The Second Start

[Ceoli]

I am overly concerned that I will bring things up, and they will decide to include me on the basis that I am consistently having issues, instead of just wanting to include me because they are ready.

High-quality communication can easily solve this issue. I firmly believe that holding back genuine feelings makes relationships more difficult. The idea is that you can share your feelings without attaching expectations to them. There's a big difference.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

The idea is that you can share your feelings without attaching expectations to them.

This is quite profound. I sometimes hold back, because I assume my feelings are asking for change I don't really want. Maybe being very specific in the lack of expectation is a way to be heard, without looking like you are asking for something from your partners. This is a freeing concept.

 

[polytriad]

You can't commit to the changes in your emotions. That is an unfair requirement that you have put on yourself. Things change. That is guaranteed. If they are "committed" to doing this in a respectful and healthy way, then they will understand that.

I wish I knew then what I know now. I didn't think it would be this difficult. But after weighing this fact: "My wife, whom I love, is involved with Nikki, whom I love, and I'm not able to share in those moments"-- yeah, what was I thinking?

On another note, I think they have both come to the conclusion that they both want to be in a long-term relationship with each other, which, in my opinion, is the point where we should all work together toward our triad. Yet they still are set on building their relationship without me. And it's driving me crazy.

What I am most afraid of is all of us getting used to the way things are now, where Wifey has separate time with me, and separate time with Nikki. Whereas the only people dealing with our loved ones being with someone else will be Nikki and me. Wifey has it made in the shade. She has both of us living here, at her beck and call. Why would she want a change? I will admit, that with her being the slowest common denominator, she has the most say on the pace of things. And Nikki will follow suit, because, like I said before, she doesn't want to push Wifey away.

 

[polytriad]

High quality communication can easily solve this issue. I still pretty firmly believe that holding back genuine feelings makes relationships more difficult. The idea is that you can share your feelings without attaching expectations to them. There's a big difference.

If my feelings are being expressed, doesn't it go without saying that I want things to change? Just expressing how I feel will not solve the issue.

This is quite profound. I sometimes hold back because I assume my feelings are asking for change that I don't really want. Maybe being very specific in the lack of expectation is a way to be heard without looking like you are asking for something from your partners. This is a freeing concept.

This is how I am feeling now. So I bite back my words and I don't express myself the way I would like to. The truth is that you might not have expectations, but you expect change one way or another, otherwise you wouldn't bring it up.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

You might not have expectations, but you expect change one way or another, otherwise you wouldn't bring it up.

Yes, there might be a "passive" hope that change will, in fact, occur. I still think you need to tell them how you are feeling. Bottling stuff up is a recipe for disaster, my friend. The longer you put it off, the more little things will be added, and suppressed as well, in my opinion. You are in this for the long haul, it seems. The long haul requires a lot of work. I mean a lot.

I spent a good six months of intense work to start truly seeing the possibilities. Six months of very open communication and a fair share of confrontation. Redpepper would agree. This isn't easy when you are trying to build a sustainable family-type situation.

I think it's best that you all become very aware that this is going to push each of you, and the sooner you deal with issues, the better things will become. You don't need to do all the work. There are three of you involved right now, so start sharing the burden and supporting each other.

 

[Ceoli]

If my feelings are being expressed, doesn't it go without saying that I want things to change? Just expressing how I feel will not solve the issue.

This is how I am feeling now. So I bite back my words and I don't express myself the way I would like to. the truth is that you might not have expectations, but you expect change one way or another, otherwise you wouldn't bring it up.

When I'm working with my own expectations, I work hard to make sure to be realistic with it. Usually, if I'm in a situation where I'm having hard feelings over something, I keep my expectations to two things: I expect to be listened to, and I expect my partner to consider my feelings. If my partner needs to keep things the same after considering my feelings, we talk about that. Since I know my partner makes his decisions in a way that honors my feelings, I actually find it easier to cope with the situation, even if it hasn't changed.

It also works a lot easier when people work from the general assumption that everyone in the relationship should take responsibility for their own feelings and emotions. So instead of saying, "You guys having your relationship is making me feel left out," I would say "I'm really struggling with my feelings as you guys grow closer, and I would love some support as I figure out how to make this work for me."

