Polyamory perspective on internet porn?

[Carma]

I prefer to look at it from a scientific view. There is a lot of new research out there. The article MT referenced is one of many that show evidence of the negative effects porn has on men and their relationships. If something affects my marriage negatively, yes, I am concerned.

Up till now I think porn has been more of a religious/moral issue, but now that there are actual scientific studies being done, I think it deserves our attention.

Many men seem to think it is harmless, and that "all guys do it." River, I think you're truly a stand-up guy. Maybe most human beings are tempted, but that doesn't mean they all succumb. People engage in all kinds of activities that may become habitual/addictive. At least it's worth looking into, to educate ourselves about the dangers.

 

[IndieSolo]

I think people are possibly missing something important here. Cheesehead, I sensed from your original post here that you are angry about your wife wanting you to accept poly, and you are looking at it as, "Well, now anything goes!" You started another thread to discuss how you feel your wife is moving too fast (though all she's done is talk and read about poly as a possibility). Now, in this thread, you paint a picture of unfairness. You want people here to think she's being unreasonable.

I'm supposed to approve of her being with another guy, but she's going to veto me jerking off to internet porn?

You feel like she's asked you to make this huge sacrifice, and it's unfair for you not to be able to look at porn. However, to me, it looks like some of your motivation behind wanting to look at porn, and even starting this thread, seems to be anger or hurt feelings about her wanting poly.

I sense that you are still incredibly hurt about her wanting another relationship and, perhaps somewhat unconsciously, you want to do something you know she would find hurtful to get back at her. You will feel justified in being hurt if everyone here agrees with you about the porn. She mentioned in your other thread how she came back from your honeymoon with an illness, how that limited/prevented sex, and how you retreated sexually because of it for several months. It seems your natural inclination leans toward pulling back when hurt and then retaliating passively, instead of addressing things directly. I think the hurt you're feeling is where you need to look, and you and Mrs. C. need to keep talking about the deeper feelings underneath the actions. Whether porn is healthy or not, right or wrong, isn't really the issue here, as I see it.

 

[jotajuntoajota]

I'm new to poly, but I believe we all have a right to enjoy and express our sexuality in any way we see fit. If it's porn or any other way, it's our life, our body. Yes, it is important to keep in mind when we have a partner in life, that their sexuality and how they view it is their right, as well... But you have to have an open mind when talking about such things, and not be judgmental. Not everyone will enjoy the same things you do. So I guess that's when talking openly can benefit both parties. That's what I think and believe, anyway.

 

[River]

I appreciate and respect what the other River here, "TrueRiver," had to say on this matter. The porn I've seen (and I've seen a fair bit, to confess) does in fact tend to contribute to objectification of persons as sexual objects, which I take to be a serious problem. Most porn does this by emphasizing sexual activity outside of fuller and rounder loving human relationships. I agree with TrueRiver that very explicit erotic film could be made and enjoyed without having this effect. It's not viewing the sexual act itself that can lead to problems. It is the way sex is treated, apart from relationships, in the broad sense.

 

[CheesyLady]

It seems your natural inclination leans toward pulling back when hurt and then retaliating passively, instead of addressing things directly. I think the hurt you're feeling is where you need to look, and you and Mrs. C. need to keep talking about the deeper feelings underneath the actions. Whether porn is healthy or not, right or wrong, isn't really the issue here, as I see it.

Holy smokes, I didn't think this would be such a hot topic. I see both sides of this subject, and how we have to decide how open our style of this would be.

No, I am not trying to be self-centered or controlling while I go do whatever I want.

I think I agree with Riverquite a bit on his view about this. For me, looking at stuff on the internet is very one-sided. There's no extra caring or loving being put in from another person for all of us to benefit from. If we look at it from the self-loving perspective, then maybe there is. I guess it depends on how you go about it.

In Mr. C's case, I don't think addiction is something to be concerned about.

NYCindie, I think you really nailed what was going through my mind, also. I'm not sure we've really found the root cause of some of our problems, so it feels like we keep coming across the same problems in different contexts. And like someone mentioned in our other thread, talking about poly brings all of that to the surface.

 

[River]

I think I agree with River quite a bit on his view about this.

