Turnabout

Oh, I am glad Butch decided to take a break from the madness for his own health and peace. And I am glad you're OK with it and actually glad to not be having sex with anyone right now. I think you need the break too. With both of "your men" less on your radar now, you can concentrate on getting yourself healthy. Going to therapy, getting tested for STDs, reading, etc.

(Is Butch going to get tested as well? He should, if you two had unprotected sex of any kind since Sun started up with Barbie.)

Your lack of obsession with either man will give you more energy for your kids now too, which I am sure they will appreciate. How old are they?
 
Struggling this morning. I know it is better for Butch to stay away. And it's probably better for me too. As long as I don't go into his head, and start imagining how he must be feeling..... I'm ok. (Is he missing me? Ouch. Is he not missing me? Ouch.) Either way it's just painful. Unless I focus on my breathing, in the present second, and realize I can get through this.

I keep listening to Marie Digby, "Beauty in Walking Away." It's such a poignant song. And I like all her stuff.

I noticed a bag next to my bed this morning. It was a Bath & Body Works bag, no tissue paper or anything, with a bottle of Victoria's Secret Pink lotion in it. ??? Here's my guess (Oh, how I love to write scripts!) -- Sundance is going to say he was thinking of me, so he got me a little something. Here's the joke/insult in that --

#1 The Bath and Body Works bag has been laying around our house since HIS birthday, when BARBIE gave him some gifts in it.
#2 I happen to know that EVERY TIME you buy something at Victoria's Secret, THEY GIVE YOU A GIFT BAG. Without fail, every time. (Anyone out there -- am I wrong???)
#3 My theory is, he bought something for HER at Victoria's Secret, and got me a bottle of lotion to .... what, ease his conscience? butter me up? appear "thoughtful"? (hmmmm -- think he's still got the receipt??)

Well, Barbie rates -- SHE got the BAG!

And whatever sumptuous sexy little lingeree that came inside of it, that she can put on her bombshell body.

She is supposedly in Hawaii with some girlfriends. I guess she's gonna have a nice homecoming present when she gets back. All I know is, I don't have to worry how many times she got "LEI'D" in Hawaii by how many strangers! ;)

Or maybe he just regifted something Barbie had laying around -- I mean, she may have given it to him to give me, who knows? Or "one of his secretaries at work" gave it to him to give me -- ? He doesn't read this forum or he'd have a heads-up enough to make up another fucking story. I'm waiting to hear if he even mentions it. I certainly am not calling him to say, "what's this little gift I found by my bed this morning?" ("Awwww, honey, you SHOULDN'T HAVE.")

He thinks I am such a stupid fool. Good god, could that be because I've BEEN ONE, for 13 years?????

It's a bad feeling. :mad:

Then again -- Barbie got the bag, all right. :rolleyes:

I hate being this way. I want to be loving. I want to be happy for him -- he's in love, right? Or in lust, at the least. She is sexy and exciting, and he is thrilled, and I could be so, so, happy for him. I'd even appreciate the way he (or she - ?) thought of me and got me a little something from VC too...... except he's LYING, to her AND to me. He is such a fucking shell of a man, a total sham, a shiny little mess. He is pathetic -- but I CAN'T AFFORD TO BE SYMPATHETIC TO HIM RIGHT NOW. That is a horrible play on my emotions.

I read a book, "The Sociopath Next Door," where an actual sociopath said, "What I want MOST from people..... their PITY." I simply cannot bear to think that this man I've lived with and loved for 13 years could really be a sociopath. It scares me and it grieves me. I kept looking for other things to explain his behavior, more "preferable" disorders, like OCD, ADHD, Narcissism, depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, sex addiction, alcoholism, or reasons like his dad abused him, he was too good-looking his whole life and he became a sex-symbol, no one understands him, he needs friends, he needs god, he needs therapy.......

Crap. What do I need?

I need to BREATHE.
 
And yes, I need to focus on my kids. Mags -- they are 16, 14, 11, and 9. (Two oldest are out on their own).
 
Aw sweetie, I feel your pain for sure.

Just something to consider... people with ADHD can very much resemble sociopaths, but they're not. They DO care deep down inside, they don't have zero feelings, but they are pretty emotionally immature and how they react to things seems very thoughtless.

Especially the lying. Oy vey the lying!!! Interestingly ADHD affects the frontal cortex which affects focus and judgment and impulse control-- and also morality. So yeah... ADHD types can be morally ambiguous a lot of the time. Not to say that's an excuse by any means, just maybe an explanation.

