thoughts please

[worldofecho]

Hi there,

My first post but here, really could do with some advice. I've not really spoke to many people about this, sorry if it's a long post.

My partner A and I have been together for about 6 years now, for the whole of that time we have been in an open relationship. This has meant we have both been free to have sex with other guys, but that we have had agreements that relationships outside of our own would be more casual (more like good friendships with sex)..

A has always been more sexually active outside of our relationship than i have, in large part because he is really into BDSM play that i'm not so interested in.

Things have not always been easy, in particular i have been occasionally jealous, adversarial and rude when it has come to meeting some of his previous sexual partners. Not cool, i know. But something I have tried to work on.

We still love each other very much, still sexually active with one another and we are planning on buying a house together this year. We still make each other happy.

However, last year things got really really tricky. Around spring time my brother suddenly and unexpectedly died and my mental health took a real nose dive - my studies we put on hold, i had to take tonnes of time of work, i was kinda a mess.

In the summer of that year A went to his annual BDSM summer camp - which is a week long camp where BDSM guys meet and play.

Before the camp we had a chat about relationship boundaries, I said to him "sex and play with others are fine, but i would be hurt if you used this week as a platform through which to have an affair" and "I need you to come back and focus energies on us, because this year has been really hard on me." He said he understood.

On returning from the camp he said he had met someone new, they had shared some really intense play, and that he wanted to keep seeing this guy as he had strong feelings that he wanted to explore. My first reaction was to say "oh cool, i understand and I'm ok with you exploring this stuff", but in reality I wasn't in a good place to hear this news. A few weeks later i began to feel a pretty intense set of feelings, like rage, betrayal and jealousy which were compounded by the grief i was already feeling. I flew off the handle.

I did stuff I'm not at all proud of, like snoop on A's messages with guy, and read A's diary.

I kept saying that i was ok with him visiting this guy, but then changing my mind in a jealous rage a few days later.

I didn't feel in control of my own feelings, i acted like a total jerk.

Most of all i was angry with A for bringing this stuff into our relationship when i had explained i didn't want it and when i had made it clear i was in a really vulnerable position.

In the end, we broke up for a few months and I moved out. When we got back together i made it clear that i wanted to focus to be on getting our connection in a better place, and i wanted connections with others to be paused. We have done a lot of this work, and i do feel like we're in a better place.

So it's time for the camp again this week. He is going with the same guy as last year. We had a conversation where i said some similar stuff, like "sex, play and friendship are all fine, but i really don't want to have more intense relationship conversations again off the back of this week" and "it's cool if you want to go have fun with him, but i just dont want it to impact on my life any more than it has already" and "I don't think i'm ready to be in a set up where you have two partners right now".

Thing is i feel guilty about this. I feel like i should just say "whatever way you want to connect with this guy i ok with me, just please lets stay connected too because i love you" but i don't think i can say that and mean it right now. Is that ok? Has anyone else felt that way?

I'm also really scared that we'll fall back into the negative pit falls of last year. I really don't want that at all. Can anyone advise around that? I just worried I wont be able to cope again if he says that we have to make big changes to our commitments again.

Wow long post. Sorry. Felt good to write it down though.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi worldofecho,

It sounds like you have a conflict between your circle of influence and your circle of concern. Your circle of influence is stuff you can control. Your circle of concern is stuff that matters to you. Where the two circles intersect, you don't have a problem, because you can control the outcome. Where your circle of influence stands alone, you also don't have a problem, because you're not concerned about the outcome. But where your circle of concern stands alone, you do have a problem, because you're worried about how things will turn out, and yet you can't control what will happen. This seems to describe your difficulties surrounding BDSM summer camp. You're concerned about what will happen with this same guy that A has had strong feelings for in the past. But you can't control that outcome. You're concerned about where your own feelings will go if A has strong feelings for him again. But you're having a hard time controlling that outcome as well.

