What if a poly goes REALLY south?

[ForestFloor]

Hi, everyone. I've been lurking for a bit. A lot of the discussions about other's relationships have helped me. However, I feel like my "problems" have enough drama and uniqueness that I'd love your advice.

First of all, my spouse Brody has been rather interested in polyamory for a while, but entered into a monogamous relationship with me about 8 years ago. The IDEA of a poly relationship is something we have discussed before. I am attracted to both men and women, and he is fairly pansexual. It makes for some pretty interesting possibilities. Then, this past year, he reconnected with an old friend (I'll call her Emma), who he felt intense feelings for. They slept together without my permission, which still irks me a bit. He informed me, and then suggested that Emma enter into our relationship.

Okay. That was probably my first mistake. After talking about it first together, and also with Emma for about a month, we agreed to proceed. The "plan" was a typical, well... unicorn idea. Emma would be in a relationship with both of us, since she is also attracted to both men and women, and though her relationship with Brody was more developed, she and I would date and try not to prize one relationship over another.

This went south FAST. Several things soon became clear:

- Emma did not want a romantic relationship with me at ALL.
- She did not want a poly relationship, really. She wanted a mono relationship with Brody, and thought this was the best she could have.
- She was emotionally pretty unstable, going through extreme bouts of rage and depression

Soon, our attempt at polyamory shifted to a dysfunctional poly/mono. I was the mono, as I still loved and had a relationship with Brody, but wanted nothing to do with the bag of drama that I saw Emma as. She CLEARLY wanted nothing to do with me. She had very little respect for his and my relationship. This was very difficult for me.

I love the idea of a polyamorous relationship, but one with people who love and respect the relationship my spouse and I already have, who are truly comfortable with the idea, not just pretending. I became very depressed and hurt myself. As her emotions became more unstable, Brody spent more and more time trying to be a stabilizing force for her. She mentioned being suicidal to him.

I felt myself more and more alone. Finally, after it became clear that the relationship between Emma and Brody was borderline emotionally abusing and hurting him, I gave Brody an ultimatum. "I'm sorry, but this is too much. I either need to leave this situation, or you need to end the romantic relationship with her."

He chose the latter. We celebrated the holidays as a mono relationship. I felt calmer. Great, right? Well, Brody still feels very strongly that the young lady in question is still in his life. She has been a friend for awhile and he does care for her quite a lot. He loves her, even. She has no support in this city, very few friends, and no family. He feels responsible (logically or otherwise) for her current state of emotional instability and just "wants everyone to be happy."

Emma now is trying to get her life in line. She says she realizes the mistakes she has made and is trying to change the things in her that made the relationship so bad.

He is sympathetic to her emotional vulnerability and wants to support her life changes. I am supportive, to a point. Personally, I want nothing to do with her, but I try to support Brody's desire to help/support her and spend some time around her here and there.

Now, here's the rub. She thinks the current situation is hurtful and unfair-- she can tell Brody still cares for her, and she has "learned so much," and is "changing," so she wants there to be a new relationship between them. He just wants everyone to be happy, and right now no one is.

I am so amazingly against this, as in, my reaction is "never in a million years am I inviting that back into my life." Lately, as she has felt more hurt by the situation, and he seems more and more not AGAINST a new relationship with her, I have become more upset, angry, possessive, and depressed. I'm having trust issues. No matter how much he says he'll defer to me on the romantic nature of the relationship, he is feeling like my "possessiveness" and anger with his "former" girlfriend's desire for a new relationship is not "healthy, mature, or advanced." I don't know, insert your own semi-condescending adjective there.

I'm sitting down with Emma tomorrow evening to try and talk about our feelings, but one thing I want to know is: from an outside perspective, how can/should things be fixed or made "better," in your opinions? Is there a best-case scenario that you see? I'm too in the thick of it, I think. ANY suggestions or ideas would be appreciated. Thanks, all. You rock.

 

[NovemberRain]

I do not think you're crazy. You're totally entitled to your feelings. I was hearing Dr. Laura in my head while reading, 'some things cannot be fixed.'

I read in here often, that if you are in a marriage, you need your marriage on stable solid ground before seeing other people. It sounds to me like you've got a big ol' slippery mudpuddle, rather than solid ground.

I'm sure some more experienced folks will chime in. I haven't got any specific advice. I just wanted to say I'm so sorry you're all hurting.

