The story of Spork.
- Thread starter Spork
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Reverie
Active member
If it helps any, I always try to take the emotionally sensitive time of my cycle (the pms week) as a gift. Kind of a barometre. All issues surface, every nagging little bit of inconvenience in my life and relationships, that I would otherwise ignore as "not important enough, got stuff to do", and I can have a look at them. My "I would like to" which is often so hard to define shows itself more clearly. There's usually a leading theme, so that I can say "oh, I've been jealous here, I didn't realize it's important", or "oh, I really would like to perform better at work, let's focus on that". And you know what's even better? The week or two immediately after it, the most empowered time of my cycle, I've actually got the energy to take action on my issues. So, having a cycle can be a great tool
This is EXACTLY how I think about it, and I have said as much to Rider when I've been particularly struggling during that time: that I welcome the things that I become overemotional about because the rest of the time I can be too analytical and not pay much attention to little prickles of negative emotion, and my PMS time tells me what I need to pay attention to and work on. It's like a growth cycle as well as a menstrual cycle!
Spork
Active member
Alright you guys, I've got a situation and I need to think and weigh and ponder...advice is welcome, because I'm going to crunch the shit out of this before I have to give an answer on it. And I have time to think about it.
I don't remember if I told you all, but my ex has this woman in his life that he knew from ages ago before he and I met. I'm gonna call her "Song" (nicknames make things lots easier.) He was her knight in shining tinfoil, beat up guys who wronged her, loved her deeply and unconditionally but kept himself "just a friend" even when she might have been amenable to more.
Then he did not talk to her for like 20 years, and then last year right before our big blowup, he reconnected with her. I actually felt maybe that was a sign it might be safe to end our marriage, or say/do things that pushed the risk of it ending, because she was once again in his life. I didn't want to see him alone as he is now, because he's pretty hopeless on his own.
But she has been with a man (not married but mono and committed) for like 20 years or so. She is sometimes happy, sometimes not, but more or less solid with this dude. My ex has been trying to glom onto her emotionally for the last year and change...at one point last year he drove, spur of the moment and unannounced, up there (Colorado to Oregon) to see her. He left and came home the very next morning.
Now, he is talking about...planning...going up there to live. Get an apartment somewhere near and "be a part of her life" even if he can't be WITH her. In fact, he is hoping the other guy will eventually spook off and disappear or something so he CAN be with her. But she is like, "I love you, of course, I'm your best friend, and you can come stay, I'd love to see you more often." He is latching onto her as his narcissistic supply, or his reason to live, or what the heck ever. She does not know. And I have no communication to her, she has hostile feelings towards me for "breaking his heart." The whole thing is STUPID. And I guarantee it will go horribly sideways.
But the manner in which this affects me is...
He realizes that if the only reason his sons aren't enjoying the home we bought for them is that they'd rather live with me, he's actually content to let us live in the house so long as ultimately he can retain ownership of it. In fact I'm fairly agreeable to him having ownership, because that house...it's a big, nice house in a nice suburb, but it's way too..."normal"...to "white picket fence" for my taste. I don't love it. And I don't want the burden of having to worry about it and have to sell it or whatever one day. I'm happy, if he can get my name off the loan, to let him have it.
And yet sure, I've been a little tweaked about me and the boys cramming into a little apartment, even though I LOVE my apartment. It isn't much space for three of us and a cat.
He wants to go to Oregon and "rent" me the house (assuming my name can get refi'ed off the paper)...for cheap. We are talking a house worth about $1200-1400 in rent, for about $800, just so that the kids can live there until they're grown.
Points I've clarified: He won't take issue with any of my lovers or friends coming over, I am a tenant, and that is that. Affirmed he can abide by this. And we would have a lease, and he wouldn't be able to come running back and demand to live in the house during the term he has leased it to me.
I told him I'd probably seek a roommate, maybe someone I'm in a relationship with and maybe not...and he understood and said that he wanted a revised lease with their name on it if so, because he wanted official record of anyone living there. No squatters. Kind of funny given how he's let people of sketchy character just move on in, but I'm cool with this.
Thing is... There are so many pros and cons.
Ninja really wants to go to school down there. If I do NOT rent the house, Old Wolf is talking about renting it to someone and leaving anyways...so what would happen with Ninja in that instance? I don't know. I don't want to switch his school, particularly.
Q has expressed that he wouldn't mind going back to the school down there, but I've got his hopes up about the new high school up where we're at.
That house is a LOT of work. The utilities cost more. The yard is huge. It's hard to keep up with the cleaning.
But I'd be closer to some of our old family friends and I like that thought, I miss them. And I'd have use of some more of my stuff, and I'd be able to dispense with the storage unit. It would be probably an overall savings. And a lot more space. And...this I like...I would have the space to entertain large groups. I could invite a lot of friends over. Do BBQ's. I can't do that so easily at the apartment.
But...broken dreams and bad memories... I just don't know. Part of me had hoped for this, but now that it's a possibility perhaps, I'm not sure if I want it.
Thoughts anyone?
I don't remember if I told you all, but my ex has this woman in his life that he knew from ages ago before he and I met. I'm gonna call her "Song" (nicknames make things lots easier.) He was her knight in shining tinfoil, beat up guys who wronged her, loved her deeply and unconditionally but kept himself "just a friend" even when she might have been amenable to more.
Then he did not talk to her for like 20 years, and then last year right before our big blowup, he reconnected with her. I actually felt maybe that was a sign it might be safe to end our marriage, or say/do things that pushed the risk of it ending, because she was once again in his life. I didn't want to see him alone as he is now, because he's pretty hopeless on his own.
But she has been with a man (not married but mono and committed) for like 20 years or so. She is sometimes happy, sometimes not, but more or less solid with this dude. My ex has been trying to glom onto her emotionally for the last year and change...at one point last year he drove, spur of the moment and unannounced, up there (Colorado to Oregon) to see her. He left and came home the very next morning.
Now, he is talking about...planning...going up there to live. Get an apartment somewhere near and "be a part of her life" even if he can't be WITH her. In fact, he is hoping the other guy will eventually spook off and disappear or something so he CAN be with her. But she is like, "I love you, of course, I'm your best friend, and you can come stay, I'd love to see you more often." He is latching onto her as his narcissistic supply, or his reason to live, or what the heck ever. She does not know. And I have no communication to her, she has hostile feelings towards me for "breaking his heart." The whole thing is STUPID. And I guarantee it will go horribly sideways.