Uh-oh! Now that we have two Rivers on board we're starting to get confused. The guy who goes by River as his login name is ... well me. The other one is trueRiver, who calls himself River. I was here first, which makes me first River. bla bla bla....

 

[CheesyLady]

Sorry, I was talking about what trueRiver had posted earlier in the thread. I had like three quotes but then only one showed up. I'll figure it out eventually!

 

[Carma]

I can't find the post I wrote earlier, maybe I didn't send it right(?) If I'm repeating myself, sorry....

Porn can cause intimacy problems in a marriage. (At least that's what the latest research is finding).

Could those intimacy problems lead to the desire to explore new relationships?

 

[MorningTwilight]

I can't find the post I wrote earlier, maybe I didn't send it right(?) If I'm repeating myself, sorry....

Porn can cause intimacy problems in a marriage. (At least that's what the latest research is finding).

Could those intimacy problems lead to the desire to explore new relationships?

This is something I've wondered myself, so I'm trying to conduct an experiment: lay off the naughty websites and see how or if my feelings change. Like high-fat, sugary foods, the naughty websites can be hard to let go (forgive the pun), but I think the exercise in self-knowledge is worth it.

One thing that I've found right away is that my fantasies (daydreams, whatever you want to call them) have become even more romantic than they were before, and they weren't all that sexual to start with. That may just be me--a sample size of one is too small for any reasonable inferences. At any rate, my need/desire to love others has not gone away, but it's early days yet.

If I understand the situation in this thread correctly, CheesyLady is not herself a viewer of internet porn, yet she most definitely identifies as poly, so there's another potential data point ("the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data,' the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data' ...").

Regards,
MT

 

[MichelleZed]

Okay, let's not get too excited about the "science" about the damage that porn causes. I would like to point out that these studies seem like preliminary research, at best, relying heavily on case studies. We have to be careful when we interpret preliminary research like this that we don't take the idea farther than the study recommends. That's not being scientific.

There have also been other studies elsewhere that find that porn is harmless-- or not only that, that there is no evidence it causes sexism, and that it may even reduce sexual violence. Here's an article in Scientific American you can check out which references several recent porn-related studies.

Let's be careful not to make generalizations like, "porn damages marriages." Mainstream psychology generally views infidelity as damaging to marriages too, and here we all are, proving that wrong.

Cheesy Lady, I guess I have a question for you. You say "For me, looking at stuff on the internet is very one-sided. There's no extra caring or loving being put in from another person for all of us to benefit from." What do you mean by that? Do you expect to benefit directly from Mr. Cheesehead's private sexual life? Do you think he is entitled to his own private sexual life, or should it all be for you?

 

[MorningTwilight]

Okay, let's not get too excited about the "science" about the damage that porn causes. I would like to point out that these studies seem like preliminary research, at best, relying heavily on case studies. We have to be careful when we interpret preliminary research like this, that we don't take the idea farther than the study recommends. That's not being scientific.

Did you follow the link I provided? In the comments thread, the author's article mentions thousands of postings on many many different web forums, including forums otherwise totally unrelated to sexuality, such as bodybuilding forums and so on. Granted, it's a self-selected sample; however, the author is very careful to use words like "might" and "may" rather than "will," and to qualify his hypothesis with phrases like "for some people."

Regardless, I think that we can agree that ED problems are NOT normal for twenty-something men, and yet the article's author finds many, many men of that age raising exactly that complaint, and they all have frequent internet porn viewing in common.

Here's another site that gathers all of this information together: yourbrainonporn.com .

There have also been other studies elsewhere that find that porn is harmless--or not only that, that there is no evidence it causes sexism, and that it may even reduce sexual violence. Here's an article in Scientific American you can check out which references several recent porn-related studies.

Not one of those asks or addresses the questions of ED and delayed ejaculation, which are the very complaints of the young men discussed in the Psychology Today article.

I can say, from my own experience, as a man who has viewed internet porn since the days of dialup, that although I do not have ED problems, I recognize some of the other symptoms, such as delayed ejaculation. (Yeah, I know that this at first this sounds like it would be a good thing, until you realize that it includes not being able to get off at all when in bed, and that's happened to me a handful of times. Backing off on the naughty websites has always cured it.)

