Husband's gf broke up w/him; now he wants to be mono

[bookbug]

I guess he figures that he's given enough. He tried to let me date his brother and it didn't work, so he wants to stop now. I see that he gave and tried, but I don't know what the solution is. Either way one or two people is going to be miserable . More than likely all three of us will be.

Don't be surprised when he gets mad because you are sad. He thinks making you and Mark stop will make him feel better. It won't for long. Basically, he wants you to stop loving Mark too.

I have never learned how to un-love someone.

As I mentioned previously, I have been in a similar situation. Like Mark, I was the one treated as expendable. The wife gave the ultimatums. While booting me out of their lives isn't what ended their marriage, the underlying selfish, non-empathetic psychology did.

I am sorry. I know how much this sucks.

Perhaps Neverwhere should be the one to break the news to Mark? Do not be the one to do his dirty work. You become Neverwhere's weapon in that scenario.

 

[FullofLove1052]

Maybe I can spin this a different way. Perhaps Neverwhere was never really accepting of you dating his brother, but he was tolerant because he did not want to control you or tell you whom to love. Perhaps he was concerned about you resenting him if he told you that he was not okay with it. Perhaps he feared losing you because of his real feelings on the subject. Maybe someone is telling him he is a damn fool for "sharing" a woman with his brother. Maybe he even tried to be okay with it and found that it was too much to take. It is easy to accept a situation before you get in to it, but it is hard to predict how you will feel while in the situation.

I think it is more than this situation with his ex-wife that his triggered this reaction. I would venture a guess that the recent events might have been the fire on fuse that set off the ticking bomb that was Neverwhere.

Do not encourage him to go to a counsellor under the guise of trying to get him to accept you and his brother being together. Bad move. What purpose does that serve him? That is one of what sounds like many issues: the drinking, the ex-wife, etc., that need to be addressed. He/she needs to work from a different angle because your relationship with his brother is not beneficial to him.

I had to learn that about our counselling. Working from the angle of spoon-feeding my husband poly and trying to make him tolerate it again meant we were at a standstill until we changed the course of action. Now that we have taken control and shifted it, we are making progress.

I am wishing you well. I know you are going through a tough time right now, and I am sorry about that. Remember this: trouble will not last always. You are weathering a storm, and hopefully when you get out of it, things will be better. Sending hugs your way.

Ry

 

[JadeDoor]

I am wishing you well. I know you are going through a tough time right now, and I am sorry about that. Remember this: trouble will not last always. You are weathering a storm, and hopefully when you get out of it, things will be better. Sending hugs your way.

Thank you so much for your insight. It really helps. I do believe we have many issues to work out. We are at the best point in our marriage, but still have much to talk about and work on.

Last night, Neverwhere told me his new gf gave him a different perspective on me and Mark. She didn't even mean to but it was through a conversation they were having. Neverwhere explained to her that eventually you come to be happy for the other person instead of focusing on the time they spend with someone else. Today he talked to me from work and said he had changed some of his thinking and is feeling much happier about poly. He said it's an entire way of life and no one can tell someone else how to live it.

Hmm... I am hopeful that we will get over this next hurdle, though it may take some time.

 

[WhatHappened]

I realize the decision to let me date Mark was a struggle for him, but months ago, when we started, Neverwhere talked about how he didn't want Mark to move out, and that he was happy for us dating. I'm not sure what changed. He said he always hated it and now he can't do it anymore. I don't fully believe him.

It seems to me the answer is right there.

The decision to have you date (and sleep with) his brother was a struggle for him. It sounds like he was never enthusiastically on board anyway.

Going to counseling with the idea the counselor is going to fix him and make him okay with his wife having sex with his brother is probably going to accomplish absolutely nothing, except maybe get the counselor a new yacht. Which is, of course, a good outcome for the counselor.

 

[JadeDoor]

It seems to me the answer is right there. The decision to have you date (and sleep with) his brother was a struggle for him. Sounds like he was never enthusiastically on board anyway. Going to counseling with the idea the counselor is going to fix him and make him okay with his wife having sex with his brother is probably going to accomplish absolutely nothing, except maybe get the counselor a new yacht. Which is, of course, a good outcome for the counselor.

