Having too much trouble letting go of the past

[CTF]

Some of you know from past discussions that I'm a staunch monogamist, and simply cannot understand polyamory. My wife came out as poly to me in June, and ever since, it's brought our marriage to within inches of being over. She hadn't slept with anyone (which I believe), but did become emotionally involved with someone who lives in another state.

I wrestled between attempting to accept this side of her, despite the shock of feeling like I was looking at a stranger, while the woman I've known for 20 years was gone forever, and refusing to live in a situation where I could never be comfortable. Ultimately, after a little over a month, I gave her the ultimatum... Either she completely removes this person from her life, or I walk. It was the hardest thing I've had to do, but I knew that I would never be able to accept having to share her with another.

She agreed to to cut it off, and stay with me - to which I was relieved - even though it bothers me that the circumstance ever came up where such a choice should have had to be made. A huge part of me still feels that the only reason she made the choice, was because I had to place the ultimatum to begin with, rather than stop on her own accord once she saw how much pain this has caused. My philosophy in marriage has always been... Never say or do anything that would hurt your husband/wife. And if you do, then stop it immediately.

It's been 2 months since this guy has gone away (assuming she's telling the truth). And while things have seemed to improve in our relationship at home, I find myself still reeling in what may, or may not have been going on for the previous 8 months. We've talked about it over & over to the point where there is no need to continue discussing it without making things worse. But the feelings of rejection & having been replaced during an already difficult time (my father had passed away shortly before, and was also recently diagnosed with clinical depression) still remain.

She tells me that she never had any intention on acting upon anything, nor was she going to put any pressure on opening our marriage. But, to me, even the desire to sleep with someone else feels like a slap in the face to me. And loving another means less place in her heart for me.

I know that most will see this and wonder what I'm so upset about. She did what I asked... I "got (my) way". On an intellectual level, I agree. But emotionally, I cannot seem to make these feelings go away.

 

[KC43]

I think it's honestly pretty common for people, whether monogamous or not, to "desire to sleep with someone else." You see someone sexy, or get to know someone and feel an attraction, your mind might start wandering to what they'd be like in bed.

That isn't an indication of anything negative in and of itself. Many humans are wired to see an attractive person and want to get physical with them. In a closed marriage, desiring someone else sexually is only a problem if that desire is acted on, or is told to the object of the desire. In some closed marriages, where actually *having* sex with someone else is completely out of the question, *talking* about it with each other in the context of sharing sexual fantasies can actually be kinda hot.

Your issue seems to be that with your wife, you see that there *was* a potential for her to act on that desire. It's understandable that the possibility would upset you when it had such an obvious chance of becoming reality.

As for the "less room in her heart"... I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Parents don't have "less room in their heart" for one child when they have another. For that matter, children don't have "less room in their heart" for their parents because there are two or more of them. People don't have "less room in their heart" for their friends but usually have more than one of those.

You can't conceive of being in love with more than one person, so to you it's a quantitative thing. But to people who are polyamorous, and even to people who aren't... Love is an infinite thing. There's no such thing as "less" when you love more than one person. There might be less time; there might be less communication; but the amount of love the person feels and the "room in their heart" remains exactly the same for their partner regardless of whether or not they have additional partners.

I do understand why you think in terms of quantity, but please try to stretch your brain to understand, at least intellectually, that that isn't how it works. It's not sharing cookies, where if you give some to one person you have fewer to give to the next. It's love.

(I edited this because I got overly harsh at one point... pissy mood FTW. Sorry, CTF.)

 

[YouAreHere]

Seems to me that you were in an extremely vulnerable place, emotionally, when she told you. Regardless of whether or not she meant to hurt you, you were hurt when you were already raw.

It's understandable that you'd need time to heal a bit, even if you hadn't been vulnerable, as this type of discussion really shakes up your assumptions about life - where you're going as a couple, what you both really want out of life, etc. Add that to depression and the death of your father, and it's going to take a lot more time and self-care to get through it. Are you seeing a counselor?