I've yet to see a relationship that was saved in the long term by martyrdom.

Basically, being open with your feelings, without expectations or attachment to a specific outcome, prevents things from being stuck. It doesn't make things easier; it just allows things to move and grow.

I've noticed that you are very attached to this specific outcome of having a triad. You keep holding that out as an ultimate goal with everything you're doing. I don't know what's best for you, but if I were in that situation, I would honestly need to back down from that goal and set it aside. You seem to be setting it aside in practice, but not in intent. Triads rarely work if they are pre-scripted and forced into existence.

 

[polytriad]

Yes,

There might be a "passive" hope that change will occur. I still think you need to tell them how you are feeling. Bottling stuff up is a recipe for disaster, my friend. The longer you put it off, the more little things will be added and suppressed. The long haul requires a lot of work. This isn't easy when you are trying to build a sustainable family type situation. I think it's best that you all become very aware that this is going to push each of you, and the sooner you deal with issues the better things will become. You don't need to do all the work. Start sharing the burden and supporting each other.

I am definitely feeling the difficulty, which was expected. I just didn't think it would be so early. I am very comfortable with confrontation. I love a good debate. I love talking out my issues. The problem is that I am also very passionate with my ideas. I think all of them through and present facts to support my ideas/feelings. Because of this, when we all talk, almost everything they say, I have already thought of, and come up with a solution or a comment to that point. This makes them feel like it's my way or the highway, when in reality, I am hoping one of them will have a opinion that will cohesively work for the three of us. (FYI, nether of them like confrontation.)

When I'm working with my own expectations, I work hard to make sure to be realistic with it. If I'm in a situation where I'm having hard feelings over something, I expect to be listened to. I expect my partner to consider my feelings. If my partner needs to keep things the same after considering my feelings, we talk about that. Since I know my partner makes his decisions in a way that honors my feelings, I actually find it easier to cope with the situation even if it hasn't changed.

I truly would love to feel this way. I think that I, like your partners, take Wifey's and Nikki's feelings into consideration.

Everyone in the relationship should take responsibility for their own feelings and emotions. So instead of saying "You guys having your relationship is making me feel left out," I would say "I'm really struggling with my feelings as you guys grow closer, and I would love some support as I figure out how to make this work for me."

I've yet to see a relationship that was saved in the long term by martyrdom.

Being open with your feelings without expectation or attachment to a specific outcome prevents things from being stuck. It doesn't make things easier, it just allows things to move and grow.

I am quite fascinated at how well you are understanding this situation! Much thanks are due unto you! Your partners have a great catch!

I really like the way you use your words. You are saying what I want to say, but in a non-confrontational way. It's presented in a way that begets commentary or open discussion. In a way, where I am stating how I feel and asking for help with suggestions on how to not feel this way. Each person will feel like making a change is self-initiated and that will be their contribution to the greater good.

I've noticed that you are very attached to this specific outcome of having a triad. You keep holding that out as an ultimate goal with everything you're doing. I don't know what's best for you, but if I was in that situation, I would honestly need to back down from that goal and set it aside. You seem to be setting it aside in practice, but not in intent. Triads rarely work if they are pre-scripted and forced into existence.

What I understand from what Wifey and Nikki say is that this way we are doing it keeps it from being pre-scripted and forced into existence. I would agree that I am very attached to the triad. We all agreed that the triad works best in terms of making Nikki as much apart of our lives as I am or Wifey is. We don't want her to feel second, but Wifey doesn't want to not feel first herself, so the solution is to create an equal triad.

 

[Ceoli]

I truly would love to feel this way. I think that I, like your partners take wifey and Nikki's feelings into consideration.

That's awesome. Just remember that it's okay for you to expect them to take your feelings into consideration, too.

 

[polytriad]

Hello all,

I have bad news and it's not sitting well with me. Wifey has decided that she does not want to have a poly relationship because she can't deal with the fact that Nikki and I are in love. During this dating process, she and Nikki have been in, she has blocked herself from having feelings for Nikki because she doesn't want to "share" me. She feels that I am the best and she wants me all to herself.

