Wanted: Advice about an affair that may not wait

[BraverySeeker]

Two weeks ago, my wife of 10 years (gf for an additional 15 years), Val, admitted to having an unconsummated attraction to a married female colleague, Callie. Although this initially threw me, I love and trust Val enough to not stand in her way and to believe, as she has convinced me, that there's room in her heart for two.

Val and I have talked at length over the last several days and covered a great deal of emotional ground. It's been a real rollercoaster for me in particular. She and I have also been in research mode, which has helped inform our disenchantment with monogamy. However, our judgment may be clouded.

The fact is, Callie's marriage is on the rocks, and she's torn about telling her husband (Steve) about the budding affair. While her unhappiness with him predates Val's arrival on the scene, that other marriage is the subject of much discussion between Callie and Val. I'm frankly uncomfortable being a party to those talks. My gut says it isn't any of my business, yet the possible secrecy (keeping Steve in the dark about our wives' relationship) flies in the face of the openness and truth-telling the three of us have at least said we want to foster between us.

Callie recently informed Steve that he has neglected her to such a degree that she's on the brink of calling it quits. This has gotten his attention. He's spent much of the past several months out of state. In response, he's finally said things that have led her to believe he wants to rescue their relationship.

Whether that happens, or it ends, she apparently wants to pursue an intimate relationship with Val, just as Val wants to be with her. Callie said at one point she wouldn't tell Steve about the affair-to-be, but at other times has said it would be better if he knew sooner rather than later.

In the meantime, Callie and Val are planning to spend their first night together, at a hotel tomorrow (Wednesday) night. (They have reportedly kissed, but have not gone further than that, as of yet.) They planned this night before Steve agreed to fly home next Tuesday to try to reconcile with her. His flight has not, however, convinced the women to push back their date.

I don't have a problem with their desire to be together. But I'm unnerved by Steve not knowing what's happening, let alone not having the opportunity to give his consent-- not that anyone thinks he would. He's not being given a chance. As I was recently told by a member of this forum, "You can't build a poly life on a bad marriage. That's Poly 101."

I'd really hate to be him. A part of me is rooting for him to salvage their marriage. But the odds are stacked against him, and maybe rightfully so, but he doesn't know that yet.

I'm not in a position to serve as his advocate, however. And I'm afraid that any attempt by me to argue against the wisdom of following through with tomorrow's date night would be viewed as me selfishly attempting to derail their plans to have sex, which I can't pretend doesn't scare me to some degree.

So what would the more poly-experienced folks on this board do? What are the likely consequences that would come of Val and Callie a) proceeding as planned tomorrow night, b) putting it off until after Callie and Steve can at least talk through their own problems, c) letting Steve know or not know about the developing affair, or d) postponing development of a deeper relationship between the two women entirely until the other marriage is resolved or dissolved?

I think I know the answers. But I/we could use some more objective input.

 

[GalaGirl]

So what would the more poly-experienced folks on this board do? What are the likely consequences that would come of the women a) proceeding as planned tomorrow night

If Callie does not tell Steve, and get his full consent, then this is a cheating affair. I frown on this. It's not like polyamory says "No, dude." It just says go slow, be honest, and take it easy on people's hearts.

I'm frankly uncomfortable being a party to those talks. My gut says it isn't any of my business, yet the possible secrecy (keeping Steve in the dark about our wives' relationship) flies in the face of the openness and truth telling the three of us have at least said we want to foster between us.

You have every right to hold up your limit. Your gut is telling you it is your business. You are married to Val, and her well-being is part of your business until you are no longer married.

They have made you an accessory before the fact, because you know Steve was being kept in the dark as they plotted their cheating hook-up. It is now your business. You have been roped in.

They are also upsetting you by not getting his consent, because this makes Val a knowing participating cheater. Are you happy knowing this about her character? Are you happy knowing this about Callie, that you are supposed to entrust Val's well-being to?

They promise you open truthiness? Okay. Here is first opportunity to practice open truthiness in their new developing romance. They choose to lie by omission to Steve, and choose to make you an accessory before the fact. Yuck! You may also wonder what they are already keeping, and will be keeping, from you, with lies of omission.

Are you happy to be used this way? Nope. Why else would you post? This is not ethical. This is not loving behavior toward their husbands, keeping Steve in the dark and causing you mental and emotional pain.

putting it off until after Callie and Steve can at least talk through their own problems.

