Feeling Confused

[pacificfords]

Hi. It has been really interesting to read some of the discussions on this forum. I guess I will start by sharing my current situation. Any advice would be appreciated.

My husband and I have been happily married for almost 13 years. Right from the start, we were very open in our relationship. In fact, we met during a group sexual encounter and ended up married a year later. We had a few bumps and bruises the first few years trying to figure out exactly what type of a relationship we wanted, because we are extremely adventurous, open-minded and bi-sexual.

Over the years, we occasionally included a third person for sexual encounters, but it was always a group situation and never about building a long-term relationship with that person. In time, the dynamic began to change and I began to form relationships that did not really involve my husband. There was no motive to have any type of relationship with them other than friendship, but it did end up gravitating toward much more. My husband was super comfortable with whatever I wanted to happen and kind of pushed me to really enjoy the relationships. That is when I started to get really confused. I know how it feels to love more than one person and it is simply amazing to me.

I think this might be a good place to say that I am inherently submissive and so is my husband, so sexually, there has always been a bit of a disconnect for us. We have an amazing marriage and intimacy and all of that, but those really intense sexual encounters that come from the dominant/submissive relationship are not possible between us. I am very attracted to more dominant men. It changes me in such a good way when I have that connection. My husband even encourages me to seek out the relationships because it really brings out the very best in me and he can tell the difference. He is not the least bit threatened by any relationship I have had (which honestly confuses me as times.) Sadly, I have been unable to get past my fears of him exploring relationships. If my husband seeks out another woman, it really scares and upsets me. It seems like a much deeper emotion than jealousy. There is an extreme fear of losing him.

I have been contemplating the idea of just turning off my desire for other relationships because I don’t know how to come to terms with my husband seeking other relationships and it just doesn’t feel fair for it to be one-sided. He has often said that it is okay if I do it and he doesn’t, but I feel like he is sacrificing for my emotions, so it is hard to just let that happen. I really don’t want to be selfish or take away the opportunity for him to have experiences with others, but I seriously cannot wrap my head around it and get comfortable with it. I have been trying for almost five years to really embrace the idea. It seems like it would be easier and safer to just be content with a mostly monogamous relationship and the occasional group encounter, but I know I would have to shut down a huge part of myself. I just don't know how to be comfortable with my husband having relationships that do not involve me.

 

[Halcyeus]

For now it sounds like your husband is getting a lot what he needs from a relationship with you. If he wasn't, submissive personality or not, you'd probably know about it. Actually, have to ask, does your fear of him seeking out another women disappoint him?

You could take a good, long look at that extreme fear of losing him you have. On the one hand, it sounds like you love him very much, so fearing losing that is to be expected. On the other hand, there may be things that could be addressed to liberate both you and your husband from unnecessary worry. Not the sort of thing that can unravel itself overnight. Still, worth investigating.

His being encouraging to you seeing others will last for a while but the double standard involved may eventually lead to some resentment or unhappiness on his part later on. People are a mixed bunch. Anyway, I imagine you might be anticipating this and that is part of why you're contemplating giving non-monogamy a rest, as well as the discomfort of feeling selfish. That might work, if you find a healthy outlet or channel for your drives that is good enough to keep you happy. Just be wary. Its not the best thing in the world to deny yourself other lovers because you fear your husband might find joy doing the same. That sounds sad to me Pacificfords. Sadness rooted in the past. Ok, have to ask this too, do you think him exploring relationships with other women is a more or less realistic threat to your relationship? You mention being very afraid. What do you fear would happen?

 

[pacificfords]

Thank you for the response Halcyeus.

Actually, have to ask, does your fear of him seeking out another women disappoint him?

I think it does a little, but he doesn't really talk much about it. He wants me to be happy, but that is just his personality. He always puts my needs and the needs of his family first.

Ok, have to ask this too, do you think him exploring relationships with other women is a more or less realistic threat to your relationship? You mention being very afraid. What do you fear would happen?

It feels like a very realistic threat in the moment when I feel he might be connecting emotionally with someone else. When we are just talking about it, and there is no one that he is interested in, I feel totally okay with it.