Since I feel like Wifey is the best too, that would be a reason as to why I would want to let Nikki experience that. I want Nikki to feel how hard she loves and how it feels to have such a great person in her life. Wifey feels like since I'm her "best" that she would rather keep me to herself.

To add to things, Wifey had a conversation with Nikki telling her that she didn't have romantic feelings for her, and that poly never seemed like a long-term thing to her. Nikki wanting this relationship to work as much as I do, told Wifey that she was willing to do whatever it took to make this work. She was hurt to hear that Wifey didn't have feelings for her.

I'm not going to drop my feelings for Nikki because Wifey can't deal. I don't to be with someone who is selfish, which is how I feel she is being.

Wifey has contacted our poly counsellor to schedule a meeting to see if she can work through dealing with my feelings for Nikki. But the problem is that since she told Nikki she wasn't feeling her romantically, Nikki is also having second thoughts about being with Wifey.

I'M PULLING MY HAIR OUT OVER HERE.

 

[Ceoli]

Ack! I'm really really sorry to hear that, but I have to be honest. After everything that's been written about in this thread, I really can't say that this comes as a surprise to me.

 

[polytriad]

I feel like this is turning into a soap opera "A Day in the Life of a Poly Triad."

We all had a very open communication session and aired out a lot of things. We are not back on the path to a poly triad. We will be seeing a poly-friendly counselor.

 

[CielDuMatin]

Well, hopefully this will help you get further down the road of learning where each of you are in your feelings on poly and relationships. Sometimes it's not until we actually experience something that we really know how we feel. We make our best possible informed guess, but reality can sometimes be quite different.

With any luck, it will help each of you be able to be more open with each other about how you really feel.

 

[polytriad]

After the long deep conversation between the three of us, Nikki and Wifey had a conversation one-on-one the next day.

During our group conversation, it was identified that Wifey wasn't able to develop romantic feelings for Nikki because I reverted my relationship with Wifey to the same level that Nikki's relationship with Wifey was. For example:

Nikki and Wifey were not having sex, so Wifey and I weren’t having sex. Nikki and Wifey weren’t cuddling, so Wifey and I weren’t cuddling, etc.

I wasn't doing this on purpose. It was just happening that way. I think subconsciously I was worried that if Nikki were to see that Wifey and I were doing things she and Wifey weren’t, it would bother her.

It was also identified that my focus was on both Wifey and Nikki, instead of just being on Wifey. Nikki and Wifey were supposed to be dating, and Nikki and I were supposed to behave as friends. Nikki and I were, in effect, supposed to be showering Wifey with love. Nikki was doing her part and I wasn’t. Because of my subconscious reverting, Wifey was trying to figure out why our relationship had reverted, which gave little or no time to focus on developing her relationship with Nikki. She was constantly worried about how her actions with Nikki would affect her standings with me. This resulted in Wifey feeling that if she were to be in a triad with Nikki and me, she would get more of Nikki and less of me. This was definitely not the perception we wanted to linger over the idea of a triad, nor was it a good representation of how we wanted things to be long term.

It turns out that Wifey's feelings for Nikki weren’t being affected by the way I feel about Nikki. Her feelings were being affected based on the way she felt I was treating her, based on the way she was treating Nikki. This may have caused some misplaced resentment toward Nikki. The resentment also was developing because I was doing things for Nikki, such as helping her cook or do laundry when I don’t do those things for Wifey.

The outcome of our conversations, both separately and together, helped us grow and refocus on our common goal. Wifey and Nikki wiped the slate clean and are starting over. I am going to make sure to keep my focus on Wifey and her needs. Nikki will do that same. Wifey expressed that she can return our energy full circle, meaning that if I am giving her love, she can not only give it back to me, but to Nikki as well, and vice versa.

I am happy about the outcome, but I am starting to feel like I'm resenting Wifey for preventing me for being with Nikki. What do I do?

