herself what kind of relationship model she wishes to have.

Your need for polyamory is equally okay. But what I find distressing is all of the discussion and your seeming requirement for her to change her position. She doesn't have to change, and you really need to accept that.

She isn't forcing you into monogamy. She's telling you you can have a polyamorous relationship that doesn't involve her. From your posts, it seems and feels like you expect or require her to be in a polyamorous relationship. You really, really need to recognize that it is NOT your right to dictate HER relationship structure. Maybe you do and I'm just misinterpreting; if so, I'm sorry. But it's still relevant and bears remembering and reminding yourself.

From her point of view, you made a commitment to her years ago, and it was a lie. Set aside the fact that you were lying to yourself too; that is not her fault and not her burden to bear. If I read things right, she moved across the country to be with you, and left behind friends and family and all she knew. Is that right? If so, then you also can't point and lay blame for her desire to move back, with the kid, if you opt to start a new life without her (as she has said, polyamory = without her). How can you expect her to remain friendless and without the support of her family if you guys divorce? If her reason for being there (to be with her husband) dissolves, do you expect her to remain in what she perceives as a loveless and toxic atmosphere with no one to help her? If that's where the "threat" to move the kid came from, then I think you need to seriously analyze your way of thinking and try to think outside of your own self a little bit more.

Gosh, rereading that, it sounds very harsh. I am truly very sorry for that. I know you're going through a very, very difficult time right now. The last thing you want is to get slapped in the face with words from a stranger on the internet. But I don't know how to sugarcoat any of it, and I really feel like it needed saying.

If it means anything, I do think you've done the right thing in discussing the truth with your wife. Ending the lie, to yourself AND to her, is the only way to rebuild ANYTHING-- your love for yourself, for her, for the family you've built, for the life you want to have. This was undoubtedly the right move.

Where you go from here is a damnably-hard decision. If you choose to stay with your wife and remain monogamous, now you can rebuild a REAL relationship based on honesty and openness and trust, instead of self-shame and hiding and keep-it-to-yourself sorts of secrets. Or if you choose to pursue polyamorous relationships, you can do that with openness and honesty and trust, just not with your wife involved, as she has said.

Bear in mind that nothing in life is certain. If you stay with your wife, maybe you can have friends that you admire and love as friends. Maybe one day your wife will be okay with polyamory. Maybe she'll never, ever be okay with it.

Maybe you'll leave and try polyamory and find new loves, new passions, new desires. Or maybe you'll not find anyone who suits you, who is also polyamorous. The dating scene is hard enough for monogamous single men. It must be even worse if you shrink the available pool of women to polyamorous only.

There's a lot to think about, and you're not guaranteed anything, no matter what you choose... Such is life, I'm afraid.

 

[IndieSolo]

Your parents?! No, no, no! Why get your parents involved? I would think she'd be more amenable to a professional. I think that, at some point, you will have to stand firm and say, "We have to talk about this in counseling. I will not involve my parents."

I hope there are more members here who have been in a similar place who will share with you how they went forward!

Just as much as she is adamant about what marriage is supposed to be, you are as adamant about what it can be. You already understand her side, because it's been taught to you all your life. But she is not making any effort to understand your side. I don't know how you can convince her to open her mind, but I think you might want to say that the therapy would be useful for more than just this issue - because obviously there were things you've wanted to share/talk about with her for a long time and couldn't. So, she should want to see if there are other deeper issues that need to be addressed.

I don't know, but I am keeping my fingers crossed for you both.

 

[MorningTwilight]

There may be some good in what you say below, but there are also a number of erroneous assumptions, starting with the biggest one first:

From your posts, it seems and feels like you expect or require her to be in a polyamorous relationship.

I never wrote that and I never assumed it. I greatly desire it as an alternative to ending our marriage. I hope that it can come to pass. Parting is extremely painful (and, I believe, unnecessary and wasteful).

From her point of view, you made a commitment to her years ago, and it was a lie. Set aside the fact that you were lying to yourself too; that is not her fault and not her burden to bear. If I read things right, she moved across the country to be with you, and left behind friends and family and all she knew. Is that right? If so, then you also can't point and lay blame for her desire to move back, with the kid, if you opt to start a new life without her (as she has said, polyamory = without her).

