What are we doing to our marriage? We really need advice!

I would say, simply based on the fact that Dion has threatened to withhold your relationship, there is evidence that he is being emotionally abusive. It's not that he's a bad person, or that he can't be a loving, wonderful, kind man, but that he's learned the way to deal with his feelings is to dump and blame them on someone else.

I'm sure if Dion opened up to exploring the root of his anger, what triggers him, and ways to dissipate those feelings constructively, your relationship with him, and your relationship with your friends, would be right as rain.
 
AnnabelMore said:
If you think it would hurt to lose your friends now, imagine how much worse it would be if you'd gotten to the point where you had all decided to let love blossom, they had become a vital party of your heart... and THEN Dion freaked and unilaterally pulled the plug. It's one thing to lose a relationship because it just doesn't work out... you can get some closure there. But there's no closure to be had when a healthy relationship is vetoed.
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Oh my gosh, that's true. I think you just got to the heart of what I've been so scared of. That L word is scary, and not the way I would describe it. But the longer this goes on, the deeper that emotional connection keeps getting, and the harder it would be to have it suddenly severed. After just seven months, they are already among the closest friends I have ever had.

AnnabelMore said:
That is not to say you should dump your friends to protect yourself or "for their own good." Far from it! I don't believe in dismissing a good thing out of fear when there's a chance to work things out. But I do think things should maybe cool off a little for now. Maybe focus more on the friendship side; be honest with them that you're having some relationship issues that you're working on; that it's not their faults at all, and you both care for them. Hopefully if they're good friends they'll respect you for that and be patient!
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I like reading that. It gives me hope that maybe there is a way to proceed and not lose everything.

This is all such horrible timing. We have a condo booked and a two-day mini vacation planned with them next week, that we've all been looking forward to for a couple of months. I'm not quite sure how to deal with that yet.

Here is how I think I'm going to proceed. When Dion is done with work tonight, I'll sit down with him and have him read this thread. I have tears streaming down my face every time I read a new comment, and I imagine it will be equally hard for him to read--probably more so. But I still think he needs to see it. Hopefully he'll be able to at least listen to the advice you are all giving us, even if he can't accept it yet. There are some counselors within driving distance on the lists you gave me. I'm going to call a few and find out more about them. I think I'll make an appointment that I'll keep, with or without Dion. I'm pretty sure he'll agree to go with me, but even if he doesn't, I think I need some outside help and support to get through this.
 
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Wish I could give you a hug! This will have to do: *hug*
 
Wow.

Awakeandready, I have kinda been where you are, in a roundabout way.

My husband and I did some 'exclusive swinging' years ago. We had people we cared about greatly, and they, us. I had many problems in the beginning dealing with that. I had a few meltdowns, and did some of the things your husband did. I gave the cold shoulder to him. I nitpicked and argued when I saw something happen sexually that I didn`t approve of.

I actually was so pissed off once, I went to set a glass down on a glass coffee table, and not realizing the force I did it with, my whole hand ended up in shattered glass. I still have those scars. :rolleyes: I had a LOT of baggage and shit to work through.

We also didn`t use the 'poly' word. We tiptoed around it. We had vanilla times, family times, and sexy times.

I did figure my shit out, and we were then able to enjoy our friends. We really learned how to be new people.

Life is full of hard lessons, and we were not able to keep that particular relationship going. However, the lessons I learned have lasted for me. Part of figuring out my shit was forgetting the situation, and learning first how to respond appropriately when I am caught off-guard, a skill that had never been taught to me, one I hadn`t learned until those scenarios kept smacking me upside the head.

With all that went on, at that time, I was the 'problem child,' and my husband was the saint.

Skip ahead a bunch of years. We ventured into poly.

Buttons ended up pushed in a different scenario, and the shoe was suddenly on the other foot. It was my husband having meltdowns, and questioning things. He too got past it. But my point is, we all have triggers. We can choose to shut down, and handle everything the same as we always have, thereby holding onto our fears. Or we can choose to forget the 'scenario,' and first learn to handle things in an appropriate manner. When that is learned, we can begin to trust ourselves, and then others.

