Weird relationship model?

gwendolenthefair

gwendolenthefair

New member
I just got into some difficulties with a good friend (Jude), who would like to be more to me. My husband Brian and I are friends with both Jude and his wife, JC. The problem came about when Jude started to want more from me than friendship. I like him a lot, and there was definitely a spark, but it turns out that he and I had very different expectations about how we would pursue our relationship, and some frustration and hurt feelings arose out of this.

After one rather nice one-on-one date with him (which I know JC expressly told him to arrange), he kept doing stuff like inviting me out on what I thought was a date for just us, and then, all of a sudden, JC was coming too. So I'd invite Brian. Therefore, my romantic relationship with Jude did not proceed, as I saw it. This grew very frustrating over time, especially because Jude acted like we were dating, and I did not see it that way at all, since I wasn't getting any alone time with him, to speak of.

I just found out some details that illuminated why he was behaving this way. In his previous "poly" relationships outside his marriage, he and his (heterosexual) wife had only gotten involved with women who were already close friends of hers, and his wife was ALWAYS along, whether they were hanging out, going places, or having sex. Both Jude and JC seem to think that he was having serious relationships with these women, not friendships with benefits. I don't see how, if the other women never had alone time with Jude!

Overall, I find dating as a couple reasonable if the situation is a quad or a triad, but it does not compute for me if the situation is a vee.

Has anyone else encountered this, a couple who dates a third person as a couple even though the potential relationship is a vee, not a triad? That's all we could ever be, as I am very straight, and I was told that JC is too. I'm not talking about having some hangout time with her, I'm talking about her being there just about all the time. I have told Jude that I don't do romantic relationships this way, that it's totally unacceptable to me. I am 95 percent sure I only want friendship from him now. It feels like he's killed whatever might have been special between us. I am curious about what others would think about this, though. Has anyone else encountered people like this?
 
Sounds insane to me, on their end. But I'm curious as to his response. When Jude realized that this wasn't what you wanted, was he willing to do things differently, or do they feel JC has to be there for some reason (insecurity on her part, need for a security blanket on his part)?
 
The only reason I could think of (besides what Annabel said) is that maybe JC enjoys the more intimate/emotional connection with women, even if she doesn't enjoy PHYSICALLY being with them.

I agree though, that I wouldn't be able to have a romantic relationship with someone without some alone time. I think even if I were to someday be in a quad/triad, I would want a bit of time to spend with each person individually, every now and then.
 
I had been talking to a guy 2 years ago who does relationships like this. He and his wife had found that everything worked better for them if she were involved, especially in anything physical. It was weird to me. I had another friend who was interested in being more, so I declined the offer to be in a relationship with that man, whose wife would be involved in our relationship.

I'm not interested in dating women, since I'm not sexually interested in them. I'm happy to be friends with women, especially the partners of people that I'm involved with, but to have to agree to allow a partner to be an integral part of my relationship is just odd to me. I don't blame you for finding it weird.
 
AnnabelMore said:
Sounds insane to me, on their end. But I'm curious as to his response. When he realized that this wasn't what you wanted, was he willing to do things differently, or do they feel she has to be there for some reason (insecurity on her part, need for a security blanket on his part)?
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I have known of people who show up on first dates with their partners. I really don't mind if somebody wants to show up with their partner on a first date, but I expect to be told of this ahead of time. Somebody just showing up with their SO without warning me wouldn't be seeing me again.

I also wonder what Jude said. After one or two times of JC being invited, I'd specifically say, "Is JC coming, or is this a date for just us?" If he is to be told you don't consider it dating HIM if it's not just you and him, you could say, "I'm not interested in dating if it's always in a group situation," and expect an answer right then and there.

If he said he didn't date one-on-one, and that wasn't for you, I'd suggest just telling him you were only interested in friendship, then. He can decide if he wants to pursue a relationship with you anyway, and then negotiate with JC to come up with a different dynamic, where they aren't joined at the hip.

Have you even broached the subject of whether this means he expects JC will show up in the bedroom if/when YOUR relationship gets to a sexual stage? That is something I'd really be concerned about bringing up ASAP. If you have zero interest in this, he should know. If you don't have any desire to have nothing but FMF sex where he is the center of the universe, dating him doesn't seem to make any sense.

As to if any of the relationships were serious relationships and not just FWBs, I'd say that was up to the individual involved. Some of them might have been content with that and did feel it fit their definition of that. It doesn't fit my personal criteria for a serious romantic relationship, though.
 