Iwas with you up until that last sentence. YES, I ABSOLUTELY WOULD LAY BLAME FOR TAKING MY CHILD AWAY. That would not only be horrible for me, but it would be devastating for him. It is mostly for him that I am unwilling to chuck it all without trying damned hard to make it all work out for all of us.

How can you expect her to remain friendless and without the support of her family if you guys divorce? If her reason for being there (to be with her husband) dissolves, do you expect her to remain in what she perceives as a loveless and toxic atmosphere with no one to help her? If that's where the "threat" to move the kid came from, then I think you need to seriously analyze your way of thinking and try to think outside of your own self a little bit more.

I think you need to stop making shit up and ascribing it to me. I do not expect her to remain friendless. If she wants to end our marriage (I certainly don't), then what I expect is for both of us to choose what's best for our son. That most emphatically does NOT mean moving him to the other side of the country from his father.

And, before you start making more shit up, this is not a one-way expectation on my part. Why the hell do you think I've not said "fuck it" on my part, taken off my ring, and started living life as I wish it?

Deep breath.

Let's practice NVC.

I get VERY PISSED OFF when people go off half-assed, put words in my mouth, and then proceed to argue against them.

OK, not so good on the NV part, but you get the idea.

Gosh, rereading that, it's all very harsh, and I am truly very sorry for that. I know you're going through a very, very difficult time right now. The last thing you want is to get slapped in the face with words from a stranger on the internet. But I don't know how to sugarcoat any of it, and I really feel like it needed saying.

How very special for you.

If it means anything, I do think you've done the right thing in discussing the truth with your wife. Ending the lie, to yourself AND to her, is the only way to rebuild ANYTHING-- your love for yourself, for her, for the family you've built, for the life you want to have. This was undoubtedly the right move. Where you go from here is a damnably hard decision. If you choose to stay with your wife and remain monogamous, now you can rebuild a REAL relationship based on honesty and openness and trust, instead of self-shame and hiding and keep-it-to-yourself sorts of secrets.

That sounds like all roses and unicorns, but honestly, just how would that would be possible? I'm sick to death of platitudes and vague advice.

"Oh, now you can be honest with each other." FUCK NO, I CAN'T! The response I got from this most recent discussion was, "Well, maybe we should just throw in the towel." SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR IT. SHE WANTS THE PRETENSE SHE HAD BEFORE.

 

[SNeacail]

Where I am lost is how to get from here to the next step. Everyone offers a lot of vague encouragement, but they're very short on specific "Here is what we did."

There are LOTS of places on this board where people have described what they did, not any one the same. No one can give you absolute specifics, as what worked for one couple likely won't work for you.

My wife is not, I think, in a place to examine anything below "That's not what marriage IS!" Until we can get past that, there will be no movement.

Very true. This may not even be helpful, but I would suggest each of you should take a few days to a week and make a list of what you think "marriage IS" and "marriage is NOT" and WHY ("Because it's always been that way" is not an acceptable answer). At the end of the week, make a list of the items you agree on. Then discuss the WHYs (might be different). Then look at the stuff you don't agree on. This might give each of you a better understanding of each other without one person immediately putting up defensive walls and stopping listening.

NYCindie, we need to get back and see the counselor, but she's not very warm on the idea. She wants me to talk with my parents (who themselves got divorced when I was quite young) instead. I think that would be a horrible idea, personally.

That she is reluctant to go back to the counselor tells me that you guys have bigger issues in your marriage than your need to be poly. My husband and I have been in counseling for 10 months. Granted, we are only going once a month now, but you can't hope to actually fix a marriage in only 6 weeks (or what ever limited timeframe someone else determines).

LEAVE THE PARENTS OUT OF IT! Your marriage issues are none of their fucking business.

Side note: you may want to talk with an attorney on how to prevent her from even taking one step out of state with your kid, if thing go south. If it were me, I would be scared that I would come home one day to find then already gone.

 

[JnR]

Lots of anger on this post! No one can tell you what the magic trick is to do, but can only offer their opinion and advice.

 

[Snowbunting]

I sympathize

MT, I completely sympathize with what you're experiencing. I've been going through a process that's very similar to the process that you've been going through. In my case, my husband and I ultimately decided to separate, so maybe our two situations will end up having very different outcomes. In any case, my husband (I'll call him "P") and I were recently just about where you and your wife seem to be, and we did move beyond that point, so I thought I'd mention a few things that helped us move forward.