 

[YouAreHere]

You can't conceive of being in love with more than one person, so to you it's a quantitative thing. But to people who are polyamorous, and even to people who aren't... Love is an infinite thing. There's no such thing as "less" when you love more than one person. There might be less time; there might be less communication; but the amount of love the person feels and the "room in their heart" remains exactly the same for their partner regardless of whether or not they have additional partners.

I do understand why you think in terms of quantity, but please try to stretch your brain to understand, at least intellectually, that that isn't how it works. It's not sharing cookies, where if you give some to one person you have fewer to give to the next. It's love.

For me, the intellectual part was simple - the emotional part, not so much. It's a lot of work to try to figure it out even when you have a decent emotional footing otherwise. I still don't "get" it fully, but I make up enough analogies that make enough sense for me to accept it.

I'm concerned that CTF's depression and death in the family rocked his emotional foundation even more, making it even more difficult. This seems to be one of those "put on your own oxygen mask first" moments, before he tries to understand his wife's POV.

(Edited to add: Dangit, KC! You keep posting (and editing) while I'm typing! No fair! )

 

[KC43]

Sorry! I only edited once... 'cause I didn't want to be a bitch. LOL

Like I said, I do understand why CTF is seeing it the way he is, and I also completely get that emotions aren't always rational. That's why I encouraged him to try to look at it intellectually; sometimes doing that can counteract the emotions that are shouting "No! It's this way!"

And yes, CTF definitely should be taking care of himself and his needs first. I wasn't so much trying to get him to see his wife's point of view; I was more thinking that if he could change the way he thinks about the "less room in her heart" part, he might not feel as rejected and depressed about her feelings for him.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi CTF,

I am concerned that you and your wife might both be entering into a stage of marriage where you're both unhappy, and it's a stage that might last the rest of your lives. First I'm unsure of whether your wife will be able to obliterate every trace of polyamory from her mind. And even if she can, you're still stuck with feelings of betrayal and an inability to let go of the past. You mentioned that your wife is a stranger to you now. Can a happy marriage stem from this state of affairs?

I can't remember if either/both of you are seeing a counselor?

It's easy to see from your writings that you are deeply hurting inside, right down to the marrow of your bones. I'm sure this is something you wouldn't have dreamed of in your worst nightmares. Polyamory isn't a well-known phenomenon. But it's wrought terrible damage in your life, and I am sorry for that.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[CTF]

Thank you both. And yes, I get exactly what you're saying on an intellectual level, but, the emotions don't necessarily carry over in the same fashion.

I've always looked at love in a quantitative fashion. But, I've also looked at it as coming in different forms. The love I have for the kids, is not the same as the love I have for my parents, and it's certainly not the same as I have for my wife. I come from a small family, so the opportunity to introduce more people to "love" was never really something that's been a practical reality for me. But I've also never looked at love as simply an emotion that one feels. To me, love is just as much a willingness to express it, than the feeling itself. One can tell another that they love them all they want, but if they're unable, or unwilling to show it, then they're hard pressed to say that they really do love that person. Furthermore, I've always found that love is a special thing... And to consider something infinite, negates the special quality. At least, in my mind. The phrase "I love you", is something that I've always had trouble saying to anyone but my wife & kids. I never even initiated saying it to my own dad until I was in my mid 30s. So to examine the concept, even to a degree on an intellectual level, is something I doubt that I'll ever understand.

Yes, I'm seeing a therapist. I don't think it's helping all that much, but I recognize that I owe it to our marriage, as well as myself. Once it became clear that the insomnia & loss of appetite weren't just temporary unless drastic changes to the situation took place, I had no choice but to do something about it. I was getting 8-10 hours of sleep a week, and lost 24 lbs in a month from eating once every 2-3 days. My Dr even thought I might have kidney disease, fortunately, the tests came back negative.

The timeline basically went like this... My wife began communicating with an "old friend" online last October. My dad passed away in January, and the day after he was gone, she mentioned some article she read on polyamory, where she began to defend the partners involved, and that she, herself, tells her friends that she loves them. I really wasn't focusing as much on that, because I was in heavy grief mode. I thought that she was maybe, trying to distract me at the time... But looking back, I feel as though she was trying to hint at something, knowing that I was more focused on my dad.

