Dealing with my wife's feelings of self-entilement???

A

amuk

New member
I am having real trouble dealing with my wife's feelings of self-entitlement, and all that "the universe provides" her. My problems stem from the difficulty for her to see how much more I have to work to get the things I want and "need" out of life.

I've gone about this problem in the wrong way for quite a while by trying to explain how I see the difference between what I need to do to get X and what I see she needs to do to get X. By doing so, I was in hopes that she'd see things from my side, and show appreciation for all the work I do, and have done, for many of the same things that she, in my mind, takes for granted because those things have been handed to her.

Now, I'm trying to make the change in myself do my best to accept her more for who she is, and how she sees the world, instead of trying to change how she sees the world. I know others have felt the way I do and am interested to find how they worked through their own issues to be more at peace with the way their partner is in this respect.

Now comes some background and examples. First off, she's a sexy/attractive woman who has had 100+ sexual partners and she cannot think of a single time she offered herself sexually and was refused (except for one recent time where she offered herself to her current boyfriend and he refused because he respected her and my relationship and knew that I was not yet comfortable with her having sex with anyone other than me). Though I feel I'm a sexy/attractive guy, most of my sexual advances have been turned down.

In her life, she's had plenty of men buy her things and give her money, either directly in exchange for sex, or in hopes of "buying" her off to have sex with them. In her past she saw little wrong with this, probably related to being sexually abused by her grandfather, boyfriends of her mother, and other various men. There were also the years she was a meth addict, which is a drug she's completely avoided for close to 8 years.

Some current examples that I'm particularly envious follow. She has a psychologist that she began to see a few years ago when we had health insurance that covered that cost who continues to see her for free, because he enjoys the sessions they have. If I want to see a councilor or psychologist now for help I would have to pay fully out of pocket. This is currently unaffordable since we are both unemployed students. I quit my job about a year ago when I began nursing school. I will be graduating as an RN in Spring 2013.

Her boyfriend, and other guy friends of hers (even a couple of the gay friends she has) will take her out to the bar and buy her drinks, or take her out to restaurants and pay for her food. If I come along, I'm expected to pay for myself and her out of my personal spending money, which is rather scant (which currently comes from student loans and what work I do on breaks from school).

On my spring break, I worked almost every day to make money to cover bills and the mortgage that was due before our next financial aid disbursement. I told her that I'd appreciate if she used that time while I was off working to get some of the various housework things done that we were way behind on. She maybe spent an hour a day doing that, and then would sit and do things like play video games, even when I had come home from 8 hours of work (labor as an arborist's assistant) and began doing housework immediately after getting home.

When the car was in the shop for a couple of weeks, she could call up her boyfriend and he'd be happy to give her a ride at just about any time. He's loaned her money for things like the fencing lessons that they take together, when I'm having to put groceries on a credit card because there is no money left in the bank.

If I go on much more I'm just going to nitpick and ramble. I think I deserve better, and the best thing I could do for myself would be to end this marriage, but at this moment I'd like to focus on ways I might be better able to accept things as they are. I know the less I focus on the negatives in my marriage, the more likely I will find someone else for myself to have a crush on, fall in love with, and/or be able to go out on fun dates with.

Thanks for reading,
Jason
 
It is deeply annoying when people don't see their privilege. But would you want her to not act on it?

I live in a triad. Two of us are grad students. We are super tight on cash all the time. When other partners come in to play there can sometimes be resentment about opportunities that one partner has that the other one or two do not. But that doesn't mean I don't want them to pass on things that are offered. It also means I want them to understand that it's not something I can easily access.

For instance, my boyfriend was offered a free ticket to Burning Man, which is something that the three of us have done together for years. This year it doesn't look like we can afford it, but he has a free ticket. Am I jealous that he was offered it? Yes. Do I want him to turn it down so all three of us can't do the thing we want? Not at all.

My girlfriend is spending the summer in Europe, traveling from conference to conference funded by her school. Am I jealous that I can't afford to do that? Yes, very much. Do I resent her for taking an opportunity handed to her? No! I don't want her to NOT do something just because I can't.

My hopes are that my partners support me when I get a chance to do something they can't. And right now it might feel a little unbalanced, but that's life. Concentrating on things being equal gets you nowhere. I want them to be happy and that means I don't want to guilt them into not doing things that they want simply because I can't.