First, we listened to some podcasts and talked about them. Dan Savage was a huge help here. P began by listening to his recent interview with Terry Gross, and then listened to several episodes of the "Savage Love" podcast. We also listened to a couple of "Sex is Fun" podcasts (although if you think about doing this, I'd recommend screening them first. I definitely didn't want P to listen to just any "Sex is Fun" podcast, because I didn't want to alienate him by introducing him to something that might seem a bit too non-vanilla to him). In any case, I imagine that there are other helpful podcasts out there, as well, that can provide good material for discussion.

P and I also read some things, e.g., the last two chapters of Open Marriage by George and Nena O'Neill. This book was originally published in 1972, and is outdated in many ways, but the last two chapters gave us some very helpful material for discussion. (A quick note: I did not present this reading material to P by saying, "This is what I want our marriage to be like." I just presented it as something we could read together and talk about. There were specific parts of those two chapters that I brought up in conversation, just as ideas to discuss, and those conversations were quite helpful.)

One more quick comment in connection with the above point about reading: I think that it would have been wonderful for P to have explored this forum, but somehow, that hasn't happened yet. I hope that it does.

Another helpful factor: my husband met and talked with the members of a polyamorous family-- a triad raising a lovely, very happy daughter. He ended up really liking each parent and recognizing that there's nothing unnatural or unhealthy about their situation. He could see that they were simply three intelligent, kind, caring people who adore their daughter and love one another very much. I think this experience helped to stretch P's ideas about what marriage could look like.

Finally, we talked and talked and talked (although we did take breaks too!). All of this communication was very helpful in moving us forward and keeping us from getting stuck for too long. One point that I kept emphasizing was that the problem was not that I want to sleep with other people and/or add sexual excitement to my life. Rather, what I ache for is a certain "architecture of love" (for lack of a better phrase) in my life: the possibility of multiple close, loving connections with straight men (I'm straight myself) that may or may not include certain kinds of physical components (physical components that would be acceptable to everyone involved, including P, of course).

During our conversations, I used lots of metaphors, e.g., a sun-loving plant that's been growing in a shady place, an organism that hasn't been getting all of the proper nutrients, etc. I admit, these metaphors are a bit lame. Maybe, if you use metaphors, you can think of better ones!

Anyway, the important thing here is that I emphasized that I'm constitutionally the sort of person who is incomplete without certain kinds of loving relationships (rather than a person who simply has a certain kind of sexual appetite). And of course, in all of this talking, I tried to listen to P as much as possible and to be a receptive, charitable audience. I tried to see things from his point of view insofar as I could, and I tried to make sure that I was always taking his well-being into account. (I hope that I succeeded, at least to some extent, here. In any case, I almost didn't mention this point about listening, because it sounds like you've been doing that very well.)

All of these factors (podcasts, the O'Neills, experiences, conversations) helped P to see that a healthy, fulfilling marriage can differ from the common paradigm of a union between two (and only two) completely monogamous people. Sadly, in the end, P and I don't fit. I'm poly, and want very much to live in a situation in which at least a little bit of poly behavior is possible, and P is mono, and wants to be married to someone else who is mono (though, of course, I'm definitely not suggesting that any couple that fits this description should separate). In any case, through all of the podcasts, experiences, conversations, etc., we did develop understanding, recognition, and acceptance of the (different) conditions under which each of us is most likely to flourish. And we've affirmed our love and respect for one another again and again. We seem to have arrived at a place that's at least peaceful, even though I'm still experiencing a lot of pain and grief in connection with our impending separation.

There's one more suggestion I want to make before signing off: might it be helpful to go, with some regularity, to a counselor/therapist on your own? Of course, I don't know whether this would be helpful for you, but I can say that it sure has been helpful for me. The psychologist I've been seeing has given me many very helpful insights. He has also been a concrete, physically-present person who is a kind of coach-and-cheerleader-wrapped-into-one, and that has been both helpful and comforting.

Well, MT, I hope there's something above that's useful. I'm not at all sure that P and I went about things in the best or most skillful way (indeed, there are lots of people in our lives who view our separation as a massive failure, and I can think of a number of specific mistakes that I made along the way). But we did move past the stuck point you describe, so I thought I'd share some of the specific experiences that helped us do that.

From my perspective, it's clear that you're trying very hard to do what's most loving and compassionate for everyone in your family. I wish all of you the very best.