I don`t even see how it is 'friends with benefits' if you get no alone time! None of my FWBs ever tried to keep their spouse in the mix.

There is definitely a control/trust issue at play. To each their own, but I have never worried about 'what' someone is doing, but more so 'how' they do it.

I`ve known spouses/primaries that need to meet an OSO, some that need to converse with an OSO, some right away, some later on. All that is fine. Many times, it can feel quite natural.

There does seem to be a 'creep factor' with some of these, who seem desperate to meet, follow along, and keep an eye on things.

As a friend, I would tell him honestly what puts you off, then let them chew on it awhile, and see if they change for the next person, or at least understand they need to be upfront about how things work for them. I think that is the part that bugs me most. It seems underhanded.
 
It doesn't sound like you'd been talking to Jude very much about what you think a relationship would be. It sounds strange to me! I would have a very hard time dating someone who needed to function that way. But have you talked with him? Is this an "always and forever" thing, or just a "while we both get used to you" thing? You said you know that JC was okay with the first alone date, but have you ever talked with her about it?

I don't know if I'm reading this wrong, but to me, it sounds like you weren't communicating with either of them about your expectations, and they weren't communicating with you. So when you hit the (inevitable) wall, you got angry at him and told him it couldn't possibly work, without ever sitting down and talking about what all three of you need/want from this relationship.

There are many ways to do non-monogamy. It sounds like all three of you were assuming that the way it was in your head would be the way it worked on all sides, and that clearly isn't true. If you like him, I wouldn't suggest giving up until you figure out what their real limitations, boundaries and desires are. Give them a chance to hear you express your thoughts and feelings, and be willing to work with them to find something that works for all of you. Maybe that something doesn't exist, but if you really like someone it's well worth the shot.
 
But have you talked with him? Is this an "always and forever" thing, or just a "while we both get used to you" thing? You said you know that JC was okay with the first alone date, but have you ever talked with her about it?

I actually met my friend Jude and JC in person last spring, after several months of IM friendship with just Jude. I brought Brian along that first time, because I am not comfortable with meeting a couple on my own. I've done it, but do not like the power imbalance in those situations one bit. (All four of us got along well. We continued to socialize as couples.) Jude was deliberately not dating at that point anyway, because of a lot of family obligations. His situation was, "Let's be friends now and maybe someday that can change." I was fine with that, especially since I was pursuing another relationship that I found extremely compelling.

Jude knew these things about me up front:

1. I was absolutely not going to go out on dates with just Jude and JC. If he wanted to bring her, I was going to bring Brian, too.
2. I was absolutely closed to the possibility of having sex with a man and another woman. I WAS open to foursomes with Brian and another couple, in the context of a poly-quad relationship, although since JC is supposedly not interested in partners for herself at present, I considered that option just theoretical where Jude and JC were concerned.

We did NOT discuss how we would proceed otherwise, since, if a three-person relationship was not on the table (and it emphatically was not), I assumed (I think reasonably) that the default would be me dating him on my own, at least most of the time.

In early November, Jude told me that his life had changed enough so that he and JC both felt really good about him pursuing a relationship with me. He and I went out on a one-on-one date. It was literally the first time we'd ever been alone together, and it went well. Jude asked me out on a second date, and I happily accepted.

A day later, Jude told me that JC wanted to come along too, so I shrugged and invited Brian. The four of us had our usual good time together.

Several weeks later, Jude and I got together at a local cafe one-on-one to talk about something that hadn't gone well in our communication. To my surprise, he invited me back to his house that night, saying that JC was away. I had not been told that beforehand. As it turned out, he also wanted to have sex that night. (We'd previously done nothing more than kiss.) I told him that I wasn't nearly ready to get sexual with him, since it was only the second time we'd ever been alone together, so we limited ourselves to clothed kissing and cuddling.

I would have thought me saying, "I'm not ready to sleep with you yet because we haven't spent enough alone time together" would have inspired Jude to make it possible for us to spend alone time together. Instead, a week later, he asked me out on what I thought was a one-on-one date, then told me 45 minutes prior to it that JC (who was supposed to be sick that day) was coming too! I was extremely irritated. I considered not going at all, but then I scrambled to call Brian and see if he could get there as well. AND THEN, Jude and JC canceled at the last minute anyway, saying she didn't have a valid photo ID with her to get into the pub we were supposed to meet at.

This was the last straw. I told him that we needed to just be friends now.

Jude is now saying, "Oh, maybe we DO want a quad. JC is suddenly interested in Brian!" I threw my hands up and told my sweet husband to have a great time dating JC if he wanted to, but that a quad does not feel right to me anymore.