But the manner in which this affects me is...
He realizes that if the only reason his sons aren't enjoying the home we bought for them is that they'd rather live with me, he's actually content to let us live in the house so long as ultimately he can retain ownership of it. In fact I'm fairly agreeable to him having ownership, because that house...it's a big, nice house in a nice suburb, but it's way too..."normal"...to "white picket fence" for my taste. I don't love it. And I don't want the burden of having to worry about it and have to sell it or whatever one day. I'm happy, if he can get my name off the loan, to let him have it.
And yet sure, I've been a little tweaked about me and the boys cramming into a little apartment, even though I LOVE my apartment. It isn't much space for three of us and a cat.
He wants to go to Oregon and "rent" me the house (assuming my name can get refi'ed off the paper)...for cheap. We are talking a house worth about $1200-1400 in rent, for about $800, just so that the kids can live there until they're grown.
Points I've clarified: He won't take issue with any of my lovers or friends coming over, I am a tenant, and that is that. Affirmed he can abide by this. And we would have a lease, and he wouldn't be able to come running back and demand to live in the house during the term he has leased it to me.
I told him I'd probably seek a roommate, maybe someone I'm in a relationship with and maybe not...and he understood and said that he wanted a revised lease with their name on it if so, because he wanted official record of anyone living there. No squatters. Kind of funny given how he's let people of sketchy character just move on in, but I'm cool with this.
Thing is... There are so many pros and cons.
Ninja really wants to go to school down there. If I do NOT rent the house, Old Wolf is talking about renting it to someone and leaving anyways...so what would happen with Ninja in that instance? I don't know. I don't want to switch his school, particularly.
Q has expressed that he wouldn't mind going back to the school down there, but I've got his hopes up about the new high school up where we're at.
That house is a LOT of work. The utilities cost more. The yard is huge. It's hard to keep up with the cleaning.
But I'd be closer to some of our old family friends and I like that thought, I miss them. And I'd have use of some more of my stuff, and I'd be able to dispense with the storage unit. It would be probably an overall savings. And a lot more space. And...this I like...I would have the space to entertain large groups. I could invite a lot of friends over. Do BBQ's. I can't do that so easily at the apartment.
But...broken dreams and bad memories... I just don't know. Part of me had hoped for this, but now that it's a possibility perhaps, I'm not sure if I want it.
Thoughts anyone?
Reverie
Active member
Seconded. Though, I don't have kids and have never owned a house, so grain of salt.
Hannahfluke
Member
I understand why you'd consider the house, but I'm with Reverie and Leetah, that I wouldn't want to be dependent on this man for anything, let alone the roof over my head, regardless of what type of legal papers you draw up in terms of the lease. The lease only protects you if the person you're dealing with is basically honest and law abiding. I'm not sure your ex fits into either of those categories. And regardless of the fact that he's telling you that it's only so the boys will be able to have a place to live, I wouldn't be surprised if he's actually offering it so that if things don't work out in Oregon with this woman, he feels like it will mean he has a foot in the door towards getting back with you because, after all, look at this wonderful thing he did for you and the boys, doesn’t that warrant reconsideration.
I can imagine it would be really hard to have that many people and animals in a small space, but I don't think that this is a workable solution to the issue. Maybe you can find a different house to rent with roommates to make up the difference in price. If you could do that, it would be getting your list of pros without any of the cons.
I can imagine it would be really hard to have that many people and animals in a small space, but I don't think that this is a workable solution to the issue. Maybe you can find a different house to rent with roommates to make up the difference in price. If you could do that, it would be getting your list of pros without any of the cons.
PinkPig
Well-known member
I agree with the others. Him having access to your living space is the biggest reason not to, imho. Not to mention all the other reasons listed. And I wouldn't discount the memories, either. I bought my ex out and kept our old house. Several years on and I wish the kids and I had a new home, one without all the memories... a fresh start.
Spork
Active member
Thanks, everyone!
Very good points.
And...long story short, I agree with you all.
There are a thousand reasons I don't want Old Wolf to have access to whatever home I'm living in. Or justification to enter it.
I do not HAVE to have a bigger living space. It's not as cramped as it could be, in the apartment, it's not the best permanent situation but we can cope. And the idea is still for Ninja to move and live with his Dad and go to school at his old school, in about a month.
What is the worst case scenario if I don't move back into the house?
Stay in the apartment...money is kind of a struggle...Ninja comes back to live with me maybe and finishes high school in a school he doesn't want to go to, but it's still a good school. Next spring he moves out on his own anyhow.
Worst case scenario in the house is that Old Wolf has access to it, that he imposes himself upon me, upon the kids, possibly, and most dangerously, upon any of my loves who may wind up visiting or living with me one day...yeah, no. It's a bad idea.
The rental market here...prices are pretty high, and that's why his offer was so tempting. But it's not worth it.
Very good points.
And...long story short, I agree with you all.
There are a thousand reasons I don't want Old Wolf to have access to whatever home I'm living in. Or justification to enter it.
I do not HAVE to have a bigger living space. It's not as cramped as it could be, in the apartment, it's not the best permanent situation but we can cope. And the idea is still for Ninja to move and live with his Dad and go to school at his old school, in about a month.
What is the worst case scenario if I don't move back into the house?
Stay in the apartment...money is kind of a struggle...Ninja comes back to live with me maybe and finishes high school in a school he doesn't want to go to, but it's still a good school. Next spring he moves out on his own anyhow.
Worst case scenario in the house is that Old Wolf has access to it, that he imposes himself upon me, upon the kids, possibly, and most dangerously, upon any of my loves who may wind up visiting or living with me one day...yeah, no. It's a bad idea.
The rental market here...prices are pretty high, and that's why his offer was so tempting. But it's not worth it.
PinkPig
Well-known member
If Old Wolf doesn't end up leaving, can Ninja just use his address for school purposes and commute from the apartment? That's what many parents did in my district before the school board opened up the district (now students can attend any school...only for Jr High & High school kids, they have to sit out a year of sports at the new school to prevent schools from recruiting athletes.)
Spork
Active member
There will be another post with a recap of the weekend, as usual I did a ton of fun stuff... But first I need to throw down with some process, because there is change in the air and I don't know how to feel about it.