 

[redpepper]

Hi, MT. Take a breath, my friend. It's only been a short while. You are at likely at your wits end, but the struggle has just begun. Remember this is all new, and time changes things, drastically sometimes. Keep breathing and talking, being honest and compassionate at the same time.

Allow her as much time as she needs, but keep insisting that this is who you are, if this is what you believe yourself to be. Then wait and be patient... have places for her to search for answers lined up, like here, and have books ready for the two of you to read.

If this is to be your future, then you will need to invest in it. You can't go and take out a line of credit on poly; you have to save up for what you want. It's not instant and all will be revealed.

The biggest advice I have is to be compassionate... empathy breeds empathy, and it is more likely she will come around to having empathy for you if you do for her.

I started on this journey 17 years ago... This has how it has worked for me in my life. I lost a partner along the way, my ex-wife, but all was for the better. I believed in fate, and that I don't have control of the future, as far as others are concerned. I just trusted that all would be revealed, and it was.

 

[MorningTwilight]

(...lots of good advice about introducing one's mono partner to positive poly role models, so that the idea isn't completely alien, and the mono partner gets to see that it actually can work...)

(...suggestion to see a counselor on my own if my wife won't go...)

(...SB and her husband are parting over this, at least amicably...)

I'm sorry that it's not working out the way you wanted. Your suggestions are good ones, and I do hope to find, specifically, some mono/poly couples who are raising kids of their own, for my wife to meet, if she's willing. Right now she's stuck on "NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, or else it's over."

Hi MT. Take a breath, my friend. It's only been a short while... the struggle has just begun. Remember this is all new and time changes things, drastically sometimes. Keep being honest and compassionate.

Allow her as much time as she needs, but keep insisting that this is who you are, if this is what you believe yourself to be. Then wait and be patient... have places for her to search for answers lined up, like here, and have books ready for the two of you to read.

I want to, but see above. Right now she doesn't want to budge, and doesn't want to hear it. I fear that if I don't let some more time pass, the next discussion will push us past the brink. Right now, it's merely mighty cold between us.

Empathy breeds empathy. It is more likely she will come around to having empathy for you if you do for her.

I do, but she doesn't see it. I've spent the last three weeks noticing her, complimenting her, being nice to her, going out of my way to do the little things that I should have been doing all along, and specifically NOT talking about poly until yesterday. What else can I do? "Have empathy" is pretty vague.

Whatever happens, I will survive. I do not want to inflict the pain and damage of divorce or (as my wife favors) permanent separation upon my son, however. I've lived through that, and although I fared better than my sibling, it still left scars. My sibling never really got over it, and has many problems to this day, more than thirty years later.

MT

 

[TruckerPete]

Whatever happens, I will survive. I do not want to inflict the pain and damage of divorce or (as my wife favors) permanent separation upon my son, however. I've lived through that, and although I fared better than my sibling, it still left scars. My sibling never really got over it, and has many problems to this day, more than thirty years later.

I just want to say that divorce isn't the worst thing in the world. Staying together when you should be divorced is much worse. I'm not saying you and your wife are in this position, but I was a kid whose parents should have been divorced. (When I was five I apparently told my grandmother that I wished they would get a divorce.)

So, while your parents' divorce may have been terrible, my parents' not-divorce was terrible, too.

My parents did finally separate, after 27 years of marriage. It's wonderful to see my Dad happy, treated well, and really living his life after so long.

 

[redpepper]

Empathy isn't about staying quiet about it and doing nice things, though. It's about understanding it's hard for her, but you have to be yourself, for your own mental health.

Empathetic talk is saying things like, "I know this is hard for you, but I want to tell you about this article I read about jealousy in poly. Would you look at it with me some time? When would be good?" It's a about keeping her attuned to what is going on for her and allowing her to have her emotions about it.

I don't suggest you let her know about crushes and possibilities for a very long time. Just keep to the basics in how poly changes how you look at relationships. That change is big enough for now. Her freaking out about the whole picture isn't going to help; baby steps in little pieces will, I believe, get you to some kind of change.

 

[Tia27]

I know it's tough to know that you cant always get what you want.

When I initially brought up the idea of me wanting to meet new people and allowing myself to fall in love with another man,, my husband reacted in the same way as your wife. He couldn’t see himself sharing me with someone else. He said people want to feel special, in that he is the only one I love. He couldn’t ever see himself loving another woman.