Let's be careful not to make generalizations like "porn damages marriages." Mainstream psychology generally views infidelity as damaging to marriages too, and here we all are, proving that wrong.

Careful with that one. Most people here (I think) do not equate "ethical non-monogamy" with "infidelity." To most, "infidelity" means "cheating," and I doubt you'll disagree with the claim that cheating damages marriages.

Anyway, we've hijacked Mr. CheeseHead's thread. I only wanted to sound a cautionary note; I did not want to imply that Mr. CheeseHead was wrong to "take matters into his own hands" when he felt the need. I think a good movie with some erotic scenes might be a better and safer choice than internet porn, though. Most such movies suck on ice, but there are some that don't.

As a completely friendly aside, the third time I visited Wisconsin (the first was an overnight motorcycle blast to Minnesota, dodging some spectacular thunderstorms along the way, and the second was the return leg of that trip, really no time spent to see or do anything), the discovery of chocolate cheddar cheese fudge was almost enough to make me believe in the existence of a higher power. That stuff is AWESOME.

Best,
MT

 

[MichelleZed]

Did you follow the link I provided? In the comments thread, the author's article mentions thousands of postings on many many different web forums, including forums otherwise totally unrelated to sexuality, such as bodybuilding forums and so on. Granted, it's a self-selected sample; however, the author is very careful to use words like "might" and "may" rather than "will," and to qualify his hypothesis with phrases like "for some people."

Regardless, I think that we can agree that ED problems are NOT normal for twenty-something men, and yet the article's author finds many, many men of that age raising exactly that complaint, and they all have frequent internet porn viewing in common.

I did read your link, and it is precisely because of the qualifiers you mention that we need to be careful not to draw global conclusions from these case studies. Porn "may" be causing problems for these men, but of course they are all from a sample group of men with ejaculatory problems. Control samples of men with no ejaculatory problems may consume porn just as frequently: we have no numbers on that from the study.

I can say, from my own experience, as a man who has viewed internet porn since the days of dialup, that although I do not have ED problems, I recognize some of the other symptoms, such as delayed ejaculation. (Yeah, I know that this at first this sounds like it would be a good thing, until you realize that it includes not being able to get off at all when in bed, and that's happened to me a handful of times. Backing off on the naughty websites has always cured it.)

This is, however, anecdotal evidence. I have some more for you: my husband masturbates to internet porn all the time, and has reported no delayed ejaculation. His viewing of "naughty websites" does not seem to be correlated with his ejaculation patterns at all.

Careful with that one. Most people here (I think) do not equate "ethical non-monogamy" with "infidelity." To most, "infidelity" means "cheating," and I doubt you'll disagree with the claim that cheating damages marriages.

Well, I'm part of this subgroup too, so of course I don't view ethical non-monogamy as cheating. Our opinion on this, as I was trying to point out, is not mainstream, however. We think the mainstream is wrong about this.

It is very possible that mainstream opinions about porn (which is what you are getting from many of these articles by psychologists) may be similarly flawed.

 

[IndieSolo]

There is a difference between a porn addiction and just watching porn. If someone needs it to get off, I'd say that's a problem.

I think we have to remember that this thread is really about Mr. and Mrs. Cheesehead negotiating on how to make poly work for them. I think Mr. C. feels like porn is a bargaining chip and a way to even the score now that Mrs. C. wants poly.

 

[MorningTwilight]

There is a difference between a porn addiction and just watching porn. If someone needs it to get off, I'd say that's a problem.

I think we have to remember that this thread is really about Mr. and Mrs. Cheesehead negotiating on how to make poly work for them. I think Mr. C. feels like porn is a bargaining chip and a way to even the score now that Mrs. C. wants poly.

Maybe, but I think you're forgetting what base, vile, pleasure-driven creatures we men really are.

Even men in mono relationships, in which poly is never ever even considered, "beat the bishop" from time to time. It's possible, probable even, that Mr. C was viewing internet porn long before Mrs. C raised the topic of poly. In that case, it's not a bargaining chip, or a form of revenge at all. It's a pre-existing behavior.