On the other side, I feel like it's completely acceptable to ask for support when things don't feel "fair."

Are there things she could be doing that would help you feel better taken care of? Have you expressed those things?
 
Have you looked at "the five love languages" book? It could be really useful in determining what your love style is and what hers is. It sounds like you really need her to do some stuff to feel as if you are loved, and she needs stuff to feel loved. You aren't able to give her what others can and she doesn't seem willing or able to do stuff so you feel loved. So what do you do about it? Well, acknowledging that might help. Perhaps having a look at the book will create an opportunity to talk about it more. Then at least you can strategize about ways that you can get your needs met and so can she.

My red flags here are the "free" therapy, and the sex she gives out for handouts. This does not sound healthy or sane. This woman might be the hottest thing on the planet, but giving oneself for money is damaging to the self esteem and not a way to be loved that is healthy. Lots of work to do there. I wouldn't at all be surprised if that is the root of the issues. She needs a therapist that is not willing to just give her what she wants. That is really fucked up, if you ask me. Something's going on there, I think.
 
redpepper said:
Have you looked at "the five love languages" book? It could be really useful in determining what your love style is and what hers is. It sounds like you really need her to do some stuff to feel as if you are loved, and she needs stuff to feel loved. You aren't able to give her what others can and she doesn't seem willing or able to do stuff so you feel loved. So what do you do about it? Well, acknowledging that might help. Perhaps having a look at the book will create an opportunity to talk about it more. Then at least you can strategize about ways that you can get your needs met and so can she.
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The love languages book is awesome, but since you mentioned you are a bit cash strapped at the moment, you can also visit the website and take the assessments there. You don't get as much information on using the results in your life, but it at least gets you the basics. And it's free. Then when you have the money, you can invest in the book to get the full experience. :)

My red flags here are the "free" therapy and the sex she gives out for hand outs. This does not sound healthy or sane. This woman might be the hottest thing on the planet, but giving oneself for free is damaging to the self esteem and not a way to be loved that is healthy... lots of work to do there and I wouldn't at all be surprised if that is the root of the issues... she needs a therapist that is not willing to just give her what she wants. That is really fucked up if you ask me. Something going on there I think.
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I second this. Also, I'm not well versed in the legal/ethical guidelines for psychologists, but I'm fairly certain that if anything other than actual therapy/counseling is going on, he could face serious consequences.
 
Hi Jason,

As the others are kind of indicating, what you probably need here is to figure out some specifics in terms of what she can do to help you get more of your needs met. As you said, what you've been trying to do is to alter her perception of things, but that hasn't worked very well. Let me ask this: If her perception did change (in the way you wanted it to change), how do you believe that would affect her actions?

When you know the answer to that question, you may have some ideas of what to ask her to *do* that would be helpful toward you being able to feel more accepting of the situation.

It sounds like you are in for some stressful times, regardless of what happens with your relationship, due to how tight the financial situation is. Even if you were on your own, then you'd just be dealing with the alone-ness as well as the struggle to make ends meet.

Do you ever worry that you might be enabling her in some way? What about the possibility of her getting a job, have you asked her about that?

As far as work around the house goes, I guess you should, first, decide how important that issue is (that is, is it a dealbreaker), and second, put your foot down in proportion to the importance of the issue to you. That is, it might not suffice for you to tell her you'd appreciate it if she'd do some housework things while you were off working. You might have to say something more like, "Look, I want you to (x) and (y) while I'm away. Can I count on those things being done when I get back?" What you may want, emotionally, is for her to just see things from your point of view, since then she'd help out around the house more without you asking (or insisting). But since she seems to be pretty thoroughly set in her view, you may have to settle for telling her outright what specific things you expect her to do. If she's at least willing to cooperate with direct orders, that may mean she's not totally indifferent toward you. But I'm just seeing that she might need more explicit instructions here.

It sounds like there may be a bit of a maturity issue on her part. That may improve over time as she gets older (and wiser), but maturity is a slow and painstaking process (and in her case, it may take her extra long to mature). So yes, you may need to be able to say, "Okay, so she's not very mature, and doesn't have an appreciation of the amount of work that I do. What good qualities does she have that attracted me to her in the first place?" Then, try to capitalize on those good qualities (and be appreciative of them).