We have had a situation come up with Thunder, where there was a miscommunication between Zen and I about lodgings. He thought I'd booked my own room, and he'd be able to cost-share and get in on it. In fact, people in the quad paid for a room with two beds and it was the understanding that us 4 (me, Fire, Hefe, Analyst) would be in it, and I thought Zen had his own room arrangement and I'd split my time between them. Money is honestly so tight for me right now, if left to my own devices I would not be going. But Analyst paid for my ticket, and the quad (Fire, possibly with Analyst helping with $$) booked a room, and that was that. Now there is Zen, who assumed he had lodgings figured out (with me) and uh...no... Crap. With his injury and his pay being interrupted some, booking his own room and paying for it by himself would be prohibitive.
But Analyst has been busy working on his property out in the country, and last I spoke to him, he was saying he probably wouldn't go to Thunder, because he needs to the time to get work done and get the place on the market...if he waits too long, the odds of getting it sold before having to pay for another winter of it will diminish...and he's closing on the new place he's buying soon. He does not want to be stuck with two properties, until next year. He's got damn good cause to put his energy into practical things and skip the convention.
Frankly, I feel that he doesn't much enjoy going to events where his girls aren't spending time actively WITH HIM...he doesn't want to go out only to watch me and/or Fire off socializing with other people, or to events where it's loud and we can't talk. He likes to be at home watching a movie, or doing dinner together. Thunder...jam packed with distracting activity and social opportunity...isn't really the kind of thing he's expressed a tremendous interest in.
So I wasn't arguing. Although he's paid for his ticket and mine, and it wouldn't surprise me if he'd chipped in on the hotel room, he stands to lose out a great deal more financially if he has delays in dealing with the property stuff.
I felt that IF he is firm on not going, then perhaps Zen and I could occupy that second bed. Zen would be happy to contribute money to the cost of the room. This seemed like a possible solution.
I brought it up to Fire and she was NOT thrilled with the idea. She was hoping Analyst would still make it for at least part of the weekend I think. So...pondering what to do here...I mentioned I might have to find a way to go in partial on the cost of a room with Zen.
And that was not a happy solution for her, either. Because she said that Analyst probably wouldn't go, even if he'd otherwise planned to, if I wasn't there in the room with the quad.
There seems to be no way for me to be good to everyone in this situation. I already knew I'd be trying to divide my time with my lovers...but it seems that both the quad, and Zen, expected that I'd be mostly with them, and I'm being pulled in different directions by what people assumed was going on.
And...Fire said words I've dreaded hearing ever since I started being poly. That I might have to figure out my priorities. That I might have to choose. I adore her, I find her dazzlingly beautiful inside and out, and even this...the words that gave me a sinking feeling...even that doesn't diminish it one bit. But she and Hefe have become close with a couple of others in the community and there seem to be relationships gelling there. I don't like feeling cornered, being asked to choose. Especially when she knows how I feel about Zen.
The one thing that sucks the most about all of this, is Analyst. He's overhauling his life with a goal in mind of living in town and having loads of time with his two girlfriends. But Fire and Hefe now have this other couple...and I personally feel that their energy might be a better fit overall for them. I'm feelsy over Zen. And frankly...*sigh*... Analyst's behavior for months is confusing. Like...I'm not sure we're enough on the same page to sustain a relationship. I'm all about community, Zen as a good ideal of how a partner behaves with Spork and her extrovert tendencies, he can be near and part of conversations with me and others, he won't go awkwardly sit alone because I'm mingling...he knows he's welcome in my space or he can also mingle on his own. Analyst is uncomfortable, disengaged, doesn't want me checking in to maintain him, nor does he want to get social either by my side or on his own. Seems he would rather not be there.
And, I went clear out to the boonies to see him on occasion...it's not something I can often do, because the roads he lives on actually do harm to my vehicle if I attempt them too often. And it used to be, he'd come into town and stay at Fire & Hefe's and we'd sleep together in their guest room. And as I've said, sex between us was rarely something that either of us was putting a ton of effort into. It too often it seemed like an afterthought. Like oh, yeah, we were supposed to knock boots, right? Here ya go, here's a quickie. Maybe next time we'll get all freaky. Love you, bye! I would think that with the scarcity of opportunities we had, he'd want to take full advantage of them when they arose...but for whatever reasons that has rarely been the case.
And you know, all of that, I could deal with. But there's one issue I'm not sure I can.
We can't seem to have a serious conversation about certain things, without Analyst getting prickly and upset. And at the first hint that something feels like conflict, I flip to "avoidance" mode. I cannot speak my insights to him, about aspects of his personality and what I think he wants or needs, he gets very "I don't want to talk about it. This is how I am. Let me be me and quit bringing it up." And that hint of hostility is enough to make me retreat into a shell and put up my walls.
And I'll say this, though my intent is not to directly compare and contrast two human beings, but rather what is comfortable to me, versus what is not comfortable to me... Zen and I have had conversations about things that were hard for him to talk about, uncomfortable topics for him, where he took a deep breath, swallowed his pride, and put in the effort to share with me. Trustingly. It's the difference between feeling rebuffed, both sexually and emotionally if not intellectually (Analyst) and feeling accepted, embraced, and connected on multiple levels (Zen.)
I don't feel I was even really doing it for Fire, as far as being a female lover was concerned. I feel she's got something better going on now. And seeing what that looks like, I feel equal parts "I wish I could have been that for you" and relief and peace and happiness that she has this. I am not jealous. I have logically considered a few things that I recognized as "I could feel jealous about this"...but I just don't.
If anything, I feel like I let Fire down, I wasn't as fun as what was printed on the package, of what she bought into in the first place. I'm glad she's found people who are. And Hefe seems reasonably content to explore what opportunities are available to him; right now the other woman is one of those.
I feel like the one who will be angry and hurt will be Analyst and he's got every right to be. Things are happening that aren't within his control. He's trapped out in the country, and I've been having doubts for a while. But I can't discuss them with him, because he gets upset, and I'm not willing to have a fight with him. And frankly, some of it comes right down to issues of compatibility. I don't like feeling as though communication channels aren't open, like loving concern will be met with defensive anger.
And then...*sigh*...Zen. A woman flirted with him at the party. He is interested in having other play partners, but says not other lovers as he feels good with what he has with me. I trust him. And then I looked at her fetlife profile. She is gorgeous. She's everything he likes in a body shape only way more perfect than me. And she is mono as all get out. Like "do not even bring this poly shit to my doorstep" mono.
Zen is pretty mono, too.