I fully understand that you can't force someone into something. It was his own suggestion that he talk to our counselor about it.

While he was uncomfortable at the beginning, I saw him being truly happy for us as the months went on. Either way, nor sure what the solution is now. It seems everyone will be resentful somehow.

 

[Dstone]

I guess he figures that he's given enough. He tried to let me date his brother, and it didn't work, so he wants to stop now. I see that he gave and tried, but I don't know what the solution is. Either way, one or two people are going to be miserable. More than likely all three of us will be.

Is it just me here, or am I reading into this incorrectly? From all the posts and replies, I can almost see Neverwhere's new GF pushing him into thinking that your relationship with Mark is wrong, for some unforeseen reason. It could possibly be that she wants him to leave the relationship, and his own thoughts are in how to justify it. Maybe, and hopefully, I am wrong about this. But I would be trying to figure out what is pushing him in the background.

 

[JadeDoor]

Is it just me here, or am I reading into this incorrectly? From all the posts and replies, I can almost see your husband's new GF pushing him into thinking that your relationship with Mark is wrong, for some unforeseen reason. It could possibly be that she wants him to leave the relationship, and his own thoughts are in how to justify it. Maybe, and hopefully, I am wrong about this, but I would be trying to figure out what is pushing him in the background.

Do you mean Neverwhere's ex-wife Amanda? They are no longer dating but she did have a huge problem with me dating Mark, and I know she mentioned it to Neverwhere on numerous occasions.

His new gf of a couple weeks doesn't even know Mark and I are dating.

 

[Dstone]

Do you mean Neverwhere's ex-wife Amanda? They are no longer dating, but she did have a huge problem with me dating Mark, and I know she mentioned it to my husband on numerous occasions. His new gf of a couple weeks doesn't even know Mark and I are dating.

Perhaps. It just seems, from the outside, that something hidden is driving his thoughts in the background toward justifying him leaving, using Mark as the excuse, almost as if perhaps she had given him an ultimatum. Who knows? I know something just doesn't add up here, sobriety set aside.

 

[JadeDoor]

It just seems, from the outside, that something hidden is driving his thoughts in the background toward justifying him leaving, using Mark as the excuse.

I don't think Neverwhere is thinking of leaving me. The most that would happen is he'd make me choose between him and Mark. And that would be a mess, and make everyone resentful, but I don't think it would end our marriage. Neverwhere and I fought hard and worked a lot to have the relationship we have today. He's my best friend and I'm his. I don't think leaving me has crossed his mind.

 

[Dstone]

I don't think Neverwhere is thinking of leaving me. The most that would happen is he'd make me choose between him and Mark. And that would be a mess, and make everyone resentful, but I don't think it would end our marriage. Neverwhere and I fought hard and worked a lot to have the relationship we have today. He's my best friend and I'm his. I don't think leaving me has crossed his mind.

Like I said, I could have read into it all wrong completely. My own thoughts dwell on him trying to perhaps please Amanda to get back together with her by some means of you ending up with Mark... I do not know. I do not see your daily lives. It just seems to me that his sudden changes here lately were not based on sobriety so much, but something else, something that has resurfaced, bothering him deeply.

 

[JadeDoor]

I wanted to post an update for everyone. Thank you all for your advice and support. Neverwhere has done a lot of thinking these past few weeks and has decided he doesn't want to have Mark and me stop dating. He's come to a lot of epiphanies himself over the last few days and plans on taking with our counselor about how to stay in a good place. There have been a lot of changes for all of us in a short amount of time - ex wife moving in, sobriety, poly, etc. We kind of have to find our family's version of normal.

 

[bookbug]

Neverwhere has done a lot of thinking these past few weeks, and has decided he doesn't want to have Mark and me stop dating. He's come to a lot of epiphanies himself over the last few days, and plans on taking with our counselor about how to stay in a good place. There have been a lot of changes for all of us in a short amount of time - ex-wife moving in, sobriety, poly, etc. We kind of have to find our family's version of normal.