I mention this because at the beginning of this year I actually read TWO books on sociopaths because some of the vibes I was getting off of hubs were reflecting that. However, between reading those books and re-evaluating the information on ADHD and doing more research within my program at school I got a better grip on the differences. There are definite similarities, though. However low-self esteem is not a sociopathic tendency! :) (ADHD and Borderline Personality Disorder share a lot of characteristics as well--low self-esteem, low impulse control, bad judgment, interesting moral decisions, risk-taking behavior, seeking excitement-- but there are other things that differentiate them.)

But... I do think you are right, you need to focus on you and your kids and find some solace in your life on its own and maybe some direction down the road at some point that you do FOR YOURSELF. :)

The fact is, Sundance will have to hit rock bottom to make any kind of change. Unfortunately that's the way of ADHD. They have to lose everything or be in imminent danger of losing everything to wise up. And even then, some don't, and just get back into the cycle of new girl/excitement/lying/NRE/wearing off/boredom/new girl. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

I know I've been pushing the tara brach stuff a lot lately, but listening to her audio talks (I usually listen to one each morning) has helped me IMMENSELY in dealing with my own emotions and reactions, and helping me come to terms with things in my life I have no control over, so that they no longer (for the most part) wreak havoc on my emotions and keep me spinning in my thoughts.

Just a thought because I know how easy it is to do the "I bet he did this because X" spiel in your head and all that really does is spin you up and make you more upset and ruin YOUR day. Doesn't ruin his!! I spent a lot of this spring/summer in that state and it sucked. Ruined a lot of time where I could have been enjoying my friends and my kids and a lot of other things if I hadn't been so focused/concerned/messed up over my hubs.

Though definitely spending some time grieving the loss of the relationship you thought you had is in order. It's a sad thing, and going through the process of mourning the loss (and that of Butch) is definitely needed.
 
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Carma said:
I noticed a bag next to my bed this morning. It was a Bath & Body Works bag, no tissue paper or anything, with a bottle of Victoria's Secret Pink lotion in it. ??? Here's my guess (Oh, how I love to write scripts!) -- Sundance is going to say he was thinking of me, so he got me a little something. Here's the joke/insult in that . . . I'm waiting to hear if he even mentions it. I certainly am not calling him to say, "what's this little gift I found by my bed this morning?" ("Awwww, honey, you SHOULDN'T HAVE.")
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My nasty side just thought, "so let him see it in the garbage pail when he comes home."
 
Minxxa said:
Unfortunately that's the way of ADHD. They have to lose everything or be in imminent danger of losing everything to wise up. And even then, some don't, and just get back into the cycle of new girl/excitement/lying/NRE/wearing off/boredom/new girl. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
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OMG this has been my experience as well. Part of the problem is that they actually convince themselves that their lies are fact. It took a counselor and a near divorce before my husband was able to own up to his shit.

nycindie said:
My nasty side just thought, "so let him see it in the garbage pail when he comes home."
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If he is anything like my husband, he wouldn't even notice this :rolleyes:. I would hand it back to him and tell him that you don't appreciate receiving the "freebies" or the "after-thought" from a gift he gave his girlfriend.

Just a thought - Considering how short of money you guys have been, is it possible that she was actually getting stuff for herself, I never see anyone only buy ONE lotion? Not saying this makes it any better, and he shouldn't be called on it, just it might not have been a "gift" to the girlfriend. Tell him if he really wants to let you know he was thinking of you, a hand written card and/or _____ (something simple, inexpensive but takes thought and effort) would be more effective and not as likely to make you feel like the after-thought.
 
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You know, unless there's an actual diagnosis, you won't know whether Sundance has ADHD or not. So, Carma, I wonder how useful it is to make any conclusions about what's going on with him, based on ADHD symptoms. Last year, I thought for sure I have ADD (inattentive type, which is more prevalent in women) and both my therapist and psychiatrist felt I do not. Some people can have ADHD tendencies, and not have ADHD. Only a real diagnosis can tell you. There can be other reasons for certain behaviors.
 
I thought you had moved into a roommate ... separate rooms... lets be civil to one another type relationship. Let say you figure it out ...diagnose his mental problems ...come up with a board certified treatment plan ... doesn't he need to brought in on this.....if drug therapy would be necessary are you planning to slip it in his food ...in the communal refrigerator? Do yo have meals together anymore?

