Buttons & Eye Sleepies (yes, really)

Forgive me, but are your partner and metamour okay with you spilling every detail of their relationship, every argument, every conversation, in an open blog on the Internet?

I can't help thinking that you're really as bad as each other. Whilst she does the obvious things that obstruct polyamorous relationships, you seem equally as invested in trying to be the good, sensible, mature partner, to the point that it seems like a intentional ploy to "win" rather than genuine behaviour. However, in my humble opinion, a good, sensible, mature partner wouldn't spill all their (your partner and metamour's) private interactions to a group of strangers in the way that you have, especially on your blog. Even with their consent. Most of your blog seems to be you discussing their relationship and telling everyone how crap it is and what a crazy person she is.

I wonder how you'd react if your metamour suddenly turned a corner and stopped a lot of the things she has been doing. Would it be hard for you to deal with her not being "the bad guy"?

I was looking for a post that detailed why two adults who barely know each other and must know that they don't get on would want to live with each other to begin with. The only thing I can assume is that one or both of you were preoccupied with hierarchy and the only way you could both sleep at night is if you both lived with him all the time. Not separately, all together, just so you can show each other how great your relationship is with him.

To me, a partner who was choosing to stay in such a relationship (if what you say is true) would show me that they need different things to me. A partner who wanted me to stay in these sorts of horrid situations whilst they give it another try with a metamour I describe as abusive isn't a partner who wants the best for me. So if I were you, not only would I insist that I stop living with metamour, I'd be rethinking the entire relationship.
 
As far as posting private situations is concerned, I don't see that as a problem as long as people's real names are not used; furthermore, being able to post private situations is one of the main purposes of this forum. How else is someone supposed to get help for their problems?

Liz, I think you're doing fine. You're just caught in a really difficult situation.
 
I wasn't talking so much about this forum, it's the WordPress blog. The focus doesn't seem to be Lizzie's relationship with Jon, it's all about dissecting and rehashing conversations between Lora and Jon. I read a hell of a lot of poly blogs and whilst they of course refer to things that might be happening within their poly network, I've never seen a blog which literally gives the ins and outs of someone else's marital disagreements verbatim. That's quite unusual.
 
Coming from abusive relationships/households/situations, it's often common for people to need reassurance that they're not just making a "big deal" out of nothing. That it's not their "fault," they're not to blame, they're not "crazy," etc. Validation of their sense of reality can be incredibly helpful. And specific details about events allow others to say "nope, you're not fucked up, the relationship/household/situation is."

If Liz finds it useful to journal about these details, in her personal blog and here, I don't see the problem.

I do think the fact that Liz is so embedded in Jon and Lora's relationship is important and suggestive of her needing to step back and have a less enmeshed V. And that does seem to be where she is headed, ever since she started posting.

And I'll add - MightyMax, if you haven't heard about the ins and outs of other people's marital disagreements before in the poly blogs you've read - maybe that in itself is indicative to how much Liz is being exposed to Jon and Lora's problems. She is taking active steps to avoid having to hear the arguments or be part of them, but it seems that Jon and Lora are okay with arguing in front/around Liz. I couldn't imagine my partners being okay with that...
 
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We're in the middle of a bit of a break here, am I'm feeling wiped out, so I don't have too much to say at the moment, other than I don't know yet what's going to happen.

But, to answer the one valid comment in MightyMax's post (thank you, Kevin & reflections, for what you said in response to him); what would I do if Lora wasn't the bad guy?

Enjoy getting to know her and seeing how we can blend our lives together.

I'm going to assuming you didn't read back to the beginning of my blog, which I've posted here:

https://learningmanyloves.wordpress.com/2014/05/

I just reread a fair amount of myself. I wish things hadn't gone so horribly wrong and askew from that hopeful beginning.

And yes, it terms of not being around them fighting, given how often they fight (or bicker) at times, it's impossible to not be around it. I'm curious, to anybody asking why I don't butt out, exactly how does one butt out at 2:30 am, when woken out of a deep sleep by the yelling in the bedroom next door that is clear enough for me to hear the words? Or in the middle of the afternoon, if I'm in the living room and can clearly hear them fighting in the bedroom?

It seems that one good answer is for us to go back to not living together, which is definitely the direction we're headed in, though I don't know when it will happen.

But beyond getting away from the fighting. There is something I've realized that I'm not necessarily making clear here or to Jon and Lora. I'm not wild about their fighting. I'd rather they didn't fight so much. But the fighting, in and of itself, isn't necessarily a problem.

