Hi, DFW. I’ve just read through your thread and I have some thoughts for you, too.
Since Lee lives so far away, and really wants some "alone time" with Joy, they are pushing for an overnight
You used the word "pushing." That sets the undertone for the rest of the feelings you are exhibiting in this thread. This current situation isn't what you want. Not only that, but you feel it's happening regardless. Things are spiraling.
How did you handle your spouse's first weekend away? I'm worried that I will feel alone and abandoned. I'm jealous of their NRE and wish I had that in my life too.
Your demons seem to be:
- need for attention
- fear of abandonment
- envy
In other words, most of their time together will be without me, which would be easier for me to handle, I think, if I had a sweetie other than Joy.
You know, I used to think this. My girlfriend had an intense relationship for two years, followed by another intense one for about seven months. I always wanted that elusive "sweetie of my own" to make the blues go away.
Eight months ago, I decided that I actually had a lesson to learn here. I stopped dating and forced myself to 'go it alone' whilst she was going through her recent intense relationship. It was difficult, very difficult, but on god, it made me so much stronger. And I am no longer as dependent on other people to take my pain away. It's just something to think about.
Incidentally, as a side note, the one my girlfriend went the most gaga for was this latest seven-month guy, and she'd known him for a couple of years previously, too. I think that, in the case of Joy, and my girlfriend, there can be something to be said for long-awaited relationships. That chemistry burns away for years, you place all of your poly hopes on that person and it can become consuming. My girlfriend will admit now that she spent "too much" time and energy getting caught up in that relationship.
Basically what I'm saying here is: don't panic yet. Sometimes the hottest flames are the ones that burnt out the fastest. And lessons can be learnt.
I'm not a solitary-type person. I love being around other people, so I never really look forward to any alone time, as odd as that may sound. Joy, on the other hand, loves it. So the good news is that when the shoe is on the other foot, she will be much less of a wreck than me, hopefully.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a "people person." Extroverts feel recharged when they absorb energy from others; from the environment. Introverts need to be away from the energy of others to feel recharged. However, you should think on this and ensure that you aren't relying too much on Joy for attention, or have an unhealthy expectation in terms of how much attention you expect.
As for the advice about Joy "working on it," I actually read that post to her last night and she agreed to hurry it up. Which brings us to trying to figure out the best way to meet people. I figure online is pretty much the number one option. So, which sites are good?
Just be careful here. Maybe finding someone else will be the answer to all of your problems-- but I actually believe that it's avoiding self-growth. Your issues, that were evident at the start of your thread, were:
- need for attention
- fear of abandonment
- envy
How are you conquering these by getting someone of your own? You're just feeding them by soothing them with a person, instead of teaching yourself how to feel happy with less attention, how to feel secure when alone, and how to develop compersion, happiness for Joy's happiness, instead of envy.
Don't get me wrong!! I'm not saying that you should be mono. I'm saying that, even if it's not right now, it can be useful for one person in a relationship to work on some core issues, rather than following a knee-jerk desire to soothe their bad feelings with a new relationship.
She sat in his lap and they kissed for an hour, while I tried to occupy myself around the house doing other things. After a while, I sat down near them and tried to start a conversation, you know as if to say, "Hey, I'm still here."
Now, this wouldn't be acceptable to me. But I'm not into cuckolding, and I'm not a voyeur when it comes to someone I'm in love with. As a previous swinger, you've obviously seen her with other people plenty of times. So, what really hurt you was the *lack of attention*.
I don't blame you for that. What's going on here isn't swinging. It's polyamory between the two of them, with you on the outside.
I think it was good that you removed yourself. I think it was beyond awful that she continued to have sex with him, and that she giggled on the phone, unless she had verbally requested that she and Lee be a couple, instead of the FMM, and you've ignored it. In which case, she'd be feeling resentful.
I would never have let her leave the house if the shoe was on the other foot.
Then you wanted her to stop you. You didn't want to be out of the situation. You wanted her *attention*.