Speaking of meals makes me think of cakes ....when I think of cakes I think birthdays ....well what do you know its MONO"S Birthday...Happy birthday mono . You're not get older your getting longer....isn't gravity great .
 
Who said anything about diagnosing him and slipping him meds? Of course that would be something he'd have to do by going and seeing a doctor himself. I just said that there shouldn't be any assumptions made unless there is a diagnosis.

Geez, DH, was the only reason you posted here was to meet your goal of adding b'day greetings to Mono on every thread? That's so weird and sort of annoying.
 
Yeah DH that's just wierd.

NYCINDIE you're absolutely right in that she can't diagnose him and it will take a counselor or psychologist to officially be able to diagnose adhd.

However.. (you knew I was going to say that!) the problem is that most people with ADHD do not get diagnosed as adults until they do their own research (or their spouses do) and recognize what's going on from descriptions of other people going through it. I know countless people who just thought they were fucked up individuals and that was just it (including my husband), and they would never have figured it out or done anything about it had they (or their spouses) not done some research. Or, which happens a lot, they have a child diagnosed and learn about it because of that and then go AHA! THAT'S what's been going on for 40 years! :)

So yeah, she can't diagnose him, and really shouldn't, however... if by reading the book she recognizes her marriage step by step (which I did, and many other ADHD spouses do) it can at least do one thing and that is give her an idea of where he may be coming from, a little understanding into the different ways his brain is working (or not), and show her how her reactions are contributing to the issues.

For example, for me-- learning that my method of communicating (which entailed going through an issue to try to find the bottom line WITH my husband there) was not only not working, but was actively making our issues worse. I learned I need to go through that process either alone, in writing or with a girlfriend or therapist until I get the nugget of gold of what the issue is and what needs to be done-- and then I talked to him, short, sweet and to the point.

Just knowing this has made my life 1,000 times better.

I also have a lot more empathy for my husband, how frustrating it is for him sometimes, and that in itself is a gift. Instead of being frustrated AT him (why does he do x, why can't he just blah blah blah), I can see it's hard, I appreciate the effort he does make and I try to make it easier in whatever ways I can. And when he has his moments of striking out with frustration at something (usually he hears something and misunderstands it and reacts) I just ignore the striking out, give him a kiss and go away leaving him to get over it himself (which he does pretty fast). I have avoided a ton of arguments I would have previously gotten into just doing that, instead of trying to explain or calling him on the reaction which just throws gasoline on a fire.

If ADHD really is the issue, then at least learning more can perhaps help Carma be a little more empathetic to Sundance. Not let him get away with shit, but learn how best to communicate with him, learn what NOT to communicate, and have a better relationship at least as parents because that is forever! :)
 
Cindie,

I think you took my comments personally...sorry.... I was thinking that if they are in "the moving on stage" the "lets just be roommates" .... that she might want to spend her time planning her future ....not looking back. She said she was done ...didn't see how it could work out ...that being the case why invest the time and money trying to figure out Sun's issues.

Very sorry that both cindie and minxxa found my lighthearted birthday greeting weird and annoying.... obviously you two are not fans of Mono's work ...to each his own I guess .... Every party needs a pooper..

If know Carma...and I think I do.... she will not offended by anything I said... (she is a fan of his work)..... she may join in the celebration ....at least that's my hope.

Hey when's national healers Day? more cake
 
Once I realized that Dh is often (though obviously not always) joking, his comments made a lot more sense. :) Correct me if I'm wrong, Dh.
 
Time for some humble pie. :eek:

LUCKILY, I never confronted him about the gift -- because yesterday my son came in and asked me, "Did you find something next to your bed, Mom?" And I said, "Yes............." He said, "Oh, yeah, the neighbor dropped that off, and said thanks for giving their daughter a ride home the other day.....!"

I feel like a real DORK! Jumping to such conclusions. (It's pretty coincidental that they used a bag exactly like the one she used, tho!)

I guess it shows what a bizarre life I am leading, does it not?? I'm so sorry for taking you all along for the ride :( -- I warned you, I like to write scripts! :p

ANYWAYS.... The diagnosis of my husband....... I guess it really comes down to, nothing changes if nothing changes. I don't see him admitting that his life is unmanageable, so at this point I don't see much hope. The good thing is, I am working on making my OWN changes, so there's where all the hope lies!

