Poly-swingerish advice needed

[Xftmfz]

I don’t even know where to start. I am turning 30 this week. I’ve been married to my wife for five years. For the past three we have been into swinging. It started with her having an interest in females, which she really likes, and still enjoys, when possible. Some of it has been great, and some of it has been a challenge. But nonetheless, here we are. Over the past three years, my entire perspective on marriage, sex, what it means to me, what I’m okay with, who I am, etc., has changed more in the polyamorous direction, in terms of how I see myself in an “uncontrolled” state.

The controlled state that I am in, I think, is my problem.

We’ve done the therapy thing. The first one was not sex positive, and basically seemed to reinforce what I felt were the issues between us. It only mattered what she did not want, a list too long for any human to wish to read, basically anything that makes a monogamous person jealous, with a few exceptions. We have to have a rule to avoid that for her.

It was interesting watching this therapist squirm, trying to be non-judgmental, but ultimately failing by giving advice that completely ignored the concerns of half of the relationship. What I desired was not only less important, but pretty much irrelevant. I don’t think I should have my way all the time, but when many of the desires I wish for have nothing to do with her, it’s bothering me more and more why she should be able to control that aspect of my life.

So then we found a sex-positive therapist. He was much better. However, he pretty much focused on trying to get us to both converse about “win-win” type situations, which seemed impossible. In therapy sessions, he could ask her a question, and it might take a while, but she eventually answered questions like, “What do you want out of the connections you make?" as, “I want to be listened to. I don’t want to be ignored. I feel like he leaves me behind and forgets I’m here.”

Therein lies the issue with "playing together" all the time. It’s simply not easy. And when one person craves the connection more, it’s been almost debilitating to our relationship. Eventually, after getting the same advice, “Talk it out till you come to a win-win” three or four times, I gave up on pushing for that.

Anything I might do where I might experience pleasure where she isn’t being equally pleasured is not allowed.

Same bed. Same room. No exceptions. No anal for me and another woman (because my wife doesn’t like that). I can’t text the friends we have sex with “too much." I can’t flirt with them "too much." I can’t kiss them at parties until it’s naked time. I can’t forget to look her way an “acceptable” amount of times, during sex with others. And I need to make sure she makes eye contact with me when I do, or it didn’t happen. I can’t talk to anyone new unless she approves of both the female and the male. I can’t even talk about playing alone, or in a separate room. And “love” is only for married couples. Stomach churning yet? Mine is.

She never admits that she doesn’t want to lead this lifestyle, but she reminds me frequently that she “doesn’t need this or obsess over it" like I do. "It’s not an important part of her life," etc. Of course, the fact that it is important to me is no consolation. Also, “What is important to you?” yields no answer.

She seems extremely attached to the nonchalant aspect of swinging, whereas I’m somewhere else on the spectrum. I want to know my partners inside and out. I don’t feel like I need a “girlfriend,” or anything like that, but I don’t necessarily rule out the possibility that if it worked, it would work... if that makes any sense.

What do I want? I’m afraid to answer. I’m so curious. I want to know what it feels like to be completely uninhibited. I want to know who I would be, if I did as I pleased, instead of treading so carefully through life as to not upset my spouse with my own personal desires. I have no idea if polyamory would work for me.

I used to think what I wanted was for her to be on the same page as me, but the more I read on the subject of polyamorous lifestyles, jealousy, and relationships, the more I realize I’m craving her acceptance. And she won’t give that to me unless I obey her rules. I feel like I don’t really need “permanent”-type connections, but I hate being constrained to basically, “You can go as far as I feel comfortable, then you have to stop."

Any of you ladies and gents been here? Any advice? Anything at all? I’m on this board because, in my experience, swingers don’t talk. They stay completely private. They don’t open up and say how they feel, because that intimacy scares the shit out of all of them, for the most part. I’ve been writing in journals and whatnot, but I needed to converse and tell this to a real person (or people, in this case).