 

[ForestFloor]

If you are in a marriage, you need your marriage on stable solid ground before seeing other people. You've got a big ol' slippery mudpuddle, rather than solid ground.

Thanks for your reply, NovemberRain! Honestly, if you had asked me half a year ago, before this all started, I would have said my marriage was pretty much the most solid thing ever. We've known each other and been partners/best friends for 8 years.

I think that's what makes this all so weird for me. I don't FEEL solid, when I "should." Brody has made it clear he's not going anywhere, that he loves me, that I was right to step in when I did, etc. I should have marble or granite, not a puddle of anything. But yet I'm emoting like things could fall apart at any second, especially if Emma sticks around. I think the chaos of the months we were all in a V just freaked me the fuck out.

I agree that some things can't or shouldn't be fixed. But if 2 of the 3 people want it to be, what kind of Wicked Witch of the West does that make me, you know?

Thanks again. I appreciate it.

 

[Preia]

It really strikes me that Brody is still riding the fence and applying pressure to you. If he had wanted to let you walk, and be with Emma, then he should have put on his big boy pants and done it when you put your foot down. Not placate you, then placate her, then placate you... You see this is just going to keep hurting everyone. It may be time for him to come to the understanding that while he can have other partners, he can't have THAT partner and have you too.

My husband and I both have a list of THOSE partners that we can't have, usually because they are crazy-making for us to be in a relationship with. This ranges from those who actively try to get the hinge partner to themselves, to those who are just too emotionally draining for us to have anything left for ourselves or others.

 

[km34]

I agree that some things can't or shouldn't be fixed. But if 2 of the 3 people want it to be, what kind of witch does that make me?

Does Brody realize that he's making you feel this way by continuing his relationship with her? Whether it is official or not, from what you've presented, it seems like a relationship to me. Like NovemberRain said, your primary relationship has to be healthy and stable before entering into another serious relationship in order to keep everyone satisfied. Men often feel the need to play the hero, though, so he may be so focused on how he is helping her that he doesn't realize what all it is putting you through. He needs to be your hero now and then, too!

Anyway, I don't think it makes you wicked at all. I think it makes you smart. You know how bad it made you feel. You know how bad it was for the people involved. Sure, people CAN change, but that usually takes a really long time, and too often they fall into old patterns when they are put into old situations.

If she has no friends or support in this city, then he should be helping her find some, instead of always stepping in when she needs something. I think that's part of the whole "if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, if you teach a man to fish you feed him for life" kind of thing. He isn't helping her in the long run at all. Maybe suggest that he help her take steps to form other connections/friendships/relationships so that he can gradually step back? Then you're not asking him to abandon her in her time of need, but you are still sticking up for your feelings too.

 

[opalescent]

Maybe you are freaking the fuck out because you sense an actual threat to your marriage? From your description (which I realize is entirely from your viewpoint), Emma appears to be a classic cowgirl, i.e., someone who gets involved in a poly relationship for the purpose of splitting off one of the other partners into a mono relationship with said cowgirl (or cowboy, as the case may be).

It seemed wise to me when you put the kibosh on Brody's sexual/romantic relationship with her. Did you explicitly tell him it wasn't solely because of her instability and drama, but because she wanted him for herself and was thus threatening the marriage? That she doesn't respect his marriage or his spouse? Does he understand that? It wasn't clear in your posts, at least to me. If you haven't had that explicit conversation about this with Brody, do it now.

You don't appear to be against the idea of Brody having other partners, or you yourself having other partners. (I've interpreted your 'poly/mono relationship' comment as you do not currently have another partner, not necessarily that you don't want one, and are mono, but I could have misunderstood this.) You do appear to be against partners who want to, at a minimum, induce drama, cause you to doubt Brody, make him ride to the rescue over and over, and possibly end your marriage. This seems like a very reasonable restriction. Lots of poly folk have some version of 'don't date crazy' in their explicit or implicit guidelines.

That said, people can change, but generally, not very fast. I too would be profoundly skeptical of 'I'm hurting!' 'But I've changed and everything is ok!' Usually change like that, resolving major behavioral and emotional triggers, takes a while and doesn't happen quickly while one is unstable, emotionally or otherwise. There are exceptions, of course, but it's been my experience that this holds true. If Ms. Cowgirl can walk the walk-- maybe be friends only with your husband, show some real respect for you and your marriage, not put her needs and emotions first all the time, then maybe you could reconsider. But if I were in your shoes, I would have to see some real concrete, long-term actions on her part before I would consider any changes in my stance towards her having a sexual/romantic relationship with my hubby.