My dad & my wife were really the only two people I've ever been able to confide in. And I had just lost one. So when I remarked to her, that she's all I have left to talk to, she seemed offended. At the same time, she was spending hours each day talking to him, texting, playing online video games, and even watching movies together by syncing up Netflix & Skype. And despite my pleas for us to spend time together when I needed her, it was always, after this match, after this movie, give me 10 minutes (which would turn into a couple of hours). She had completely disconnected herself from our marriage, and our household.

In June, I came home one day to find the house a complete mess (it had been all week, and neither she, nor my adult kids work). I said something about me being the only one who seems to care about anything anymore, and she snapped. She took off for a drive, and then came back to confess this polyamory. My first thought was about the sex... And the way she put it was: "I haven't slept with anyone, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to". That statement is where I see a big difference between having a curiosity induced fantasy about someone attractive, and having a real desire to take it to that level. There was a great potential for it to actually happen (aside from the distance) despite knowing that I have always been adamantly against us opening our marriage. I don't even have the fantasy of having a threesome with another woman.

 

[CTF]

Hi CTF,

I am concerned that you and your wife might both be entering into a stage of marriage where you're both unhappy, and it's a stage that might last the rest of your lives. First I'm unsure of whether your wife will be able to obliterate every trace of polyamory from her mind. And even if she can, you're still stuck with feelings of betrayal and an inability to let go of the past. You mentioned that your wife is a stranger to you now. Can a happy marriage stem from this state of affairs?

I can't remember if either/both of you are seeing a counselor?

It's easy to see from your writings that you are deeply hurting inside, right down to the marrow of your bones. I'm sure this is something you wouldn't have dreamed of in your worst nightmares. Polyamory isn't a well-known phenomenon. But it's wrought terrible damage in your life, and I am sorry for that.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Thank you. Yes, we're both seeing therapists.

She tells me that she's never been unhappy in our marriage. That the polyamory has nothing to do with how she feels about me. I also was never unhappy. Everything seemed to be going along very, very well up until that point. But see, anytime a problem in life occurred, I was always able to think to myself, that no matter what life threw our way, we always had each other- that - it always came down to just her & I. Which is something I cannot say if there's another person in the mix. I find no comfort in that thought.

It's not that I'm looking for her to obliterate every trace it polyamory. But every trace of the guy she was talking to was crucial. Just because I don't understand polyamory, doesn't mean that I can't accept her for who she is. I'd have rather she "came out" without there having already been an actual person involved. We could have tackled the issue itself, way before dealing with all of these new feelings with other people.

I really don't have anything negative to say about polyamory... I just know that it's not something I could ever participate in. She's ok with keeping our marriage closed, yet, I've made it very clear that I'm not preventing her from participating in it herself, but she knows that our marriage could never tolerate it. So it's a choice for her.

Yes. I am hurting. It's not the way I wished I would feel about it. I even told her that I really, really wished that I could be alright with it. In fact, that was the initial reason I sought therapy- to help ease me into being comfortable with it. It never did, so now it's all about dealing with the heartache & moving on. And thank you for the kind thoughts.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from CTF):

"I'm seeing a therapist. I don't think it's helping all that much ..."

Could the problem possibly be that your therapist isn't a good match? Do you think it would be worth the bother of trying a different therapist?

What do you feel has betrayed you the most: your wife, or polyamory itself?

 

[kdt26417]

Sorry, we're cross posting.

I guess I should ask, do you feel betrayed in general? perhaps because your wife was having an emotional affair without telling you?

 

[CTF]

Sorry, we're cross posting.

I guess I should ask, do you feel betrayed in general? perhaps because your wife was having an emotional affair without telling you?

No problem. To answer your first question. It's possible that I haven't found the right match with a therapist. Although, I've changed a couple of times and am onto my third one, so who knows as of yet?

In part, I think that may be the problem. I don't really know what bothers me the most. Each situation kind of rotates around in my mind, taking priority. It makes it very difficult to pinpoint, which makes it tough to work on.

I think the fact that any of it happened - be it beginning some sort of relationship, or even coming out as poly to anyone else before me, feels like a betrayal. If she really loves me more than anyone else, then how is it that I'm not afforded the courtesy of hearing about it first, unless there's something to hide?