I am not sure what I fear, specifically. I suppose it makes me feel like I might not have control. My submissive nature is a sexual thing, it is not my tendency in day to day life. Our son jokes that I am the boss of the house, but it is pretty true. My husband has always been more comfortable with me taking the lead on most things. I try to encourage him to make some choices and take the lead, but he is much more comfortable when I do that on most things. He is getting better about it and stepping up more often than ever before, but it is just his comfort zone to let me decide. I think it is hard for me to accept him giving that control to someone else because he is typically drawn to more dominant women. I am not sure if I feel like I am trying to protect him or me from losing him somehow. It seems like a combination.

 

[Halcyeus]

Being afraid of not having control is a big thing! An ideal that is probably never entirely realized is to accept the things we can't control. We're only human (but we can try).

You're probably getting stuck on a worst case scenario when you think of him exploring a relationship with another, e.g. he falls for someone so much you lose him altogether! I think in monogamous relationships this is sadly what often happens when someone strays outside the agreed boundaries. There is a much lighter version of loss in polyamory. Namely, a smaller loss of intimacy, sense of togetherness and meaning that comes from allowing someone we love to be focused on another. This is usually only temporary but some faith is required, because it doesn't necessarily feel temporary while its happening. Gets easier in time, too. The good part is that feeling that loss can even be an incentive to overcome things in your relationship that prevent greater intimacy, togetherness and meaning.

That you're wary of him being submissive and being drawn towards more dominant women makes sense. I can appreciate that dynamic. What if some assertive, more 'controlling' women comes along and messes things up? I suspect you're worrying more than you need to about that. If he puts your needs and the needs of his family first my guess is he is quite strongly rooted in that and would defend you and your family against someone trying to intefere.

 

[PinkPig]

Hi, pacific. I understand the fear as I've dealt with it with my lover Blue. For me, the jealousy, insecurity, and fear hit the hardest when Blue is first connecting with someone new. When he's just talking to people online, or we're discussing it 'in theory', I'm good. Likewise, once the relationship is established and I see that he still loves and desires me, much of the fear and jealousy dissipate. It's that initial period when everything's changing that's difficult for me.

If you do a search, you'll find lots of threads on jealousy and insecurity. Two of the links commonly shared in those threads are: unmasking the green-eyed-monster and making peace with jealousy. I've found both really useful. This is not necessarily on jealousy, but I've found Brene Brown helpful, too.

I still have more moments of insecurity and jealousy than I"d like, but I am improving. What's really helped for me is figuring out what my core fears are behind the jealousy. For me, it's fear of abandonment and fear that I'm inadequate (lesser than the new person.) The fear of abandonment was no surprise - I grew up in addiction and was married to an addict.... feeling abandoned in favor of the addiction is very common among adult children of addicts/alcoholics. Having grown up in a family of perfectionists, the fear of inadequacy wasn't really a surprise, either. Once I understood what was driving my jealousy, it made it easier to work on those areas.

It also helps that I understand that there are no guarantees that a monogamous partner won't leave me. Monogamy is not a guarantee of relationship success. Monogamous partners can and frequently do leave their lovers for new people. Giving up that illusion helped, too.

In the end, you're the only person who can provide the security that you need to feel comfortable with your partner having other partners. Like everyone says, it's an inside job. A lot of work, yes, but it's well worth it. The security and confidence that I'm building is helping me in all areas of my life, not just with Blue. I'm becoming a better me and a better partner

 

[pacificfords]

You're probably getting stuck on a worst case scenario when you think of him exploring a relationship with another, e.g. he falls for someone so much you lose him altogether!

Yes. I often tend to get stuck on worst-case-scenarios in many different areas of my life, not just this one. I really need to examine that more closely and figure out why.

I have been reading through a bunch of the different threads this morning and it is really helping me understand some things.

 

[pacificfords]

If you do a search, you'll find lots of threads on jealousy and insecurity. Two of the links commonly shared in those threads are: unmasking the green-eyed-monster and making peace with jealousy. I've found both really useful. This is not necessarily on jealousy, but I've found Brene Brown helpful, too.

Thanks I love Brene Brown. I think I even have one of her books on my Kindle that I purchased and never got around to finishing.

I think I may be fearing the unknown. My husband has never moved past the initial contact stage with another person, so there has been no opportunity to see how it actually feels once he gets comfortable in another relationship.