Can Brody truly be only a supportive friend to Emma? I also would be skeptical here, mainly because he slept with her before talking to you about that possibility, even when he knew that you would likely be open to a poly relationship. He also sounds like a white knight-rescuer type of person, which is great generally. But white knights are often easily manipulated by real or imagined emotional or other vulnerability. Yes, Emma is in a difficult situation. Everyone would like support in such a situation. It's no fun being alone with few friends. But Brody didn't cause that situation. Your and his relationship with her didn't cause her loneliness or lack of friends. And ending the relationship didn't cause her emotional instability.

Perhaps she lacks friends because she is a toxic personality. Given, this is a reach with the very limited information available, but perhaps it should be considered.

If he can just be friends with her, then perhaps cautiously support that. But if he doesn't see the cowgirl thing going on here, or sees it but discounts it, or is too into NRE/White Knight mode to care, then just friends may not be possible for him and for your marriage to survive.

Good luck!

 

[ForestFloor]

Whew! Your responses have really helped me feel less crazy and like my concerns are much more reasonable. I talked with Brody a bit more about it. He personally says he's trying the "teach to fish" method. However, Emma is awfully clingy with him, and he can only do so much.

He also wanted me to mention something I left out of my story, that he has been trying, in his view, to set boundaries with her and make the nature of the new (friendship/support, not romantic) relationship clear to her, and also make it clear(er) that a new romantic relationship is unlikely, at best. But she doesn't want to hear it and says she needs the hope to stay stable.

I do think he's got a bit too much white knight in him and may be being manipulated, though, consciously, on her part, or not.

I'll be talking with her over coffee tomorrow. Hopefully me laying out my view, boundaries, and the situation will help. Who freaking knows? Wish me luck. Thanks, all!

 

[ForestFloor]

Did you explicitly tell Brody it wasn't solely because of her instability and drama, but because she wanted him for herself and was thus threatening the marriage? That she doesn't respect his marriage or his spouse? Does he understand that?

Yes, thus his willingness to (for all intents and purposes) end the romantic side of the relationship. But (bit of detail I left out) Emma moved to our city to be closer to us/for this relationship, and he promised to support her before she did, so he feels responsibility and like he can't be that much of an asshole to completely drop her as a friend. I get that. But, yes, for all of the reasons mentioned, I need to stay firm on my original stance. "Don't date crazy" is a great policy.

You don't appear to be against the idea of Brody having other partners, or you yourself having other partners. I've interpreted your 'poly/mono relationship' comment as you do not currently have another partner, not necessarily that you don't want one and are mono...

No, that's right. Personally, I don't feel a drive to date anyone on my own, separate from he mentioned above. I'm perfectly happy with just my spouse, and don't have much of a wandering eye/otherwise-poly nature. I like the idea of a really-close-friendship-plus-intimacy relationship with another person WITH both of us (male/female/any gender). And it wouldn't have to be exclusive with us, just include mutual care and respect. If that's not in the cards, I'm not really looking for myself. Just to clarify!

 

[Preia]

I would personally say if Emma is that bad off, he needs to remove the hope and replace it with a call to the police and or social services that she has made threats of being a danger to herself.

Sadly, I am speaking from experience. He can't save her. I had to have someone do that for me, actually. I was in Emma's position, and as mad as it made me for them to do it, I did finally get some real help. When I was in college, I was not being treated for my clinical depression. I was trying to use relationships as crutches. However, no one can save you, and they couldn't save me either. Finally, my lover left under no uncertain terms. I had to have them back... I just had to... And in my depressed and untreated state, I made a few threats to my health. I just knew they would come running. Well, someone did... The police showed up and I did a 72-hour hold. It got me the help I really needed, though. Sometimes, even white knights have to realize that they cannot wear the armor and save a drowning maiden. Everyone will drown.

Let her stand on her own two feet. Tough love is still love and sometimes the best love you can give someone. If she threatens to hurt herself, do not go running. Report it to the police. They can get her the help she needs. If she decides to not get help after that, at least she knows that she needs to stand on her own feet.