And Zen and I started as play partners, too.
If it comes to competing, I can't. She is me minus all of my flaws, basically. Under the circumstances, I can only be happy for Zen if he gets a chance to explore, to his heart's desire, however far and deep that may be, with a gorgeous woman. I love him. Losing him would break my damn heart. I'd cry.
Under the circumstances, I might just end up with no one at all.
But I was thinking about it this morning...granted, I'm not in one of those terrible hormonal freakout times so I'm a lot more calm about life in general...and a little distanced from my own feelings. But I realized, I don't have much faith in forever. I've got to enjoy today, who knows what tomorrow might look like? There is always life after a breakup even when it hurts, for me. There has to be. I'd pick myself up, dust myself off, and carry on, because what the hell else do you do? Realistically, perhaps she's no threat to me...she is quite young, and primal, and I don't know if she and Zen would connect well enough to be lovers or a relationship. But damned if I'd hold it against him if he decided to try. She is lovely.
But you know...Zen had to trust me, with some of the things he said last week. I know some of that was not easy. And he knows my tendency to overshare. Talking that way, was an act of trust. I'm trying to be worthy of it. And part of that is trusting him, too. So I will.
We have had a situation come up with Thunder, where there was a miscommunication between Zen and I about lodgings. He thought I'd booked my own room, and he'd be able to cost-share and get in on it. In fact, people in the quad paid for a room with two beds and it was the understanding that us 4 (me, Fire, Hefe, Analyst) would be in it, and I thought Zen had his own room arrangement and I'd split my time between them. Money is honestly so tight for me right now, if left to my own devices I would not be going. But Analyst paid for my ticket, and the quad (Fire, possibly with Analyst helping with $$) booked a room, and that was that. Now there is Zen, who assumed he had lodgings figured out (with me) and uh...no... Crap. With his injury and his pay being interrupted some, booking his own room and paying for it by himself would be prohibitive.
But Analyst has been busy working on his property out in the country, and last I spoke to him, he was saying he probably wouldn't go to Thunder, because he needs to the time to get work done and get the place on the market...if he waits too long, the odds of getting it sold before having to pay for another winter of it will diminish...and he's closing on the new place he's buying soon. He does not want to be stuck with two properties, until next year. He's got damn good cause to put his energy into practical things and skip the convention.
Frankly, I feel that he doesn't much enjoy going to events where his girls aren't spending time actively WITH HIM...he doesn't want to go out only to watch me and/or Fire off socializing with other people, or to events where it's loud and we can't talk. He likes to be at home watching a movie, or doing dinner together. Thunder...jam packed with distracting activity and social opportunity...isn't really the kind of thing he's expressed a tremendous interest in.
So I wasn't arguing. Although he's paid for his ticket and mine, and it wouldn't surprise me if he'd chipped in on the hotel room, he stands to lose out a great deal more financially if he has delays in dealing with the property stuff.
I felt that IF he is firm on not going, then perhaps Zen and I could occupy that second bed. Zen would be happy to contribute money to the cost of the room. This seemed like a possible solution.
I brought it up to Fire and she was NOT thrilled with the idea. She was hoping Analyst would still make it for at least part of the weekend I think. So...pondering what to do here...I mentioned I might have to find a way to go in partial on the cost of a room with Zen.
And that was not a happy solution for her, either. Because she said that Analyst probably wouldn't go, even if he'd otherwise planned to, if I wasn't there in the room with the quad.
There seems to be no way for me to be good to everyone in this situation. I already knew I'd be trying to divide my time with my lovers...but it seems that both the quad, and Zen, expected that I'd be mostly with them, and I'm being pulled in different directions by what people assumed was going on.
And...Fire said words I've dreaded hearing ever since I started being poly. That I might have to figure out my priorities. That I might have to choose. I adore her, I find her dazzlingly beautiful inside and out, and even this...the words that gave me a sinking feeling...even that doesn't diminish it one bit. But she and Hefe have become close with a couple of others in the community and there seem to be relationships gelling there. I don't like feeling cornered, being asked to choose. Especially when she knows how I feel about Zen.
The one thing that sucks the most about all of this, is Analyst. He's overhauling his life with a goal in mind of living in town and having loads of time with his two girlfriends. But Fire and Hefe now have this other couple...and I personally feel that their energy might be a better fit overall for them. I'm feelsy over Zen. And frankly...*sigh*... Analyst's behavior for months is confusing. Like...I'm not sure we're enough on the same page to sustain a relationship. I'm all about community, Zen as a good ideal of how a partner behaves with Spork and her extrovert tendencies, he can be near and part of conversations with me and others, he won't go awkwardly sit alone because I'm mingling...he knows he's welcome in my space or he can also mingle on his own. Analyst is uncomfortable, disengaged, doesn't want me checking in to maintain him, nor does he want to get social either by my side or on his own. Seems he would rather not be there.
And, I went clear out to the boonies to see him on occasion...it's not something I can often do, because the roads he lives on actually do harm to my vehicle if I attempt them too often. And it used to be, he'd come into town and stay at Fire & Hefe's and we'd sleep together in their guest room. And as I've said, sex between us was rarely something that either of us was putting a ton of effort into. It too often it seemed like an afterthought. Like oh, yeah, we were supposed to knock boots, right? Here ya go, here's a quickie. Maybe next time we'll get all freaky. Love you, bye! I would think that with the scarcity of opportunities we had, he'd want to take full advantage of them when they arose...but for whatever reasons that has rarely been the case.
And you know, all of that, I could deal with. But there's one issue I'm not sure I can.
We can't seem to have a serious conversation about certain things, without Analyst getting prickly and upset. And at the first hint that something feels like conflict, I flip to "avoidance" mode. I cannot speak my insights to him, about aspects of his personality and what I think he wants or needs, he gets very "I don't want to talk about it. This is how I am. Let me be me and quit bringing it up." And that hint of hostility is enough to make me retreat into a shell and put up my walls.
And I'll say this, though my intent is not to directly compare and contrast two human beings, but rather what is comfortable to me, versus what is not comfortable to me... Zen and I have had conversations about things that were hard for him to talk about, uncomfortable topics for him, where he took a deep breath, swallowed his pride, and put in the effort to share with me. Trustingly. It's the difference between feeling rebuffed, both sexually and emotionally if not intellectually (Analyst) and feeling accepted, embraced, and connected on multiple levels (Zen.)