He, however, did not threaten me with divorce. The opposite. We hate now that he has to worry about me leaving him. I try to reassure him that I love him just as much as I ever did and I want to be with him always. Just that I'm lonely and I feel we have room in our lives for more. He fears being left out. He will never leave me, no matter what I do, and I'm grateful for that.

It's hard for people to take the feeling of not being enough for their partner. And it scares people to think of a stranger in their lives, and their partner being in love with them. I think it's important for any potential new love to be very much a part of the spouse’s life as well. I could never be with anyone my husband wasn’t very good friends with. (This has happened to us before and it was messy.)

If you had another woman, don’t you think that your wife would be afraid of the unknown? What you did with her that you don’t do with your wife. Anything in general. And if your wife is in any way self-conscious, and you would know if she were, it makes things even more difficult for her to deal with the thought of not being enough for you.

So, as of now, I am very much aware of my husband's feelings. He doesn't want me to be with another man, although he would be okay with a girl. I respect his feelings. I am not looking for a man. If I ever did happen to met a man that caught my interest, the very first thing I would do is tell my husband I wanted them to meet. We would all have to become friends together, and go from there. I know that I can't let myself be anything more than a friend with him until my husband felt comfortable with it. And I can expect that he may never be able to, because I love my husband and he can be enough for me sexually.

But I do plan on making new friends, male and female. We humans can have strong love for our friends. Sex and attraction aren’t necessary. It's actually a distraction and a problem causer. Keep in mind you can have strong relationships with a friend. And let your friend know there is no way you could ever be sexual with them. It's just not in the best interest of others you so greatly care about.

Be happy to have what you do have and focus your efforts on that!

 

[girluv4u]

You already know what to do and what is right. Let her go. It's clear she is not poly and wants one partner to make her happy and you do not. Why stay and make you BOTH unhappy? Let her go and she can find what she needs, as well as YOU can. Do NOT let your kid see two unhappy parents and think that's how a marriage should be.

 

[MorningTwilight]

You already know what to do and what is right. Let her go.. its clear she is not poly and wants one partner to make her happy and you do not...

It may come to that. After nearly twenty years together, however, I think three weeks is FAR too early into this to throw in the towel. I have been with her almost my entire adult life.

Many people here have been where we are, and have successfully made it work. I'm not ready to quit just yet.

Do NOT let your kid see two unhappy parents and think that's how a marriage should be,

On this we agree. The trouble would be working it out so that our boy can grow up with free access to both parents. Every day, there is something important that he learns from both of us, and he is very affectionate and sensitive. Being forced to choose would crush him.

Understand, what makes me unhappy is the thought that my wife is going to chuck me into the waste can. Other than this issue, we get along fantastically; we are very much a team. If we must end, then I hope we can at least be amicable, and raise our boy as friends, in the same city (and perhaps even in the same house, though that would be weird at first).

 

[PenguinDreams]

If you can honestly tell your wife that your desire for additional relationships and your feelings for other women have nothing to do with your wife and anything that's lacking between you two, then hopefully that makes it easier to understand that her walking away (if it comes to that) is not a rejection of you, but of a relationship model that just doesn't work for her. It is not you she's chucking in the waste can.

Sometimes people just have irreconcilable relationship goals, and that's okay.

I would think having empathy for her would include recognizing and respecting that she has a right to want what she wants and pursue that, just as you do. There's no magic formula for converting a mono partner. and no amount of persuasion, coercion or manipulation is going to make her more accepting of what you want. All you can do is be honest about your needs, provide information, and give her some time to decide if this is a compromise she's willing to make.

 

[MorningTwilight]

If you can honestly tell your wife that your desire for additional relationships, and your feelings for other women have nothing to do with your wife, and anything that's lacking between you two, then hopefully that makes it easier to understand that her walking away (if it comes to that) is not a rejection of you, but of a relationship model that just doesn't work for her. It is not you she's chucking in the waste can.

I can understand not wanting a particular relationship model. What I don't want to accept is a blind "NO!" without even making any effort to try to find a model that works for us, whatever shape that takes. We haven't even gotten to a discussion of what might be acceptable (e.g., no sex, but being affectionate might be okay), because she stops with a blanket statement about what she believes marriage "is." It's really odd--neither of us are religious, so I don't even know where that is coming from. As it turns out, she's also adamantly against the notion of gay marriage, which also baffles me, given our mutual atheist bent.