The problem is that WHEN they fight, Jon stays respectful, and is passionate in advocating for his own boundaries and needs. He stands up for himself and looks for a middle ground that they can both be ok with.

Lora will verbally attack him. She will call him fucked up. She will tell him that she knows that every time he has ever said he loved her it was a lie. She fights to hurt. To damage. To injure.

THAT is a problem. When she tries to control him, THAT is a problem. When she treats the time the three of us spend together as a competition, THAT is a problem.

Those are the things I can't live with. Those are the things that concern me about their relationship. Those are the things that I need a reality check about, because Lora (and Jon) treat her behavior as so normal that I start to feel like I'm the crazy one when my gut tells me that this is bad, and I need to get away from it.
 
I read those posts in the blog but there is nothing in it that says "me, Jon and Lora thought moving in together would work because we both love Jon and also me and Lora have this special connection that means we would also work as housemates".

I've lived with partners, I've lived with metamours. I've lived with a metamour whilst our shared partner lived with another partner. I've had really crappy relationships that have tainted the lives of everyone around us, I've had partners and metamours who have had crappy relationships which affect me and everyone else around them. Never would it be okay for me to share the details of these crappy relationships which I wasn't involved in but does affect me. Never would it be okay for me to share what they argue about verbatim. The answer is for me to remove myself from that situation, or remove them from my situation if I have that amount of control (ie the house is in my name).

I'm perfectly aware that remaining in a crappy situation with people who don't respect boundaries makes it very easy for your own behaviour to slip to resemble theirs. That's when it seems perfectly reasonable to say "if they don't want me to discuss, in detail, what they argue about on the Internet, they shouldn't argue about it near me". It isn't reasonable though. It isn't reasonable at all.

That is what I'm trying to point out to you, Lizzie, it seems like you are compromising your own good character by remaining around this. It's becoming normal to discuss other people's business in detail. Your partner is effectively rewarding Lora for her bad poly behaviour so you are prompted into competing with her by not-so-subtly pointing out all the ways you demonstrate good poly behaviour which isn't an attractive trait.

I've remained in situations that turn you into a person that you do not want to be. It's not always easy to turn back.

I suspect you know this though, Lizzie, and part of what you are scared of is whether things will go back to the balance you had before you started living together or will asking her to leave mean that she dominates Jon's time on the way that she does now, but it will be even worse without the prospect of being able to bump into each other in the bathroom for a quick chat. If Jon is worth his weight, it will, at the very least, go back to how it was. If he isn't, he will continue to allow Lora to harm your relationship.
 
MightyMax, while I respect that you believe what you believe is true for yourself, I completely disagree with it for myself, and disagree with the premise that, by discussing what is going on in detail, I am doing something wrong.

Were it easy to find me, Jon, or Lora, based on what I've written, then I would potentially agree with you. But I don't believe that anything I've said about the three of us identifies who we are or makes it possible to find us through my blog. Given that, then my writing, as a place of solace for me, and as something that hopefully people who have been in my situation will find and comment upon in ways that help me figure out what to do (or even just offer support), is an appropriate outlet for me to process what is going on. It also does really help me because in my actual, non-internet life, I've only told one friend what is going on. The main reason for that is the belief that maybe, in theory, therapy really will help Lora and if it does, I don't want to have poisoned my friend group by talking about the shitty things that she's said/done to Jon.

Although, despite my attempts to be neutral about Lora to my friends, it does seem like at least a few of my friends have decided that Lora is bad news, just based on what they've seen and heard when interacting with her themselves. I've mentioned a few isolated incidences to them, because (as I said), I don't want to poison the pool but I did need to vent a little sometimes. Most of my friends have spent very little time around Lora though, and the ones that currently don't like her are really good people who don't make absolutele judgments; I feel pretty comfortable that if Lora improves her behavior, they would slowly feel accepting of her.

In terms of living situations, I've lived with a number of people. I've had a fair amount of roommates in my life, including roommates who were the boy/girlfriend of my best friend(s) and I hadn't spent a ton of time with before we moved in. When I compare where I was in a relationship with Lora to where I'd been with other people who I've lived with, there weren't any screaming red flags that our moving in was a terrible idea. It seemed like a situation that could work. I would have liked for us to have spent more time and gotten to know each other better, but my understanding of Lora (and her behavior at the time) indicated that she was getting her shit together and would be a person who I could have a happy home with.