Telling him and pausing the affair until they are sorted in the marriage would be better, more respectful.

Telling him and going ahead without his consent would still be a cheating affair, just in front of his face, instead of behind his back. Callous! It would be kinder to end it with him first. And you are still upset for all the reasons in A) above. They are still not treating their husbands in a loving manner.

letting him know, or not, about the developing affair

Consequences of Callie letting Steve know she is attracted to Val--

• He is being given his right to full information and clear communication from her.
• He can take this information on board when evaluating their marriage with her for status/repair-ability/assessment/his willingness to stay in it.
• Hard for him to hear, and for her to speak, probably, but she is at least being honest and respectful of his right to clear communication. Better than lying!
• Still pending his consent.
• She (and Val) ARE honoring their agreement to open truthiness with you.
• She (and Val) ARE NOT making you an accessory before the fact, roping you into dirt, and leaving you there.

Consequences of Callie not letting Steve know--

• She doesn't have to have a hard conversation.
• She doesn't have to deal with his reaction.
• She denies his right to clear communication and full information in his marriage. She withholds information from him that could have bearing when evaluating their marriage with her for status/repair-ability/assessment/his willingness to stay in it.
• He is denied the ability to give informed consent. He has no clue.
• She (and Val) ARE NOT honoring their agreement to open truthiness with you.
• She (and Val) ARE making you an accessory before the fact, roping you into dirt, and leaving you there. Boo!

.

postponement of a deeper relationship between these two women entirely until the other marriage is resolved or dissolved

Best and cleanest. Nothing wrong with being friends and Callie finishing up with the old romance configuration with Steve appropriately (monogamous relationship), before beginning a new one with him (open polyship or a divorce, depending), and then a new one with Val (as girlfriends), and a new one with you (as metamour).

In those shoes, I'd hope my DH had some self respect, that he felt he was worth waiting for and dating nicely and appropriately. I'd tell a potential person something like:

"I care for you, too. But my wife and I have ethical agreements to meet before taking on new partners. So go home and sort your thing out with your husband. Patch it up to "open well," or "break up well" first, so things are clean. Then look me up. Don't be involving me and her in drama if you claim to love me so. That is not loving behavior toward me. That is also not respectful behavior to my wife, your potential metamour. Disrespect to my wife is disrespect to me. Love me and respect me enough to date me nicely and appropriately."

I'm not in a position to serve as his advocate, however. And I'm afraid that any attempt by me to argue against the wisdom of following through with tomorrow's date night would be viewed as me selfishly attempting to derail their plans to have sex, which I can't pretend doesn't scare me to some degree.

You have the right to state your own wants, needs, and limits.

If it were me and DH in this, if he was planning on doing that with his potential GF, planning a hotel hookup, despite my not giving full consent (because the other spouse is being kept in the dark), I would remind him this is not ethical and there will be consequences on our relationship tier for going on with the plan. I cannot be with a cheater. I have a limit. We have agreements about all parties giving consent.

If he moves forward despite my voicing concerns and limits--

• He helps her cheat on her husband behind his back.
• He'd be breaking agreements with me and cheating on me in front of my face.
• Even if she and her hubby break up, this behavior is not endearing this new metamour to me. This behavior is not endearing DH to me.

Consequences--

• I would dump his butt for breaking agreement and cheating on me in front of my face.
• I'd call up the other spouse to let him know our spouses were having a cheating affair, I dumped DH's butt, and was informing him so he could make his own decisions on dealing with his end of things.

I cannot control other people. I can control myself, and how I behave. I can respect my own limits.

Let's have some ethics and some kind of a code. Play like a Jedi, not like the Muppet Show.

 

[dingedheart]

Callie doing this puts you and your family into the mess of another relationship.

How can Steve have any chance at an honest repair if Callie is distracted with another lover? That's crazy... and cruel. Why bother? Just to make a fool out of him?

I'd invite Val and Callie to read the responses to this thread, so it's not your suggestion.

 

[IndieSolo]

Just because they want to doesn't mean they should. Not every attraction or crush needs to be acted upon. Why can't they wait? What's the hurry? I know their desire for each other is probably the reason, but sheesh, use a vibrator and fantasize, for goodness sakes. What are they, teenagers who don't know how to control themselves?