I absolutely don't want to try to force her into a relationship style that makes her miserable (as if forcing her would even be possible); however, I still honestly and truly do love her, and there's also our son to consider. I don't want our marriage to dissolve without giving an honest go at trying to find a compromise of some sort that we can both live with.

She attempts to frame the discussion as if it's a choice that I have to make: her or a new lifestyle. I do not believe that I have a choice. I cannot choose not to be what I am. I have honestly tried, and it has not worked. That road led to guilt and self-hatred at not being able to live up to the monogamous ideal that I thought was expected of me. She thinks I'm being selfish, but that of course does not take into consideration the years in which I suppressed my feelings for others, and the fact that I've never stepped a toe out of line.

What I think is really going on with her is that she's afraid of change, and afraid of losing the security that she thought she had, and that fear is so great that she'd rather end the relationship. But she doesn't want to be the bad guy. She doesn't want to have to second-guess herself down the road, wondering if she did the right thing. It would be easier for her if I were the bad guy who ended the marriage, so she could simply blame me for her pain. I'm not going to do that. I don't want our marriage to end, and I will not be her bad guy. She'll have to be her own bad guy, if that's what it comes to.

So, for now, we're at an uneasy truce. I agreed not to seek or see anyone else while we worked through this, and I'm going to keep that agreement (though she somehow interpreted that as me saying that I'm going to try to get over it and just be monogamous with her). She has turned cold fish. She only tells me she loves me when she slips and lets her guard down. And we are not affectionate with each other. I hate it, but I guess that's the way it has to be for now.

I'm trying not to take it personally, just take deep breaths and let her process, give it time and see what happens. I don't know how long to give it, and that makes it tough. I show love by touch and affirmation, and feeling like it is unwelcome makes me feel like we're letting our love wither, deliberately.

I guess that would be something worth discussing, without bringing poly into it (though I'm certain she would bring it up). She has told me that she feels like she needs to protect herself (from what?), and that's where the cold treatment is coming from. She doesn't believe that a marriage can work where there is no exclusivity. She doesn't even want to consider that possibility, at least, not right now. I know that, in the path that so many other mono/poly couples have taken, these feelings are very common in the mono partner, so I'm hopeful that, in time, I can at least get her to think about it-- no commitment to do, just to think.

I can't renounce who I am and promise to love only her. Even when I tried to suppress it, I still did not love only her. I won't lie to her anymore.

If that isn't something she can live with, then she'll have to be her own bad guy.

 

[MorningTwilight]

I was reading a post by nycindie in another thread, in which she wrote that it can take up to two years to heal after a divorce. This reason, among others, is why I don't want to lightly chuck my marriage.

Anyway, two lightbulbs went on:

1) When I met my wife, she was finalizing the divorce to her first husband. Even though it was an amicable divorce, she did not have that healing period between him and me. I just stepped in as he was stepping out. I have little doubt that has a lot to do with why my wife feels the way she does. I'm not sure how to bring that up.

2) When I met my wife (almost twenty years ago), I was moving into the apartment next door, having moved to a new state to start a new job. I had a steady girl back home, and did the cowardly thing. I started the relationship with my wife by cheating on my old girlfriend. I disclosed that to my future wife the very next day, and expected to be told she never wanted to see me again. She didn't say that. We ended up together, and got married. I did end up deeply hurting the "girl back home." I have never ever done that again. I'm sure this is also at the bottom of my wife's feelings towards polyamory. I find it ironic that she was fine with gaining me by cheating, but is not fine with sharing me in ethical, honest non-monogamy, but pointing out that irony will not, I think, be helpful.

I think that I'll need a counselor's help to work through both of these. Getting her in to see the counselor may well be a fight. Not sure how to bring it all up again.

 

[IndieSolo]

MT, you're coming across much stronger now. That is good. I always get the sense that you are walking on eggshells around your wife. You don't know how to broach any aspect of this with her because she is shutting you down. Have you ever even gotten a chance to talk about how much you've been constricting yourself to fit the monoamorous ideal all these years, or does she simply stonewall you immediately?

You are such an eloquent and expressive writer. What about putting everything in a letter and giving it to her? Do you think she would read it?