Any comments or suggestion are welcome. Thanks for reading my depressing spill.

 

[bookbug]

What other aspects of your life does she control? While the exacting amount of control she exhibits within your sexual adventures seem so extreme as to not make it any kind of fun, I am betting that this is not the only situation in your relationship where she dictates the rules. Am I correct?

 

[YouAreHere]

I’m on this board because, in my experience, swingers don’t talk. They stay completely private. They don’t open up and say how they feel, because that intimacy scares the shit out of all of them, for the most part. I’ve been writing in journals and whatnot, but I needed to converse and tell this to a real person...

I'm not sure about boards, but if you go on Reddit, there is a subreddit there for swingers: http://www.reddit.com/r/swingers I'm not sure how active it is, but they may have some different insights.

The only other thought I have is that your resentment is pretty obvious in your writing, and it sounds like you're kind of at your wits' end here. Would a poly/swinging-friendly therapist maybe be a better answer than a sex-friendly one? I'm not sure how the two compare. There are links somewhere on the board to poly-friendly therapists, if you search for them. Good luck.

 

[dingedheart]

Did you date a lot before you got married? It sounds like you want freedom. Might be some overall compatibility issues. This could be a microcosm of a larger issue.

Do you have any kids?

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi Xftm, welcome to the board.

It seems we have a conflict here. Your wife is polysexual, you are polyamorous. She wants casual sex with others, free of emotional entanglement. She also wants you to be like her! And she's set up all kinds of rules to keep you in the emotionally monogamous, polysexual box. So far, you've let yourself be dragged along to do things her way, despite therapy.

You're still quite young. Married for 5 years at almost 30 years old, means you probably met her and committed to her in your early 20s. Lots of growth happens in one's 20s! Sometimes young couples grow apart in these "starter marriages." Sometimes you stick it out, work hard, and are able to grow together. Sometimes there are irreconcilable differences.

So, here's the deal. You are your own person. We all are. You have let her control you in how you've conducted your outside relationships 'til now, but it's getting to the point where you can't stand it anymore. You want at least a deep friendship with a sexual partner, you want one-on-one sex with her; you want to be able to focus on her.

Your wife is polysexual and a swinger interested in three-way sex. That is fine, for her, but there is no law anywhere that says you must go along with her preferences if it isn't a fit for you.

What to do? Clearly state your needs and desires. Have confidence you deserve the kinds of relationships you desire. You might find a middle ground. She can go on to have her threesomes (at swinger parties I think women are allowed to arrive solo?), or from swinging websites where she can hook up with couples, find bisexual women and their mates.

And you can go on to find a partner or partners where you can be free to have those dreaded feelings. Feelings, i.e., love, affection, is what polyamory is all about.

If your wife is mature enough, and if you state your needs with confidence, she will realize partners can and do change. Everything changes! Trying to hold back change through a series of constricting rules is futile, and leads to the massive resentment and depression you are now feeling.

But you have to take courage! You could lose her. Or, maybe, you speaking up will be a catalyst for a wonderful change and growing depth in your relationship with your wife. You never know. There are no guarantees in life.

 

[central]

How much does your wife know and understand about polyamory? If she doesn't understand it, then she may feel threatened, as she fears losing you to someone else who you could love. She may have a monogamous mindset in that area, while not feeling threatened by casual sex that has no emotional component, hence all the rules to restrict development of emotional connections.

Has she read any books about polyamory? I've read few. The Ethical Slut is probably the "classic" on this subject. It may help open the doors to discussion if she reads that or similar books.

 

[Xftmfz]

What other aspects of your life does she control? While the exacting amount of control she exhibits within your sexual adventures seem so extreme as to not make it any kind of fun, I am betting that this is not the only situation in your relationship where she dictates the rules. Am I correct?

There are many, I would say. It's not a complete distrust-like situation, though. I can go camping on the weekend with the guys, no problem. I just can't go with girls unless she's there. And she's not into that kinda stuff, like me. So I typically just abide by the standard. Any friends I have of the female persuasion who might wanna go camping just have to deal without me.