Val wants to be with a potential cheater. That means, if she does hook up with Callie, Val is participating in the deception, and actively putting Callie in the position of lying, hiding, and not being ethical. Why does she thinks this is okay? Callie feeling neglected by Steve is no excuse, and does not justify doing that to him. There may be more behind the scenes that Val is not privy to. I say, they both need to slow the fuck down and get a grip on reality!

 

[AnnabelMore]

You are trusting Callie with Val's heart and body, and yet she's not trustworthy enough to put a hold on a prospective affair while attempting to work on her relationship with Steve. Val is getting into a vulnerable situation with someone who's proving that she values pleasure over honesty. Of course you're concerned. I would explain this, and ask them to hold off.

Another way to think about it -- infidelity sometimes makes people go crazy, crimes of passion and all that. Do you really want to risk a jealous, grief-maddened, betrayed husband putting a bullet in Val if he catches them at it? Why can't they just wait?

This isn't cool, and you are within your rights to not want to be a party to it.

 

[opalescent]

Cal and Callie are flying towards a cliff at a million miles per hour. When they hit bottom - and they will sooner or later - the fallout will impact you, Val, Callie, Steve, and any children involved, as well as lots of other folks (family, friends, work associates, etc.).

Beg them to wait. They are cheating. Yes, when they are so "in love," and so hot for each other, it is painful to wait. Do it anyway. They can start their relationship with integrity and trust with each other, and with you and with Steve, if he is still in the picture. How long once the infatuation and sex "stupidity" (NRE) wears off (and it will) will it occur to Val or Callie, 'Can I really trust her? After all, they had an affair with me'? How long will this go before you wonder 'Can I trust Val? After all, she is having an affair with this person'?

Callie needs to sort out things with Steve first. Yes, that may take time. And maybe he is a dick and she should just dump his ass and leap headfirst into Val's arms. Or she may want to see if they can salvage the relationship - and still jump into Val's arms, with Steve's knowledge.

I personally do not think it is your place to tell Steve. However, if asked, I would not lie. Tell your Val and Callie that. You will also not assist them. You support Val's love for Callie, but not her cheating. And tell Val how disappointed you are in her. Where is her good sense, good judgment? That may get your point across like nothing else.

 

[LovingRadiance]

I would point Val to reading about NRE and the destructive manifestations it can have. Also, I would suggest she read about chemical love. What she's going through is not "love." It's her body being flooded with a bunch of feel-good chemicals, like crack.

Not to say that love couldn't develop at some point between her and Callie. But love isn't filled with the need to rush. It's confident and contented.

That said, I agree with Galagirl's post above 100%, so I won't repeat it. But I will tell you why I agree.

I am polyamorous. I married under a monogamous agreement. My husband was neglectful. He emotionally abandoned me in the first several years of our marriage. There were reasons. They are not pertinent here, but you can read about them if you wish in my blog.

I had an emotional (not sexual) affair with my best friend (of 10 years at that time).

A couple years later, thinking the marriage was over, and, "Why bother waiting it out?" I consummated the emotional affair with a full physical and sexual affair.
The resulting disaster nearly destroyed me.
It nearly destroyed my husband.
It nearly destroyed my lover/best friend.
It nearly destroyed my children.

The consequences were not worth the gratification, even though the situation I was in was certainly one that most people would have understood me filing for divorce.

The clean-up, the trust lost between all of those people and myself (including my kids), the years of re-earning that trust, even with my lover/best friend-- it just wasn't worth it.

However, waiting long enough to be honest and upfront, to uphold the truth of your principles, and be forthright with everyone who is directly impacted by your actions, does not in any way reduce the enjoyment of making mad passionate love with a new lover.

The consequences of waiting are positive because you keep your self-respect and honor. And the wait will make the consummation that much sweeter.

The consequences of not waiting are all negative. Because regardless of how great that night feels, it will always be tinged with the resulting loss of trust between you and Val, between both of the ladies, deep down, and between Steve and Callie.

 

[Anneintherain]

Yes, I too would wait. Steve will be home soon. Callie can share that she is unhappy and why, and tell him she's attracted to somebody else. He may not feel as threatened, as it's another woman. So it's possible that can open the discussions more easily, and they could perhaps reconcile, and allow for a poly relationship, or at least end things without anybody feeling betrayed..

