Kink Partner Confusion?

[Gibson]

I've been checking out the forums for the last few days, and been pondering my new situation (which is what brought me here in the first place). I have seen lots of great conversations, but nothing specifically pertaining to my situation. So here goes.

I have a loving relationship with my fiancee, Nadine. We love each other deeply and want to grow old together. Recently, we have been going through a bit of a rough patch (money problems, unemployment for the both of us, depression). It kinda came to a pivotal moment a few weeks ago, where Nadine expressed that I really needed to further understand and accept myself, and how I am wired be be a sub, and how she, on the other hand, also needed to accept her desire to be topped, specifically with ropes and flogging.

I am working hard to understand myself, my needs, and desires. She is, as well. It has greatly confused me.

We have a few friends in our lives who are openly poly. In the past, Nadine has said she understands poly, but doesn't need it in her life. She has even said I could go have sex with anyone I wanted, because she is not jealous in that way. She wants me to be happy. Now, as we are working to understand our personal wiring, Nadine says she wants the mental space and feeling of clarity that comes with being topped, and that she might want to seek that out with someone else, since I cannot give that to her. We generally have a peer relationship, not one of dominance in either direction, so I recognize this inability on my part.

We've talked about how a kink thing with someone outside of us could be possible. I started off suggesting some rules that were too restrictive for the level she wants. She wants kink, but does not believe she will be able to feel that mental space without having an emotional connection with the person. She agreed that this kink experience would be ok with no sex, no removal of clothing, no kissing, no genital stimulation. Basically, rope bondage, flogging and all that, with a person she has an emotional connection with. This doesn't sound like poly at all to me. This sounds like it could be an awesome super-close friend, who you might even say you love, but you don't have a romantic relationship with.

This is where things get weird...

Since we have had some really difficult, emotional discussions (particularly since I am more wired for monogamy than polyamory), Nadine occasionally has needed to physically leave for a few hours to let her emotions settle (leaving in tears, emotionally exhausted and needing to catch her breath). She has gone particularly to be with one of our few local friends who has some understanding of the situation, as he is kinky and poly.

I honestly believe she visited him for advice. But as I've been talking with Nadine, I've discovered he had straight-out offered himself to her as a kink partner. In another discussion they had over dinner, he actually asked her out on a date. These both happened with him knowing full well that my conversations with Nadine were nowhere near a point where it feels ok for someone else to ask her such questions. It feels disrespectful to me, to Nadine and to our relationship. Am I overreacting?

I know full well that when Nadine met him many years ago (before I met her), he wanted to date her. She was not into him in that way at all, and had to have the "not now, not ever" conversation. In the present day, I feel like he is pushing her towards an easy solution to her needs... a solution with him. Even if this is what Nadine wants in the end, the discussion is between her and me, not her and him and me. All this has now made me uncomfortable, and I don't have good feelings in his general direction. Nadine claims now that her feelings for him are unclear. I can't help but feel that he has opportunistically helped bring the situation farther along, faster than I would have liked.

The last conversation I had with Nadine was not specifically about kink, but more about her desires to be able to express her feelings for other people. Woah... not the conversation we were having a week earlier. If this is how she is feeling, ok then, but I'm starting to feel a bit ambushed, all things considered. So I've tried to ask her about what she does want. She said, more than friends, but beyond that she doesn't know.

I've pressed her for details (do you want to date, hold hands, kiss, have a boyfriend?), but she just gets mad at me every time I ask for specifics. She does not seem to desire sex with other people, so I know her desires don't extend quite into the poly discussions that I see on this board. But I remain confused. I can't agree to something if I don't know what I am agreeing to.

It has also been coming out more in the last few conversations that Nadine's previous relationships failed because her partners did not recognize her needs. I am being non-specific about what needs those are because I still don't think she herself knows.

So, I now find myself looking at this rationally. I love her. I want to be with her. I know she feels the same about me. I realize that I cannot simply tell her to completely close the door to warm feelings for other people, because if I do and she agrees, it could only lead to an even more horrible blowup later, which could easily lead to us splitting up.

I keep thinking that it's ok to have a kink partner, with "rules." But I am worried about it crossing into polyamory. I am not wired for poly. I don't disrespect it at all, but right at this moment I am not ready for it. I might be if it could be gradual. Actually it sounds kinda nice if I could get over my insecurities. But right now I am lost and confused. Nadine started off saying she wanted a kink partner, but now I have no idea what that means.

Any thoughts from this awesome forum?