I understand you're not convinced of that. I really don't care, nor do I see the point of your post, other than to potentially shame me for talking about what is going on in my situation, and looking for feedback from anybody who has gone through a similar situation and what they did. You did offer a bit of that, but frankly, your attitude taints your advice.

If I feel uncomfortable with the person I am right now, it's not because of anything that you've tried to label me with. My feelings of discomfort mainly stem from how someone is going to get hurt no matter what happens. If/when we split homes, Jon and I will be hurting. If we didn't split homes and Lora continues to be verbally abusive to Jon and attempt to control him, then Jon and I will still be hurting, just in a different way. I assume Lora is hurting too, much of the time, and that is what drives her behavior. It's a hurtful situation all around, and I really wish there was a way out of it that wasn't going to cause more pain us.
 
This is where we differ: I think it's possible to discuss in detail how this situation affects you, without quoting their conversations verbatim. It's possible to say "they argued all night and that kept me awake" or even "they argued all night about me and that kept me awake". After all, you can only really seek advice about how you should manage your relationships, not the relationship between him and her. So whether they argue about the cats or about you isn't the issue, it's the fact that they argue around you and it disrupts your right to a peaceful living environment.

From experience of a partner who was in an abusive relationship, there is only so much you can do before you have to withdraw from the relationship for your own health. I think I mentioned on here before that I had to not only end a relationship with someone who actively chose to remain with an abusive partner, I had to also take steps towards protecting her child via the authorities.

So, yes, I have been in a similar situation to you, more than once and I'm not saying that you are a terrible person or even saying that you are to blame for the way things are. I'm pointing out that from experience, these "symptoms" in your behaviour indicate that this has probably impacted on your behaviour more than you consciously aware of and it is way past time to put a stop to it before you really start to lose yourself.
 
Re (from LizziE):
"MightyMax, while I respect that you believe what you believe is true for yourself, I completely disagree with it for myself, and disagree with the premise that, by discussing what is going on in detail, I am doing something wrong."
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I, too, disagree. As long as people's real names are withheld, you can post about them however you want.

This isn't the first time MightyMax has posted somewhere just to cause trouble. I wouldn't pay him/her too much attention.
 
Disagree with me all you want, but suggesting that I am just out to cause trouble because I object to someone spilling all the details of other people's private relationships without their consent is way below the belt.

If you wish to discuss your obvious animosity towards me after I criticised your approach towards Christians, contact me privately. If you do not wish to discuss it, kindly refrain from allowing it to spill into these threads.
 
Still don't agree with you about how it's changing me, though I note your point about the depth that I discuss things. And that is something that I struggle with, but I worry, as someone asking for help, about what level of detail is needed to convey the seriousness of the situation, and what details are relevant. Also, I want to make it clear that when I say "she says terrible things", they're...objectively terrible. It's not...there are times when I'd characterize the things she says as "playing hard" or "dishing out more than she's willing to take" and that annoys me, but it's not horrible. But when she says "Don't ever tell me that you love me again", that is a truly horrible thing to say to someone you're supposed to have a loving relationship with.

But typically, I am a person who discusses things in depth - sometimes too much so. I find it a hard line to balance.

I'm more worried about how much the stress of this is affecting my current long-term health problem that I've been trying to manage. I feel pretty certain at this point that it definitely is. It really worries me that this emotional situation could potentially be a large contributing factor.

I was going to write an update here, then I realized that this has shifted hugely from my original question, and decided to update my blog on the forum instead.

For the record, I wasn't trying to go below the belt, nor do I feel that I did so. I understand that you don't agree with the way I describe things - you think it's too much, and too detailed. And if I were using me and Jon and Lora's full names, listing the town we live in, and other personal details, I would agree with you. As I'm not, I completely disagree with you and read your comments as you taking your OPINION that I discuss things in too much detail, and treating it as an absolute TRUTH. I do take strong exception to that, and I will defend myself accordingly.

If I had genuine animosity towards you, I would completely ignore/block you. I would also not respond to the points you made which I feel do have some validity.

If you feel that my response has that much animosity and it bothers you that deeply, then I encourage you to block/ignore me.

Kevin - just saw your response, after I wrote all the above. Gotcha and thank you for letting me know. I hadn't realized yet (I'd add the embarrassed icon on here if I could).
 
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Lizzie - I haven't chimed in much but I have been following your threads/blog. I would like to join Kevin in disagreeing with MightyMax - I don't think that what you have posted here or in your blog crosses any lines as long as you maintain the anonymity of your polycule. Any detail that you feel is relevant to the discussion is fair game as far as I am concerned.