 

[idealist]

Wow. Good luck with your meeting with her!

Has Brody exhibited any of the "white night" behavior before, in the 8 years you've been together? Sounds like "rescuer" behavior.

In your explanation of the situation, I can see that the most common triangle pattern is:
her- victim
him- rescuer
you-perpetrator

The reason you have to become the perpetrator is because that's how the triangle works.

Then when you put your foot down, it shifted to:
her-perpetrator
him-victim
you- rescuer

Now- with you going to talk to her, there is a possible inevitable shift of:
her-victim
him- perpetrator
you- rescuer

Anyone caught in this type of triangle might want to do some reading about it. There is a pretty good simple book called The Power of Ted and it takes a new spin on the Victim, Rescuer, Perpetrator triangle phenomenon, transforming them into Creator, Coach, Challenger, respectively.

Again, good luck.

 

[AnnabelMore]

You are doing exactly the right thing by trying to distance yourself and your marriage from this woman. This essay speaks to me of your attempts to do the healthy thing here and Brody's problem in not being able to do so: http://libidablog.com/how-to-avoid-problem-people/2011/

He can't save her, and allowing her to cultivate a false belief that he will be in a position to date her again isn't helping; it's enabling. There's a very important distinction/ Does he get the difference? She needs to find her own ways to be strong, not build her emotional strength on a foundation of sand, i.e., misplaced hope.

So, Emma feels the situation is "hurtful and unfair." Yes, being dumped hurts. And no, life is not fair. But she's not owed a shot at your husband just because she's into him and is willing to claim whatever changes it takes to get back into a relationship with him. Nor just because he feels sympathy and affection for her, under which he's allowing her to manipulate him in unhealthy ways.

This is all sooo messed up! If I were in your position I'd be feeling insecure in my marriage too, inasmuch as I'd be shocked by my husband's series of poor judgement calls -- sleeping with her without talking to you about it first (wtf?), keeping the relationship going even when it became clear she was a cowgirl (what person who prioritized their marriage and had good sense would keep someone close who would love to see it destroyed??), and now refusing to cut ties, even though it should be clear at this point that it would be better for ALL involved to do so.

I'm not sure what there is to gain in you talking to her. She's not a reasonable person, so what fruitful outcome could there be?

 

[Phy]

Some thoughts on your situation:

[...]However, she is awfully clingy to him and he can only do so much. [...] he has been trying, in his view, to set boundaries with her and make the nature of the new (friendship/support, not romantic) relationship clear to her and also make it clear(er) that a new romantic relationship is unlikely at best, but she doesn't want to hear it and says she needs the hope to stay stable.

I do think he's got a bit too much white knight in him and may be being manipulated, though, consciously on her part, or not.

[...] she moved to our city to be closer to us/for this relationship, and he promised to support her before she did, so he feels responsibility and like he can't be that much of an asshole to completely drop her as a friend.

She is showing codependency issues all over the place. The first thing, it seems, for her to do is to get a grip on her life. She will be the source for problems as long as she isn't able to support herself, constantly relying on others to manage her life for her.

You have done the only right thing, from my point of view. As long as she hasn't proven that she is able to respect your marriage, acknowledges you as a solid part of his life, and your feelings for each other, I wouldn't tolerate her in my direct surroundings as well. No one needs a cowgirl in a poly relationship structure.

And I would start to address my partner with some basic wishes, as well. He entered into this relationship the worst possible way. It takes time to heal from being cheated on. It's valid that he wants all his loves to feel 'happy,' but he has to commit to your feelings, as well. He has to see that Emma's behaviour will not change when Brody starts to solve her problems for her. She has to do this herself for the process to be long-lasting. And there is obviously still some untreated damage from the start of things and the latest episode between the three of you. He should start by fixing those, not creating new problems in an already established way by inviting her back into your lives.

I think the chaos of the months we were all in a V just freaked me the fuck out.

I agree that some things can't or shouldn't be fixed... but if 2 of the 3 people want it to be, what kind of Wicked Witch of the West does that make me?

This isn't a matter of democracy. Poly relationships don't function properly if one is unhappy, just like mono relationships don't work when one partner isn't stable and satisfied with it. That's not how you will be able to pull it off. You don't have to lock her out of your life, or better, his life completely, but set some clear boundaries about what you are comfortable with and what not. And make sure that they understand that you need time to stomach all that went wrong during your last mutual attempt. They should need the time, as well, to sort it out.