I'd caution Val to hold off. You'll all feel better about it. Nothing is stopping them from having a date next week, after things get more settled with Steve, one way or the other. It's not a healthy entrance into poly to cheat, and I'm guessing you'll feel conflicted enough about it from what you've said that it will affect you negatively as you move forward (after all, you came close to being in the other husband's position), and that is something you need to be clear about with Val.

 

[snowmelt]

Callie is in an unstable situation. That instability will come into your marriage if she pursues this relationship now. Callie needs to clean things up on her end before doing anything with Val. That means Callie needs to decide if she is in or out of her marriage. If in, she needs to take whatever time is necessary to see if Steve is willing to open their marriage before she does anything with your wife. Val starting a relationship with Callie the way things are for Callie now is not the healthy seeking you spoke of in another thread.

 

[BraverySeeker]

Thank you. All of you. I/we were heard. Before going out last night, Val read my post and most of your comments, harsh as some of them were. We needed exactly that-- to be called out.

After reading the above the day before yesterday, Val immediately called Callie and shared my concerns with her. They agreed to still go out together, because they needed that time. (They both have high pressure jobs, and lead very busy lives, which will undoubtedly prove challenging as they go forward. But as Val said, "It's a good thing we're both organizers.") They agreed that there would be no expectation of sleeping together, and they held to that.

Val's first comment to me after reading all this was "I get the impression that you expect that Callie and I will be together long term." I said I did, but nothing in her relationship background suggested otherwise. Val said she expected me to seek consultation elsewhere, so my posting to this forum neither surprised nor upset her. (If it isn't obvious by now, she's amazing.)

To update this thread, I'll say that last night the two of them did go out for dinner and to the hotel room (a necessity, given both of our homes have children in them) to have an uninterrupted and thorough talk about their relationship with each other, and their relationships with us, their husbands. Aside from kissing, they did not get physical and they did not stay the night. Val and I talked a bit when she got home and again this morning.

It sounds to me like they've gone a long way to clarifying their feelings for one another, and acknowledging that they must put on hold acting fully on those feelings, at least until Steve is brought up to speed. He returns from out of state on Monday night. Then time will tell whether he proves himself up to the task of saving their marriage and earning a place back in her heart. Val said she urged Callie to tell Steve about the two of them as soon as possible. Callie said she knows she should. Furthermore, she said she could imagine him accepting and supporting it.

That's a big step forward. Now the challenge is the follow-through and dealing with however he responds.

He may well react with anger and be inconsolable; unable to address Callie's needs. No more would be expected of him, if my scan yesterday of the crammed "relationships" section at the local chain bookstore is any indication. There must have been more than a dozen titles advising unhappy couples on how to shore up their listless monogamous marriages, deal with the aftermath of affairs or, for more suspicious and untrusting spouses, books on how to sniff and snuff out affairs before they happen.

The shelf included only a couple copies of "The Ethical Slut" to challenge our hard-wired assumption that everyone must couple up, commit to one another exclusively or divorce and die alone.

I spent several moments gazing at this book selection and wondering, "Am I wrong to trust Val, when she says she loves me more than she ever has in nearly 30 years, but also that she is now in love with this other person I barely know? Should I run? Would anyone blame me for running?"

It didn't take me long to conclude that I am not wrong to trust her. Yes, she left me once before for another woman. But we found each other again. And since then, she has, on countless occasions, demonstrated her commitment to me and our family. She is unwilling to risk losing us; the fortunate and love-filled life we've built together.

Although I have spent only a handful of hours on this discussion board, it has amazed me. Rather than adapt a laissez faire attitude about any and all non-monogamous arrangements, you folks challenge people's motivations and assumptions, and point out their blind spots. And you unfailingly promote fairness, full disclosure, obtaining consent and sharing/receiving love with the utmost integrity.

As I've said, my relationship with the woman I married started nearly 30 years ago. In all that time, I admit I haven't worked this hard on "us." It hasn't been easy, no, but laying bare our fears, dreams, expectations and boundaries, as we have over the last couple weeks, has been extraordinary. (So, too, has the more frequent and more adventuresome sex we've been having, not coincidentally. Enough said.)

So thank you for this forum. Thank you for calling us on our shit. It's all been instructive and, I expect, it will continue to be.

 

[GalaGirl]

It's not easy to be called into account; neither is calling yourself into account, or calling Val and Callie into account; or asking others to help you see the forest for the trees, and help you to see from another perspective.