Dinged -- I see where you're shining the spotlight on my insanity. Luckily, it's not gotten to the pathological level of MEDICATING him -- please! I'm sick, but I'm not that sick! I thank you for pointing it out tho -- I need to stop going down that road, don't I? Point strangely given, but well taken.

We are "living as roommates" but not exactly. The boundaries have not been clearly defined, as we're pretty new to this and still a little in shock to be here, really. The other day as I was leaving to go somewhere, we hugged, and then he tried to kiss me. I said, "I'm pretty sure roommates don't do that" and then he kind of planted one on me, anyway, and that made me very uncomfortable. He is trying to keep up appearances -- the kids don't know, so we are still sleeping in the same bed a few times a week, with no physical contact except maybe a pat on the shoulder. THIS is not going to work. We are going to have to talk about this, but so far I've been successfully avoiding him. Our schedules have been crazy, and we've been ships that pass in the night -- I work 3 nights a week, and he works all day with a very long commute. Anyway, we'll get it straightened out.

Barbie is still in Hawaii so I'm sure something will shake up once she returns.

Butch asked me to meet for coffee today. I think we are both at peace with the decision to stop sleeping together. HE is healthy (mentally, emotionally) enough to see that he got sucked into some madness and had to get out, for his own sake. I'm so lucky to know him. He is having heart surgery Monday. I can't believe he has a heart condition -- love must surely come from someplace else.:rolleyes:
 
It's not easy being civil, when there is a lot of resentment between us, on so many levels. I am terrified of his rage, so I admit, I am procrastinating on some of the discussions that I know we need to have.

I am also very afraid that if I start to feel sorry for him, I will lose my resolve and end up staying on this fucking sicko merry-go-round a little longer. :mad: I'm trying to get a little stronger, before I really go there.

I have been buying his lies for 13 years now -- he's a really good salesman. The problem is, I have to remember, I am looking for bread at the hardware store...
 
Isn't it funny -- I've given him just about all the ammo he could ever need, right here on this forum, to really manipulate me back..... and he never bothers to come here! :rolleyes:

Maybe that means he will actually let me go without a fight -- ?

Maybe he and Barbie already have it all worked out -- ?

Ah, isn't it pretty to think so?
 
Sundance finally admitted to me that he loves Barbie. That is pretty big, for him! He says what he really wants is to have me, just me, 100%. But only if he'd have a 100% guarantee that we'd be monogamous again.

We're kind of in a chicken-egg thing -- what comes first?

I'll be monogamous but only if YOU will........

Who's going to go first?

Now that the trust has been destroyed, I don't think monogamy OR polyamory is even an issue any more. I just don't see any hope for us, to be a real couple again. :(

Sundance and I have other major issues that we have never dealt with. I think I went with Butch because there was so much lacking in my marriage, and I couldn't figure out how to address them, or accept them, or fix them, or work on them.... so I looked for a temporary escape, from the hopelessness I felt.

I still feel the hopelessness. Maybe his problems are just too much for me to live with. I feel sad about that. Now that we're not intimate with each other, it may take some of the pressure off for awhile, I don't know. I am REALLY confused. So is he!

I don't see how him continuing his relationship with Barbie is going to help our marriage in ANY WAY.

I'm fighting down the bitterness. He says he wants me, and only me, but his actions say the exact opposite! Then I finally get him to admit he loves her, but he still goes back to ACTING like he wants ME, and she doesn't matter at all.

Very confusing mixed messages. :(

I told him let's just be good friends, for now. We'll see how that works. Even friends need to be honest with each other. He said he has lied because he doesn't want to hurt my feelings. I try to see that as a noble motive, rather than to be "sneaky." But if we are just friends, what is there to be sneaky about -- ? Except to leave room for manipulating me and wooing me back, under false pretenses? NO THANKS.
 
Carma said:
He said he has lied because he doesn't want to hurt my feelings. I try to see that as a noble motive, rather than to be "sneaky."
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I will call BULLSHIT on this excuse. This is what my husband always says and I finally learned to call him on it. He lied to avoid an uncomfortable situation that put himself in a bad light. He didn't want the fallout if you got upset, he didn't want to get yelled at, he didn't want to look like the bad guy, etc. It has nothing at all to do with YOUR feelings and everything to do with him. So while it maybe more avoidance than "sneaky" it is NOT about his caring for your feelings.
 
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