 

[BlackUnicorn]

Ahem, how exactly does cheating and then trying to make it all go away by turning it into a triad constitute a solid relationship? The initial mistake was him cheating, something you guys probably would have needed a lot more than a month to get over. Frankly, him saying he will be unlikely to get involved with her again sounds like he is continuing the relationship and waiting for you to give in on this issue.

 

[Vinccenzo]

Is there any possibility for you to be what Brody claims he is trying to be for Emma? I don't mean sexually, but the friendly support she needs, but can't utilize when it is him for the romantic angle.

I experienced this dynamic early in my own relationship. I'd met someone fresh from a break-up with a troubled ex-partner. He still cared for her and wanted to be a supportive friend for her struggles, but it was the very fact that they had been involved that she couldn't take his support and not want to be in a relationship with him. So I tried to be there for her myself.

In the end, it didn't work. She couldn't let me help her, either. She acted out in one last desperate move to be with him. It made him realize the only way he could help her was to make her stand on her own, and trying to help any other way was keeping her unstable. He saw that if he couldn't fix it, and I couldn't fix it, there was just no room for her if he wanted a life with me.

But had she been able to see me as a real friend, we could have learned to care for each other, and who knows where that would have led?

Do you have it in you to give that a genuine shot? Because if you cannot, there is nothing in it for you to relent your opposition to Emma as a possible other partner to Brody.

 

[ForestFloor]

Okay, I feel the need to give Brody a SLIGHT defense. The sleeping with her without talking to me, in my humble opinion, WAS a violation of trust, but not on a level it might be with many relationships. When he told me, I didn't get upset or start crying. I did respond with some anger-- "Excuse me, where did you get the impression from our poly discussions that this was okay?" Honestly, I kind of expected he might end up sleeping with someone that month. Never did I give him permission and he certainly never had the impression that I would approve (he was terrified when he told me), but I was still kind of prepared for it.

For context, I love him with all my heart, but he's definitely a "dreamer," and I think got caught up in the fantasy of it all. He was on a post-depression soul-searching trip of sorts, driving up and down the coast, visiting old friends, visiting temples and obscure coastlines, etc. The girl in question he met up with again (earlier high school friendship) in San Francisco... and she's quite the dreamer, as well. She's been living in a yoga center for years and felt this really "psychic" energy between them, so she asked to go on to the next few city stops with him and then take the train back. It just "felt right," like "where they needed to be." (Insert my rolling of eyes here.)

I guess my point is that I totally agree that the cheating was not okay, and really, really, really stupid. But what was also stupid was for me to get caught up in this and actually agree to try a relationship with someone he slept with ahead of time. Sigh... I guess as someone who lives in a world of books and stories and logic (i.e., me) the whole "light and life" aspect of their interaction (and the promise that we would all feel that together- kumbaya m'lord) was very appealing for me.

So... yeah. He's a dumbass for getting caught up and cheating. I'm a dumbass for agreeing to begin/be involved in this relationship and getting caught up in a similar feeling. She's a dumbass for thinking that this relationship would be at all positive if she had such strong, singular feelings for him. Excuse me while I go buy three dunce caps...

Vinccenzo, as for the "friend support," I don't know. Honestly, I'm far more hurt and angry with Emma than I ever was or am with Brody. I have found her far more directly manipulative, and I have a lot of resentment over interactions which were just between her and me. I have two lovely memories of her screaming at me hysterically and with a lot of in-the-moment hatred.

What you mention is what Brody wants. I'll have a clearer picture if that's even remotely possible after coffee today. If she's more open to what I have to say than to what my guy has said, then maybe. I have my doubts, though. I think she may just hate me more for being clear in my "No way, Jose" line on her getting back together more officially with Brody.

*facepalm* Thanks again, all. I have the Ted book on my to-do list and a lot to think over.

 

[polyq4]

Okay, I feel the need to give Brody a SLIGHT defense. Sleeping with her without talking to me, in my humble opinion, WAS a violation of trust, but not on a level it might be with many relationships. When he told me, I didn't get upset or start crying. I did respond with some anger-- "Excuse me, where did you get the impression from our poly discussions that this was okay?" Honestly, I kind of expected he might end up sleeping with someone that month. Never did I give him permission, and he certainly never had the impression that I would approve (he was terrified when he told me), but I was still kind of prepared for it.

