Anyone know how to deal with something like this?

[Mirky]

Hey everyone, I'm fairly new to polyamory and I have an issue with jealousy. I realize that this is very common especially since my wife and our new girlfriend, for lack of a better term, have lots of NRE.

When the three of us spend time together, I'm usually very happy. Whether we go out or spend time on the couch together watching something, we all hug and massage each other and we're like the image of polyamory we'd all like to see on television, hehe.

Here's a problem that I'm having though. If I decide to head off to bed before they do, I lie there and feel jealous and cannot sleep and feel just horrible... this happened to me just last night and it culminated in me going back out and asking my wife if she was coming to bed. I felt like she had waited for me to go to bed so that they could spend time together and it made me just feel like crap. Best thing would have been for both of them to come to bed, but my daughter is at home for the summer and we're not exactly 'out' to her yet.

I might have been a bit snappy with her, and she came quickly to bed apologizing because she realized that I felt left out. I immediately felt shame at what I had done and apologized myself for acting that way, she was very understanding to my feelings which means a lot. I also went out and apologized to our girlfriend and she claims that she didn't even realize that I'd done anything untoward.

Well, I do trust both of them completely and they should be allowed to have a bit of time alone, shouldn't they? I don't think they're purposefully leaving me out of things, or plotting my removal or anything like that. This made me realize that the problem was mine and through reading I found someone that mentioned that most feelings like this come from something in our past and I had to dig into my mind.

I was married once before and my former wife and I did not get along very well. We fought a lot and toward the end, we sort of hated each other. I recalled that the end of our relationship came when I went to bed one night... woke up after a little while to find she wasn't there and then I walked out to find her and a friend of ours on our couch. Even though our relationship was horrible and nearly over, it felt like a horrible betrayal to me. I think this has stuck with me all this time and my feelings when my wife and girlfriend are alone while I'm in bed stem from this event.

I'm hoping that finding this cause will help me in itself, at least I know what I'm really upset about but I'm not sure how to combat this. I really don't want to be a problem in our relationship, so I want to do what I can here. I'll talk to them about this as well but do any of you know any techniques I can use to try and get this irrationality out of my head? I have no real feelings for my ex-wife anymore, I haven't for years and I hate that she is doing this to me even now... any ideas will be very helpful.

 

[PolyinPractice]

Suck it up. They probably ARE trying to leave you out of things once in a while. That's okay; they should have alone time. Just like you and your wife should. Just like you and your girlfriend should.

By the way, is it really "our" girlfriend; our is it "her" girlfriend; and you are tagging along or insisting she has to date you both to be involved?

 

[Mirky]

Suck it up. They probably ARE trying to leave you out of things once in a while. That's okay; they should have alone time. Just like you and your wife should. Just like you and your girlfriend should.

By the way, is it really "our" girlfriend; our is it "her" girlfriend; and you are tagging along or insisting she has to date you both to be involved?

Suck it up... that's what I'm trying to do.

I fully expect and accept them wanting to leave me out once in a while, I have no problem accepting that on a rational level, it is the irrational problem I have (my own problem, not theirs) that I'm trying to deal with. I'm certainly not saying that I expect them to involve me all the time in everything they do.

Our situation is unique, as I'm sure most are, and I'm not trying to force a label on anyone but we have decided to call her "our" girlfriend, even though this initial relationship started with my wife and her being long time friends and it evolving into something more. I have also been a very close friend to our girlfriend but kept a respectable distance, as husbands usually should when dealing with your wife's best friend, and we've certainly flirted with each other as well, which I kept completely innocent, not understanding yet the situation between the two of them. Our sexual relationship started with the three of us as well, though I have given them my approval to do as they want whenever they wish and if they want to involve me, it is completely their choice.

I understand that the two of them (my wife especially) have a lot of NRE, which does leave me feeling a little less valued at times, but I think my wife is doing a great job of keeping me happy in our private time, so I've pretty much delt with that.

I think our girlfriend and I will get closer now that we're in this relationship and both of them seem to want that as well, but I certainly am not trying to force myself into their relationship.

I'm really not trying to blame them for anything. I felt immediate guilt for what I did and apologized to both of them, they are both wonderful. I'm looking for advice dealing with my jealousy issue which has nothing to do with them really.

 

[Marcus]

By the way, is it really "our" girlfriend; our is it "her" girlfriend; and you are tagging along or insisting she has to date you both to be involved?