That being said, the polyamory itself, is a huge problem for me. While it's more difficult to explain on the emotional intimacy part, it breaks my heart to think that she'd prefer to open her heart to someone besides me. As for the sex... I get this lump in my stomach just at the thought of it... And now, it's not just picturing her with some imaginary, faceless stranger as a concept. I can clearly picture who she would be with, and it disturbs me to put it mildly.

 

[YouAreHere]

*Light dawns on Marblehead over here*
I'd not associated your username with your previous posts, CTF - my apologies. I am familiar with your backstory...

That being said, the polyamory itself, is a huge problem for me. While it's more difficult to explain on the emotional intimacy part, it breaks my heart to think that she'd prefer to open her heart to someone besides me. .

This is normally where I'd share my experience, and how my partner doesn't necessarily prefer to open up to someone besides me, but instead prefers to open up and get close to multiple people in addition to me.

However...

With your wife spending more and more time with this other person online, and less with you, I can see how your experience has already been different.

You were introduced to Poly with a model in which you *were* experiencing scarcity of both her time and affection, so it makes sense that you feel pretty awful about the whole thing.

I'm glad you changed the focus of your therapy. It won't help overnight, certainly - trust issues take time to heal - but you're still headed in the right direction. Hang in there.

 

[kdt26417]

Yeah, finding the right therapist for you is a sucky process. Sorry you're on your third one, believe me I know, it can take more than that.

Re (from Post #11):

"If she really loves me more than anyone else, then how is it that I'm not afforded the courtesy of hearing about it first, unless there's something to hide?"

I'm thinking she may not have necessarily wanted to tell you at all -- then changed her mind. I guess fear gets in the way of love -- if you'd still call that love.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle. But kudos on securing a therapist. Keep at it.

I don't know if my POV helps you any but in case it does....

You seem to be saying that you think the only reason she decided to stay with you is because you gave her an ultimatum. Rather than stop on her own accord once she saw how much pain this has caused.

She did stop of her own accord once you made her aware of your pain. She chose you.

I think you are ruminating and overthinking and the result of you doing these round and round thoughts is you making yourself upset. I think your feelings aren't going to feel better until you learn to stop self triggering.

You are not you thoughts or feelings. You are the person DOING the thinking. Then experiencing some feelings as a result. So you can change your mind. Experience new feelings from the new thoughts. You can choose to let it heal.

Stop feeding the wrong wolf.

She's ok being Closed. She wants to be with YOU. You could focus on this instead when your mind starts wandering off to yucky thoughts that lead to yucky feelings. When they creep up, rather than diving deep into them to keep them churning you could put the brakes on. Say "Nope. Not going to spend time thinking that!" and go do something more productive.

Are you able to derive comfort that even in mourning for her father-in-law, even when coping with her husband in mourning, even when dealing with new self knowledge about herself, even when she's been stressed out... she STILL picks you? Can you give yourself permission to take comfort in that?

She loves you. You are loveable. You are enough for her. You are her husband. Do you not believe you are lovable?

I think the fact that any of it happened - be it beginning some sort of relationship, or even coming out as poly to anyone else before me, feels like a betrayal.

If this is the core belief all other thoughts hinge on, then you could change this belief. How does hanging on to that belief help you today? Could stop thinking any of it happening was a direct betrayal of you. Could start thinking it's just stuff that happened while both of you were in a mourning period. People get wonky then.

Are you able to reframe this as "X happened. It got wonky. Yet we made it through. She still picks me above all. Things in the relationship at home improved" to help you stay focussed on rebuilding connection?

rather than thinking

"She betrayed me. That any of this happened at all is just proof of her betrayal of me. Like A, B, C...." and focussing on things falling apart?

Mourning does things to people. It sounds like you shut down, and in her mourning she turned to others to meet emotional needs. And then she got a crush as a result. There is no judgement or blame here -- just saying that grief just takes people in different ways. Since you seem past the initial portion of that mourning, can you not chalk some of this up to that and let it go? She's let go of the crush person.

Could seek ways to reconnect with your wife now. Rather than spending time ruminating and creating emotional distance from your wife?