Hopefully you guys can get to a point where you're really communicating (sharing) with each other, and not just arguing about things. Let us know how things are going, or of whatever we may be able to say that could help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
faraday said:
Are there things she could be doing that would help you feel better taken care of? Have you expressed those things?
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I'm kind of scared to ask for her to do things for me at this point, because historically, if she does something for me that I asked for, afterwards she often feels further entitled and says something along the lines of "Now that I've done X for you, you should let me (or be okay with me) doing Y."

For example, I've gotten frustrated with her going out with friends with plans to get drunk and not come back until daylight the next morning. Why do I feel such? Alcohol used to be a much more serious issue for her (prior to our relationship being drunk for days/weeks) and presented troubles in our relationship when it came to me trusting her.

Like the time we were living monogamously and she got drunk and cheating on me with a guy, lying to him, saying it was okay with me. On that occasion she was hungover for days, and then told me what happened.

Then there were all the times that she'd go out, saying she'd be home at whatever time at night, and she wouldn't be back until the next day, without ever contacting me through the night.

Or the time on my birthday she went out for a beer with a friend at 4:00 pm, and I didn't find her until the next day, over at a friend's house, high on ecstasy in the early afternoon.

A point came where I followed some excellent advice my councilor gave me to no longer participate in her drinking at all. A few months later, she came to the realization that she couldn't drink in moderation and decided to quit. That lasted almost two years.

Within those two years we got married. Then came what I now realize was a huge error on my part. I had never had any personal issues with alcohol abuse and had read how many people who were not full-on alcoholics, but more of binge drinkers could, after a year or two break from drinking at all, could then handle occasional social drinking (like a beer or glass of wine with friends). I introduced that idea and we discussed the prospect over a course of months.

And then for months all was fine, until she met a gay male friend that desperately wanted a friend to go out to "the club" and get drunk with him. Suddenly agreements to be back at 2:00 am became not coming home till 5:00 am, and bitchy drunk texts being sent to me when I asked where she was, or what she was doing an hour past when she agreed to be home.

I suddenly became the controlling asshole in the situation, because I'd cringe when she talked of how much she was looking forward to or how much she deserved a night out to get drunk.

Ok, back to the example I began above. At the end of the winter quarter, she was saying how she deserved a night out with her gay friend and his group of friends that had become hers too. By "night out" she meant to get drunk and not come back till late the next morning. I told her how uncomfortable I felt about that whole situation and proposed how she might help me feel better about it if she made an agreement with me to not drink for a period of time that she feels is realistic for her.

We had recently worked through some serious issues I was having over her making agreements which she later didn't keep, and then telling me when she made the agreement that she was either not being realistic about what she could stick to, or in order to appease me in the moment was consciously agreeing to something she had no intention of sticking to.

So this time she agreed to not drink for eight weeks. So now, two weeks through those eight, she is continuing to stick to the agreement and also not using the agreement against me. (I.e., "I'm only not drinking because you want me to, because you are a controlling asshole.") However, I fear the ninth week, when I'm likely to hear that because she fulfilled this agreement I should have no problem with her getting drunk with her friends and coming back whenever she feels like it.

redpepper said:
My red flags here are the "free" therapy and the sex she gives out for handouts. This does not sound healthy or sane. Lots of work to do there. I wouldn't at all be surprised if that is the root of the issues. She needs a therapist that is not willing to just give her what she wants. That is really fucked up, if you ask me. Something is going on there, I think.
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To be clear, the sex for hand-outs is a thing of the past. The hand-outs in hopes of potential sex probably still exists, to a much smaller degree than in her past, but I don't know of particular examples. As far as the free therapy goes, I'm reasonably confident it is just that. He's on the verge of retirement, and was rather particular about whom he took on as clients, and now I don't believe he is taking on any new clients. I truly think he wants to see her be the best person she can be, and enjoys helping her work through the crap of her life that she needs to work through.