This is an important question regarding how we view relating to people. I personally find that a group or couple can't date a person, it is merely a misunderstanding based on wanting everyone to feel included. In reality, a relationship is between two individuals. I recognize that the groups or couples those individuals are in can certainly influence the nature of the individual relationship, but it doesn't change the fact that each relationship should be managed on its own merits and challenges.

This team dating approach puts unnecessary pressure on the idea that everyone should adore everyone else equally. If you view your relationship with your wife and your relationship with her girlfriend as distinct, then it can be easier to deal with the fact that they are different in so many ways.

I found someone that mentioned that most feelings like this come from something in our past and I had to dig into my mind.

All of our life events in the past shape how we react to all of our life events in the future. The situation with your wife sounds traumatic, but I wouldn't spend too much time in trying to find a specific cause for the issues you are dealing with now. If you are interested in figuring out why you are feeling insecure it is a good idea to work with a therapist on such things. You will most likely find that it stems from patterns in your life which have helped to shape your perceptions, and not one or two bad experiences causing a direct reaction.

I'll talk to them about this as well but do any of you know any techniques I can use to try and get this irrationality out of my head?

One thing that might help is to get out in front of this situation so that it doesn't feel like something that is out of your control.

Try to put in an effort to recognize their NRE as something that is important and totally natural. What I mean is, take the opportunity to offer them some alone time. Tell them that you're going to take the kid out to dinner and a movie so that they can get some time alone, avoid texting or hassling them, and make it something positive.

This way, they get what they want, and you get to be a part of it. Instead of feeling insecure in your bed you are helping foster something beautiful between your wife and her new love. Turn it into a positive thing. This might make you feel like you have a bit more control over your situation and it will make both of them feel appreciated and cared for... thus encouraging a positive relationship between you and both of them.

Basically, work on practicing compersion.

 

[Marcus]

I lie there and feel jealous and cannot sleep and feel just horrible

Also (and this isn't an either/or situation) make sure you are asking for what you want. If you desire time with one or both of them then voice it. Depending on how you guys work together you might give them some notice "I'd like the three of us to spend some time together tonight. I can suggest the kid have a sleepover at her friends house.. what do you think?"

Practice being clear about what you would like, and I suggest being specific as above and avoiding general requests like "Show me more affection" or the like. Keep your requests actionable.

Certainly if you are working time for them to be alone into the routine you will find that everyone is happier and more interested in making time for you. I don't mean to say that acts of compersion should be a tactic for getting what you want, but that it does have the wonderful side effect of making people more likely to view your requests positively.

 

[Mirky]

Your posts have given me a bit to think about on the "girlfriend" issue. While we consider her to be our girlfriend, the romantic relationship is definitely more her and my wife, though that's not to say that she and I don't have romantic feelings as well. We certainly all love each other and we've always hung out together and I hope this will continue.

I feel I should talk to my wife and girlfriend about this and if they need more time, I'll give it to them. Honestly, I've noticed that when I do this, I get more love and affection from my wife as well as from the girlfriend, so I really don't mind doing it - again, on a rational level - but my irrational mind is still the problem.

I'll take everything you've said in mind and use it to help me get to the right place here. I think our relationship can be a very caring three way relationship and I'd love to try and get there some day but I'm also not going to keep score on time spent with anyone, nor expect them to.

 

[LovingRadiance]

The key to understanding what Marcus was saying;
is that EVEN IF you live as a triad "three way relationship"
There ARE duo relationships. The one between you and your wife. The one between her and the girlfriend. The one between you and the girlfriend.
EACH of those has to grow and be nurtured independently. Each is like a part of a garden.
You have a garden, you plant peas, carrots and tomatoes. Each has it's OWN watering schedule and pruning needs. The garden as a whole won't be beautiful and productive unless you focus your attention on the care and maintenance of the individual plants AND the plant groups.

So in your case; each individual person and each duo. If you focus your attention on doing the care and maintenance of the individuals and the duos-the triad will be a beautiful productive whole.

Does that make sense?

If you try to just focus on the triad, or the whole garden, you won't get a beautiful thing;because you aren't meeting the needs of each plant or each type of plant.

 

[Marcus]

If you try to just focus on the triad, or the whole garden, you won't get a beautiful thing;because you aren't meeting the needs of each plant or each type of plant.