 

[xmakina]

Goodness me. Quite a bit going on here! I've gone through and pulled out a few choice quotes that I feel I can help you address. Obviously, I only know as much as you've posted here, so take it all with a pinch of salt.

In the past, N has said she understands poly, but doesn't need it in her life. She has even said I could go have sex with anyone I wanted because she is not jealous in that way.

Basically, rope bondage, flogging and all with a person she has an emotional connection with. This doesn't sound like poly at all to me.

First of all, polyamory is about neither of these items. Polyamory is the development of strong, emotional and loving relationships. It's not about sex. That's swinging. And it's not about bondage. That's BDSM. From what you've said, the rope bondage is much more poly than the having sex with whoever you want.

These both happened with him knowing full well that my conversations with Nadine are nowhere near a point where it feels ok for someone else to ask her such questions. It feels like disrespect for me, for Nadine and for our relationship. Am I overreacting?

If it's deception and not something you're comfortable with, it's not poly. Another important aspect is full and complete disclosure of this kind of thing. He may have only said it as "this is an option," but Nadine should be talking to you about this before she gives an answer.

I press her for details (do you want to date, hold hands, kiss, have a boyfriend?), but she just gets mad at me every time I ask for specifics.

There's a very good chance that she doesn't know. If you're both wired for monogamy, then it's not surprising she doesn't know what she wants. This will come with time and experience.

I am worried about it crossing into polyamory.

You don't strike me as being 100% confident as poly, and as a result my suggestion is to talk to Nadine about this being a bad time for her to be wanting to explore polyamory.

Your relationship sounds very strained right now. Trust me, adding more people will not fix anything. You and Nadine need to come together and sort out your own relationship before getting involved with other people.

When you are in a good space, then Nadine can explore getting into a D/s relationship with this other guy.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

Hi, Gibson. Thanks for sharing.

First, I took note of the high general stress levels you guys have been under. Keep in mind that, under those conditions, we aren't always at our sharpest in thinking other things through. I suggest giving each other some slack in all this right now, recognizing that you're both a little on edge to start with. If things get better (I hope) some of these conversations and issues will get easier to deal with. Don't try to take on too much change at once.

Also, xmakina made several valid points:
1. There's a LOT going on here.
2. Getting into a good space with your lover has to come first.
3. Polyamory is about strong, loving, honest relationships with multiple people. (But so is monogamy, minus the extra people.)

Because everything is confusing right now, let me see if we can simplify it somewhat by breaking out the different elements to be thought about and addressed separately. If you can both get clear on things separately, then you can see how they fit together after that. Make sense?

First, there is the sexual needs mismatch, or, if you don't want to classify it as sexual, the submissive desires. But I recommend you consider these desires sexual in nature. (Maybe someone else will have a different take, we'll see.) I just think it will help simplify the thought process if you do.

I can relate well to this, because my mate has had somewhat similar needs in the past, and it's not really my style, either. A little play is fine and fun, but I have my limits in taking on some dominant role over anyone, especially a woman. But I understand the desire fairly well, and neither condone nor promote it.

In those games, the critical things are safety and trust. Because you love her, you need to trust that's she's safe. She needs to trust whoever her partner is in that completely.

That deep a level of trust is definitely better, and much more easily built, from a truly loving perspective, which leads me to my next point. 'Love' is a pretty slippery term. It has a lot of different meanings and ways of expression. You made some reference to 'romantic' love, for example. So it might be good to note that if Nadine required some form of 'love' to establish the necessary respect and trust to travel the BDSM path, that's not necessarily the same type of 'love' as the romantic love you have between you. But don't assume it couldn't take that turn either.

Either way, it's not a threat. REALLY, it isn't, because of the love you have for her, and your desire for her happiness and fulfillment, by standing with her, partnering with her on finding happiness, you are expressing your true love for her. It's more than words. It's actions. These are the things that bind us. Not words. Not concepts. Not labels. Actions.

What you build together out of love can never be threatened, except by yourselves.

So, as you put it at the end, she wants a kink partner. But in order for that to REALLY be beneficial it needs to be based on trust and respect, both important pieces of a loving relationship. And that's ok. It doesn't change what you have between you, unless you do something to make it change. But supporting and helping can only make it change for the better, from my experience.

