Now He's Not Ready

vanille said:
I hope I don't appear meek and passive, or just justifying situations that are wrong.
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Please forgive the crude bluntness, but, yeah. You do. And I don't think you're at fault for it.

From the outside, this looks an awful lot like emotional abuse.

Mind you, this is only based off of your words that I've read, and I am no professional. So don't take my word for it. Just, it looks like you give and give and give, and he's happy to lap it all up, but when it's his turn to give, he feels no obligation to reciprocate. He's not giving back. Sure, he's giving financially, but that doesn't absolve him of treating you as an equal. Sometimes it's hard to see that happening when you feel financially indebted to someone.

Here's what the inside of his head is looking like to me: If he can date other chicks and get hot sex, he benefits. Whether or not you benefit is irrelevant. If you can date other chicks, and he gets to join in, and get even hotter sex, he benefits. Whether or not you benefit is irrelevant. If you date other guys, he does not benefit, and has the detriment of sharing "his" chick with other guys. Whether or not you benefit is irrelevant.

There's so much inequality in all of this that it's a little painful to read.
 
Yup. Wanting X for yourself can be perfectly okay (as long as you're willing to pursue it with patience and kindness and respect). Not wanting your partner to have X can be perfectly okay (if you're willing to consider their needs and try your best to meet them before you say no... again, patience, kindness, respect). But you can't insist on both without acting like a manipulative jerkface. X in this case is outside heterosexual liaisons (for you), in case that wasn't abundantly clear.

This isn't a case of boundaries. This is a case of acting from a place of hypocritical self-interest, imho.

Why is what he wants the only thing that matters here???

Edit: Amended to be very slightly less harsh.
 
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vanille said:
nycindie said:
Is Armani reading this thread? I think it might be good to hear from him on this topic.
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No. And there's nothing too new here. We do talk about everything. I'm sure I didn't paint him in a beautiful light (though I tried my best to defend him).

I do love him and am willing to do what he needs.
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Well, the reason I asked is because it could be beneficial for him to see the situation "in print" and get opinions and feedback other people to whom he is not emotionally attached.

No one here is saying or thinking Armani is a bad guy. At least, I don't think so. He's a member here, and we all know you are both new to poly. But the fact remains that there is some radical inequality and unfairness operating here. Whether it is due to fear, insecurity, a sense of possessiveness and ownership over you, societal conditioning about marriage, or what is proper for a wife or husband to do, he has some shit he needs to own up to (or open his eyes to, if the choices he's making is rooted in stuff that is unconscious) and deal with, because it is affecting both of you.

And he may have a completely different perspective than what you perceive about the whole thing, so I would consider having him come here and read this thread. If you were here saying that you were doing something and people here felt we needed to call you on it, we'd give you the same tough love we have for him. No one is playing favorites, hon. And certainly no one is saying that you need to run right out and fuck someone to even the score and that he should be happy with it. Even if you wait another year before taking a step in the poly direction, this is about finding a way for it to work for both of you.
 
He loves me more than anything. I know he does. He supports me through school, which is a big deal. Before March, we split everything 50/50. We each paid our half when it came to living. Combining our finances (where he had nothing to gain and everything to lose) was a big deal. Me not working at all was a big deal. We don't even believe in social welfare (at least not as expanded as it is right now). Our personal beliefs are that you work hard for what you get. We grew up surrounded by alcoholics who expected handouts. We refuse to live that way.

So the fact that I didn't live up to my bargain is also a big deal. But he loves me and still supports me even when I fail. He's been very patient with me, dealing with my depression and bipolar and utter lack of wanting to do anything some days. All he asks is that I give it my best. Keep the house clean, cook the food, and do my best in school. In exchange, we live a very comfortable life that he worked his butt off to attain.

Aside from finances... I know he loves me. Like I said, he has dealt with my bipolar disorder, and constantly deals with me when I forget to take my medication and am extra moody and lazy. We aren't the same kind of people. I'm a Libra and he's a Leo... not that I strictly follow astrology, but for us, at least, the descriptions are almost spot on. I believe in equality, while he is a born leader. It can be tough to manage.

No relationship is perfect, but I'm in a safe home, protected and loved and provided for. We have open communication, even if we don't always agree. I don't have a lot of experience with relationships, but I'm not sure I could do any better. He is driven, hard working, and is only going to achieve great things. We practice compassion and empathy when we can (though I'm the one who usually has to point out the empathy. hehehe). He doesn't physically abuse me and I really don't think he emotionally abuses me. He just struggles with empathy and consideration sometimes. But don't we all?
 