One thing I am not sure about is labelling. When we point fingers at someone and say: 'YOU`RE AN EMOTIONAL ABUSER,' sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'm not sure it works when:
A) they are someone we love, and love us back.
B) the whole reason someone is reacting poorly, is because they have never learned how to the tools to handle fear and hurt properly. If they don`t have the tools/skills, they aren`t going to suddenly say; 'Hey yeah, you're right. I`ll stop that crap.' They will get defensive, and more of the same will come about.

As human beings, I don`t think I have ever gotten close to someone and not seen a darker side. None of us are perfect. All of us have triggers, where we can react poorly to situations. Most of us are not proud of that. I think those we love need to know it`s ok for them to admit their problem, and that they haven`t a clue how to fix it.

The tricky line to walk is not to take someone`s shit while they are doing it.

When your husband was glaring at you, he was (I think) begging you to show some initiative, so he isn`t always the bad guy 'ending' things. For you, you don`t want to step on his toes. Yet what he sees is the fact you leave it up to him. So the vicious circle continues.

So stop 'the dance.' Both of you. Say what you want, and mean what you say. The non-verbal games are maddening.

Dion, forget the scenarios, and figure out how to respond to triggers, in a better way.

Awakeandready, while Dion is dealing with triggers right now, I`m thinking you could also benefit from learning how to deal with triggers. Your description of handling the broken boundaries sounds like you are so fearful of losing Trey and Sage that you are willing to say 'whatever' so that things still materialize. That is not good. :( How will anyone know to take your word for the truth?

For the record, what I learned years ago was to give myself time to think, to not respond to a trigger until I was in a calm place. Once I was, THEN talk it out. Basically, replacing a bad habit with a better one.

This was work, but became habitual over time. Now, no matter how hard someone tries to push my trigger, they don`t get me to shoot anymore. I do what I need to to, so I can be fair to all.

I also think you need to sit your friends down, and explain the arguments you have when they aren't around. Explain your fears, and just give them a general heads-up. They deserve that, rather then being shocked by a huge-ass argument happening unexpectedly.

Good luck.
 
Good points, SourGirl. I think it's very important to make the distinction that you can call out behaviors as "abusive behaviors" without labeling a person an "abusive person." But the word itself may be inflammatory, and making someone feel insulted/defensive is rarely a good way to generate productive dialogue, except inasmuch as it gets attention.
 
Just a quick update to this thread. When Dion came home last night, he seemed to be feeling a lot better about things, and we were talking reasonably for a while, but then things blew up again and we started arguing.

From my perspective, nothing has changed in our relationship with Trey and Sage since last week, when Dion was telling me how much he trusted me and trusted Trey, and that he was okay with things now and realized the sex wasn't the big deal he'd previously thought it was, that the sex was a lot of fun for him, and he knew that it was for me too, and that he was enjoying the friendship with Trey and Sage and had grown to care for Sage himself... blah, blah, blah.

But suddenly, without warning, or any cause that I could see (all he'll tell me is that hearing me with Trey that night was really hard for him and was especially so since things weren't coming together for him and Sage that night), Dion now feels the complete opposite and seems to see the relationship with Trey and Sage as a threat to our marriage. It doesn't seem to matter how much I reassure him, how much I try and remind him of the long talks we've had about this, and the agreements that had come out of them, how much I remind him that I've never been anything but 100% open and honest with him, and will continue to be, or how much I promise him that nobody could ever take his place in my heart, and that this relationship with our friends is fulfilling in a completely different way, and if anything, is only making my love for Dion stronger.

Now, the perspective he seems to be sticking to is that he has been pulled somewhat unwillingly into this relationship, that he never wanted it in the first place, and suddenly realizes that he's been lying to himself all along, and can't tolerate his wife with another man. 😕

But at the root of it, I think, is that I am more emotionally invested in this friendship than he is (which is true), and he is having a hard time understanding and accepting that. But since this isn't exactly a new revelation, I'm not sure why it suddenly became such a problem for him, seemingly out of the blue like this. And it doesn't mean that he isn't emotionally invested, too. It just means that he is less so.

I'm just so confused by his flip-flopping opinions. I don't know which reflects his true feelings... those of this week or last week. Obviously, I want to believe it was those of last week, or at least somewhere near the middle, so that maybe we could find a compromise.