I don't feel I was even really doing it for Fire, as far as being a female lover was concerned. I feel she's got something better going on now. And seeing what that looks like, I feel equal parts "I wish I could have been that for you" and relief and peace and happiness that she has this. I am not jealous. I have logically considered a few things that I recognized as "I could feel jealous about this"...but I just don't.
If anything, I feel like I let Fire down, I wasn't as fun as what was printed on the package, of what she bought into in the first place. I'm glad she's found people who are. And Hefe seems reasonably content to explore what opportunities are available to him; right now the other woman is one of those.
I feel like the one who will be angry and hurt will be Analyst and he's got every right to be. Things are happening that aren't within his control. He's trapped out in the country, and I've been having doubts for a while. But I can't discuss them with him, because he gets upset, and I'm not willing to have a fight with him. And frankly, some of it comes right down to issues of compatibility. I don't like feeling as though communication channels aren't open, like loving concern will be met with defensive anger.
And then...*sigh*...Zen. A woman flirted with him at the party. He is interested in having other play partners, but says not other lovers as he feels good with what he has with me. I trust him. And then I looked at her fetlife profile. She is gorgeous. She's everything he likes in a body shape only way more perfect than me. And she is mono as all get out. Like "do not even bring this poly shit to my doorstep" mono.
Zen is pretty mono, too.
And Zen and I started as play partners, too.
If it comes to competing, I can't. She is me minus all of my flaws, basically. Under the circumstances, I can only be happy for Zen if he gets a chance to explore, to his heart's desire, however far and deep that may be, with a gorgeous woman. I love him. Losing him would break my damn heart. I'd cry.
Under the circumstances, I might just end up with no one at all.
But I was thinking about it this morning...granted, I'm not in one of those terrible hormonal freakout times so I'm a lot more calm about life in general...and a little distanced from my own feelings. But I realized, I don't have much faith in forever. I've got to enjoy today, who knows what tomorrow might look like? There is always life after a breakup even when it hurts, for me. There has to be. I'd pick myself up, dust myself off, and carry on, because what the hell else do you do? Realistically, perhaps she's no threat to me...she is quite young, and primal, and I don't know if she and Zen would connect well enough to be lovers or a relationship. But damned if I'd hold it against him if he decided to try. She is lovely.
But you know...Zen had to trust me, with some of the things he said last week. I know some of that was not easy. And he knows my tendency to overshare. Talking that way, was an act of trust. I'm trying to be worthy of it. And part of that is trusting him, too. So I will.
Spork
Active member
No, because I cannot transport him, and he hasn't bothered to get his dang drivers license. (Lazy kid.)
Spork
Active member
Weekend recap
So yeah I posted a bunch of stuff already, but I'll try not to go full on "wall of text" with this part...
Friday night: Fun with Zen at his place, dinner at Biaggi's (omg best pizza EVER. It had alfredo sauce and chicken and bacon. YUM.)
Saturday: Erotic Hypnosis class at Fire & Hefe's, which was fun even though Hypnosis isn't really my bag. The couple that ran the thing were cool people, there was a decent turnout. They talked about negotiation, about induction, about things that can go right and wrong, about waking the subject. We practiced on each other, and I was able to partner with our dear and loved friend, Reecy. She definitely got me into the nice muzzy headspace that I love, though I don't feel that there were any suggestions behaviorally going on that I could not have resisted. It's that thing, they say that "You might FEEL like you're just playing along...but you're REALLY under..." Yeah but what if at least partially you ARE just playing along. I've never felt that anyone had a great deal of control over me in a hypnosis situation. And then I was supposed to hypnotize Reecy, but I got really awkward and one of the people running the class saved my bacon by doing the voice part and just letting me supply some nice touch.
Then Fire and I had an awkward conversation about Thunder and about other topics (see prior post) and then we had the masquerade ball at Voodoo in tribute to the Marquis de Sade. That party was great. Very debaucherous. Lots of sex and kink and such going on. I wore a beautiful gown, and Zen looked dashing and sexy to me in his suit and mask. Hefe was awesome in his kilt and it was the subject of much amusement every time he got aroused, and Fire...well seriously now, she's stunning any time. But I got to see her engaged in more play than usual, which was fun. Fancy food, fancy music, LED candles everywhere, and for a change, alcohol (which was BYOB and it was a members' only party...which allowed for that unusual accommodation.) I didn't drink, but most others did.
Sunday morning I managed to get up early enough to get myself downtown for my very first Pride Parade. I marched with the leather and kink group that included the Voodoo folks. That was super fun, as we had our friend who is really into pony play (NOT a brony, but a dude who dresses in black and red horse tack and pretends to actually be a horse)...when I first met him, I was very "not my kink" about this...but he's frankly so full of JOY when he's all kitted up and prancing around, you can't resist him. I mean you'd have to just hate fun and happiness, to keep on being weird about him after knowing him for a bit. He's great. And our Aussie friend was working the crowd running around the group with a big flag and running up to people and high-fiving them.
There were no protesters, that I could see, anywhere. So much for Colorado Springs being a "fundamental, conservative town." It was great. At one point, feeling that I was standing with dear friends who are socially vulnerable in our world, and seeing the support and the love from the crowds, I actually got kind of teary eyed. I smiled and waved anyways.
It was just a great time with great people, even if temps were in the 90's.
Then last night I finally met a man who's been Zen's friend for over 20 years. We had dinner, talked a while. Then Zen and I went back to my place and watched a movie called "Brazil" (the extended original version) which he was stunned to find I'd never seen. It is a weird film. I liked it.
So yeah I posted a bunch of stuff already, but I'll try not to go full on "wall of text" with this part...
Friday night: Fun with Zen at his place, dinner at Biaggi's (omg best pizza EVER. It had alfredo sauce and chicken and bacon. YUM.)
Saturday: Erotic Hypnosis class at Fire & Hefe's, which was fun even though Hypnosis isn't really my bag. The couple that ran the thing were cool people, there was a decent turnout. They talked about negotiation, about induction, about things that can go right and wrong, about waking the subject. We practiced on each other, and I was able to partner with our dear and loved friend, Reecy. She definitely got me into the nice muzzy headspace that I love, though I don't feel that there were any suggestions behaviorally going on that I could not have resisted. It's that thing, they say that "You might FEEL like you're just playing along...but you're REALLY under..." Yeah but what if at least partially you ARE just playing along. I've never felt that anyone had a great deal of control over me in a hypnosis situation. And then I was supposed to hypnotize Reecy, but I got really awkward and one of the people running the class saved my bacon by doing the voice part and just letting me supply some nice touch.