I am glad to know you talked and they decided what they did. I am sure this helps you build trust with Callie and reaffirm trust in Val, and you are reassured in your own self too. Cupcakes for all!

So now, what could have gone real bad from the get-go is on better footing. Not out of the woods yet, because Steve has to be brought into the conversation. But is this a much better place from which to do that, right?

Shine on. Gotta love hot ethics.

 

[BraverySeeker]

UPDATE: As of two nights ago, Steve knows. Apparently he and Callie first talked at length about what needed to happen for their relationship to improve, and since that conversation was going so well, she wasted no time breaking the news that she had feelings for someone else. When she said her feelings were for another woman, surprisingly he guessed it was Val.

What he said and did next were hopeful, suggesting he can understand and accept nonmonogamy in their marriage. But it's early, and he only just got on the emotional rollercoaster I've been riding for a couple weeks now.

I'm relieved that she told him for several reasons. It demonstrates the seriousness of her feelings for Val, which are mutual; that she respected me by abiding by my concerns that if he wasn't told, and they cheated on him, that that would make it difficult for me to trust them; and the correctness of her intuition that, if given the chance, Steve could handle the truth and come to the same conclusions I have reached.

In light of his nascent acceptance, I feel weirdly "not special" anymore. Until Monday night, I was the only one who knew of the budding affair between the women. I embraced that secret knowledge, and tried to educate myself and them about what it may mean for us. I realized quickly that "us" had to include Steve; he needed to know what I knew, and sooner than not.

Now that he does know, and is responding in an enlightened and accepting manner, I feel odd. I know it would have been a huge mistake for our wives' love for each other (I don't know that he's yet fully aware that they've actually fallen in love) to go to the next level without knowing beforehand. I suspect all the relationships involved have been saved, or at least been given a fair chance to be saved and to grow.

A burden has been lifted from my shoulders, no doubt about it. But I feel much less worthy of Val's previous characterization of me as an "astoundingly understanding" partner. If Steve reacts to the news like I did, then he's just as astounding. Maybe this is just what husbands do when confronted with their wives' love for others.

I think not. More likely, he and I just know our partners well enough to recognize their capacity to love us and someone else at the same time. I hope he can feel secure in that new reality. It's getting easier for me to accept, anyway.

He and I haven't talked yet. I'm not eager for it, but I'm not afraid of that inevitable first conversation. I've let Callie know that if Steve has questions for me, I'm willing to answer them. But until now, I assumed I would be there to support him in his struggle to accept the situation. Now I'm thinking maybe I could use his insight and backing.

This is an amazing trip we're all on. As much as I've been unable to predict how it would unfold, I sincerely believe we've taken the right steps so far.

 

[GalaGirl]

Yay! Sounds so much better! That's great.

In light of his nascent acceptance, I feel weirdly "not special" anymore.

If you feel "flat," don't forget "hormone-dump" consequences, whether in general sex awesome, in kinky town, in tense business negotiations, in war, even -- that hormonal "flight or fight" dump thing (and you have been in tension rollercoaster recently -- do note that!).

When the dump happens, you need a few days to clear the hormone soup from the body. It can feel like withdrawal, clearing the adrenaline and all that other stuff out. It's exciting to be on a new adventure with your wife. Excitement as "stimulating things" is both good and bad. Stimulus is stimulus, keeping you up on your toes. When the stimulus stops and you can catch a break, you can float on down, or just clunk THUD!

It isn't that you are not special. Anyone who thinks they can hack polyamory is special, in the sense that they want to walk a different path than the usual. And anyone who can do it well is exemplary!

Polyamory is edge play of the heart, dude. It's the horrible-wonderful-horrible-wonderful thing, the "Am I crazy? I must be crazy. I am not crazy. But I am crazy!" thing.

Your willingness to extend a hand of friendship to Steve is a nice gesture. Whether or not he wants to take you up on that is on him, but it is good of you to offer.

Hang in there; stick to your hot ethics as your guiding light. They are serving you well so far. Shine on!

Namaste,
Galagirl

 

[opalescent]

In light of his nascent acceptance, I feel weirdly "not special" anymore....

But I feel much less worthy of my wife's previous characterization of me as an "astoundingly understanding" partner.

Polyamory is edge play of the heart, dude.