I generally find analogies to be dead weight, but this one is on target. Consider this stolen for any posts in which I decide to express this particular point

 

[sparklepop]

Hi Mirky,

I think the advice given here is wonderful so far and it seems like you are taking it in and thinking about it. I just wanted to add a few things in the hope of helping you to achieve clarity in your situation.

I just read through your earlier thread. It seems like this situation has not been going on for very long? A few months maybe?

A few things concerned me. In your earlier thread, did you say that your wife admitted to you that she was more on the lesbian side of bisexual? And that your joint girlfriend is primarily a lesbian? This raises major, major alarm bells for me. You also said in your earlier thread that your wife had an issue with you and the girlfriend having sex alone? You posted that comment about a month ago - does that still stand?

However, another thing that concerns me is that in your last thread, you said that you and your wife decided to refer to her as your joint girlfriend. Is the girlfriend also on board with that? The biggest tell here is if she refers to you as her boyfriend.

Another comment I must make is that as a woman who is primarily lesbian, I can tell you that women uber-bond. Women talk and talk and talk. Two women are often able to have a very different kind of relationship to a man and a woman, or two men. No better or worse, just different. I don't say this to freak you out - I say it to reassure you. The way that they are merging is very common between women, especially if this is your wife's first, or if it's been a very long time since she's been with a woman (at least 10 years, from what I can gather?).

Certainly, as others have said, relationships are about two people. The triad part only refers to the overlap of involvement when it's the three of you. The triad part is a separate entity in itself.

I've been involved in a triad and it can be a genuinely beautiful thing. However, it can become very messy very fast when the three people involved aren't entirely forthright and completely clear on what kind of relationships are growing within the group. It's especially messy when the weight of feelings are unbalanced, and when people have a different idea of what the relationship will look like. It can also be fun and experimental at the start, but there can be a lot of unspoken pressure in triad relationships.

I have been in two poly situations where I have felt pressured to include another person through a) confusion / inexperience and b) fear of being vetoed. On both occasions, I felt steamrolled into situations and relationships that I wouldn't have sought out if the women I loved were not in the picture. I also sent mixed messages and once any interest I had in the beginning faded, I didn't convey this as firmly as I should have done. Simply put - just because the girlfriend says she's happy for you to be there, doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. Furthermore, you seem to have the expectation that they should be able to spend 'a little bit' of time together... I wonder if the girlfriend has the expectation that the three of you will only spend a 'little bit' of time together?

I am not saying this *is* the case for the three of you, but given some of the context in your earlier thread, it seems like a safe and open discussion needs to be had. The girlfriend needs to feel safe from veto and pressure if you want her to be honest. You also have to be able to hear it. If, on the other hand, the girlfriend genuinely does want you involved in XYZ way and genuinely wants some form of relationship with you, that should put your mind at ease. Ideally, you'll all have an open chat. However, you can use techniques such as writing down your ideals or visions separately and then reading them out together. This can highlight inconsistencies and truths.

I know you came here for help with the jealousy/envy aspect, but I do feel that it wouldn't be right to advise you on building your own security when there are red flags occurring that need to be dealt with first. Often, knowing the truth of a situation brings its own security, because there is a certain comfort in aligning reality with expectation.

 

[Mirky]

I think the advice given here is wonderful so far and it seems like you are taking it in and thinking about it. I just wanted to add a few things in the hope of helping you to achieve clarity in your situation.

Thank you... I am at least a bit confused. This is new to all three of us and we're all trying to understand how to deal with it.

I just read through your earlier thread. It seems like this situation has not been going on for very long? A few months maybe?

That is correct, though we've all been good friends for quite a while - my wife and the girlfriend being best friends.

A few things concerned me. In your earlier thread, did you say that your wife admitted to you that she was more on the lesbian side of bisexual? And that your joint girlfriend is primarily a lesbian? This raises major, major alarm bells for me. You also said in your earlier thread that your wife had an issue with you and the girlfriend having sex alone? You posted that comment about a month ago - does that still stand?

My wife did say that, though just last night, she said she thought she might be "pansexual" (which she defined as being attracted to both men and women equally). Believe me that the "lesbian" comment raised red flags with me too, but what can you do about someone else's sexual preferences? She does seem to desire sex with both of us equally, at least and wants to continue the threesomes at least occasionally, which is probably all we can handle, lol. She also came off of the hard stance against me and the girlfriend having sex, she said she reconsidered and it was up to the girlfriend.