 

[NeonKaos]

I wish you had a name for your wife other than "Wifey". "Nikki" has a name. "Wifey" sounds more like she's not a person but could be anyone in the "role" of "Wifey".

 

[CielDuMatin]

This "keeping score" thing is disturbing. All the more because in the past I have done it.

You have to let each of the four relationships in this group (you and your wife, your wife and Nikki, you and Nikki, and the three of you) develop as they need to. You have to stop second-guessing the others, too - and you have to establish the dynamic that if someone is uncomfortable with something they will tell you and then the three of you can work to resolve whatever is disturbing. For example "It makes me uncomfortable when I see you two french kiss" doesn't necessarily mean you stop french kissing, but you do it in private.

It's too easy to get into a dance of doing what you think others want you to do, and crippling yourself and your relationships in the process. If you're not sure about something, then get into the habit of asking.

 

[polytriad]

I wish you had a name for your wife other than "Wifey". "Nikki" has a name. "Wifey" sounds more like she's not a person but could be anyone in the "role" of "Wifey".

This is the actually what everyone in our circle of friends and family calls her. There is a funny story behind it.

 

[NeonKaos]

This is the actually what everyone in our circle of friends and family calls her. There is a funny story behind it.

Well then, if it's her real nickname then I guess I can stand it after all.

 

[polytriad]

Ciel, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "keeping score."

Both Nikki and Wifey are very passive, so their relationship is progressing really slowly. Meanwhile, I am waiting around for the grand invite! I am very forward, aggressive, and outspoken, so I see opportunities where progression can happen in their relationship, and it frustrates me to see them not taking them. I love to talk issues out, but I don't see a feasible resolution, as Wifey is not ready to include me in on the relationship. This in turn only makes me desire Nikki more, and feel resentment toward Wifey.

In the beginning of this plan for Wifey to date Nikki, and Nikki and me to just be friends, I understood that they wanted to date each other without me, so they could figure out if they even wanted to work on a long-term relationship. I feel like they are past the dating phase and are now working on the relationship. With that being said, I think the triad relationship can run parallel to the interconnected separate relationships within our triad. But like I said in previous posts, if I bring this up, then I'm branded as impatient.

I really don't know what to do at this point.

This "keeping score" thing is disturbing, all the more because in the past I have done it.

You have to let each of the four relationships in this group (you and your wife, your wife and Nikki, you and Nikki, and the three of you) develop as they need to. You have to stop second-guessing the others. And you have to establish the dynamic that if someone is uncomfortable with something, they will tell you, and then the three of you can work to resolve whatever is disturbing. For example: "It makes me uncomfortable when I see you two French kiss" doesn't necessarily mean you stop French kissing, but you do it in private.

It's too easy to get into a dance of doing what you think others want you to do, and crippling yourself and your relationships in the process. If you're not sure about something, then get into the habit of asking.

 

[CielDuMatin]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "keeping score."

Sorry, I didn't explain.

"Okay, I held her hand, that means I now have to hold her hand. I don't feel comfortable kissing her today, so I can't kiss her today," that sort of thing. In my opinion, the relationships are independent and shouldn't be compared.

Both Nikki and Wifey are very passive, so their relationship is progressing really slowly. Meanwhile, I am waiting around for the grand invite!

The "grand invite" to what? Join their relationship? I would suggest that there is another way of looking at this-- that you will never join "their" relationship, because it is theirs. Let it go at the pace it will, because it should not affect you. If it does affect you, then you need to work out why.

I am very forward, aggressive, and outspoken, so I see opportunities where progression can happen in their relationship, and it frustrates me to see them not taking them.

So it frustrates you that you can't influence or control their relationship and dictate the pace of it.

This in turn only makes me desire Nikki more, and feel resentment toward Wifey.

So you have set things up so that Nikki's relationship with Wifey limits or shapes your relationship with Nikki. It's not surprising that this causes you tension. This is something that you need to examine, the three of you. Why does this muzzle have to be on? What purpose does it serve?

I understood that they wanted to date each other without me so they could figure out if they even wanted to work on a long-term relationship. I feel like they are past the dating phase and are now working on the relationship.