I can play music with my band whenever and wherever. I can go out to bars with friends (and by friends I mean close friends, a mixture of guys and girls (all vanilla, of course), but I have to make sure I pay attention to what the hell I'm doing, because she will nonchalantly ask what I did, and if I don't give a detailed-enough description, then I "must" be hiding something. (<-- Sorry, that was sarcasm.)

We've talked of having a child over the years, and have had several arguments over certain aspects of parenthood that there will be no discussion on. They must be her way, period. I don't really want to get into that.

But I think the point stands that she picks and chooses her battles. She just picks too damn many for my taste when it comes to sex, so it seems.

I've tried explaining that if she weren't my top priority, I wouldn't care to get her approval and acceptance on these things, that no one in their right mind would go through these hellish, long-drawn-out conversations, where she mocks me, guilt trips me, and condescendingly rejects every notion I put forth.

I could literally just leave. I don't want to leave. The majority of our lives don't revolve around sex and social interaction, and the majority of our relationship is okay. But these little resentments and jealousies are eating away at me. I know it's gotta be eating at her, too. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to be deceptive and cheat on her. I feel like that would be unfair to her, unfair to whoever the 3rd was, and it would add guilt on top of the plethora of emotions involved already.

I've read several books that have a lot of good stuff about jealousy and dealing with it. I've read The Ethical Slut. Eye-opening ideas to dealing with exactly what she's going through. I couldn't get her to read any of it.

When I tried just talking about what I had read, and applying it to our situation, she mocked me for the books, saying, "Well, I guess I should just read the books so you can fuck whoever you want." I said, "No, you should read them because it doesn't hurt you to read them, and maybe you'd learn something that would help you deal with what you're going through." Nope. No bueno.

 

[Xftmfz]

Would a poly/swinging-friendly therapist maybe be a better answer than a sex-friendly one?

I should clarify, the guy I found, his website said he dealt with swinging, polyamory, transgender, and any other sexual lifestyle.

Also, I'm located in the middle of the Bible Belt, Alabama. Not a large selection of sex-positive people here, let alone therapists. Lol. They all seem to think our genitalia is some joke of God's, made to tease us our entire lives. That is a bit condemning. I know everyone here isn't like that, but since there's such a large number of them, very rarely do we meet couples who tell anyone at all what they do.

 

[Xftmfz]

Did you date a lot before you got married? Sounds like you want freedom. Might be some overall compatibility issues. This could be a microcosm of a larger issue.

Do you have any kids?

No, I didn't date a lot, I don't think. I had mostly steady girlfriends from high school up until I was married. Maybe there were three girls prior to my wife that I could I say I loved. Maybe. Who knows?

We have a son. I've been with her since he was a baby, but I am his stepdad. He's 10.

 

[opalescent]

X, you don't have poly vs. swinger issues. Your marriage is in trouble. I can just feel the resentment and misery in the posts. And, from just your point of view, I can certainly see why. That level of control and belittlement on top of it is toxic.

Get yourself into therapy now. Don't worry if she doesn't go yet. You need to get your head sorted out. Do not let her guilt or push you into not going. If she agrees to go to counseling with you, that's great, but still go on your own. Find a low-cost option, if necessary. There are sliding scale therapists out there.

Try to find one with knowledge about alternative communities. Therapists who work with LGBT issues are a fine place to start looking. Therapists with alternative community knowledge are more likely to put the swinging and polyamory into proper context and not get overly focused on it.

It is important to tell her what you want, clearly, and without a lot of emotional charge. That's hard. It also sounds like she is not going to hear it anyway. The therapy is to figure out what you want, how you may be able to get it, and what your options are if you don't. Being confronted with the fact that you may leave if she doesn't work on her control issues might get her motivated. Or not. Sometimes that control is more important than a marriage, it's sad to say. I hope that is not the case here.