 

[LizziE]

Have you ever sat down and written out a bunch of your worst-case scenarios that you're imagining? For me, a lot of times, writing is generally very cathartic, and writing out the worst possible things that could happen and then thinking about/writing out what I would do is very emotional and hard, but always helps me feel a lot better.

That said, part of that exercise is taking a look at the things that I can control and can't control. My partner Jon leaving me? I can't control that. How I take care of myself after Jon would leave me? That is something I can control.

The other thing writing can do, if you share it with someone (like your hubby) is that they can get a lot of insight into you, and you into them. I've written out fears and shown them to partners before, to have the partner say "well, that would never happen like that because of XXX" and that has been a huge relief to me, to realize that there could be things that I was totally off-track with.

Other times, showing a partner something helps them to understand why, say, a lesser version of that might trigger me and they may modify their behavior or words a bit, to help me out with that. Or maybe they're able to think of a way to try something new that I hadn't thought of, but might be extremely helpful. Given the wonderful relationship you and your husband have, it could be worthwhile to do some writing about your fears and why you're afraid of things and see if looking at them with him might help the two of you to find a way through. Because a lot of these things are things that you need to do with him on board too, you know? The two of you could start brainstorming ways to help you with this that work well for you and are also good for the prospective partners that he meets. And those partners might also have ideas, based off of past relationships, of things that can help. The most important thing, in my experience, is to really talk through concrete, specific fears or scenarios, and use them as tools to help foster bonding and build trust/respect.

I hope that helps a little!

 

[pacificfords]

Have you ever sat down and written out a bunch of your worst-case scenarios that you're imagining?

I have not done that. I absolutely love to write, but didn't think of writing about my fears in that area of my life. Thank you for the idea. I think that might help quite a bit.

It has been interesting to read many of the threads on this site. It has helped me see things a little more clearly.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi pacificfords,

One thing that comes to my mind, when you speak of your fears about your husband seeing other people, is that maybe getting practice and experience in him actually seeing someone, would help it feel real to you that he isn't going to leave you no matter what. Perhaps if you take it slowly and he just has coffee with someone at first, then very gradually increases his amount of contact with that person. Something to consider.

I'll follow your posts and see what else I can think of.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

He has often said that it is okay if I do it and he doesn’t.

And you do not believe him? Not able to take him at his word?

I feel like he is sacrificing for my emotions, so it is hard to just let that happen.

You think he is sacrificing himself. And you do not like that idea you are thinking.

But what if it isn't a sacrifice to him? He's totally ok with it? Can you verify and give yourself permission to relax then?

I really don’t want to be selfish or take away the opportunity for him to have experiences with others

If he wanted to be with others, he could be. Not to be mean or anything... but he could renegotiate with you, he could break up with you, he could cheat and have an affair, etc. All sorts of ways for him to be with someone else. Some more ethical than others. The point is that he decides for himself what he wants. Not you. And he's decided he wants this as it is.

Why are you not able to be ok with it?

You are polysexual and maybe now also polyamorous. He's polysexual and possibly monoamorous. Where is problem? Where's the thing coming from? Could you articulate?

Is it that you are having an "equal/fairness" thing going on? If it were like this picture... He can see over the fence just fine with one box. He says he doesn't need or want two boxes. He's happy. You get to be happy with two boxes and you can see over the fence. You don't have to have the same for both to be happy.

Your inner voice is heavy on the "Should" talk rather than changing "should" to "could?"

If it isn't any of that stuff...

If my husband seeks out another woman, it really scares and upsets me. It seems like a much deeper emotion than jealousy. There is an extreme fear of losing him.

Could you be willing to flesh that out a little more?

Like this...

If my husband seeks out another woman, that is bad because if ___X___ happens, then I would have to start to __X___. I would have to stop __X____.

THAT would be bad. Because If I start/stop X, then I would have to start to __Y ___. I would have to stop ___Y____.

THAT would be bad. Because If I start/stop Y, then I would have to start to __Z ___. I would have to stop ___Z____.

​

And keep going until you can go no deeper.

What sorts of things come up?