Then Fire and I had an awkward conversation about Thunder and about other topics (see prior post) and then we had the masquerade ball at Voodoo in tribute to the Marquis de Sade. That party was great. Very debaucherous. Lots of sex and kink and such going on. I wore a beautiful gown, and Zen looked dashing and sexy to me in his suit and mask. Hefe was awesome in his kilt and it was the subject of much amusement every time he got aroused, and Fire...well seriously now, she's stunning any time. But I got to see her engaged in more play than usual, which was fun. Fancy food, fancy music, LED candles everywhere, and for a change, alcohol (which was BYOB and it was a members' only party...which allowed for that unusual accommodation.) I didn't drink, but most others did.
Sunday morning I managed to get up early enough to get myself downtown for my very first Pride Parade. I marched with the leather and kink group that included the Voodoo folks. That was super fun, as we had our friend who is really into pony play (NOT a brony, but a dude who dresses in black and red horse tack and pretends to actually be a horse)...when I first met him, I was very "not my kink" about this...but he's frankly so full of JOY when he's all kitted up and prancing around, you can't resist him. I mean you'd have to just hate fun and happiness, to keep on being weird about him after knowing him for a bit. He's great. And our Aussie friend was working the crowd running around the group with a big flag and running up to people and high-fiving them.
There were no protesters, that I could see, anywhere. So much for Colorado Springs being a "fundamental, conservative town." It was great. At one point, feeling that I was standing with dear friends who are socially vulnerable in our world, and seeing the support and the love from the crowds, I actually got kind of teary eyed. I smiled and waved anyways.
It was just a great time with great people, even if temps were in the 90's.
Then last night I finally met a man who's been Zen's friend for over 20 years. We had dinner, talked a while. Then Zen and I went back to my place and watched a movie called "Brazil" (the extended original version) which he was stunned to find I'd never seen. It is a weird film. I liked it.
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I think the unfortunately reality, though, is that sometimes you *do* have to choose priorities *for that moment* - I know you're worried about your relationships in general, and so that's how you're hearing that statement, and that may be a realistic thing... but it may be that she just meant "you may have to choose your priorities *for that weekend*.
(Which still sucks, believe me - doing a kink con as a hinge in a V was tricky enough, as was doing it as part of a sort of quad.... doing both at once sounds like it would be nearly impossible to balance.)
(Which still sucks, believe me - doing a kink con as a hinge in a V was tricky enough, as was doing it as part of a sort of quad.... doing both at once sounds like it would be nearly impossible to balance.)
Spork
Active member
I'm not sure.
To be very honest, I think she was already overburdened with hard and hurtful shit (family issues) and this presented as one MORE goddamn thing to worry about. And I think...if I am reading the unspoken correctly, which I often am...that she had to try very hard to keep herself under control to not say anything that she would perceive as mean, or angry, to me, following that conversation. She was upset. We were both getting ready for the party and I think she couldn't wait for me to be the hell out of her house. For more reasons than just this, but this I think was a trigger factor.
The straw that broke the camel's back and then damn near spontaneously combusted the whole business.
And she doesn't want me to see that side of her. Don't think she realizes that while I do avoid and shrink from conflict...I'm a rock, I'll just be sitting there. If she changes her mind later and wants to be ok with me, she doesn't even have to apologize. Again...anyone who is up to 18 years of sustained assholery is welcome to try burning a bridge with me. Good luck. I can absorb an explosion and my true opinion of someone isn't going to be altered by what they say when I've just pissed them off.
I might even deserve it.
What I'm afraid of is that she might be right. I don't know if I can give the people in the quad the mojo they deserve when I'm as deeply involved with Zen as I have become. I didn't plan this. Zen didn't plan this. He had NO desire to cowboy me away from the quad. He said it himself, he feels he's got no right to be overtly jealous because he knew damn well what I was doing when we met. I was upfront about it, and he accepted it. He doesn't want to perpetrate the "dick move" of causing an interference with others who were already part of my life. It goes back to the thing where I don't think you can legislate feelings...sometimes they just happen, and you have no idea exactly when or how or why.
It was one thing when he was just filling a miscellaneous need that didn't live in the heart of any of the quad (my need for a sadist.) They didn't have to like that, but they tolerated it. But now...
I don't know.
All I know is that no matter how it goes, it is not my desire or my intention to be unkind. I don't know what to do, whether to give things time to see if it's some kind of an NRE business that will calm eventually, or...what. I've tried to just not make huge decisions because I believe that making big choices under the influence of strong emotions is generally unwise.
breathemusic
Active member
Do Fire and Hefe always just date other couples? I wonder if that is some of their issue with you venturing outside of the quad. But it would seem a bit hypocritical if they wanted you guys to be some sort of closed quad when it sounds like they've got other romantic stuff developing with another couple.
Either way, I don't like the expectation that one couple has to date another couple. Would you even be able to date Hefe if you weren't dating Fire?
Regardless, I don't think that you or Zen should have to feel like he's "stealing you away." It sounds like even without Zen you might still be drifting away from the others. They haven't exactly been proactive with trying to initiate sexy times and other romance. While it sounds like neither have you, it's certainly not ALL on you!
Either way, I don't like the expectation that one couple has to date another couple. Would you even be able to date Hefe if you weren't dating Fire?
Regardless, I don't think that you or Zen should have to feel like he's "stealing you away." It sounds like even without Zen you might still be drifting away from the others. They haven't exactly been proactive with trying to initiate sexy times and other romance. While it sounds like neither have you, it's certainly not ALL on you!
Spork
Active member
Honestly, I'm not sure I would choose to date Hefe and not Fire. I love Hefe in a way that is often simple and good. I appreciate him. And I love Analyst in a particular way, too. But Fire is the source of most of the SHAZAM! in the quad (and I doubt the guys would disagree with me on that.)
Hefe, as good as he is, feels...almost incomplete without Fire. It makes more sense when I think about them dancing. She brings out a certain...more...in him. Which honestly bodes rather well for them as a married couple, in my opinion. It's one of the cool things about them.
But they don't only date couples. Fire dates other men sometimes, too. And while Hefe isn't really looking to, I don't get the sense he'd pass up a good opportunity if one landed in his lap.