So glad to hear it! I am glad Neverwhere seems to be feeling better and able to think more carefully - carefully enough to have epiphanies! Good luck to all of you.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Glad to hear things are turning around. Some thoughts came into my head while reading back in the thread, and even if they're not relevant to the updated situation, I think they're pertinent.

Perhaps Neverwhere should be the one to break the news to Mark? Do not be the one to do his dirty work. You become Neverwhere's weapon in that scenario.

Are you suggesting that Neverwhere should be the one to break up his wife and his brother? Any interpretation of that scenario is negative. Either it comes across as him establishing ownership of his wife and managing her relationships for her, or else it comes across as her having so little respect for Mark that she doesn't have the decency to do it herself.

I don't think Neverwhere is thinking of leaving me... The most that would happen is he'd make me choose between him and Mark.

So, it was an empty threat. A "choose him or choose me" ultimatum is logically identical to "break up with me or break up with him." But an ultimatum only carries weight if it's really "break up with him, or I'll break up with you." If he won't break up with you, then it's just a manipulation tactic. Actually, that's what ultimatums are anyway: a way of manipulating someone else into giving you your way, without taking ownership for your own behaviour.

The only way to handle an ultimatum is to refuse to play the game:
"Choose him or choose me."
"No."
Game over.

 

[bookbug]

Are you suggesting that her husband should be the one to break up his wife and his brother? Any interpretation of that scenario is negative. Either it comes across as him establishing ownership of his wife and managing her relationships for her, or else it comes across as her having so little respect for Mark that she doesn't have the decency to do.

I get what you're saying, I really do. However, I have been in the role of Mark. While it was more long and drawn out than Jade's situation, what would happen between the married couple behind closed doors was conversations in which the wife (who had actively promoted our relationship configuration until she decided otherwise) would decide what part of the relationship between the husband and me needed to be dismantled. She'd do it piecemeal. She would scream betrayal and issue ultimatums until her husband could no longer stand the emotional abuse and would come to tell me what her new rules were.

Here was the effect on me: I knew that the husband didn't choose this course of action willingly. So not only was I hurt by the new rule (usually some forbidden action), but it also caused me extreme pain to see him so coerced. I felt worse for him than I did for myself, and that caused me to lose sight of my own pain and ignore it at my peril.

Why did we capitulate? In the beginning, the wife would claim that she just needed a little time to adjust. It seemed reasonable at first. However, she never adjusted, and instead continually dismantled. Perhaps it would have been easier if the wife had just issued the ultimatum and the husband had been able to come to me, explain the situation between them, and expressed that he had made the choice to work on his marriage. But it didn't play out like that.

What I ultimately came to realize was that each time my love was forced to further reject me, it made her feel important. My pain was evidence of his love for her.

So yeah, I have an issue with one person coercing another to hurt another lover. A huge issue.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Bookbug, that makes sense, but having a third party do the breakup is still dysfunctional. To fix dysfunction, you have to stop piling dysfunction on. The wife you describe was playing a dysfunctional game and the husband was playing in her game, much like the spouse of an alcoholic who endlessly covers for them. It's a devastating game to be dragged into.

You have every right to be hurt and angry and not want to see that play out for anyone (yourself included) again.

But the answer is for people to learn to express healthy boundaries within relationships, not to promote other dysfunctional behaviors that could escalate the problem. Does that make sense?

 

[bookbug]

That makes sense, but having a third party do the breakup is still dysfunctional. To fix dysfunction, you have to stop piling dysfunction on. The wife you describe was playing a dysfunctional game, and the husband was playing in her game, much like the spouse of an alcoholic who endlessly covers for them. It's a devastating game to be dragged into. You have every right to be hurt and angry and not want to see that play out for anyone (yourself included) again.

But the answer is for people to learn to express healthy boundaries within relationships, not to promote other dysfunctional behaviors that could escalate the problem. Does that make sense?