Hi, BraverySeeker. First, good for you, the women and Steve. It is so nice to see people pull back from the precipice. (Often folks post who have already leaped off that nice mountain.)

Also, dude, don't worry. You will soon have another situation in which to demonstrate your awesome understanding. There is nothing like poly relationships to give one opportunities for growth.

GG, I'm totally stealing that!

 

[BraverySeeker]

I'm saddened to report that all is not well for the other couple. Their marriage appears to be cratering, less because Callie recently fell in love with Val, and more because she has, for quite some time, been falling out of love with Steve. He is conflating the two realities, as would I in his position, but seems increasingly unable respond with much other than anger. But she hasn't given him much to hope for either, as she apparently has voiced her preference that they go their separate ways after nearly 20 years of marriage.

At one point, he asked her to stop her affair (I call it an "affair," although it has not yet progressed from the emotional to the physical, but it has been the former for the past couple months now) until they can repair their marriage. She has been very firm that she is not willing to give up her relationship with Val, although they are willing to keep it in its present holding pattern.

Steve has not sought help from anyone, and has even rebuffed Callie's suggestion that they see a marriage counselor. Even if they did, I'm doubtful he'll be able to a) change to the extent she needs him to, b) be able to accept that she can and does love another, and c) win back her affection. I really don't know him, I admit, but I still don't think he can do all that in short order.

Meanwhile, Val and I just celebrated the 28th anniversary of our first kiss - when we were HS freshmen in the back seat of a friend's car, parked in the school lot during a football game. Amazingly, we are kissing (and then some) more passionately, communicating more easily and regularly, and connecting more profoundly than we ever have. And this has been possible largely because she's been able to share with me knowledge of her love for Callie. We've done the work and we're still doing it, and we don't fear losing each other as a consequence.

I really wish Steve could be experiencing with his spouse what I am with my mine. Instead, he looks likely to lose her. This saddens me.

I don't think my choice to accept rather than prohibit the affair (a power I never had) would have prevented the dissolution of that other marriage. They were on a downward slide long before our wives met over a year ago. He may disagree and blame me, nevertheless. I don't know if he does. But right now I'm not in a position to correct him, and he's not in a place to hear me out, or benefit at all from hearing my perspective. If he were to reach out to me, I wouldn't refuse to talk to him, honestly. But presently we're on such radically different planes of understanding love. Yet we are undeniably linked by the love our wives feel for one another. It's ironic and tragic.

Apparently his outlook has changed almost hourly over the past few days, so maybe I shouldn't write him off. But as long as he refuses to accept outside help, I can't imagine him making the right choices for him and them.

Fight or flight: Fight for her and them to stay together, or take flight from it all. Not being able to predict what he will do has produced some scary moments, I'm told. I just hope he doesn't do anything rash, something everyone will regret.

 

[SNeacail]

You might want to reach out to him as another guy, someone who has been successful in a long-term marriage, and just say, "Dude, if you want to at least try and salvage your marriage, get your ass to a counselor." I say this as someone who early on was reluctant for years to seek counseling until our marriage was inches from divorce.

A crumbling marriage will not be fixed overnight, or even in a few months. It takes years to rebuild. For some reason, this surprises people.

 

[GalaGirl]

Callie told Steve the night of 10/01. It is only 10/5. It is Big News, and he could be emotionally flooded. Guys really do seem to shut down when flooded.

I would not make a rash decision about ending a marriage in a mere four days.

Callie is asking Steve to consider a huge paradigm shift in his belief system. Where you draw the line in the sand at a physical intimacy, you do not know if he draws it at emotional intimacy. So he could be feeling betrayed at a level you are not, if he thinks Callie has been cheating on him emotionally, in an affair of the heart (if not yet the body.)

Dunno if there is anything here that will help:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html

I think his request for Callie to chill on seeing Val is okay, if he give it a reasonable, measurable time limit. E.g., "A month of limiting it to email or phone, and not in my face, please, so I do not emotionally trigger and flood while processing with you." Saying to end it with Val is not fixing whatever is wrong with the marriage, or working on whatever issues he has in his personal growth. It's just removing the flashlight, the relationship with Val, so he doesn't have to look inward at himself or his marriage. The brokenness is still there, whether we shine a light on it or not.

I think Callie stating she's not giving up her relationship with Val is valid if she wants to be in relationship with her. But if her relationship with Val can't hack a month of time out while she sorts out her marriage-- what? Val isn't worth the wait? Her husband of 20 years isn't worth the courtesy of four weeks after she drops a bomb like that?