The next day I took the kids out for the day, but before I left, I told her that, given everything that happened the night before, I would really appreciate some affection when I got home.
I think that this is fair to ask for. But again, it does make me wonder about your need for attention. You didn't say "I'd love to spend some time with you alone, as I'm feeling a little sensitive and could really use a hug to make me feel better." You said: "If
I can get some positive re-enforcement that leaving the two of you alone makes you happy, and
you appreciate me, some kisses, some snuggling, etc., then this
will help me get more comfortable and
WANT to give you that time."
You were saying "if
I get this this and this, I'll give you something."
What may have been more productive is to request that you two have a brief talk about guidelines during that time, or after the weekend. Because I don't think it's just about the attention you want; it's about a situation that you feel is out of control.
When she returns, I feel much better and pull her close to me to snuggle in my lap. Lee is taking a nap at this point in our bedroom. After Joy and I snuggle for one minute, she says she wants to go wake Lee up, and leaves.
You pulled her close to you and she left quickly. Is there any chance, whatsoever, she is feeling claustrophobic, controlled, manipulated, that you need constant attention? Or, is she really just being insensitive and like a kid in a candy store with Lee? This is a genuine question. I don't know the answer.
Swinger mentality strikes again.
I'm somewhere between polysexual and polyamorous, but it irritates me when polyamorous people get irritated with 'swinging mentality'. There are an infinite number of relationship models, guidelines, agreements and comfort levels. Poly people judging swingers is no different from mono people who judge poly people.
So what if you do want to only be a swinger? So what if you don't? So what if you want to have a house boy to pick the living room up while your wife feeds the kids?
The point is, you have to figure out what
you want.
It sounds like Joy believes that you've made XYZ agreement. This is either because you have; or because there has been a communication breakdown; or because she wants to tell herself you've made ABC agreement.
You're feeling the same thing. It's why you're resenting it. You thought the agreement was MFM. She thinks it's FM, FM, and a little MFM. (With her at the centre, yes?
)
So, to conclude-- in my opinion, polyamory is about:
Comfortable - what are you personally comfortable with? What is Joy? Lee?
Compatible - what do you all want?
Agreeable - what can you all agree on?
Practical - what practically works?
My gf and I also have a 0-5 rating system that helps us to navigate poly stressors. 0 is not at all bothered, totally cool. 2 is general poly pangs; nothing that won't improve with time. 3 is time to take it carefully. 4 is stressful, danger zone. 5 is a guideline dealbreaker and possible cause for breaking up.
So, for example, my gf going on a date these days would be a 0-2, depending on the person and circumstance. Dating someone I had an issue with of whatever kind might be a 3-4. Going for coffee for two hours with date? Around a 0. Going for a 9 hour fuck fest? 2-3. Weekend away? 4-5. Sleeping with someone and lying about it? 5. Moving someone in with us? Potential 5. We are clear about what we've signed up for, we'll discuss things as they arise, but nothing is pushed. We either want the same things, or we don't.
So, say you two used this system. Joy asks you, "How do you feel about Lee and me spending a weekend together?" You say "4-5". You agree to leave it for a month and rediscuss. If you're constantly giving honest 4s and 5s, it's time to slow down. Something isn't working. Only use this technique if you won't be tempted to treat it as a control mechanism. 4 does not mean Joy has to stop. It means she can see, clearly, you are stressed. She might decide that you'll always be stressed and will never accept polyamory. Or, she might be sympathetic and slow down. The idea is to give honest, measurable answers.
Either way, you have to get the agreements out on the table. Ten or so written agreements you can refer to. Things like set number of dates for you two vs those two, etc.
I have no idea how you've coped with this pace, but more power to you. Joy, I think, needs to take her head out of Distractionville with Lee and tell you what's really on her mind. You have to get out of being sweet, then passive aggressive, and just be honest. You are also entitled to grieve the MMF between you. You are also entitled to find it very difficult for a while.
Let us know how you guys get on.