They both share Buddhist philosophies. She says he's really good at "calling her out on her shit." For example, once she went to him after smoking pot earlier in the day, and he told her to never come to his office again high, because he was not going to work with someone that wasn't committed to being completely present while at his office.
 
amuk said:
I think I deserve better, and the best thing I could do for myself is end this marriage.
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That's the best thing you've said all thread. The only way open relationships work is:
If the girl is bisexual and bringing you in partners
If you're bisexual and prefer to be with men
If you like being your wife`s cuckold/submissive
 
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feelyunicorn said:
Best thing you`ve said all thread. The only way open relationships work is:
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feelyunicorn said:
if the girl is bisexual and is bringing you in partners
if you`re bisexual and prefer to be with men
if you like to be your wife`s cuckold/submissive
Click to expand...

She's not bisexual. She's says she'd be turned on to sit in the closet and peek in while I'm with another woman, but she has no interest in helping me find that woman.

I'm not bisexual, but I have stated I'd be willing to try participating in a threesome with her and another guy. I've stated that it very well may help me more comfortable with her having sex with other guys if I felt that the whole experience was something that she and I shared together, and that it would be an opportunity for me to see that she can really stick to agreed parameters when with another guy.

She has repeatedly stated she has no interest in that kind of experience. The reason she always gave me was that she would be too embarrassed to be naked/sexual with two guys at once, even though she has before, in her past, but that was back on her drug-using days. It is only recently that she opened up to me that it's that she feels she can be different, freer, with someone else, and me being there would ruin that experience for her.
 
feelyunicorn said:
The only way open relationships work is:
Click to expand...

feelyunicorn said:
if the girl is bisexual and is bringing you in partners.
if you're bisexual and prefer to be with men.
if you like to be your wife`s cuckold/submissive.
Click to expand...

I won't go all out on this, because I guess my sarcasm radar is way off. So tell me that this is a joke. Please.
 
Two words: Al-anon.

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

You were quite right to not participate and leave her to the conclusion on her own. I'm sorry you didn't realize that two years sober wasn't nearly enough; and more sorry you didn't realize most alcoholics cannot drink socially.

If she can't keep an agreement about what time to come home, what makes you think she can keep any agreements or boundaries you make about sex with other men?

My heart aches for both of you.
 
feelyunicorn said:
Best thing you`ve said all thread. The only way open relationships work is
Click to expand...

feelyunicorn said:
if the girl is bisexual and is bringing you in partners.

if you`re bisexual and prefer to be with men.

if you like to be your wife`s cuckold/submissive.
Click to expand...

Though I do sense some sarcasm, I also can see some truth in the statement, especially when the man plays the patriarchal part, in the sense that he is the primary source of income, sole manager of the finances and household paperwork, payer of bills, provider of house and car, has all the debt in his name, handles most family "emergencies" (plumbing, appliances going awry, car needing repair, daycare falling through, medical bills, wife's computer dying during finals), does most of the household shopping, is the only driver, and responsible for the yardwork and maintenance of the house.

I'm doing all of that, while also working myself through nursing school, so I can be a stable source of income to support the family into the future.

Sometimes, for all I do, I feel like I deserve that my wife bring a harem of girls home to me on occasion, not that I have ever said so, or even really felt that way. What is more true, is that I feel I deserve my wife to be my harem (at least sometimes, when I have the time), like she was before she knew she had me as her own, when she was being the person she wants to now be to other men. At least, this is what I think she means when she says she want to feel like she's "free to be whoever she wants to be" with another man, and how if I were involved, she couldn't experience that freedom.
 
NovemberRain said:
Two words: Al-anon.

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

You were quite right to not participate and leave her to the conclusion on her own. I'm sorry you didn't realize that two years sober wasn't nearly enough; and more sorry you didn't realize most alcoholics cannot drink socially.

If she can't keep an agreement about what time to come home; what makes you think she can keep any agreements or boundaries you make about sex with other men?

My heart aches for both of you.
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I've been to AA, NA, and MA meetings. She's not an alcoholic in that sense. I've studied addiction too, and she's not addicted to alcohol. She may have been a habitual drinker, but not an addict, in terms that an addict feels they cannot live without their addiction, or that they cannot survive through the withdrawal of their addiction. I know some 12-steppers and ex-addicts/recovered addicts/life-long recovering addicts will say otherwise.

But her feeling that she deserves an occasional, every several weeks or so, drunken binge is more of an expression of her wanting to be free to be able to do whatever she wants to do.

I'd say her phone is much more of an addiction than alcohol.
 