Feelings aren't normally stuff you can choose. They are your psyche's way of responding to your environment. You can't always choose your environment either. What you can choose is the course of action you take in response to your feelings. The goal, then, is to choose a course of action that will help lead to a better environment in the future. When your environment improves, your feelings will improve. Then it will be easier to choose the next course of action. Eventually, your circle of influence will grow, and cover more of your circle of concern. Focussing on the things you can control, eventually leads to having control (or influence) over more things.

An example of your circle of influence is your relationship with A. You can control how much of a relationship you have with him. You can break up with him. You can separate from him for a period of time. You can reduce how much you invest in your relationship with him, and increase how much you invest in other relationships. These are just examples, they are not necessarily things you would actually do. But they're worth mentioning, as we want to concentrate on the things we can control.

You can control whether or not you meet with a therapist. This might be a particularly useful idea, a therapist may be able to help you adjust your thinking so that you don't get quite so upset when A has strong feelings for his camp buddy. You can control how you communicate with A. So, say, instead of flying off the handle, you could say, "I'm deeply disappointed that you're saying we have to make big changes to our commitments again. I thought we had an agreement that that wouldn't happen." Which brings to mind, how clear is your communication with A when the two of you come to an agreement in the first place? Are you both on the same page? Are you both agreeing to exactly the same thing? Something to think about.

There are probably other examples, I am just sharing a few things that pop into my mind right away. As I said, the goal is to stay focussed on what you can control. If you focus on stuff you can't control, you can get caught in an escalating cycle of helplessness, and you don't want that.

I'll let you know if I can think of some more ideas in the future. For now, I hope that this post will provide you with some useful food for thought.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Marcus]

I did stuff I'm not at all proud of

On a long enough time line, we will all be the very worst version of ourselves at some point. The trick isn't to be perfect all of the time, but to recognize which behaviors we will allow, and which ones we need to view as "that's not who I want to be, and I am going to take full responsibility for the struggle to be the person I admire".

Then, do your best. Hopefully your best is good enough to keep from destroying relationships with people you love.

So it's time for the camp again this week. He is going with the same guy as last year. We had a conversation where i said some similar stuff, like "sex, play and friendship are all fine, but i really don't want to have more intense relationship conversations again off the back of this week" and "it's cool if you want to go have fun with him, but i just dont want it to impact on my life any more than it has already" and "I don't think i'm ready to be in a set up where you have two partners right now".

You are setting yourself up for failure.

Even without the history of him not being able to stick to this restriction in the past, just understanding how people work makes this restriction unrealistic.

People forming bonds isn't a plan, it's just what happens. This becomes exponentially more true when they are sharing vulnerable aspects of themselves.

"whatever way you want to connect with this guy i ok with me, just please lets stay connected too because i love you" but i don't think i can say that and mean it right now. Is that ok? Has anyone else felt that way?

You are capable of whatever you are capable of.

However, just keep in mind that this rule is not going to keep you safe. Rules are great for business contracts, but not so great for relating to other fully autonomous human beings with complex and unpredictable minds and chemical make-up. Not only are people frequently not able to stick to these kinds of behavioral rules... they tend to be resentful of the rule-maker when they CAN stick to them.

It's a lose - lose proposition in my book.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry to hear of your brother's passing.

I'm also sorry you struggle.

i wanted to lift this bottom part up, but in reverse order.

I'm also really scared that we'll fall back into the negative pit falls of last year.

If you do, you know to come in out of the rain and not stay there being miserable, right? Your "staying-ness" is up to you. You could try couple counseling or working it out... but if it is just "same old song, different day"? You know to stop putting energy into it, right? You can step off the merry-go-round.

I really don't want that at all. Can anyone advise around that?

You could focus on what you DO want, rather than focus on what you do not want. Like hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. So however it goes, you will be ok either way.

I just worried I wont be able to cope again if he says that we have to make big changes to our commitments again.

Why are you telling yourself you cannot cope? I think you could fuel your "coping-ness" with your inner talk. Rather than fuel your fears.

Could tell yourself something more like "Ok. I can handle it. I might not LOVE handling it, but I will handle it" rather than telling yourself "I cannot cope."

I think you could cope. You won't LOVE it if you have to change things around again. Neither would you LOVE telling him "Actually, no. I do not want to change agreements. I prefer to keep them the same or disband."