So, it was with those differences that we went to bed last night. Big sigh...

But this morning, before he even got out of bed, he asked me if he could read this thread. So I brought computer and a cup of coffee to him, and he read. I think it was hard for him to read. He thinks you all think he is a monster now, though he sees the truth in much of what you wrote, and recognizes we have a problem to fix.

However, he really appreciated SourGirl's comments. He said, "Finally, at the very end, somebody understands me and the trouble I've been having with this."

Anyway, we didn't have much time before work, but it does seem that after a night of sleep his perspective is softening again. There was no more fighting this morning.

I told him about one of the counselors I was interested in and that I was going to call him today, and he didn't object. So, I've left a message for that person and am just waiting for a call back now.

I am still feeling really bad about Trey and Sage. The last they knew, everything was awesome. We'd just dropped some more boundaries and brought our relationship to another level of trust, and were looking forward to next week. Of course, all the flirty texts and email we are getting from them reflect that, and I'm not sure what, if anything, we should tell them, and how we're going to deal with two nights alone with them in just a few days. :confused:

I don't want to dump all of this on them. I know the idea that this could all come to an end like this will hurt them, too. Ugh.
 
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Can you cancel the trip and still get a refund?

If I were them, I would prefer the honesty and bravery up front, and delayed gratification on the trip, versus being blindsided by tension, or maybe even an explosion while I was already there. It's not dumping on them to just let them know you guys are going through a rough patch right now.

Polyamory (or ethical non-monogamy, if you will) doesn't work without loads of communication and honesty, so if you think it's a path you might want to go down at some point, why not get a head start on the tough but necessary components now? Again, if they're good friends they'll respect you more for your honesty, not less.
 
No, it's too late for a refund. Plus we've all arranged for the extra days off from work.

But they are good friends. Even though they'll be disappointed, I know they'll try their best to understand if we tell them we need to remain in our original couples for the weekend, and just have some friend-time with them.

The no-sex idea will be tough on three of us, but very good for Dion. There is still a lot of NRE flowing between the rest of us, even if it came to a crashing halt on Dion the other night.

I guess Dion just needs some non-stressful time, for him to remember all the reasons why we like them so much beyond the sex.
 
That sounds like a healthy way to handle it. If one member of a couple that's just opening up is experiencing anxiety, it can be very affirming to have it demonstrated that their partner is willing to slow down, pass up opportunities for fun things like sex, and otherwise prioritize them and show them that they don't take second place just because they're no longer the "one and only" when it comes to certain things.

Hey Dion, good on you for reading this thread, and taking in what was said, even though it was rough. That took some courage.
 
I was telling my hubby about this thread. He reminded me of something else that might be helpful to you both.

When a partner is feeling insecure, heavy with emotion, probably one of the worst things we can do is try to talk them out of how they feel. We can be well-meaning, trying to give examples of how things 'really are' but all it does is come across to the hurting person like: 'Your feelings are wrong and unjustified.'

We've learned to let that person feel the way they feel; to not minimize their feelings, even if it seems that the green-eyed monster has taken over. Many times jealousy tries to get in bed with 'intuition', and the emotional party probably does make valid points, in addition to some invalid points.

So, let the person talk and have their say. Let them get it all out, as long as it isn't harmful to those willing to listen.

Usually if it is channeled in a healthy way, the person feeling all the negative emotions, including fear, will calm down, think on it, and come back to the discussion knowing the things they truly felt, and what was the fear talking. Reassurance only works if the person on the receiving end is looking for it. Best wishes.
 
awakeandready said:
Redpepper, I need to address this first. I know I wrote a novel and you probably missed it. But please, give us a little credit. We're all educated, intelligent adults.

Prior to our quad, Dion and I have been monogamous for 25+ years, Trey and Sage for 15+ years. Plus we were all thoroughly tested for STIs. Pregnancy isn't an issue for either couple, although just for that off chance, both women are using backup. Yes, we had the responsible discussion with them.