****JaneQ-centric tangent****

I DID discuss with my partners before I started posting here. My main question, at the time, was whether they thought that they would be reading and posting on here as well, as I wanted to know whether they would be part of my reading audience.

MrS's immediate response was that, if I needed a place to discuss and work out my thoughts/feelings and get advise, then he would encourage that and NOT read my posts (treating it like a therapy session, I can bring him my final conclusions but he doesn't need to be present as I work toward them).

Dude's response was that anything I wouldn't want him to read was exactly the things that he "needed" to know. We discussed it. He agreed that he wouldn't read my posts "over my shoulder" as I composed them. I told him that I wouldn't bring up any issues here that I hadn't informed him of first and that if he wants to read my posts he can but that I would prefer that he read them with me, so that we can discuss any misunderstandings or issues as they come up.

Now, at this point, I don't care if either of them reads anything that I have written. There is nothing in my posts that they don't already know. Lotus also knows my handle on here and has free access to read anything that she would like.
 
I also let my partners know I'm posting here. Hence the pseudonyms as lady's job as a primary school teacher requires a certain amount of closetedness. They know I need a space sometimes to talk things out. They are welcome to read but neither of them does. It's anonymous Internet space and the one nice thing about that is being able to vent and seek advice with less drama.
Lizzy in my opinion your posts are appropriate and allow us to give advice and feedback because of the details you share with us. I hope you can continue to use this space to process your struggles as you need to.
 
Thank you all for replying. Really, it means the world to me.

Jon is both not a reader of blogs, or of polyamory. Lora is the same. Their chances of finding this place (or my blog) are slim.

Nonetheless, I try, as much as possible, to ask myself before I post "If they found this, would I feel as though I'd done something wrong?". The answer is no. I wouldn't.

I would be apologetic for the parts where I'm not as compassionate as I'd like to be. But I do stand by what I've written. I would own it. I would also own it as my truth only. Lora and Jon have different truths. I'm sure they both have takes on the things I've described that are anywhere from mostly meshing with mine, to wildly different.

The hardest thing right now is that when I hope this gets "better", I hope that "better" means the end between Lora and Jon. I hate that I feel that way. But it's the truth and as much as that sucks, I can't deny it.

But whether or not it's the end for them, it is definitely coming to the end of the three of us living together. At least for now.

Leaving it now means living some chance open that if therapy truly helps Lora, I'll still be in a place emotionally to try to welcome her into my life again.
 
That sounds good to me Liz.
 
Hubby and S2 both know I post here, and I've talked to them about some of the things I've posted or have read that resonated with me.

I told both of them if they wanted to join the forum, that was fine with me, but asked that my blog thread be off-limits. (I post things there I wouldn't want them to see; they know that I post those things and the general reasons and topics, just not the specifics.) Hubby said he had no interest in joining because he doesn't want to know any more about polyamory; S2 said that while he wants to learn more about poly, since he's still trying to sort whether he's poly or mono, he wouldn't join this forum because he wants me to feel like it's my safe space.

Everyone has different comfort levels with what they choose to share and what they're okay with others sharing about them. Before I started posting here, I asked Hubby and Guy (my boyfriend at the time) if they were okay with me talking about them here, even though it might not always be favorable, and if they were okay with me sharing some things about our conversations, lives, etc. Both agreed. When S2 entered the picture, I asked him the same thing.

And if you all have read any of my posts, you've seen that I'm pretty damn good at oversharing. (And you're often seeing heavily edited versions of what I originally typed...) I'm comfortable sharing the amount I share because although I do have my home state visible... it's a big state. People here don't know who any of us are. And the guys know at least in general what I post.

If Jon and Lora are completely unaware that Lizzie is posting anything at all, *I* might think that isn't completely okay. But *I* am not Lizzie, Lora, or Jon. Lizzie has her comfort level with what she posts, and Jon and Lora have theirs. Speaking as someone with mental illnesses that heavily impact my ability to perceive things accurately and clearly at times, I can completely understand why Lizzie needs to detail things the way she does. It isn't really up to us to tell her she's right or wrong to post so much about Jon and Lora; that's up to them. At least in my opinion.
 
MightyMax said:
I agree that they might be completely fine with it. However, they haven't been given the choice.
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This is moot point, as the entire forum is based on the fact that most members participate here without consulting anyone first. I'm not sure why you'd be singling out the OP for doing what everyone else does. If we required informed consent of all mentioned parties, we wouldn't have a forum.
 
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