But you can believe you will do what needs doing and you will cope if you have to.

I feel like i should just say "whatever way you want to connect with this guy i ok with me, just please lets stay connected too because i love you" but i don't think i can say that and mean it right now. Is that ok?

It is ok to avoid saying things you do not mean. Report honestly where you currently are at. Not where you wish you were at.

So it's time for the camp again this week. He is going with the same guy as last year. We had a conversation where i said some similar stuff, like "sex, play and friendship are all fine, but i really don't want to have more intense relationship conversations again off the back of this week" and "it's cool if you want to go have fun with him, but i just dont want it to impact on my life any more than it has already" and "I don't think i'm ready to be in a set up where you have two partners right now".

You seem to lay it clearly again. What you are and are not up for.

• You are up for him having casual sex/BDSM play at camp.
• You are not up for being a "V-arm" in a "V" situation where he is the hinge.

If he asks you to be in a V even though you already told him you are not up for that.... what's the consequence you will do?

Say something like "If he asks me to be in a V, then I am going to tell him NO and let the chips fall where they may. Even if we have to break up."

I'm not hearing what the consequence is on your boundary. Boundaries are for YOU to respect. Not other people.

If what you want is to be free of negative pits? Step away from drama that might lead to negative pits.

If you want to be stable and not "all up in the air"? Create your own stability.

If you want to be free of any "V" things? Don't sign up for any.

You are in charge of your choices. So plump for what you want out of life.

Galagirl

 

[worldofecho]

Thanks for you input everyone parts of what people have said have been really helpful.

He is off tomorrow morning so no doubt we'll talk more about the camp again tonight.

 

[Tinwen]

So it's time for the camp again this week. He is going with the same guy as last year. We had a conversation where i said some similar stuff, like "sex, play and friendship are all fine, but i really don't want to have more intense relationship conversations again off the back of this week" and "it's cool if you want to go have fun with him, but i just dont want it to impact on my life any more than it has already" and "I don't think i'm ready to be in a set up where you have two partners right now".

Did you get an answer? Where is your partner at? Are you two able to be honest to the point where he will say whether he'd really like a V, or not?

It sounds from your writing that maybe you are not at that level of honesty. Like you are afraid to say where you are at with the relationship, and so may be he.

I tend to agree with Markus - this situation seems to be set up for failure. Going off with someone for a week of bdsm play and not expecting feelings to deepen ... I just don't think that's how people work. Granted, people are all different and maybe some can do it - but for me, intense intimacy leads to intense feelings.
Now, intense feelings don't have to necessarily mean that the relationship shape has to change - if he's going in with the understanding that he may be feeling intense feelings and not doing anything about them - but people do find that hard to do.

I'm not sure how to handle the situation, but I would advise you to focus on the "stay connected with me" part. Don't ask for him not to develop feelings, ask for reconnecting time. Ask for phonecalls from the camp. Ask for the weekend after. Are you two going on vacation soon? Focus on that.

 

[worldofecho]

When we had the chat he said

"im only interested in doing more poly stuff if it works well for both of us" and "i've no interest in doing things which are going to cause more upset for us at home"

It seems like he understood that now was not the time to be changing the dynamics of our relationship.

However i agree that it seems pretty unlikely that he can go away and have loads of intense play with this guy and his feelings not deepen.

In truth i feel pretty guilty about denying him the relationship he wants. I feel like my strong feeling that i don't want to be in a V type relationship is getting in the way of his enjoying his time with the new guy as much as he wants to.

I'm honestly not sure what the implications of his breaking my boundary would be.

Breaking up doesn't feel like a good option. I love him and i want our relationship to work.

Maybe i should just just say "fuck it, do what you gotta do babe".

 

[kdt26417]

It's up to you ... but you have to decide what you can and can't stand. Giving him the green light doesn't help either of you if it causes you to resent him. Just be careful.

 

[GalaGirl]

Why are you poking the bear and cranking up your own anxiety?