Bluntly, it doesn't matter what phase you think they are in. They are in whatever phase they think they are in.

With that being said, I think the triad relationship can run parallel to the interconnected separate relationships within our triad. But if I bring this up, then I'm branded as impatient.

Well, the triad's dynamic is definitely affected by the dyads' relationships. That's unavoidable. Maybe it's not even destined to be. Maybe it will be a triad in the sense that you each have your dyad relationships, and work as friends as three (aka a V). That could be perfectly viable.

I really don't know what to do at this point.

Well, it feels a bit like you are trying to force this to be something that it isn't (at least isn't yet). You have your ideal of where you want this to be, and are working towards your goal without regard for how the other two really feel. (If it feels like I am throwing stones here, it's because I did exactly the same thing in my first V/triad. It ended with a load of resentment from everyone.)

You need to relax. You need to get to the point where you and Nikki can have your relationship and work on that, and you can put energy into working with Wifey on that relationship, too.

Then, work on the three of you being good friends. Do vanilla stuff together. Don't push. Go at a speed where all are comfortable. It sounds like you aren't willing to do that, or are getting frustrated doing that. That is something you need to work on, I think.

Also, try to get rid of the idea of how this needs to be as a configuration, and let it be whatever it will be. Try to stop forcing it into your ideal.

If this sounds blunt, please forgive me. I kind of wish I had someone telling me this stuff years ago.

 

[polytriad]

Sorry - I didn't explain.

"OK, I held her hand, that means I now have to hold HER hand. I don't feel comfortable kissing her today, so I can't kiss HER today." that sort of thing. In my opinion the relationships are independant and shouldn't be compared.

Oh I was saying that I was doing this subconsciously I had no idea I was doing this until I knew I was doing it...

The "grand invite" to what? Join their relationship? I would suggest that there is another way of looking at this - that you will never join "their" relationship, because that is theirs - let it go at the pace it will, because it should affect you. If it DOES affect you then you need to work out why.

The grand invite is when Wifey is ready to be in a triad (all of us together). I am not romantically involved with Nikki at this point. I'm waiting until they're ready.

So it frustrates you that you can't influence or control their relationship and dictate the pace of it.

No, that doesn't frustrate me. I don't want control; I think all of us should have a stake in the pace or relationship. What frustrates me is that I feel like their efforts in their pace does not factor in the fact that I am waiting.

You have set things up so that Nikki's relationship with Wifey limits or shapes your relationship with Nikki. It's not surprising that this causes you tension. This is something that you need to examine, the three of you. Why does this muzzle have to be on? What purpose does it serve?

It was never intended for their relationship to shape the relationship I have with Nikki. It was supposed to be short term to us all being together. That was the consensus. Once they decided that they wanted to be in a relationship with one another, the triad was supposed to begin. So the purpose has already been served, yet they continue.

Oh, and FYI, Wifey would want me to be in a relationship without her being involved. She couldn't wear my shoes.

Bluntly, it doesn't matter what phase you think they are in. They are in whatever phase they think they are in.

I wouldn't be concerned about what phase they are in, but, as it stands, the phase they're in determines when my romantic relationship can begin with Nikki.

A triad dynamic is definitely affected by the three dyad relationships. That's unavoidable. Maybe it's not destined to be. Maybe it will be a triad in the sense that you each have your individual pair relationships, and work as friends as a three.

It feels a bit like you are trying to force this to be something that it isn't (at least yet). You have your ideal of where you want this to be. You are working towards this goal without regard for how the other two really feel.

You need to relax, to get to the point where you and Nikki can have your relationship, and work on that, and you can put energy into working with Wifey on yours, too. Work on the three of you being good friends. Go at the speed that all are comfortable. It sounds like you aren't willing to do that, or are getting frustrated doing that. That is something you need to work on, I think.

Try to get rid of the idea of how this needs to be as a configuration. Let it be whatever it will be. Try to stop forcing it into your ideal.

If this sounds blunt, please forgive me...

All in all, thank you for the tough love. I just don't know if I can deal, especially if I don't understand why they are going down the path of a V when we'd agreed to be working on a triad.