Armani, I sincerely invite you to come on the thread and tell me why I'm wrong. I'd like to be. But ViableAlternative is right, this is getting painful.
 
vanille said:
What he has wanted since the beginning is a triad or V. Am I perhaps pushing it by wanting to include men, as well?
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NO. It's a reasonable request. And, frankly, I think equality is pretty important in any relationship. Whether or not you can have that in your current relationship does not mean you can't have it, period. There are always other options.

I mean... boundaries are an issue, right? I mean, it's okay for someone to say, "Hey, I'm not cool with that," right?
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Of course. Absolutely. And, Armani is TOTALLY allowed to want a lopsided relationship. You are TOTALLY allowed to want an equal relationship. Those wants might be incompatible, but you're still allowed to want them.
 
I should also say, I think it's PERFECTLY reasonable for him to say he doesn't think he wants or can handle polyamory. What I feel is UNreasonable (to me, in my mind) is for him to want polyamory for HIM, but not you. He's still entitled to want whatever he wants (as are you), but I don't think it's fair of him to expect you to be okay with inequality.

And if he doesn't think he wants polyamory, then why is he still actively looking for girlfriends on dating sites? I don't understand that.
 
vanille said:
What he has wanted since the beginning is a triad or V. Am I perhaps pushing it by wanting to include men, as well?
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Certainly not! Pushing it? You have a right to ask for what would make you happy and satisfied. And the possibility of being with men is what you want. Did he not pay attention when you told him this?
vanille said:
...I'm not even sure if I am sexually attracted to girls.
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Geez, why does it have to revolve around only what he wants? Negotiations are about making sure everyone is satisfied, perhaps with compromises on both sides, but that doesn't mean you have to have sex with someone you don't want to have sex with!
 
I see this as quite simple, what is good for him is good for you. If you both agreed to certain boundaries, then fine. But if he wants to do something, that means you should be good to go on that, too. Anything other than that is not fair. Uneven, unbalanced is not fair in poly. It's all about balance. Even time is balanced.

As to the money thing, when I was pregnant with LB, I worked two jobs while PN was laid off. I was so sick at first and dragged myself to each job. I remember crying all the way to my second job in my last trimester because I was so tired and had to climb up a steep hill to get there.

PN now earns more money than me and is in a position to move up in the world. He has far surpassed me in ten years. It all comes around, and none of it should be held over the other's head. That is just asking to have it held over your head one day... because it does come around!

Yes, he has been good to you by your account, but Vanille, you have been good to him... Balance!
 
vanille said:
He loves me more than anything. I know he does. He supports me through school, which is a big deal. Before March, we split everything 50/50. We paid our half when it came to living. Combining our finances (where he had nothing to gain and everything to lose) was a big deal. Me not working at all was a big deal. Our personal beliefs are that you work hard for what you get. We grew up surrounded by alcoholics who expected handouts. We refuse to live that way.

So the fact that I didn't live up to my bargain is also a big deal. But he loves me and still supports me even when I fail. He's been very patient with me, dealing with my depression and bipolar and utter lack of wanting to do anything some days. All he asks is that I give it my best. Keep the house clean, cook the food, and do my best in school. In exchange, we live a very comfortable life that he worked his butt off to attain.

Aside from finances, I know he loves me. Like I said, he has dealt with my bipolar disorder... I'm a Libra and he's a Leo... the descriptions are almost spot on. I believe in equality, while he is a born leader. It can be tough to manage.

No relationship is perfect, but I'm in a safe home, protected and loved and provided for. We have open communication, even if we don't always agree. I don't have a lot of experience with relationships, but I'm not sure I could do any better. He is driven, hard working, and is only going to achieve great things. We practice compassion and empathy when we can (though I'm the one who usually has to point out the empathy. hehehe). He doesn't physically abuse me and I really don't think he emotionally abuses me. He just struggles with empathy and consideration sometimes. But don't we all?
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That he has worked his butt off to attain a particular standard of living is not only your benefit. He gets to enjoy the fruits, as well. Should anyone here assume he would wish a lower standard of living than he now enjoys if you were not in his life? Please. And what you benefit by it really isn't seen in a healthy light if its looked at as a handout. You're suppose to be his partner in life, and life isn't all about money unless you let it be.