Frankly in the very beginning, I kind of thought that Analyst angled for this the whole time. That he got with me, with the intention of giving Hefe a secondary partner so that he could be free to pursue Fire without Hefe worrying about it too much. But that was before I knew any of them THAT well, and I don't think that was really happening, haven't suspected such a thing in a long time.
GirlFromTexlahoma
New member
It sucks to feel like you have to choose. It sucks more to be told that you have to choose
Is it possible that Fire was just upset at being asked to share the room with Zen? There's a BIG difference between sharing a room with your 3 partners, and sharing one with 2 partners - and your meta. I know I would freak out and get bitchy about that, especially if I felt like saying no meant losing time with someone I loved.
I'm sure there are bigger general concerns about time and energy and sex, but I can see how this really could just be about the specific trip. Especially if Fire spent time and money planning it all, and was excited for it. It just hurts to have your (maybe overly optimistic) hopes dashed. Sometimes people just get their feelings hurt and react... Not "badly", but maybe more strongly than they would have in a not-hurt emotional state.
Just musing that maybe Fire is completely fine with the division of time normally, but lashed out a little bit, out of worry that, "but what about Zen" would become a recurring thing. Not that I've ever done anything like that
Is it possible that Fire was just upset at being asked to share the room with Zen? There's a BIG difference between sharing a room with your 3 partners, and sharing one with 2 partners - and your meta. I know I would freak out and get bitchy about that, especially if I felt like saying no meant losing time with someone I loved.
I'm sure there are bigger general concerns about time and energy and sex, but I can see how this really could just be about the specific trip. Especially if Fire spent time and money planning it all, and was excited for it. It just hurts to have your (maybe overly optimistic) hopes dashed. Sometimes people just get their feelings hurt and react... Not "badly", but maybe more strongly than they would have in a not-hurt emotional state.
Just musing that maybe Fire is completely fine with the division of time normally, but lashed out a little bit, out of worry that, "but what about Zen" would become a recurring thing. Not that I've ever done anything like that
Spork
Active member
It sucks to feel like you have to choose. It sucks more to be told that you have to choose
Is it possible that Fire was just upset at being asked to share the room with Zen? There's a BIG difference between sharing a room with your 3 partners, and sharing one with 2 partners - and your meta. I know I would freak out and get bitchy about that, especially if I felt like saying no meant losing time with someone I loved.
I'm sure there are bigger general concerns about time and energy and sex, but I can see how this really could just be about the specific trip. Especially if Fire spent time and money planning it all, and was excited for it. It just hurts to have your (maybe overly optimistic) hopes dashed. Sometimes people just get their feelings hurt and react... Not "badly", but maybe more strongly than they would have in a not-hurt emotional state.
Just musing that maybe Fire is completely fine with the division of time normally, but lashed out a little bit, out of worry that, "but what about Zen" would become a recurring thing. Not that I've ever done anything like that
What makes this kind of hard for me is that I know I've talked about this before, and I feel like miscommunication has caused problems even though I was fairly clear (I thought)...I know I told Fire that I'd be dividing my time and that Zen would be getting some of it. I thought I was clear to Zen about the room situation. But here we are, less than 2 weeks out, and...I don't know.
And in fact, "what about Zen" moments have been recurring. Starting with parties we'd attend together on Saturday nights where he was also, and I did not completely ignore him but spent some of my time with him and some with Fire or Hefe. I spend my Friday nights with Zen. But after the parties I'd go back usually to Fire and Hefe's house and be with them a while. When I'm with Zen, I am still mindful of my plans with the quad, when I am with the quad, I am still mindful of Zen. But I'm frankly new to polyamory and trying to figure out how to find a good balance has been hard for a while.
Spork
Active member
It sucks to feel like you have to choose. It sucks more to be told that you have to choose
Is it possible that Fire was just upset at being asked to share the room with Zen? There's a BIG difference between sharing a room with your 3 partners, and sharing one with 2 partners - and your meta. I know I would freak out and get bitchy about that, especially if I felt like saying no meant losing time with someone I loved.
I'm sure there are bigger general concerns about time and energy and sex, but I can see how this really could just be about the specific trip. Especially if Fire spent time and money planning it all, and was excited for it. It just hurts to have your (maybe overly optimistic) hopes dashed. Sometimes people just get their feelings hurt and react... Not "badly", but maybe more strongly than they would have in a not-hurt emotional state.
Just musing that maybe Fire is completely fine with the division of time normally, but lashed out a little bit, out of worry that, "but what about Zen" would become a recurring thing. Not that I've ever done anything like that
Texlahoma, you've got it right. Analyst paid for my ticket. Fire paid for my room. Before Analyst got so busy with his house stuff, and it seemed like there was plenty of time, I think there was definitely more of a plan for concentrated quad-time, although I think they were somewhat aware that Zen and I would be spending SOME time together, too.
Now... Fire's other couple has their own stuff going on, Analyst might not even come, and I've got to figure out what's going on with Zen.
I did feel like, given the circumstances (the misunderstanding between he and I, and the fact that Zen has had his life disrupted by his injuries lately) I need to find a way for him to NOT have to pay the full cost on his own room. It's nearly $400. It's a lot. And rooms are almost sold out. So I am hoping this thing with our two other friends works out, there is no relationship or sex mojo with us and them, they are just lovely community friends that we see all the time, and one of them offered to room-share with us. I feel like if I offer them $100, and Zen does, too, then that should make it go over fine.
And that way, if one of the two nights I sleep in the room with the quad, and Zen has a bed to himself in our mutual friends' room...maybe that will all go alright, also.
I would absolutely LOVE to get the lot of us together for a Cards Against Humanity game. But I think we're all going to be either busy doing convention stuff, or tired and crashing, the whole weekend. So I won't have my hopes up for something like that.
I have talked to Fire a bit this morning. She did not in fact mean long term ultimate choice, but rather for this particular weekend...but she does understand my concerns.
Basically the bottom line here as I see it, is:
- Fire & Hefe have a lot going on, and I don't feel as though it would be the end of the world if we were friends...friends who hopefully are comfortable giving massages and back scratches, and hot tubbing naked...but still mostly friends. The kind of friends that are like family. Really it feels that way to me. It's not a consolation prize.