I totally agree with you. It makes perfect sense. The trick is to recognize when the line has been crossed from routine to dysfunctional, before you find that there are no non-dysfunctional answers to be had. For us, the change from what seemed healthy and happy to sheer batshit crazy was slow and insidious. And when you have somebody issuing hurtful ultimatums, the person in the middle, like Jade in this thread, is simply not left with any options that are not on some level dysfunctional.

The thing of it is, in the relationships between Jade, Neverwhere and Mark, there are actually two sets of agreements in play. The one between Jade and Mark, and the one between Jade and Neverwhere, in which agreed to allow the nature of their configuration to change toward poly. So Neverwhere breaks his agreement, thereby forcing Jade to break her agreement with Mark, and through coercion, no less. While I acknowledge and agree that it would be dysfunctional for Neverwhere to to break up with Mark for Jade, because it is he that has caused the break up, he has some responsibility, in this case especially, because the guy in question is his brother, and they all live together.

So yeah, it sucks, and her situation struck a nerve with me. I am glad it appears that things have taken a turn for the best with them.

For me, the only non-dysfunctional answer was to leave. A year later, the husband separated from his wife. They are divorcing.

 

[LovingRadiance]

For us, the change from what seemed healthy and happy to sheer batshit crazy was slow and insidious.

While I acknowledge and agree that it would be dysfunctional for Neverwhere to to break up with Mark for Jade, because it is he that has caused the breakup, he has some responsibility, and in this case especially because the guy in question is his brother, and they all live together.

Too often it does seem to go slowly, insidiously. I concur.

On the next piece, I would say she has an option that isn't dysfunctional (all arbitrary for the thread, but maybe purposeful to mention for someone who comes in to read): Jade can tell Neverwhere he needs to deal with Mark regarding his break in the agreement and moving out, and tell him she isn't agreeing to break her agreement.

One of the hardest but best moves I made with Maca was when I told him that while I respected his right to be a dick, I wasn't going to participate. I refused to break up with GG at his request. I pointed out to him that he could take that as not choosing him, or he could realize that was the same response I would give GG if he requested I leave Maca.

"No."

I don't give up friends at the request of other friends (or partners), and I won't give up partners at the request of other friends (or partners), because my relationship with any one person is mine.

I also pointed out to Maca that when we were first dating, someone I love dearly tried to play that card with him. When someone gives me a "me or them" ultimatum, they automatically lose, because regardless of their position or role in my life, they clearly don't respect me as the person I am, or they never would have made that ultimatum.

Obviously with Maca, and it's true of all people who have considered giving that ultimatum to me, I will tell them, "This is an ultimatum I don't accept. My rule is, whoever presses it, loses. So I hope you will back down and choose another direction."

In Maca's case, he remembered. But my dear friend didn't back down, and I walked away from that friendship. It hurt. A lot. But I don't regret it. She was wrong. Maca took that warning and chose a different path. I am fairly confident that he hasn't regretted it. I know I haven't.

I wouldn't have been a "bitch" to Neverwhere. I wouldn't have gotten snotty or nasty with him. But I would have told him that I wasn't willing to deal with these types of ultimatums. Give him time to calm down and set a date to rediscuss.

I sure as hell wouldn't have agreed to breaking up with Mark at Neverwhere's request. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have come to a break up. They are brothers. That would be a damn near impossible nightmare. But I would have stood my ground and let Neverwhere know that the havoc wreaked was going to have to be done by him.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

So Neverwhere breaks his agreement, thereby forcing Jade to break her agreement with Mark, and through coercion, no less.

Coerce, yes. Force, no. He can issue all the ultimatums he wants, but he cannot force her to break her agreement with Mark. That is her choice and always will be. The worst he can do is walk away, which is his own choice to make, if it's the right one for him.

Actually, not only "should" he not break up with Mark for her, but he "can" not. She has to agree to it, and then it's she who is breaking up with him. Her husband is not her owner or her guardian. He does not have the right, legal or otherwise, to speak on her behalf, unless she's in a coma.

Anyone can go up to any of my partners and declare that I'm breaking up with them. That doesn't make it true. None of my partners would accept that coming from any mouth but my own.