However, another thing that concerns me is that in your last thread, you said that you and your wife decided to refer to her as your joint girlfriend. Is the girlfriend also on board with that? The biggest tell here is if she refers to you as her boyfriend.

She does, though she also says that she doesn't like putting labels on anything and we should just be what we are, which I do understand. After some thought, I've come to the understanding that there are 4 relationships here. My wife and I are still very romantic and actually more sexual than we were before this began. My wife and our girlfriend are also romantic and sexual, though how much I don't know exactly, as I'm usually not involved. The girlfriend and I are very good friends and while not strongly romantic, we are not without something of a romantic bond and we do seem to find each other attractive sexually. I feel that over time, we could grow closer - as I have always kept my wife's best friend at a bit of distance... after all, she's probably who my wife vented to when angry at me. Then there is the triad - which seems very comfortable most of the time, until my last "outburst" which is all my fault. I like to think I'm philosophically beyond the jealousy, but I'm having some trouble with the reality of it.

Another comment I must make is that as a woman who is primarily lesbian, I can tell you that women uber-bond. Women talk and talk and talk. Two women are often able to have a very different kind of relationship to a man and a woman, or two men. No better or worse, just different. I don't say this to freak you out - I say it to reassure you. The way that they are merging is very common between women, especially if this is your wife's first, or if it's been a very long time since she's been with a woman (at least 10 years, from what I can gather?).

Yes. I appreciate the reassurance. They talk a lot... beyond my abilities but I do understand that women do this... they don't have to be straight or lesbian, or anything, they just do it. I like talking to them too but at a certain point, I have to walk away for a while and do something a bit more manly to get my head right.

I have been in two poly situations where I have felt pressured to include another person through a) confusion / inexperience and b) fear of being vetoed. On both occasions, I felt steamrolled into situations and relationships that I wouldn't have sought out if the women I loved were not in the picture. I also sent mixed messages and once any interest I had in the beginning faded, I didn't convey this as firmly as I should have done. Simply put - just because the girlfriend says she's happy for you to be there, doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. Furthermore, you seem to have the expectation that they should be able to spend 'a little bit' of time together... I wonder if the girlfriend has the expectation that the three of you will only spend a 'little bit' of time together?

This is a hard one. Our girlfriend probably talks the least of us... somewhat because she is having family issues, I think, so she's not around as much as she probably will be right now. They have both told me repeatedly that it was all up to me, which I never asked for and I came up with the full idea of us trying this. My wife pressured this a bit but told me that she was my wife and would stay with me no matter what. I do feel, after reading what you said, that I should reassure them that I have no desire to veto anything and also try to clarify that she really wants me around. I think she does but this is all so new and strange to all of us - I hope she does.

Right after I wrote "a little bit", I felt that it was a bad way to say it. They should have plenty of time together. We've talked and for now, we want to try and have things be "organic" as my wife puts it and we'll just try and spend time as comes naturally to us all. If this doesn't work, we might try splitting things up more or something. I do need to clarify how much she wants the three of us to be together as well. We've always gone out together and hung out together but there is definitely a new dynamic at play and we need to figure that out. I usually enjoy alone time and this whole change to our lives has made me feel like I want to be with my wife more, but I have to fight that. They're both very understanding to my issues with all of this and I try to be to theirs as well.

you can use techniques such as writing down your ideals or visions separately and then reading them out together. This can highlight inconsistencies and truths.

This is interesting, and I might try to get them to do this with me.

I know you came here for help with the jealousy/envy aspect, but I do feel that it wouldn't be right to advise you on building your own security when there are red flags occurring that need to be dealt with first. Often, knowing the truth of a situation brings its own security, because there is a certain comfort in aligning reality with expectation.

Sounds good... I have started trying to picture the two of them together and feeling good about it, as well as smiling as an exorcise to get my brain synapses working differently. I know a lot of my issues are when I try to go to bed and I'm not sure how to deal with this except for just not going to bed... not really feasible, I guess. I think I'm going to have to force myself to just go to sleep and try to control my panic feelings. This is hard but I really like what we all have and I'd like for it to work.

Thanks so much for the help!

 

[LovingRadiance]

I generally find analogies to be dead weight, but this one is on target. Consider this stolen for any posts in which I decide to express this particular point

Thanks Marcus. I hope you greatly enjoy the stolen goods. LOL!

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Bedtime and Before-care

I think that the other posters have made excellent points and generated some very good discussion about the nature of relationships and the dynamics between the three of you.

