Empathy is killing me

B

booboofish

New member
Dear all,

I'm new here and I'll try to keep it short so that maybe someone will respond :).

I'm in a 2 year poly relationship with my amazing boyfriend. We've been through a lot together, but ultimately I think its made us stronger. He has had more outside partners than I have, so I think I've worked through more of my jealousy issues than he. I hardly ever feel jealous anymore (ie Ive met his partners, had them sleep in my bed, etc) and I often feel happy when hes enjoying time with other people because I know it makes him happy.

However, I'm just starting to get involved with more outside people and its been a different experience. First of all, he seems to always dislike the people I am with (calling them names, questioning my choices, etc). That is always hard to deal with. Then he seems really distant whenever I talk to him about having sex with others (we have a full disclosure policy). I know not to expect him to suddenly be *jealousy-fee* because I remember how much of a process it was for me...but at the same time, I feel like I got over it a lot faster and learned to turn it into something positive. I'm sure jealousy is different for different people, but sometimes I feel like he's not really trying to deal with it, or I feel like I'm being punished after spending a night with someone. It's gotten to the point where I'm questioning whether its even worth it for me to see other people, because I hate upsetting him and feeling this way.

The problem I'm having is that my boyfriend always SAYS he's fine and okay after I sleep with someone, but he acts differently and it makes me feel panicked. I really really care for him and it kills me to see him upset due to something I've done. At the same time, being poly is really important to me and not something I'm willing to compromise. Is the problem that my boyfriend is not being honest with me, or is the problem that I'm being overly sensitive to his actions and I should just listen to what he SAYS, give him time, and hope things improve?
 
booboofish said:
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First of all, he seems to always dislike the people I am with (calling them names, questioning my choices, etc). That is always hard to deal with.
...
Then he seems really distant whenever I talk to him about having sex with others (we have a full disclosure policy).
...
I feel like I'm being punished after spending a night with someone. It's gotten to the point where I'm questioning whether its even worth it for me to see other people, because I hate upsetting him and feeling this way.

The problem I'm having is that my boyfriend always SAYS he's fine and okay after I sleep with someone, but he acts differently and it makes me feel panicked. I really really care for him and it kills me to see him upset due to something I've done. At the same time, being poly is really important to me and not something I'm willing to compromise. Is the problem that my boyfriend is not being honest with me, or is the problem that I'm being overly sensitive to his actions and I should just listen to what he SAYS, give him time, and hope things improve?
Click to expand...

Wow. You've articulated some really good things here.

I'm a fan of taking people's words at face value. He is responsible for expressing himself verbally to you, as you are not a mind reader. So let's separate his words about acceptance of your other relationships from these actions that seem to you to "say" the opposite.

Since you're not a mind reader, and his mouth is saying "I'm okay with this," try trusting him on that. You might be right that his mouth is fibbing to cover up pain. But saying so can't help but sound critical: you aren't being honest with me! And he might think he is, so that might sting. But you don't have to go there.

His actions are hurtful to you, regardless of where they're coming from. You have a right to say that. And to expect him to help you process it.

Would any of these be good starting points?
"When you call my dates names I feel hurt, because they are people I care about."
"When you question my choice of partners, I feel that you don't trust me to make choices that are right for me."
"When I tell you about sex with other partners, you [describe objectively his behavior that seems distancing]; would you rather we discussed less of the detail of our other relationships?"

You sound plenty empathetic. But don't confuse empathy with mind-reading. Empathy says "maybe he feels..." But only communication can confirm that and lead to constructive solutions. Maybe asking for his empathy (by saying something like the above) can open the discussions that lead to better understanding between you.
 
booboofish said:
Is the problem that my boyfriend is not being honest with me, or is the problem that I'm being overly sensitive to his actions and I should just listen to what he SAYS, give him time, and hope things improve?
Click to expand...

I don't see either of those diagnoses as accurate, or at least I don't see them as actionable.

He could be holding back his true feelings from you... but you have no way of knowing and therefor that doesn't get you anywhere.

If someone says they are "totally cool" with something but displays "totally not cool" then that doesn't get you anywhere, because in adult relationships we should treat each other as fully functional adults who are capable of describing our own emotional limitations​

booboofish said:
First of all, he seems to always dislike the people I am with (calling them names, questioning my choices, etc). That is always hard to deal with.
Then he seems really distant whenever I talk to him about having sex with others (we have a full disclosure policy).
Click to expand...

This is where I see the problem and actionable issues to work on.

The agreements you guys made might have worked when you made them, but situations and attitudes change. Therefor it is reasonable to presume that agreements should be updated according to the reality at hand.

The reality here is that you are now dating, and he is being shitty about it. It's ok, sometimes people get shitty and we need to deal with it by adjusting our interaction with them accordingly. For me personally, this agreement of "full disclosure" is the one that is immediately scrapped.