- Analyst is probably NOT going to be happy with this. I do not want to drop the information on him when he's up to his eyeballs in work on his house project, and give him that to deal with...I also don't like waiting until he's moved into town and springing it on him. I tried to call him last night but he did not answer. Maybe he's read my blog, maybe he's talked to Fire, maybe he's upset at me, maybe he was just busy or asleep. I do not know. I care about him, I like him, I love him and appreciate him. But I feel that there are compatibility issues. I don't fully know what he wants, and what I do know of it doesn't feel like something I can offer. Relationship security. Being easy in the knowledge that I'm one of his "two girlfriends" and put on cruise control like that. And I feel like our social needs are not well aligned.
I think he needs a woman who is happy with dating and domesticity, with some in-the-bedroom kink occasionally there to spice it up, and pick up play once in a while...but only at home, and only once in a while. I have a serious need to be an involved part of a big community. My life will always have a cast of characters numbering in the hundreds. And I think he needs someone who can fight with him and then make up...from time to time...and I don't operate that way. Fighting scares me. I go into full retreat, until I become just completely walled off. And that is the biggest factor, I couldn't imagine living with Analyst, because avoidance and resentment would take over. And I think he might like to not live alone one day.
I'm also uncomfortable with the fact that my financial situation sucks. He is driven to acts of generosity, and I cannot repay them. I just can't. He doesn't expect it, and he'd be very defensive to hear me say this, and in fact we've talked about it. He's generous because he can be and he wants to be. And I know he has NO intention of being manipulative with that. But it is the natural flow of things ultimately that if it continues I will worry about him feeling used if I'm not giving him whatever he wants from me, or that I have some obligation on how to be in order to not seem like a using, ungrateful bitch.
It would be different if I were also financially secure, and could afford to be generous in return. I would feel that the scales were not out of balance, then. But this situation makes me feel powerless in a way that bothers me a bit.
- Zen. Where do I start? I'm staying off the escalator until my lease is up, at minimum. But of all the people I know right now, I'd be most comfortable one day escalating (to a point) with Zen. We won't be making babies and we might never get married (separate negotiation, he knows how I feel about that.) But as for living together...I could imagine it. It would probably be easier once my kids were grown. Reasons that I've been able to connect so deeply with him, for one thing, he's the only one who is AVAILABLE enough for it. And I feel secure and safe with him, even if I'm afraid and vulnerable with myself and my own feelings. What we've got is good. I can see it going on for quite a while.
What I'm not sure is...how much of my poly ethics can I hold onto, or would I WANT to hold onto, if I went functionally mono with him? I'm not too stressed about it, because I do give myself the freedom to evolve my ideas and change my mind. But I wonder. Mainly, whatever road I am on with him, I'm not trying to run blindly down it. I want to hold hands and enjoy the scenery.
Spork
Active member
Which leads me to another thought process altogether...
What in the freaking heck do I want in terms of a living situation????
That exercise I mentioned in Fireplace a while back where you try and envision your perfect future and what it looks like...I have often had a hard time working that out, but being the sort of person who feels like ambitions are good and anything is possible, I like to think about what I might like if one day I can have anything.
I am not there yet. Maybe I never will be? It's ok. But I am wondering what kind of housing situation I'd like.
I still think that the best would be sharing a Victorian that is subdivided into apartments. People I enjoy, being together but still having their own space, would be cool.
But imagining if Zen and I lived together sometime...he would need some private space, and he has lived a very private life for a long time. I, on the other hand, really want to have people over sometimes. I like living in my apartment community because I hate dealing with a yard, and I like having the pool and clubhouse and all available even if I don't use it much.
I've got no idea how to manage the best of all those worlds. A townhouse or condo in a nice community with amenities maybe?
What I DO know is that if he and I (or if I found mature, stable enough people to be roommates...and such people don't usually WANT to have roommates, so it's not likely)...were to pool our housing money, we could afford a higher standard of living than what either of us has going on right now.
I'd love to be the independent solo-strong kind of gal I always envisioned. But to be honest, I'm struggling. This divorce is leaving me in a bad position. I do not want to declare bankruptcy, but I have considered it. Sharing the cost of living (housing) with another adult, would let me get my debts knocked out, and I'm scared because I don't know any other way to get that done. I don't want to move into a cheaper place in a neighborhood or school district that wouldn't be good for my kid... So the idea of entanglement as far as living together, assuming that Zen and I stay together long enough to know we could handle this...begins to have some appeal to me. The only way I'll continue to live in a "nice" place but pay less money for it, is to get some help.
Mind you...a little help would go a long way. If I had someone injecting $400-500/month into the cost of housing and utilities, I'd be pretty golden. I'm not thinking I need a man to support me. Just a partner and a mutually beneficial arrangement.
What in the freaking heck do I want in terms of a living situation????
That exercise I mentioned in Fireplace a while back where you try and envision your perfect future and what it looks like...I have often had a hard time working that out, but being the sort of person who feels like ambitions are good and anything is possible, I like to think about what I might like if one day I can have anything.
I am not there yet. Maybe I never will be? It's ok. But I am wondering what kind of housing situation I'd like.
I still think that the best would be sharing a Victorian that is subdivided into apartments. People I enjoy, being together but still having their own space, would be cool.
But imagining if Zen and I lived together sometime...he would need some private space, and he has lived a very private life for a long time. I, on the other hand, really want to have people over sometimes. I like living in my apartment community because I hate dealing with a yard, and I like having the pool and clubhouse and all available even if I don't use it much.
I've got no idea how to manage the best of all those worlds. A townhouse or condo in a nice community with amenities maybe?
What I DO know is that if he and I (or if I found mature, stable enough people to be roommates...and such people don't usually WANT to have roommates, so it's not likely)...were to pool our housing money, we could afford a higher standard of living than what either of us has going on right now.
I'd love to be the independent solo-strong kind of gal I always envisioned. But to be honest, I'm struggling. This divorce is leaving me in a bad position. I do not want to declare bankruptcy, but I have considered it. Sharing the cost of living (housing) with another adult, would let me get my debts knocked out, and I'm scared because I don't know any other way to get that done. I don't want to move into a cheaper place in a neighborhood or school district that wouldn't be good for my kid... So the idea of entanglement as far as living together, assuming that Zen and I stay together long enough to know we could handle this...begins to have some appeal to me. The only way I'll continue to live in a "nice" place but pay less money for it, is to get some help.
Mind you...a little help would go a long way. If I had someone injecting $400-500/month into the cost of housing and utilities, I'd be pretty golden. I'm not thinking I need a man to support me. Just a partner and a mutually beneficial arrangement.