Provided that internet porn doesn't become a substitute that damages the real thing, doing a Wankenstein's Monster impression every now and again should not be a problem. I certainly don't think its wrong, per se, but then, emotions aren't rational things. If Mrs. C is finding herself jealous of the porn starlets on the screen, it's a very real feeling for her, and something they should work through together. Maybe the porn starlets evoke body image issues (quite possible, as someone who's job relies upon remaining thin and fit will spend many hours a day at it, whereas those of us in the real world often cannot carve out the time required, or aren't willing to go under the knife to get that look, or what-have-you). We don't know unless they tell us, so I'm at least not going to read anything malevolent into Mr. C's desire to overdevelop one of his forearms.

Dr: "So, Mr. Cheesehead, how exactly did you get carpal tunnel?"

Mr C: "Um, uhhh... I'd really rather not say."

(This is me being a right snarky bastard, but it's all intended to poke gentle fun. Cut me some slack-- I just listened to 6 straight Savage Love podcasts.)

Be well,
MT

 

[IndieSolo]

Even men in mono relationships in which poly is never ever even considered "beat the bishop" from time to time. It's possible--probable even--that Mr. C was viewing internet porn long before Mrs. C raised the topic of poly. In that case, it's not a bargaining chip or a form of revenge at all--it's a pre-existing behavior.

Of course I know that mono men whack off to porn. And Cheesehead did say he has looked at it. I didn't say he hadn't ever. But it seems that his question was emotionally charged, but not just about whether porn was okay or not. My gut picked up an underlying anger from how he presented it.

 

[MorningTwilight]

Of course I know that mono men whack off to porn. And Cheesehead did say he has looked at it. I didn't say he hadn't ever. But it seems that his question was emotionally charged, but not just about whether porn was okay or not. My gut picked up an underlying anger from how he presented it.

I'm sorry, but I didn't get that from his words (and I've just now gone back and reviewed the entire thread). What I got was incredulity: "You want to be with other men, but you don't even want me to look at pictures of other women?" It appeared (rightly so, IMHO), that Mr. Cheesehead was viewing this as a helluva double standard. I see you jumping in at post #4 assuming that he was doing what he did out of anger:

You can wave the poly flag and use it as an excuse to do lots of things your wife takes issue with, be a total asshole if you want to -- but at what cost to your marriage?

I did not get that from his (very brief) initial post in this thread at all. That said, it also appears (at least from what has been written), that Mr. C is doing a lot of interpreting and assuming of what Mrs. C really means, and that's not helpful, either. For sure, they need to talk this out.

You could certainly be right, and I might be all wet. There could also be a bit of both at work. Fortunately, as with poly itself, this is not a competition.

 

[IndieSolo]

I could be wrong, but Mrs. C. seems to think there's something to it. I was keeping his other thread in mind, and just going by my intuitive "hit" on what he was saying.

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm a woman. I started looking at porn at about age 11, when my sister and I discovered our dad's stash of Playboys (back in the stone age before Internet).

I am also an artist and even at that age had a good understanding of anatomy, enough to draw my own porn and share it with friends, who also were good at drawing. We'd sit and exchange pix we drew.

It wasn't graphic, just pix of sexy ladies, mostly. Later, when I became sexually active, my own drawings became more explicit.

I can also get aroused by fine art, erotic movies, romantic/sexual novels, rock music and videos, pictures of clothed yet sexy celebrities, and hot people on the street. However, my own fantasy life is good. I can masturbate and get off quite easily to the stories and images in my own head.

I like to think I am sex positive and prefer real life partners who are too, and are as frank and unashamed of it as I am. (My ex husband did not fit this bill.) Once we broke up and I had more privacy, I started browsing internet porn on occasion. It's just one tool in my sexual arsenal. I am not addicted and far prefer real life sex. However, porn can educate me and inspire me to try out activities that might not have occurred to me on my own. So can actual sex manuals, and sex ed websites.

Now and then, miss pixi and I look at porn together. Sometimes we look at hardcore BDSM porn. We don't have a system of bars, cages, hooks in the ceiling and pulleys in our apartment. We are not adept at elaborate shibarii. So looking at people with a more elaborate set-up can inspire us.

Unless someone is addicted to porn and prefers it over real life sex, I really don't see a problem.

Some people (me) have a very strong sex drive and need to cum a lot. Our partners might not be that sexual, or we might not have time in our schedules to fuck every day. So... yeah, porn can be a tool to get that orgasm (or multiples in my case) so we can then go about our day without a hard-on/herection getting in the way every damn minute.