That's where we are at the moment.
 
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What a cluster fuck of miscommunication! There is a lack communication tools. Jude is seemingly not hearing what you're saying, and possibly disrespecting your boundaries. Yeah, I'd throw in the towel... at least for now. Maybe just staying friends would be less confusing. It sounds like you aren't interested anymore, anyway. I wouldn't be either, as lack of good communication skills is a real turn-off for me!
 
If Jude really wants a relationship with you, it has to be either with her along or in a quad... geez! It sure does sound like JC is super insecure and controlling, if she has to be there and have a say in every little thing. Are you friendly enough with her to talk about it and find out? Even though you've pretty much written Jude off as a lover, I'd be curious.

He sounds like someone who thinks that's how poly has to be. Like, he's not even hearing you because what you're saying goes against his ideas of poly. Or he's just whipped. o_O
 
Hmm... JC doesn't seem controlling at all. I think this is more a case of Jude wanting to be poly, but deep down, worried that it's wrong. And he's worried that JC might feel "left out" if he pursues individual relationships. Also, since his past partners all started as JC's good friends, it felt natural to continue including her in whatever he did with them. And since that was the relationship model he was used to, he continued to try to do it with me, even though my friendship was with him first and I really don't know JC very well!

I really hate that this happened. I was just starting to have feelings for him. I hope this doesn't ruin our friendship.
 
Is there a chance you could talk to JC about it, and see if she will encourage (or "insist") Jude date you alone, if he is interested, as she encouraged your first date? If she is fine with it, maybe he needs to hear it clearly from her again that she is okay with it.

If JC knows that you feel weird about the way the dating is going down, that could help change their dynamic for the better. I know that can be a weird conversation to have, but I have found the hardest and weirdest conversations I have had regarding poly relationships with people have often led to the most improvements in the situations I was uncomfortable with.
 
I may try to talk to JC. She is a FB friend. I just have to catch her on there. I do hear that she isn't pleased with me and this situation, so I may wait on that a bit.

I'm starting to feel that Jude may be the dating equivalent of Rain Man. I talked to him last night and again was frustrated. I tried to explain to him that I felt awful for hurting him. But his seeming reluctance to see me alone, while still seeming to think that our relationship was proceeding, made me feel as if he didn't take our relationship, or me, seriously, and that was part of what I had reacted to. He then suggested we talk again in person, and I agreed to that. He wanted to drive over right away (he lives ten minutes from my house), but I nixed that, as I was about to go to bed.

I then pointed out to him that our jobs are 15 minutes apart by car, and having lunch together would be a simple matter. And although I didn't point this out to him, I expected that lunch would HAVE to be one-on-one, since neither of our spouses work nearby.

Jude said, "I almost always have lunch with this particular coworker"!

I was DAMNED if I was going to spell it out AGAIN that I wanted to have lunch with him, and we ended the conversation with nothing planned at all!

I like this guy a lot, but this is just too hard! 😣
 
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gwendolenthefair said:
I like this guy a lot...
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Why? :ROFLMAO:

He's definitely sounding like too much high maintenance. And JC isn't pleased with you? Why not? What's her problem? It would probably be nothing but headaches to get involved with him, so be grateful you're seeing the signs early on. If this were me, I'd steer clear and chalk it up to incompatibility.
 
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He couldn't bail on the coworker for one single lunch? Are you kidding me? WTF?
 
I don't know, AnnabelMore. I didn't ask. I know the coworker is female, but also know that she isn't a potential partner for him, so I would think he could vary his lunch routine a bit, especially since he says he wants to talk to me. WTF, indeed! I am certainly not going to BEG any man to have lunch with me.
 
Yes, "weird relationship model," indeed!
 
Hello gwendolenthefair,

I think it's a little bit weird, but not so weird that it's a bad thing. Jude wanted to invite JC and Brian, you thought it was just going to be you and Jude. Basically, if Jude and JC are involved, you want Brian to be involved as well. I do not fault you for this. It is a complicated situation, now Brian wants to date JC.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
@kdt26417 How did you come to the conclusion that Brian want to date JC? @gwendolenthefair asks Brian along when it’s clear it’s not a date with Jude but transformed into an unplanned ‘social’ with JC tagging along.

Gwendolen, if your still interested in Jude you need to spell it out and state your needs and expectations. If he still doesn’t get it you’re wasting your time as his hinge skills are going to be abysmal. Not that I have a crystal ball, but…
 
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