I see these two situations as completely separate. If he feels inequality in the monetary sphere, that needs to be kept in discussions about finances and what things can be done to make things better monetarily. What on Earth does it have to do with affection or intimacy? I make more money so only I get to have intimacy with more people?!? I can't say I'm surprised by this mindset coming from someone who is comfortable with buying other peoples' bodies.
 
Unfortunately, I don't think Vanille will be coming back to this thread with an update nor, perhaps, to this forum (though I hope that's not the case). She PM'd me and, though I won't reveal the contents of her message, let's just say that Armani had a tough time with this discussion. Perhaps some friendly encouragement sent to both of them via PM will help - just a suggestion to anyone who feels like reaching out.
 
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Personally, I want to apologize for my use of the word jerkface. I stand by the substance of my post, but name-calling is never called for, and I regret writing with such a lack of respect, especially when there was not good reason to think that Armani was not, in fact, still trying to be a good, fair, and giving partner.
 
AnnabelMore said:
Personally, I want to apologize for my use of the word jerkface. :/ I stand by the substance of my post, but name-calling is never called for, and I regret writing with such a lack of respect, especially when there was not good reason to think that Armani was not, in fact, still trying to be a good, fair, and giving partner.
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Oh, you seem very sweet! :)

To me though, I try to benefit from the mirror-effect situations like this can offer for personal growth. We don't always see ourselves and our actions the way others do. Sometimes the impression is unwarranted, and other times we don't want the responsibility that comes with how we make others feel, let alone other people knowing we have made them feel that way. When once someone shared a struggle they were having with me caused me to feel defensive over being seen in a poor light by others, it was put to me like this:

"If you don't want people to think you've been being a brat, stop being one and explain yourself!" :D
 
Hm, too bad. It's hard to know what to PM if there is no indication as to why they aren't coming back. It's hard to know what I am asked to apologize for when no one is communicating. I can see how what some of what was said here would be hard to hear, though. That sucks. I can see how it would be hard to want to stick around for more of the same. I am not wanting to convince, but gaining more perspective on this would help. I'd love to know what Armani thinks. It's so hard to gauge what is going on with only bits and pieces. It seems you have it all in hand, anyway, NYCindie. Maybe that is all that is needed.
 
I want to thank everyone for their support and advice.

Edit: Oh. And I'm not leaving the forum. Though out of respect for Armani, I will ask that this thread be deleted. If it can not be deleted, please do not be offended if I do not respond in it. Armani and I are a team. We should have approached this thread as a team.
 
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Vanille, I don't think the Mods delete threads, because it could contain valuable information to help someone else out someday in the future. I believe (but am not totally sure) that you can ask for the thread to be locked to prevent any more posts being added to it.

Glad you're not leaving. But remember, a team has individuals on it, and each person has a right to voice their own views and express their own perspectives. While it's great to have solidarity with your husband, you are two people with two brains and two hearts. You're not joined at the hip. So if Armani gets bent out of shape because you felt the need to express your frustration or find a solution for yourself, perhaps he needs to work on owning his own shit, and question why he doesn't approve of you doing your own soul-searching here. It seems rather selfish and self-centered to me. I am not name-calling. I can be selfish and self-centered, too. But it's something to look at.
 
Yeah, sorry. This thread isn't going to be locked down or deleted, but please feel free to not write on it anymore.

I find it so interesting that when shit hits the fan people want to delete everything. I include myself in that, too. As a mod, I can delete my own posts whenever I want. Believe me, I have been really close to doing that at times. But I don't, because I reckon I wrote it, people wrote about me, I get to sit and be uncomfortable, just like everyone else does on here.

I get that it's a trigger, but maybe in a week or so you can read this again and see if there are any nuggets of information that can be learned from. I find that there is learning in what I get pissed off about. When people hold a mirror up to my face, it's a humbling and frustrating experience. They don't always have the facts, and I don't always have to give them the facts, but outside perspective on how what I do affects people and causes them to see me a certain way can be super useful in determining how I want to portray myself and what I need to work on. Maybe both of you will find that, in time, also.

I agree with NYCindie. You have every right to vent, Vanille, just as he has every right to be pissed off. You are two different people.
 
I'm not asking to have it deleted because I regret what I said. I asked because it hurt another (separate) member on this forum, enough so that he doesn't feel comfortable coming back.

But I respect the decision.
 
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