I hope this helps some,
GS

 

[LovingRadiance]

One partner being insecure and not actively resolving their own insecurity issues ruins monogamous relationships on a regular basis. So it doesn't make a sound argument, imho, for why one is or is not polyamorous. That said, I agree that insecurity is a problem in polyamorous relationships, but no more or less then it is in monogamous relationships. The major difference I see (first hand) is that in a poly relationship there are more people dealing with it, so it tends to be pointed out to you more often.

But the truth is, no relationship is healthy at all until trust is established, and until you have addressed your own personal insecurities.

I highly advise checking out www.xeromag.com and reading his articles on polyamory, specifically the ones on insecurity. (Everyone ought to consider reading them, not just poly people.)

Even if your relationship remains monogamous, it will be improved if you learn how to manage your own personal issues.

As for BDSM, there are several threads on here that make it quite clear that trust is imperative in a BDSM relationship of any type. I would strongly advise that you understand, if you two are allowing in your relationship for Nadine to have another partner in BDSM, that she does need to feel a level of trust with them at least equal to what she has with you, if not more so, and that you need to able and willing to accept whatever it takes for that level of trust to be built, or she will be endangering herself.

 

[Lemondrop]

I have a loving relationship with my fiancee, Nadine. Recently, we have been going through a bit of a rough patch [...], and it kinda came to a pivotal moment a few weeks ago where Nadine expressed that I really need to further understand and accept myself, and how I am wired be be a sub, and she needs to accept her desire to be topped.

I think there were great suggestions already, so I'm just going to suggest that you find a BDSM-support group that meets near you, if you haven't already. That way, you could both feel like you are moving forward, even if you're not running out and picking a top, and you might not feel as much pressure to "get it done now." More education might help both of you figure out what you want/need.

... It feels like disrespect for me, for Nadine, and for our relationship.

... I'm starting to feel a bit ambushed... I ask her about what she wants. She says more than friends, but beyond that she doesn't know.

... I love her. I want to be with her, and I know she feels the same about me.

You have a lot of feelings going on here. I don't know you, so I'm sorry if I tell you things you already know, but I would suggest that when you talk to her, you tell her "I feel ambushed" and "I feel confused." "I feel" helps make it feel less like an attack or a criticism. "I feel like I'm being disrespected" sounds so much kinder and less dramatic than "I'm being disrespected" and helps keep the other party listening to you.

But the bottom line is that last quote-- you know she loves you. That's really the foundation, isn't it? You can build anything on that, if you work at it.

... I realize that I cannot simply tell her to completely close the door to warm feelings for other people, for if I do, and she agrees, it will only lead to an even more horrible blowup later which could easily lead to our split....

I keep thinking that it's ok to have a kink partner, with rules...but I am worried about it crossing into poly. I am not wired for poly. I am not ready for it. I might be if it can be gradual... I am lost and confused. Nadine started off saying she wants a kink partner... now I have no idea what that means...

I'm not sure you meant it this way, but you can't tell anyone to never have warm feelings for other people. That's just impossible. Maybe you're talking about "romantic love" feelings, but really, you have no control over that. All you can say is, "I would feel hurt if you [felt or did X]," and hope.

I don't think there's anything wrong with making "rules" that both of you agree to. I think "I am not wired for poly" is a very different statement from "It sounds kinda nice." Perhaps you would do better if you just stuck with, "I am not ready for opening up." That doesn't close off your options.

Maybe Nadine is feeling closed off? Perhaps it would help her to hear, "I know that you're feeling confused/unsure right now, and I'm here to support you. I want your ultimate happiness, and I want our relationship to be strong. Tell me how we can work this out; I'm ready to talk when you are; is there anything I can do to help you?" And perhaps you could offer to tell her what your ideal outcome would look like, in a safe and nonjudgmental way.

I'm just throwing out ideas. I could be completely off base here.

 

[Breathesgirl]

After reading through the other responses, I think just about everything has been covered. However, it might help both of you to sit down and define what polyamory, BDSM, love, etc., mean to each of you. These are all terms which have different meanings to different people. There are as many different forms of polyamory as there are relationships, as many different meanings for love as there are people who love, etc. A lot of times misunderstandings happen because the people having the discussion have totally different definitions.

I second the suggestion for the two of you to go to BDSM munches, brunches, workshops in order to help you better define what these things mean to you. The same goes for poly get-togethers and workshops.

I also second www.xeromag.com . It's a WONDERFUL site. Lots of great advice and analogies. The author also has a section on BDSM which you might want to check out.

It sounds as though you two are doing one thing right. You are COMMUNICATING with each other.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

These are all terms which have different meanings to different people. There are as many different forms of polyamory as there are relationships, as many different meanings for love as there are people who love, etc.