"im only interested in doing more poly stuff if it works well for both of us" and "i've no interest in doing things which are going to cause more upset for us at home"

It seems like he understood that now was not the time to be changing the dynamics of our relationship.

Sounds like he's on the same page as you. Not asking you to changing into a V thing.

You are not able to go "Yay. Glad that part is sorted out" and leave it be?

Make plans for reconnecting when he comes home. Maybe go catch dinner and movie. Have some things to look forward to.

However i agree that it seems pretty unlikely that he can go away and have loads of intense play with this guy and his feelings not deepen.

So they deepen. And he leaves it as a "camp only thing" and doesn't ask to change to a V.

Why are you not willing for him to deal with his own feelings and his own choices? Aren't they his job?

In truth i feel pretty guilty about denying him the relationship he wants. I feel like my strong feeling that i don't want to be in a V type relationship is getting in the way of his enjoying his time with the new guy as much as he wants to.

You are telling him what YOU are willing and not willing to do. You are not denying him anything. If he wants to pursue, he could. He could break up with you and move on.

I'm not saying that to mean or anything. Just pointing out that you are trying to be responsible for his side as well as your side. His choices are his to make. He is choosing to keep the agreements of his own free will.

Why is this a problem for you?

How about everyone carries their OWN baggage?

• You do your jobs, and make your choices on your side.
• He does his jobs, and makes his choices on his side.
• What lines up, lines up.
• What does not? Doesn't.

I'm honestly not sure what the implications of his breaking my boundary would be.

I suggest you think about your boundaries. If you are with a person who keeps dinging you over and over, that's not very loving behavior.

Your partner doesn't sound like that.

But I wonder if perhaps part of the reason you seem so anxious is because you are in the habit of "don't make waves, go along with whatever" in this and other areas of your life. Which then causes anxiety because you don't know what's going to happen and if you are going to be ok. Like a leaf floating every which way in a river. Not like a captain of your own ship who steers.

Breaking up doesn't feel like a good option. I love him and I want our relationship to work.

Work out in a healthy, loving, respectful way? Or just work out in the sense of "we are not breaking up?"

There's a difference. I suggest you think that over too.

I have hopes that you will get through this rough patch and come out ok. Your partner seems willing to listen and isn't dinging you over and over. Your partner sounds like he wants to be here with you.

But you subsuming yourself to a relationship isn't good. I get that you are sad, perhaps still in mourning. But that doesn't mean you let everything to go to pot or let everything run you over. You could be assertive. It's ok for you to take up the space you do.

If you want to be in this relationship with him? RELATE. He cannot be a mind reader.

Actually participate here. Speak up about the things that concern you. What you are and are not up for. What's been on your mind -- either about your brother, camp, whatever. Make plans for reconnecting when he comes home so there's things to look forward to together.

Take a chance on actually being PRESENT in this relationship.

Galagirl

 

[Shaya]

Hi There Echo,

Firstly, a warm welcome to the polyamory forums and sorry that your intro to poly is happening at such a difficult time for you with family stressors.

I'm hearing you say that jealousy and insecurity are the driving forces behind your need for control of your current relationship, on a background of existing life stressors outside of your relationship. I see the rules that you place on your boyfriend's feelings as a way to feel control over a situation that you feel you have very little control over. I sympathise. I really do. I feel I've recently come out of that black hole myself. For what it's worth, I think you're doing better than me.

Having said that, I agree with previous posters in that your current method is not likely to work. People can't control their feelings. I never really understood that until Spork wrote this double piece (1, 2). Truly moving. I recommend it as a good short read.

There are 2 other reads which I feel you may find helpful in your current situation. One is about the spectrum of control in relationships and the second, an academic treatise on jealousy.

1. We exert a lot of control over our partner in monogamy, less control in relationships with casual sex, even less in polyamory and nearly none at all in relationship anarchy. I see your attempt at transitioning from a non monogamous model of casual sex with no feelings to something looking more like polyamory to be a transition of control. This article explains it better.
2. There are many articles on jealousy. This one helped me understand it on an intellectual basis better.

Good luck. It's not easy opening up when there are other life stressors around.