 

[Cheesehead100]

I think we have to remember that this thread is really about Mr. and Mrs. Cheesehead negotiating on how to make poly work for them. I think Mr. C. feels like porn is a bargaining chip and a way to even the score now that Mrs. C. wants poly.

This whole revenge/getting even thing is way off the mark. I honestly didn't understand Mrs. Cheesehead's perspective. After an hour of non-productive discussion with her, I hoped that you guys could give us a fresh voice, which you have. The "self love" description helps her to understand my point of view and the "consequences of porn" helps me to understand hers.

RE: the consequence of viewing porn, I've have been looking at internet porn on and off for years, longer than I've been with Mrs Cheesehead. When we first started dating, I had been without a woman for about a year. My sexual stamina sucked, maybe due to looking at porn, but I immediately addressed the issue by working on my control and endurance. I can assure you that sexual dysfunction due to porn is not the issue here.

She mentioned in your other thread how she came back from your honeymoon with an illness, how that limited/prevented sex, and how you retreated sexually because of it for several months. It seems your natural inclination leans toward pulling back when hurt and then retaliating passively, instead of addressing things directly

I'm not even sure how to respond to this... Mrs. Cheesehead told the story in a hurt state of mind and in my opinion, mis-represented me in a negative light. To be labeled passive aggressive based on this (fraction of a) story is very insulting.

 

[CheesyLady]

Cheesy Lady, I guess I have a question for you. You say "For me, looking at stuff on the internet is very one-sided, and there's no extra caring or loving being put in from another person for all of us to benefit from." What do you mean by that? Do you expect to benefit directly from Mr. Cheesehead's private sexual life? Do you think he is entitled to his own private sexual life, or should it all be for you?

MorningTwilight, next time through you should grab some fresh cheese curds from a cheese factory. By fresh I mean not battered or deep fried, and still warm. They'll squeak as you eat them-- squeaky cheese!

Michelle, no, not all for me. Yes, I expect to benefit from the energy it would bring, as I would hope to bring home to him if I had an outside relationship. When I was doing initial research about polyamory, I came across this on wikipedia, "Compersion is a state of empathetic happiness and joy experienced when an individual's current or former romantic partner experiences happiness and joy through an outside source, including, but not limited to, another romantic interest. This can be experienced as any form of erotic or emotional empathy, depending on the person experiencing the emotion." What I mean by what I said earlier was that if porn was Mr. C's secondary, so to speak, there wasn't anything for the unit of us + porn to gain from what I understand about compersion. That comes back to what trueRiver was talking about with things being in a caring relationship setting.

As another note, up until his last post, Mr. C has accurately shared with the group my thoughts (I spent a lot of time deciding what to put in my first post, and how to say it). He is in the thread more often than me, so can help prevent the group from twisting my thoughts in the wrong direction. It's my understanding that a great amount of actual communication is done in tone of voice and body language, so here there's a lot to guess at or see the wrong way. I think that's why I was blown away with NYCindie picking up some underlying things that have been going through my mind.

Now to see if I can say this right-- the issues that NYCindie picked up on, to me, are feelings which I think we need to address. Feelings aren't factual, and with us both having engineering-type backgrounds, it's hard for us to differentiate between a feeling and an actual factual thought sometimes. In that area, counseling has helped a bit. When I say I feel that X may be a problem, it seems to be taken as me seeing it as a fact, and that's offensive to Mr. C when he feels we've addressed it, or it's not really an issue to him.

To put this whole thread in context, Mr. C some time ago (pre-poly) had asked my opinion on the whole thing, and I thought I was clear I didn't want him using it when I made him some. When I found out about it again, then we got to discuss it in a new context.

And I'd say no to the idea of me having a problem with it because the gals are better looking than me, or something. Mr. C shared some of the details of what he is looking at, and it sounds more like homemade stuff, than from a studio cranking the stuff out. Besides that, I don't see how I could be self-conscious with my body and be okay with starting a new relationship with someone outside of my marriage. Maybe that does happen, but is not the case for me. I appreciate other beautiful women (looking at clothed people around) and enjoy my own wonderfully feminine body.