Okay, I think one of the issues is 'permission.' Is he 5? Does he always need your permission? Maybe some boundaries are in place, but giving permission is counter to the teachings of poly. You can say things like, "If you do this, it will make me feel uncomfortable," or whatever you are feeling, but permission dictates a certain level of control. He is his own person, and so are you.

Don't get me wrong, cheating is also against the ideas poly brings.

 

[opalescent]

One of the issues is 'permission'. Is he 5? Does he always need your permission? Maybe some boundaries are in place, but giving permission is counter to the teachings of poly. You can say things like. "If you do this, it will make me feel uncomfortable," or whatever you are feeling, but permission dictates a certain level of control.

Giving or getting permissions is not part of how you and your partners manage your poly relationships. That's a good thing to know about oneself and how one 'does' relationships. But giving/getting permissions might really work for other people who also consider themselves poly. It depends greatly on agreements and how folks structure (or not) their relationships. Some folks have very explicit rules, some have definite hierarchies, some have general understandings, others talk about every little thing. Some go with the flow, abhor hierarchies and generally refuse to have explicit boundaries or rules.

I dislike very much DADT or OPP agreements. They ick me out and I have difficulty imagining a scenario where I would ever agree to such a thing. But sometimes they work for people in positive ways. So I have, reluctantly, decided that I think they have a place in ethical non-monogamy, and even poly, despite my squick factor.

Permissions don't work for many, but others find that way of managing conflict useful and positive. It's not how you do poly, but others do.

 

[ForestFloor]

Ah, a quick point of clarification, maybe. We hadn't even finished a discussion on being poly when this happened. We had just started the, "So, what do you think?" discussions.

He is VERY much about the way you think of it, polyq4 --

"If you do this, it will make me feel uncomfortable," or whatever you are feeling, but permission dictates a certain level of control.

I actually do feel that, if we say that we won't do X, Y, or Z without checking to see that each of us is comfortable and okay first, that that is a level of "permission." "I won't do this if it hurts you, so I want to make sure it won't hurt you." Maybe it's the connotation and not the denotation, but that's how I see it. Either way, discussion wasn't had.

Thanks, though. I think it's good that I was called out on that.

 

[BlackUnicorn]

I feel the need to give Brody a SLIGHT defense.

Yup, sorry, this cowherder stuff just triggers me. I shouldn't have posted when I knew something was annoying the heck out of me.

Honestly, I'm far more hurt and angry with Emma than I ever was or am with him. I have found her far more directly manipulative. I have a LOT of resentment over interactions which were just between her and me.

If she is stressing you out, the last resort I can think of is to erase her from your life completely. Cut off all contacts online and IRL, and request Brody not talk about her or communicate with her while the two of you are together. I know people who have saved numbers on their phone and the contact info says "Don't answer." If you feel she is bringing nothing positive to your life, then ultimately you should leave it to him to deal with her alone.

What YOU mention is what Brody wants. I'll have a clearer picture if that's even remotely possible after coffee today...

I'll be tuning in for the post-coffee post.

I think she may just hate me more for being clear in my "No way, Jose" line on her getting back together more officially with Brody.

But Brody has said "maybe," hasn't he? To get into my trigger mode for a while: cheating with her on you is all the cowgirl encouragement she ever needed. Not dropping her the minute she confessed to wanting him all for herself was another heap of encouragement, and saying they might get together again if she starts getting better is just persisting in feeding her little tidbits from the table. While Brody may think he's doing her a favour, it sounds very cruel, to me, to keep her hanging on like that. Cutting her loose would be the humane thing to do, if that is what he really wants.

 

[ForestFloor]

... tuning in for the post-coffee post.

Ha, okay, I wasn't sure if I was going to write one, because it was SO weird, but how can I not after that smiley-face? (Sorry about the triggering, BlackUnicorn!)

For anyone who wants to know the weird next step in this drama-saga, after work yesterday I went to a nearby coffee shop to meet with the cowgirl. She and I both admitted nervousness. She was shaking like a leaf and looked really scared. I was calm on the outside, but feeling like my skin was about to crawl off.