I wanted to make a few points about bedtime and security/insecurity.

For me, bedtime can be a time when my anxieties surface and can whirl around in my mind - as I am not distracted by other activities. Being "tucked in" and cuddled while I am going to bed can help ease those anxieties. I used to get irritated when MrS would say that he was coming to bed...and then didn't...and didn't. We learned that I really didn't care if he came to bed, I just wanted his attention for the last minutes of my waking day. Now, I can ask either (or both) of my boys for a "cuddle-tucking" and fall asleep feeling secure and calm. Then they get up and go about their evening/night (we are on different schedules, so they are rarely going to bed when I am).

Another thing that I noticed, when Dude started dating, was that I do much better if we have some time BEFORE he turns his attentions to someone else (re-connection time afterwards is good too, but "before-care" lets me go into time without him from the best frame of mind). As time goes on the amount of before/after care needed has dropped off dramatically - just of few minutes of undivided attention can do the trick now - and sometimes I don't even need that, but can always ask for it when I do.

Your needs may vary, but the situation IS new - don't be afraid to ask for reassurance/attention when you need it.

JaneQ

 

[Mirky]

I wanted to make a few points about bedtime and security/insecurity.

For me, bedtime can be a time when my anxieties surface and can whirl around in my mind - as I am not distracted by other activities. Being "tucked in" and cuddled while I am going to bed can help ease those anxieties. I used to get irritated when MrS would say that he was coming to bed...and then didn't...and didn't. We learned that I really didn't care if he came to bed, I just wanted his attention for the last minutes of my waking day. Now, I can ask either (or both) of my boys for a "cuddle-tucking" and fall asleep feeling secure and calm. Then they get up and go about their evening/night (we are on different schedules, so they are rarely going to bed when I am).

Another thing that I noticed, when Dude started dating, was that I do much better if we have some time BEFORE he turns his attentions to someone else (re-connection time afterwards is good too, but "before-care" lets me go into time without him from the best frame of mind). As time goes on the amount of before/after care needed has dropped off dramatically - just of few minutes of undivided attention can do the trick now - and sometimes I don't even need that, but can always ask for it when I do.

Your needs may vary, but the situation IS new - don't be afraid to ask for reassurance/attention when you need it.

JaneQ

Thank you for addressing my original question, lol. No offense to everyone else, as your advice is great and valued but this is what I need help with in the now.

Taking some of the offered advice, tonight I told them they should spend time together and I took my daughter to see "Godzilla"... well, I slept through a lot of it, but we had a good time and it mostly kept me distracted. I am home now and I guess this will be the real test. I'm going to try to keep smiling, and if I think of them, I will try to stay positive.

I'm a little disappointed in the wife, as I did ask her specifically to let me know if she was coming home or not, and she didn't. She is not very good at doing this. Oh well, I guess I need to suck it up, and just leave the light on in case she does.

Being a man, I hate to say this but I also like to cuddle before bed. My wife isn't much of a cuddler but just having her there and feeling her breathing beside me is enough. Nights like this, when the bed is empty, along with my personal issue with going to bed in this sort of situation, are going to be the hardest to get used to.

Thanks again.

 

[Mirky]

Also (and this isn't an either/or situation) make sure you are asking for what you want. If you desire time with one or both of them then voice it. Depending on how you guys work together you might give them some notice "I'd like the three of us to spend some time together tonight. I can suggest the kid have a sleepover at her friends house.. what do you think?"

This is good advice. We are trying to be organic in everything and just spend time together naturally, as we always have but I can see where these requests could be great if things get to a point where I start feeling too left out, or any of us for that matter. I really think we would all be happy to do this for any of the rest of us. I really do think we're all in love.

Practice being clear about what you would like, and I suggest being specific as above and avoiding general requests like "Show me more affection" or the like. Keep your requests actionable.

Also great, though I hope I wouldn't just say something like that... I'd have to be feeling pretty desperate to do that.

Certainly if you are working time for them to be alone into the routine you will find that everyone is happier and more interested in making time for you. I don't mean to say that acts of compersion should be a tactic for getting what you want, but that it does have the wonderful side effect of making people more likely to view your requests positively.

I have already found this to be true. It makes sense that giving them what they want will make them more open to giving me what I want.

Thanks so much, and if you read above, I actually took your advice and took my daughter to a movie so they could have alone time tonight. Seems to have worked out pretty well. My mother had already took her to dinner, but we got some quality time as well.