Of course pulling out isn't safe sex!!!! That was simply a request that I had made to him because I was uncomfortable with the idea. He pulls out with me because he LIKES to. That's the only reason. For now, I had asked that he do so with Sage, as well. That's all.
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Thank you for clarifying. I didn't realize that.

awakeandready said:
All he'll tell me is that hearing me with Trey that night was really hard for him, especially since things weren't coming together for him and Sage. Dion now feels the complete opposite. He seems to see the relationships with them as threats to our marriage.
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It seems to me that he has suddenly realized that the sex is not just for sport and can be for something deeper, more connecting. That is a fairly common realization. Sex can have different meanings at different times. It sounds like his trigger is twofold: the aspect of you having sex with someone that you might just "love," and the aspect of him not getting laid, while you were.
 
Just a quick update to let you all know that we had an awesome two full days of "vanilla" fun with our friends. No stress. No drama. No pressure.
The second night, all four were on board, and sex came back into the mix. And that too was awesome. I think Dion and I did a good job communicating with each other through it all. We have been calm and drama-free since. I guess we're on the good part of the roller coaster ride, for now. What a relief.

We never did share the fact with T&S that we've been having some relationship issues. We were all having so much fun together that the time just never seemed right. Plus, I think Dion and I are both still hoping we can work through this on our own and not pull them into our drama and problems.

All the above said, we still set up an appointment with one of the counselors that we found on the list referred to earlier in this thread. I think the way we were ripping each other apart this past week scared us both.

Dion knows there is a problem. He wants to get help with learning better ways to cope with stressors than having his angry blowups. We both want to improve our communication skills. I think it will be helpful to have a neutral third party to help us talk about and clarify exactly where we are, what we're doing, and where we want to go with this.

Thanks again for all the advice!
 
Once it's not so intense, you and Dion might want to let Trey and Sage know that Dion has been having some serious issues. People tend to be able to sense tension. Trey and Sage may very well fear that the tension is happening because of something they have done.
 
Awakeandready, I've had very little experience with all of this. But I just want to say congratulations to both of you on what sounds like a wonderful marriage, where your acceptance and love shines through the anger/jealousy/insecurities that have reared up. It really moved me. Good luck to both of you.
 
Awakeandready, as I've been reading back through all the posts, it strikes me that you seem to be the one taking the majority of the responsibility for making sure that everyone else in the relationships doesn't get their feelings hurt, or not get their needs met, or are "protected" from negative events, etc., etc. While sensitivity to others is good, you are all adults, and each one of you is responsible for getting their needs met, protecting themselves, etc. It wore me out just reading about all your efforts!

I didn't hear that anyone else involved put the kind of time, energy or thought into the relationship dynamics that you have. I'm not saying they should, just maybe that you don't need to, either. I speak from personal experience, as one who spent many years trying to make it all better for everyone, then, finally realizing after some personal growth work that I can't, nor is it my responsibility to do so, when it comes to other adults.

The word is over-used, but I think there's a bit of "co-dependency" going on here on your behalf. Maybe part of the reason Dion's abusive behaviors are as infrequent as they have been is because you've gotten better at picking up the "cues" earlier on, as to what might lead up to an abusive episode, and heading things off before they get to an abusive stage. It would not be unusual for someone growing up in an abusive situation to take on this type of "role" or behaviors. Please consider discussing this with your counselor.

I have worked professionally with domestic-violence situations. When people with abusive behaviors say, "I'm sorry... I'm a shit"... etc.," our response is, "Don't tell someone you're sorry. Tell them what you're going to do about it, and then show them!"
 
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Welcome, and thanks for sharing. I agree with everyone else-- the anger and rage issues are going to have to be dealt with. Also, relationships often work best when things are paced a bit. With some discipline and restraint, it can be helpful to let more time pass between meetings, so the emotions can have a chance to cycle through. Some of the roller coaster stuff could be an indication to slow down. What's the rush?

There is a lot of good support here, lots of great people and good experience. Keep sharing. :)
 
I feel bad for R. He had deep conflicting emotions or limitations. If he couldn't play, then he didn't think you should consider playing, either. And it was unclear if you realized this. But R should have verbalized this at some point. My partner sometime does this. She thinks I know all of her non-verbal/facial expressions, and I don't. I'd rather she talk to me, especially if it's something she's uncomfortable with. I don't want to find out afterwards how upset or jealous or disappointed she was about something I did with somebody else.
 
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