But then we started talking, and it was so easy. The conversation lasted 3 and a half hours. I made it clear that I had a lot of hurt and fear about how things went, and no matter how she SAID that she had gone through a lot of change in the past month, I couldn't believe it without data, and that would take time. I also acknowledged that things between Brody and I are, for lack of a better word, a bit broken right now. There's some instability there that terrifies me, and we still have a lot of healing to do.

So, even if Emma feels that the current situation is "unfair" to her, and I acknowledged that I'd feel the same way, that didn't change my feelings, and the fact that the amount of contact she was currently having with him made me very uncomfortable, and seemed irreconcilable with the fact that she felt she didn't have "enough" time with him.

As she explained her perspective, and her connection with him, and how she was feeling, I felt myself soften. I wasn't mad or nervous. I was reminded that she was a beautiful person, and potentially full of light, and why did I want to stand in the way of their relationship again? I mean, he and I had stuff to work out, but when that was over I could at least be more open and less crazy. I started to feel like the anger I had toward her was really misplaced fear, and that it ALL stemmed from trust issues with Brody. After all, why would I be nervous about her if I fully trusted him? He proved he couldn't be trusted with her, with the whole cheating thing, and the amount of time/how he spent time with her. Yep, his fault. Totally his fault.

So, after it came close to 4 hours, I went home. I told Brody that we needed a serious talk. I explained that it went wonderfully and horribly; that I saw her as a whole, wonderful human being again, but that it brought up issues between the two of us (Brody and me) based on trust. He listened carefully and calmly. When I brought up my fear and trust issues, he asked me a few questions about what had changed. The more questions he asked--not hard questions, but basic clarification ones--I started thinking, "Wait a minute... this isn't how I feel at all. What the hell?"

When I started getting a look of real confusion on my face and started to explain my confusion, he sighed and half-smiled sadly. "Yeah," he said. "That's kind of what she does. Kind of understand my problem now?" (Just last week, when I was semi-angrily laying down why the relationship was so toxic, he had sobbed into my shoulder, "Why don't I see it when I'm with her?") Oh. Damn. Yeah.

Remember my original post where I said she was manipulative and the relationship with my husband was semi-abusive? Well, the good ol' boy pulls up this document on abusive relationships and starts pointing out to me what he's been going through. I realize that, while I don't think she did it consciously, she sucked me in using the EXACT same tactics she uses to manipulate him. He showed me some texts from JUST that day (about 16 from her within the space of a couple hours, I think?) and I saw the patterns again, not to mention how NOT healed she was. I saw signs of the original pattern continuing.

So, wow, then I was PISSED, I'm not sure with whom or what, just with the situation, and how I had somehow ended up emotionally compromising on my "No way, Jose" position. Not completely verbally, but certainly (at the time of coffee) emotionally. So, I confronted Brody and asked, "WHY, dear God why, if you fully-- with eyes wide open-- see that this is an abusive relationship, and that it's hurting us, why you want to save ANY of his relationship with her?"

What he described was classic "wishful thinking" abusive relationship pattern. (Two months ago, a friend of mine--actually the one who convinced me to put my foot down--described this for me, as one who had been in a 6-year abusive relationship). He explained his pattern with her, how and when he felt coerced, when it was "good" and gave him hope.

We ended the night in a state of uncertainty. I feel a kinship with BlackUnicorn's stance: End. Now. Under no uncertain terms.

He... is confused. He knows he should end it, he knows what's wrong. But things COULD be "so good." (I sent him the link AnnabelMore posted and highlighted the Wishful Thinking section, and how "Hoping that someone will treat you better in the future won’t make it happen, nor will hoping that the other person will change. Realistic people assume that people are most likely to do in the future what they do now.")

So, one more crazy "date"... He's talking with her today, armed with a written out and prepared list of behaviors and concerns. Then I'm joining and ALL of us are going to talk (unless, he says, there's no need to, because he's already ended it totally). I think he NEEDS to end it, but I also don't know how to "force" him to do that. All I can do is say what I'm okay with (a distant friendship with her while we heal, though even that I'm concerned with), and what I'm not (a romantic relationship with her, or a "too close" friendship that may as well be a romantic relationship).

*headdesk headdesk headdesk* Okay, I'm at a wall. Short version: coffee sucked in a way I didn't expect/plan for. Any more advice for this crazy situation? Besides just "Get the hell out of this drama"? (You know, the logical answer, ha...)

Did I mention you all rock? Because you do. Peace.