I think she could reframe it and quietly and firmly say, "No, I am not willing to terminate my relationship with Val. I am willing to dial the volume on that down to email/phone friendship for (X time limit) while we sort our own marriage out first. I want to see a marriage counselor to help us. I want to try to be in relationship with you and navigate new changes, if you are willing to try. Are you willing to try?"

I think her request to see a counselor to help them navigate the month of intense talk is reasonable. Sometimes a mediator is needed. Things were broken before Val entered the picture. So, let's get on with fixing the break that was already there. Taking a month's time-out to digest the news is not that long.

The only question Steve needs to find an answer to inside himself by the end of the month is: "Am I willing to work on myself and on my marriage with Callie to embrace this new change, or not? Will I go to a counselor to start that process with her?"

If he's not willing, and it is a total dealbreaker, move toward amicable divorce, then.

If he's willing to try, then the next baby step is to see if he can learn the skills needed/embrace being a mono arm in a "V," with Val as the hinge.

I don't know if that helps you guys any. This may not be fun to feel, but at least it is open, honest, and they'd be trying to be as clean as possible. That's still a Good Thing.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

She told him the night of 10/01. It is only 10/5. It is Big News, and he could be emotionally flooded. Guys really do seem to shut down when flooded.

I would not make a rash decision about ending a marriage in a mere four days.

It doesn't sound like Val is making a rash decision. It sounds like she's been falling out of love with Steve for a long time, and has reached a point where she feels the marriage cannot be salvaged. She was "on the brink of calling it quits" before she ever told him about the romance.

I get where she's coming from. My husband works out of town and it's been getting really hard over the past year, as his work hours have been steadily increasing, while decreasing his time for me. It hasn't always been like that, and I've been telling him for months that if he doesn't change his work patterns to more like they were when we were first married, then it will wear down our marriage. We simply haven't got enough time to deal with the day-to-day business of a marriage, let alone the emotional requirements.

This weekend, we hit an apex. We finally got through to each other about what the other has been neglecting. Already this week, there have been tremendous changes and things are looking up.

The difference is, we caught it before it was too late. We hadn't yet reached a point where we'd started falling out of love. I could just see that if we kept down that road, then we would start falling out of love, to cope with the pain of feeling neglected.

I've had other relationships in the past where I was falling out of love, and spending a lot of time thinking about breaking up. For me, it was never possible to go back after that. Once you get it in your head that your relationship is over, it's nearly impossible to change your mind. At least, that's how it is for me, and I'm guessing that's how it is for this other woman.

Then you add in the fact that Steve is not willing to seek counselling, and I don't blame Val for feeling like he's not even trying to save the marriage.

P.S. I really like that article about emotional flooding. That's exactly what happens to my husband, and it will be useful for me to keep that in mind.

 

[GalaGirl]

It doesn't sound like Val is making a rash decision

Yes, she's known about her feelings a long time. But I meant Steve. He just learned of her feelings in a way he cannot deny or ignore. So him making a rash decision about his marriage while he could be emotionally flooded would not be wise, if he ultimately wishes to engage with her and actually do repairs.

Acting out at her while flooded would only make it worse. The weakened marriage would take even more hits.

Better for him to take some time out to calm down first. I do not find him asking for a "time out" space unreasonable in that case, provided it has a time limit and doesn't get abused as a way to avoid the whole issue altogether. A "time out to calm down" and process this in a better frame of mind does not equal "swish it under the rug and never deal with it."

 

[dingedheart]

Fight or flight? Not knowing the 20-yr internal issues of their relationship, and the effect this new relationship has had on their marriage, that might be putting it a bit too simply.

Fight for what? The argument might be fighting to get his marriage back, fighting for his partner-- but that's not on the table. He's going to get some new dynamic, a percentage of her time, focus and attention. Seeing their relationship within the past yr with new eyes, and extrapolating that out, factoring in NRE, etc., it might look like a very, very uphill fight. He'd be fighting for an unknown quantity, or worse, be caught in some exercise in futility, and reluctant to be made a fool of.

And with all the damage they need to work through, that might not be enough of a prize. Ripping this band-aid off quickly might be good for everyone.

Are the women happy they decided to hold off on the sex until he could be told?