Re (from amuk, Post #6):
"... in order to appease me in the moment was consciously agreeing to something she had no intention of sticking to."
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If she was really doing that, I consider that a pretty serious dysfunction.

Re (from amuk, Post #6):
"I fear the 9th week when I'm likely to hear that because she fulfilled this agreement I should have no problem with her getting drunk with her friends and coming back whenever she feels like doing so."
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It seems to me that her getting drunk with her friends, and having no fixed time when she'll return, is always going to be a problem for you, regardless of whether she honored some other agreement. If that's true, then I'd think it would be better to tell her, "Well actually I do have a problem with that. I'll probably always have a problem with that, no matter what other things you've agreed to."

She may be in the habit of emotionally manipulating you if that's historically worked for her. I have to say, I'm uncertain about the idea that she's making great progress with this therapist of hers -- unless she's treated you a lot worse in the past?

Anyway, her sticking to one spoken agreement shouldn't then obligate you to some future unspoken agreement (which she chooses later on). You can't control her actions, but you can tell her when you're not okay with something. You then have to decide what actions on your part would be in your own best interest if she still decides to do the thing you've told her you're not okay with.

Can you be happy living this life with her, the way she is, and with all the work you have to do? If you can't be happy with that, then the circumstances need to change. Either you need her to change, or if she won't change, you might want to consider what's a dealbreaker for you.
 
amuk said:
I'm kind of scared to ask for her to do things for me at this point, because historically, if she does something for me that I asked for, afterwards she often feels further entitled, and says something along the lines of "Now that I've done X for you, you should let me (or be okay with me) doing Y."
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All the other posters gave some good advice about compatibility and all, but I wanted to call this out specifically.

She is not doing things FOR YOU, she is doing things FOR US, and to balance out her contribution of the household. My husband brings in much more income than I do, and so when he is helping me do things around the house, I appreciate it. We actually had a discussion recently about what would happen if my social life started preventing me from taking on the lion's share of the chores, and although he is usually far too generous and forgiving, even he said he'd put his foot down if that happened. This was surprising, but it was nice to hear that he was making sure to look out for himself, too.

It sounds like you have a lot of work to be done in your relationship, since you are scared to talk to her. There are a ton of great book and website recommendations available in the book/website sticky at the top of the forum. I'd suggest researching and borrowing as many books as possible from the library as you can, which will help you learn to debate, negotiate, and make sure you're drawing firm boundaries and asking for what you need.
 
Ok, I'm going to try to get this thread headed back in the direction I was initially hoping for. Thanks for all the advice and allowing me to vent.

But let's suppose she is making gradual improvements. I truly believe she is trying and having some success doing so.

What am I to do in the meantime? I'm at a loss of what I can be doing for myself. I have so little time after nursing school and all the associated work, and I don't feel I can neglect the responsibilities I have committed to when it comes to being the provider of the family. For example, I am like a father to my 6 year-old step-daughter.

I feel I deserve a vacation, but I have no interest in going on one alone, even if I somehow had the time.

I'd like to provide myself with some special treat, if no one else is going to hand me one, but I can't think of something I want. I can't imagine enjoying something alone, by myself. I no longer want things much. I now cherish experiences, and have a strong desire to share.

Another love in my life would give me that opportunity to share experiences. However it's a chicken or egg, which came first, kind of dilemma. I don't see much chance of a new lover until I can get myself off this fixation upon this negativity I feel in my marriage.
 
Amuk, I hate to say it, but it seems like your last post is about trying to run a marathon, while patching a festering wound with Hello Kitty band-aids, instead of letting the wound heal before gently walking a mile.

The old "relationship broken, add more people" issue is at play here. There is no "special treat," no "tit for tat" that will fix this. Work on yourself, your health, your awareness, and your self esteem. Polish your hobbies, get a new one. Having that new special partner who makes you forget how crappy you feel about your marriage isn't going to do anything in the long run but help you decide if your wife is ever going to pull her weight, which should be decided ahead of taking on new partners.

I will say that getting a new partner CAN give you an extra excuse to decide that, even though your marriage isn't as rewarding as you thought it was, the extra happiness can make it tolerable to deal with the current problems for longer than you would if you were monogamous and unhappy.

"Another love in my life would give me that opportunity to share experiences."