You've got a long road ahead of you, but I think you have realized you can't stay where you are.

 

[Xftmfz]

inefed was

Hi Xftm, welcome to the board.

It seems we have a conflict here. Your wife is polysexual; you are polyamorous. She wants casual sex with others free of emotional entanglement. She also wants you to be like her! And she's set up all kinds of rules to keep you in the emotionally monogamous, polysexual box. So far, you've let yourself be dragged along to do things her way, despite therapy.

You're still quite young. Married for 5 years at almost 30, means you probably met her and committed to her in your early 20s. Lots of growth happens in ones 20s! Sometimes young couples grow apart in these "starter marriages." Sometimes you stick it out, work hard, and are able to grow together. Sometimes there are irreconcilable differences.

So, here's the deal. You are your own person. We all are. You have let her control you in how you conduct your outside relationships 'til now, but it's getting to the point where you can't stand it anymore. You want at least a deep friendship with a sexual partner. You want one-on-one sex with her. You want to be able to focus on her.

Your wife is polysexual and a swinger interested in three-way sex. That is fine, for her, but there is no law anywhere that says you must go along with her preferences if it isn't a fit for you.

What to do? Clearly state your needs and desires. Have confidence you deserve the kinds of relationships you desire. You might find a middle ground. She can go on to have her threesomes (at swinger parties or from swinging websites) where she can hook up with couples...

And you can go on to find a partner or partners where you can be free to have those dreaded feelings. Feelings, i.e., love, affection, are what polyamory is all about.

If your wife is mature enough, and if you state your needs with confidence, she will realize partners can and do change. Everything changes! Trying to hold back change thru a series of constricting rules is futile, and leads to the massive resentment and depression you are now feeling.

But you have to take courage! You could lose her. Or, maybe, you speaking up will be a catalyst for a wonderful change and growing depth in your relationship with your wife. You never know. There are no guarantees in life.

Thank you for this advice! I do constantly question whether or not I deserve what I want, even though I know I shouldn't. I try to just be open about how I feel, but the condescending response seems to tailor me away from being straightforward. I keep thinking that if I dealt with one little issue at a time, it would be better than overloading her with too much change at once. I can't ever figure out how much pressure is just enough to promote change without prompting a breakdown.

 

[Xftmfz]

How much does she understand about polyamory? If she doesn't understand it, then she may feel threatened, as she fears losing you to someone else who you could love. She may have a monogamous mindset in that area, while not feeling threatened by casual sex that has no emotional component, hence all the rules to restrict development of emotional connections.

Has she read any books about polyamory?

This has been my most recent strategy. I tried getting her to read The Ethical Slut as a "Please do this for me; I want to talk about the content of this; it's been an eye opener for me and even has activities we can do together that might help us walk through this." She has used every excuse from, "I'm too busy," to "I like listening to the radio (so I bought her the audiobook to make it easier, since she's not a big reader);" "This isn't my priority," blah blah BLAAAH.

So last night and this morning I finally gave her a taste of her own medicine. I laid on a guilt trip about her not reading it when, after all, she agreed to read it. So supposedly, according to her sarcasm, it shall be the only thing she does until it's completed. Lol.

I can't make her understand or agree with the sentiments in the book, but I can be 100% guaranteed she won't understand or agree if she doesn't read it.

So I figured going on the offense might have been appropriate for this one. I hope I was right.

 

[icesong]

I'm sorry you're in such a rough spot. Honestly, what I'm hearing most clearly in your words is how much contempt and belittlement you're getting from your spouse, and frankly, that's never ok, poly and/or swinging aside. I know you just came here for advice on the poly/swinging aspect, but I can't help commenting on the level of broken relationship I'm hearing here. It honestly sounds like she doesn't respect you at all.