"I know we were 'full disclosure' before, but I don't want to hear your mean opinions about who I'm dating so I am just going to stop talking about them for now" - would be a reasonable response for me. I'm not going to listen to someone shit-talk my romantic interests to make themselves feel better.

It also forces the conversation of "what exactly should I share with you?" which might help expose some of the insecurity as well as find a gentle starting point for communicating with him that *you are dating*

Dismiss the idea of "well that was our agreement" as precious. As rational adults we get to discuss these things and change the nature of our agreements as we grow.
 
To me "full disclosure" means that if he asks you answer. Why beat him over the head with sex details when that clearly makes him uncomfortable?
 
Welcome booboofish,

Interesting post!

To me, there are two sides of the poly coin. Among many things, overcoming insecurity is on one side. On the other side, among many things, is learning patience, kindness, allowing yourself to let others hurt without hindering their growth by stopping your behaviour, and learning to balance.

You, my dear, are about to learn a different side of the coin! And you thought all your hard work was over! ;)

Whatever you do, I beseech you never to share your comparison of insecurity healing time with him personally. My GF constantly says "you struggle more than I do", and other variants of this, and I find this extremely damaging and counterproductive. Remember: it is not a race or a competition. I once read that, in fact, the greatest applause should be given to those who take longer, because they are the ones unfortunate enough to have had worse historical experiences that caused these deep-rooted insecurities in the first place. His insecurities have a much longer history than your relationship.

However, it seems he needs some help. He's attempting to use coping techniques that are not productive.

Suggestions:

1. Give him 2 years to deal with insecurities, as you have had now. We often underestimate the length of time it took us to really deal, and often overplay our own successes. The brain makes us all the hero of our own story,

2. Revise full disclosure to 'do ask, will tell'. Let him come to you for details when he's ready. Agree if there is anthing that must be raised - unprotected sex, fallen in love, whatever else might apply. If you have to raise something, pick your timing.

3. No name calling. No sharing of character assessments unless requested.

4. Talk to him about why his words say he's fine when his body says otherwise. Discuss what might help.

Incidentally, my GF claims that most of the time, making less of a big deal out of insecurity and saying 'im good' actually helps her. Go figure. Ha.

Another technique we use is a number system. 0-5 : 0 = completely happy, 1= minor pinch, 2 = uncomfortable but will cope, 3= hard to deal with, 4 = seriously distressing, 5= relationship deal breaker.

The idea is that this helps to categorise phrases like "I'm fine", which can mean all kinds of things. It can also help to see how he's getting on, because if you're hearing 2 3 3 4 4 4, you know something is escalating and you need to check in.

5. Check in that panic of yours! :) trust your boyfriend to get there eventually. Let him do it in his own time. Be supportive. Set new, healthy guidelines. Expect to make mistakes and learn from them!
 
Wow! Thanks guys! I can see this forum will be really helpful and interesting.

About the full disclosure thing:

I usually don't like talking about what I do with other people; I feel like it ruins some of the intimacy I have with that person. HOWEVER, it is ALWAYS my bf who asks me about it. It's this weird predicament where I feel I need to tell him because he asked (he claims this is what makes he feel protected and safe), and at the same time it makes me feel weird and I know it will probably make him feel horribly jealous as well. I know he is an adult and can make his own decisions about what is good or bad for him, but maybe I'll try asking him if this is really what he wants at this moment. Maybe at another time he can handle it better.

About judging other partners of my primary partner:

I am curious as to how you guys deal with this? In my mind, it would be very ideal that my bf like and be interested in all my partners but I know this won't always happen. At the same time, it really bugs me when he doesn't like my partners (usually I ask). How can I learn to get over this? I can see us eventually living with multiple partners in a family-like situation, but of course I cannot force this and I must accept if he isn't interested in my partners.

I've told him that it hurts me that he is harsh about who I see because it seems that he does not trust who I choose to be with. He basically answered that I am right- that he does not think I always make good choices but neither does he. He feels that because he cares about me he should tell me if he thinks someone could be bad for me...this really pisses me off because I feel like he is giving me input without my asking...acting like a father rather than an equal partner.
 
If he asks, tell him that you don't think telling as much as he wants to know is good for your relationship and politely decline.

If he starts saying horrible things about his metamours, kindly ask him to share his thoughts with someone else. Internet forums are helpful!
 
booboofish said:
At the same time, it really bugs me when he doesn't like my partners (usually I ask). How can I learn to get over this?
Click to expand...

Stop asking.

The two of you seem to have the same problem, you're asking questions that you aren't prepared to hear the answer to. If you aren't prepared to hear that he doesn't like your other partners, don't ask the question.
 
I am sorry you struggle with info management and emotional management right now.

There is a difference between want and need. He may want to know sex details. But he only needs to know sex health hygiene things.... Who the partner is, current labs, and that you practice safer sex since that could affect his health. He is not the only person in the polygroup either -- there's at least you and the other lover. His needs have to be balanced against all the other people's needs for the group to function mostly harmoniously. Everyone getting most needs met most of the time.