Galagirl

 

[pacificfords]

Perhaps if you take it slowly and he just has coffee with someone at first, then very gradually increases his amount of contact with that person.

I sat with that thought for a moment to see how it might feel and it made me very uncomfortable and nervous just thinking about it. However, it is forcing me to look past the jealousy issue and try to connect with what is really going on.

I sure appreciate the questions and insights I am gaining through this conversation.

 

[pacificfords]

What sorts of things come up?
Galagirl

That really blew me away. It is not a jealousy issue. Not at all.

We have such a long history and part of that history is dealing with him lying to me. He lacks coping skills due to an extremely abusive childhood. In addition, he was diagnosed (unofficially) as an adult with autism. He is very high functioning and I didn't even know that was what we were dealing with until our son showed the same characteristics and was diagnosed. Long story short... he lies to avoid conflict and always has. It was a pretty bumpy road in the beginning of our marriage because I have zero tolerance for lying. However, I made a commitment to him and so I worked with him to find the root causes. Therapy helped a great deal. It was always about little stuff, never what seemed to be more important stuff like cheating (not that it should make a difference, but it kind of did).

Our relationship has evolved to this place where it is incredibly strong. We weathered the storm, but it changed our roles a bit over time. I am his wife, but I am also his accountability partner. We naturally spend most of our time together because honestly, we just love being together and well... the trust thing. I know where he is and what he is doing (as he does with me). It was a natural progression, not really a conscious effort to keep him under my thumb or anything like that.

I am actually a bit terrified to open the gate and let anyone else screw up what we have worked so hard to build. Is that selfish?

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it helped some.

Sounds like he's been conflict avoidant in the past. And maybe he defaults to that mode if he gets overloaded? What kind of conflict resolution types are you guys now?

If it's easier for him to have not as many relationships because of his autism and his conflict avoidance style -- what's so horrible about him deciding that for himself?

You can't deal with it because....?

I see it keeps coming up that you are worried about being or appearing "selfish." Is that it?

There is a spectrum like a see-saw.

Selfish --- self-full -- selfless​

The tilted ends of that see-saw are out of balance.

• Selfish = I am all about mememememe! I forget/ignore other people.
  
• Selfless = I am all about others. I forget/ignore anything about me.
  
• Self-full = the balanced place in the middle that says "I meet my own needs first so I do not burn out or run dry. Then I can gift my help to others to help them meet their needs as willing and able."

I also think you sound worried that a new person will change the dynamic. It does. If nothing else, a 4 people thing is more people than the 3 people thing you seem to have now. There's also the polymath.)

You sound worried it will bring on a new storm, when the old one maybe isn't so long ago. You value your hard won stability.
I could understand that. I don't think it makes you selfish.

I think it makes you concerned about maintaining your "self full" balance middle ground place while contemplating possible changes. Most people I know don't want crazy town levels of stress. They want changes at a pace they can deal in.

If he's truly happy how it is, ask him to reassure you. Then let it go.

If he's wanting to talk about it being more on his side of it, read some stuff together. Try that on for size first. Small change stuff like reading together. It doesn't have to LEAP into big change stuff like him jumping into dating tomorrow.

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html
http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/
http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles
https://www.morethantwo.com

Imagine how you could handle problems. For example...

How are you guys handling the autism? How would it affect you if he were to date? Because you might not want to get all up in his dating life. Some stuff you need to know, but some stuff is TMI.

At the same time, you might know the autism stuff better than potential partner would. The temptation could be for him or her to overlean on you or bring you in to referee. That's not awesome for you. How good are you at maintaining boundaries? Cuz giving some hints is one thing, get overloaded with their junk is another.

Could talk about things like that. SWOT analysis.

Galagirl

 

[pacificfords]

Sounds like he's been conflict avoidant in the past. And maybe he defaults to that mode if he gets overloaded? What kind of conflict resolution types are you guys now?

Galagirl

Yes, he still defaults to the avoidant mode when feeling totally overloaded, but I can usually see it and we can talk through it. I would say that when things are balanced, we are both pretty compromising, but when things are out of balance (or highly emotional) I am definitely competitive to his avoidance. It is usually pretty intense, but fortunately it doesn't come to that much anymore.

This discussion has eased my mind a great deal. Thank you (all of you).