 

[central]

If, after she reads the book and you both discuss things thoroughly, she still insists on her restrictions, you can either accept them, or inform her that you will no longer follow her rules unless it suits you at the time. If the latter, she may adapt in time, or freak out and dump you. Is that an acceptable result if you can't reach a mutually agreeable plan?

The only other options are to become monogamous or single.

 

[Magdlyn]

No one can treat you like dirt unless you let them. Get some therapy, grow in confidence. I left my marriage after 30+ years because I wasn't getting my needs met. I waited too long. But it's never too late and I am having the time of my life, with 2 partners who lift me up. If I can do it, anyone can.

I despise sarcasm and condescension. You deserve better too. That is no way to live. Life is too short.

 

[Memorandum]

As for finding therapists, try sorting by video-enabled (usually Skype). I live in the middle of nowhere in a tourist town. There are all of 3, last I checked, in the actual town, and the rest of the 20 or so are 50 miles away. None are for what I need. So I've settled for this self-help site I found last night, and I'll still search for video-enabled with a sliding scale. For the site I used, you have to pick a state first, then you can narrow it down by video-enabled, and then by your issues, etc.

 

[Xftmfz]

Try sorting by video enabled (usually skype). I live in the middle of nowhere in a tourist town... I've settled for this self help site I found last night, and I'll still search for video-enabled, with a sliding scale. You have to pick a state first, then you can narrow it down by video-enabled, and then by your issues, etc.

Would you share the link? PM me?

 

[mmkeekah]

Gosh, I have tons of advice, but it's all for your wife, in regards to polyamory, and how to handle the emotions. I do think it comes down to what you are willing to put up with in your marriage, and/or how much you really want to explore polyamory. Not sure if anyone else has said this, but people don't really change all that much unless they are their own catalyst for that change.

I say this because it seems to me your perceived ideal solution would be for your wife to change her perceptions and attitudes, and I suppose your strategy could be waiting on your wife to come around to your way of thinking. That could happen, but it seems more likely that she will continue believing what she wants (even if she were to read whatever you asked her to read), and you would have to continue to accept that and live with it.

I am of the strong belief that the only person who we can control is ourselves. The only person who you can change in this equation is you. So I am back to the question, "What is it you really want?" and, "What are you willing to do/give up to get it?"

 

[Magdlyn]

The more I think on this, the more it seems to be a case of "Relationship broken, add more people," which is a disaster in the making.

If you and your wife have such a bad time communicating on many issues throughout the day, her bullying you, you placating her, you bringing a real lover into the mix would be unethical. Even swinging seems to be a way to blind yourselves to your marital issues with the yumminess of sex hormones.

And even that is a place for her to bully you.

Thus speaks an anonymous stranger on the internet who knows next to nothing about you!

 

[Xftmfz]

If, after she reads the book and you both discuss things thoroughly, she still insists on her restrictions, you can either accept them, or inform her that you will no longer follow her rules unless it suits you at the time. If the latter, she may adapt in time, or freak out and dump you. Is that an acceptable result if you can't reach a mutually agreeable plan? The only other options are to become monogamous or single.

This one I have put a great deal of thought into. I have thought, "What if I just tell her this is how I'm going to be, deal with it?" The answer I get doesn't help.

That is how she treats me. Ultimatums. "You are forbidden to ____ with_____!" Like the way we're "supposed" to be is all fucked up because of me and my wants and desires. I'm not given a choice. My feelings on the matter are irrelevant, as she sees them as the source of her pain. She doesn't think she has a choice, but she does, whether she realizes it or not. I'm almost opposed to the idea of me giving her an ultimatum, except for the fact that the alternative (divorce) leaves a 100% chance of losing her.

I'm not dead without this. I could be monogamous, but with a lot of regret and envy of others who are not. But nonetheless, other things I would be happy with.

I could be polyamorous. But with a lot of regret regarding the parts of my life that have always been good and unaffected by our sex lives. My stepson would be one of those things I'd have a hard time forgiving myself for.

Right now it feels like either way I go, I lose.