Now this is par excellence! I wonder if we could find some way to have this automatically added as a header to all posts.

Thanks, Breathes.

 

[Breathesgirl]

You're quite welcome. I belong to different communities, and that is one piece of advice which gets passed around from generation to generation, male/female, all races, creeds, colors and religions.

For the record, it's Breathes' girl. Breathes is my b/f/Sir, but since most nickname generators won't allow characters which aren't letters, numbers or an underscore, I can't put the apostrophe in there.

To make things easier, just call me Robin.

Off to use my spa day gift certificate! WOOT!

 

[sunnydee]

The last conversation I had with Nadine was about not specifically kink, but more about her desires to be able to express her feelings for other people. Woah...not the conversation we were having a week earlier. If this is how she is feeling, ok then, but I'm starting to feel a bit ambushed, all things considered. I press her for details (do you want to date, hold hands, kiss, have a boyfriend?), but she just gets mad at me every time I ask for specifics. She does not seem to desire sex with other people...so I know her desires don't extend quite into the poly discussions that I see on this board, but I remain confused. I can't agree to something if I don't know what I am agreeing to.

It sounds to me like Nadine wants intimacy and the freedom to explore it. I've had this discussion before with someone who was trying to make me define, and be specific, and kept trying to say it was "sex," and I remember feeling irritated and trapped, too.

I'm not going to argue with the definition others put on polyamory. I am just going to say that, for me, the freedom to explore intimacy where it arises is what poly is about. The OP, understandably, wants to feel safe, and seems to think that somehow knowing all the specifics and having rules will make the situation safe. IMO, letting go is "safer" than straining for a control that you really don't have, but it's unlikely that will happen here.

Good luck. I know this is tough. Better to work on this now than after you're married, at least.

 

[Thunderlizard]

There's another angle here, I think. We're primarily looking at this from the "Polyamorous people discussing kink" angle. It's important to remember that kink is much more than just sex, too. I'm not sure Nadine is clear on that. Maybe she is, but I feel like she's confused and thinking that kink and polyamory both are inextricably tied to sex. We know they're not, but they're often combined, aren't they?

From the kink point of view, most certainly there can be play without sexual contact. However, it's not as common for play to be done with the subject clothed. It CAN, certainly, but there's a vulnerability that goes with being only partially clad that lends itself to the individual dropping into subspace. Nudity is not required, though, let's be clear. There's a lot of psycho-sexual energy flying around, that's true. It's a very sensual experience for a lot of us.

The other thing that there needs to be a lot of in a kink relationship is TRUST... sound familiar? Yes, an emotional and psychological bond develops between a Top and a bottom, and this is where I certainly see the OP being concerned about it "developing" into polyamory.

The bond between a Top and a bottom is a lot like love. It's trust, mixed with dependence, mixed with selflessness. It's very much like romance. It sometimes comes from or develops into romantic love. That definitely is something to consider.

There are a lot of feelings floating around, there's a lot of confusion as well. Can I offer a thought? Have you considered a kink- and poly-friendly counselor, someone who won't focus on the alternative lifestyles, but rather on how these things are affecting your relationship? I feel like you really do care for Nadine. Show her that you want to ensure that the choices you make are healthy for you both. If she won't talk directly to you, perhaps an intermediary could help.

Best of luck to you both.

 

[Gibson]

Thanks for all the advice and help, everyone. It's been a crazy few weeks and I think the drama has finally settled down. Nadine and I took some time away from discussing anything relationship related, you know, to create a space where we don't have to be worried every 10 seconds about having yet another heated, all-night conversation. That time was genius. It gave us both time to think and process all that we had out on the table.

Nadine came clean about being depressed, emotionally wound up and needed stability in her life from a partner. I came clean on not being stable lately. I have been actively trying to come out of my own depression that I never knew I was in. Our flailing in this space led to her search for stability elsewhere, but that search seems to have ended with Nadine again finding that comfort in me again.

I know this doesn't change that she is kinky (I am too), is probably wired for poly (I need more time to ponder poly), but this does mean that for the moment, our exploration into very sharply changing our relationship space is indefinitely on hold. I think this is the right move for us right now.

I thank you folks for helping with new ideas and thoughts on the matter, and I will definitely stay tuned to the forums.

 

[Thunderlizard]

It sounds like you've made a responsible and mature choice to resist changing something just to change something. I have a good feeling about your future. My best wishes stay with you.