As the hinge, don't get sucked into double duty and neglecting your OWN needs.

If hearing the details helps him feel reassured and safe? That is the need then. Reassurance and safety. Not the method of how to arrive there (sharing sex details) but the outcome of reassurance/safety. If you can articulate the need, you can then find other ways to meet the need. If articulating needs is hard, print and circle might help.

Because that data also does not only belong to you, but your other lover. They may or may not want you sharing details with the bf. So if an agreement of "full disclosure" is not working, rework that agreement to be specific. "Full disclosure about WHAT details?" because just "open ended" isn't working out right now.

When you share data the bf gets upset with jealousy, so share less data and be firm about the details you are willing to share and the details you are not. Each dyad needs some privacy. See if that works out better in the long run.

When I was a hinge one partner flared up with jealousy and wanted to know sex share details. I reminded that wasn't the agreement. I asked him for what purpose? And that no. I could not disclose just like that without asking my other partner first because it was his shared data, not only mine. I'd have to get a special pass so I would not be breaking agreements by sharing without his knowing. Did he want me to check in and see for "exception to the rule?"

He said no... strangely he felt better watching me get very strict about information management. He discovered his jealousy was actually fear that I'd leak our data over the other way and watching me hold the line as the hinge reassured him that should my other BF be asking I would behave the same way.

I do not know if that applies here since he's newly dealing with "you as hinge person."

If you both are in the habit of picking bad dating partners in the past, that could be a separate agreement. Could talk about how one partner can acceptably share their concern in acceptable ways. Make the boundaries around that. On your end, you could work on stop taking it personally like he's trying to daddy you. Not equate (constructive feedback to help) as (criticism to tear down.)

On his end, he could learn to express himself without insults. Actually learn to give constructive feedback and stop being critical. Rather that go after the character of the new partner (ex: X is a scuzzbucket! They suck!)? Could focus on the off putting behavior and bring it to attention. (ex: Have you noticed x keeps standing you up the last 3 times? Then I comfort you? Then you go back for more when X calls? What is that about?)

It is possible to be all NRE rose-colored glasses that off putting behavior misses your radar or his radar when dating other people. Since the polymath affects everyone in the polygrouping, talk about how to raise concerns appropriately to the dating NRE person. In other words, make the poly hell agreements before poly hell happens.

Maybe talking about all that could help bring the whirlwind emotions down while still moving it forward? Could these on jealousy also help?

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Jealousy_Updated_10-6-10.pdf
http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/poly/Labriola/jealousy.html


Galagirl
 
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Hi booboofish,

Full disclosure:
I think you've said something important here. You have an internal boundary in which you don't don't necessarily want to share everything. It's also really important for your primary to respect his metamour's/rs' right to privacy. So, just because your primary feels safer (or says he feels safer) knowing all the details, doesn't mean that he should get all the details. It has to feel good to all people involved. Couple privilege should not overrule consent when it comes to sharing. Bf also shouldn't ask anything he wouldn't want shared about your sex life.

To me, sharing poly stuff is a 3-tier system:

Essential stuff relates to safe sex, relationship model changes, the L word.
Helpful stuff relates to new experiences (i.e. You know how I'd never tried bondage before? I have now.), problems that you need to talk about (i.e. BDSM issues, or something else), or guideline issues (I have scratches on my back. What is our guideline about sex marks?).
Cautionary/consent stuff relates to comparisons of who's better in bed, sharing metamour's sexual issues or responses, or "we did this, in this way, for this long, then we held each other like this, and said these words".

-----
Other partner stuff:
In terms of having an ideal of living in a communal poly household, does bf share the same ideal? If so, you have to agree at this stage which form of poly you want: group decisions on partners (end goal = communal household), or solo decisions on partners (end goal = see what happens). It's best to iron that out now.

Also, I've found that having a 'type' can mean that metamours may simply clash, and this may be a fact of life! For instance, I like to date assertive, strong women. My GF is also an assertive, strong woman. Put the two together? Ain't nobody gonna wanna live in that household! Instead of allowing GF to critique my choices (because she perceives their bold personalities as 'argumentative' ;) ), I keep my feisty women in relatively separate corners of the boxing ring. Life is much simpler that way.

You ask how you can get over it bugging you re: bf disliking your other partners. a) Agree not to share opinions IF NOT ASKED. b) Agree to only ask if you really want to know!

Whether or not you come to regret your choice in partners, encourage bf to communicate what affects *him* and to stay out of your decision-making. Tell him that if he wants to protect you, you would love to know that he'll be your steady rock if something goes wrong. The he can puff his chest out in a productive and caring way.

Finally, if you find yourself moaning about your other partners to bf OR dropping in loads of wonderful appraisals about them to try to force bf to like them ("Joe loves The Smiths too! I think you'll love him if you only give him a chance!"), you might be fueling the fire.
 
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Great advice!!! Thanks all.
 
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