Some people are manipulative and coercive, but they only have the ability to manipulate and coerce you if you allow them. At any point, you have the right to simply say "No."

Like LR, my policy always was that the person giving the ultimatum automatically loses, simply on principle. But recently, I've come to realize that even that gives them too much power. My new policy is just to say "No," and drop it there. If they choose to leave because I refuse to be manipulated, then so much the better for me.

 

[bookbug]

Too often it does seem to go slowly, insidiously. I concur.

On the next piece, I would say she has an option that isn't dysfunctional... she can tell Neverwhere he needs to deal with his brother regarding his break in the agreement, and moving out, and tell him she isn't agreeing to break her agreement.

One of the hardest, but best moves I made with Maca was when I told him that while I respected HIS right to be a dick. I wasn't going to participate. I refused to break up with GG at his request. I pointed out to him, he could take that as not choosing him OR he could realize that was the SAME response I would give GG if he reqeusted I leave Maca. No.
I don't give up friends at the request of other friends (or partners) and I won't give up partners at the request of other friends (or partners). Because my relationship with any one person is mine.
I also pointed out to Maca that when we were FIRST dating, someone I love dearly tried to play that card with him.
When someone gives me a "me or them" ultimatum, they automatically lose. BECAUSE regardless of their position or role in my life;
they clearly don't respect ME as the person I am or they never would have made that ultimatum.
With Maca, and it's true of all people who have considered giving that ultimatum to me, I will tell them, "This is an ultimatum I don't accept. My rule is, whoever presses it, loses. So I hope you will back down and choose another direction."
In Maca's case, he remembered. My dear friend didn't back down, and I walked away from that friendship. It hurt. A lot. But I don't regret it. She was wrong. Maca took that warning and chose a different path. I am fairly confident that he hasn't regretted it. I know I haven't.
I wouldn't have been a "bitch" to Neverwhere. I wouldn't have gotten snotty or nasty with him. But, I would have told him that I wasn't willing to deal with these types of ultimatums. Give him time to calm down and set a date to rediscuss.
But I sure as hell wouldn't have agreed to breaking up with Mark at his request. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have come to a breakup. They are brothers. That would be a damn near impossible nightmare. But I would have stood my ground and let him know that the havoc wreaked was going to have to be done by him.

It is awesome you had the strength to stand up like that. In my case, the husband was inexperienced. They had gone from a very traditional marriage to experimentation at her request. He did stand up and tell her he would not choose (despite the fact that we kept trying to make the situation livable by yielding to her ever-escalating demands). He never chose, nor requested that I leave. In fact, he was devastated when I did. I do give him lots of credit for that, as her emotional abuse was horrific.

 

[bookbug]

Coerce, yes. Force, no. He can issue all the ultimatums he wants, but he cannot force her to break her agreement with Mark. That is her choice and always will be. The worst he can do is walk away, which is his own choice to make if it's the right one for him.

Actually, not only "should" he not break up with Mark for her, but he "can" not. She has to agree to it, and then it's she who is breaking up with him. Her husband is not her owner or her guardian. He does not have the right, legal or otherwise, to speak on her behalf, unless she's in a coma.

Anyone can go up to any of my partners and declare that I'm breaking up with them. That doesn't make it true. None of my partners would accept that coming from any mouth but my own.

Some people are manipulative and coercive. But they only have the ability to manipulate and coerce you if you allow them. At any point, you have the right to simply say "no."

Like LR, my policy always was that the person giving the ultimatum automatically loses, simply on principle. But recently, I've come to realize that even that gives them too much power. My new policy is just to say "No," and drop it there. If they choose to leave because I refuse to be manipulated, then so much the better for me.

I agree with you logically. Sometimes it just doesn't "feel" that way. It's especially tough, I think, to stand up to a spouse when there are children involved.

My couple had multiple issues before I joined them. Neither of them fully understood how significant they were. After I joined, there was no ignoring them anymore. I found out later, that after I left (against the husband's wishes), he told his wife that the fact that I would never hurt him by making him choose was significant.