What are those experiences? Are those things your wife just doesn't have in common with you? I.e., she hates hiking when you love it? She likes 3-day music festivals, when a 2-hour concert is your limit. She prefers vegan food while you hunger for a thick juicy steak? If it is the experience of love, equality, fairness - well, go reread all the things other people have said to you so far.

If it's that you just don't want to be alone in a tent with your wife for three days, because you would both be fine with it, but it would lead to at least a week of arguing and griping about your current relationship, that's pretty important.

It seems like you aren't sure what you want, or what you deserve, or even how to go about getting it if you figure it out. Starting with the basics is probably more helpful right now than trying to figure out how to build the Eiffel Tower. You won't be able to get off of the negativity you feel in your marriage until you have a solid foundation. I know you don't want to hear it, but you shouldn't be worrying about another love until you get your own house in order.

There are also plenty of conversation that could be had about this-- "I don't feel I can neglect the responsibilities I have committed to when it comes to being the provider of the family (I am like a father to my 6 year-old step-daughter)", and what that means about your wife and her responsibilities. But I'll save that for another time.
 
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amuk said:
Though I do sense some sarcasm I also can see some truth in the statement. Especially when the man plays the patriarchal part in the sense that he is the primary source of income, sole manager of the finances and household paperwork, payer of bills, provider of house and car, has all the debt in his name, handles most all family "emergencies" (plumbing, appliances going awry, car needing repair, daycare falling through, medical bills, wife's computer dying during finals), does most all the household shopping, is the only driver, and responsible for the yardwork and maintenance of the house. I'm doing all that while also working myself through nursing school so I can be a stable source of income to support the family into the future. Sometimes for all I do I feel like I deserve that my wife bring a harem of girls home to me on occasion...not that I have ever said so, or even really felt that way. What is more true, is that I feel I deserve my wife to be my harem (at least sometimes when I have the time) like she was before she knew she had me as her own...when she was being the person she wants to now be to other men (at least this is what I think she means when she says she want to feel like she's free to be whoever she wants to be with another man and how if I were involved she couldn't experience that freedom).
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I've run across this being a "liberated" woman, insofar as it is convenient, and snapping right back into macho gender roles when things get inconvenient quite a lot. And you forgot the chair-pulling and door-opening. That is sarcasm.

I am actually quite serious about what I stated, although I realize I did it in a douchey, blanket-statement kind-of-way. But, it seemed right for the occasion.

It sounds to me like you're simply a mono guy at heart who`s being taken for a ride by an opportunist because she's supposedly hot. There are actual prostitutes available to you for that particular purpose, you know.

Maybe if you slept with a bunch of steaming hot women you might stop putting this one on a pedestal along with the other chumps.

If entitlement is Snow White's drug, Prince Charming is her enabler.
 
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amuk said:
I know I deserve better and the best thing I could do for myself would be to end this marriage, but at this moment I'd like to focus on ways I may be better able to accept things as they are. I know the less I focus on the negatives in my marriage, the more likely I will find someone else for myself to have a crush on, fall in love with, and/or be able to go out on fun dates with.
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And who is going to want to enter into the icky dynamic you have going on? Please don't lay the burden on some unsuspecting nice woman you might date to magically transform your life and rescue you.

You need to rescue yourself.

Yes, you do deserve better, but it sounds like she is not the type to want to change. It's unfortunate that there are people like this (both men and women) who feel entitled, and do not look at the effect they have on those around them.

If I were you, I would end the marriage (as economically as possible) or separate, look at what attracted you to this type of person in the first place, and then work on those issues.

Did you want a trophy wife?

I have a feeling that things would be much better for you if you moved on.
 
Re (from amuk, Post #1):
"I do have feelings that I deserve better and the best thing I can do for myself is end this marriage, but at this moment I'd like to focus on ways I may be better able to accept things as they are. I know the less I focus on the negatives in my marriage the more likely I will find someone else for myself to have a crush on, fall in love with, and/or be able to go out on fun dates with."
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... and re (from amuk, Post #16):
"Another love in my life would give me that opportunity to share experiences however it's a chicken or egg, which came first, kind of dilemma ... I don't see much chance of a new lover until I can get myself off this fixation upon this negativity I feel in my marriage."
Click to expand...

Well let me ask you this:
What are some of the positives in your marriage?
 
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