"My philosophy in marriage has always been... Never say or do anything that would hurt your husband/wife. And if you do, then stop it immediately."

I assume this applies to both her and to you. Not just her. When you sit around gathering thoughts as "evidence" to support an erroneous belief (ex: wife betrayed/rejected me) rather than focussing on your present day reality (ex: wife picks you above all else. Things have improved), is this you never saying or doing anything that would hurt a wife or husband in this marriage? Nope.

You are busy thinking things in your head that hurt the husband in this marriage. (You) You spend time thinking things that take away from your peace of mind rather than add to it. And later on, this behavior will hurt the wife (Her) also. If husband remains so caught up in his yucky thoughts that he is no longer present in helping to tend to the shared marriage.

If she really loves me more than anyone else, then how is it that I'm not afforded the courtesy of hearing about it first, unless there's something to hide?

Could challenge that thought. Like this:

She recently discovered something about herself and she's not some big expert at it. So can she be allowed to make some newbie mistakes? Yes. It could be that she's a newbie, confused and made some mistakes. Besides, that is past. How are things NOW? Improved.

it breaks my heart to think that she'd prefer to open her heart to someone besides me.

So why are you busy breaking your heart? Rather than examining you skills set so she can come to you in future?

When she shares her vulnerable things and you are in the habit of taking it a as a personal rejection of you rather than listening to her in her context? You wig out? That doesn't create safe space to share in.

You are not doing active listening. You are doing defensive listening. If this is how you respond a lot of the time? She may stop sharing as much because she doesn't feel safe sharing here with you. You seem to want her to come to you and share. So you could become a better listener and create a safe space to share in. Work to improve your listening skills.

As for the sex... I get this lump in my stomach just at the thought of it... And now, it's not just picturing her with some imaginary, faceless stranger as a concept. I can clearly picture who she would be with, and it disturbs me to put it mildly.

So why think this? She's HERE with you not off with someone else. You are stirring your own pot there.

Stop feeding the wrong wolf. Feed the other one. It's starving.

Talk to your therapist about helping you feed the other wolf. Help you let go of this twisted thinking.

That would be my suggestion. I hope you can spot it when your mind goes off into unhealthy thinking that is not reality. I hope you can learn spot yourself when you do it and how to reel it back in. I hope in time you can stop thinking about it so you don't even have to be reeling it back. It becomes no longer necessary.

If counseling doesn't work you may want to try something like Recovery International instead. Or even along with counseling.

Basically don't give up. Keep trying and give it time. Baby steps. Focus on what IS here. She's CHOSEN you. She has not rejected you.

Galagirl

 

[CTF]

I'm thinking she may not have necessarily wanted to tell you at all -- then changed her mind. I guess fear gets in the way of love -- if you'd still call that love.

It's hard to say really. My guess though, is that she was simply waiting for the right time to say something, and recognizing that breaking this news in the immediate aftermath of my dad's passing wouldn't have been the wisest of moves. That being said, if she had told me that this began around that time, but didn't feel the timing was right to say something, I think I'd have understood (whether or not I agreed) that much more. But instead, she chose to tell me that it actually began 6 months later. And that she only revealed her feelings towards him, 2 days before telling me.

What I did find odd, is that she would openly talk to him in front of me. Whether on Skype with me in the room, or texting him while sitting next to me in the car if we were both going somewhere. She never hid the fact that she talked to him, although, what was said during conversations via text/message or at times when I wasn't around, will always be a mystery. She'd be online with him sometimes until after 3am, so a lot could happen after I go to bed at 10.

 

[KC43]

I don't think that's odd. She wasn't trying to hide anything from you, and probably believed she was being more open and honest by having the conversations where you could, in theory, read over her shoulder to see what she was saying.

 

[CTF]

She did stop of her own accord once you made her aware of your pain. She chose you. Galagirl

Granted, she did choose me. And that is not lost on me, but, it didn't happen quite that simply. She saw it tear me apart for over a month. She knew the pain it was causing me, and had absolutely no intention of stopping the communication with him. She just figured that I would eventually get over it I suppose. But she was also looking at it as, "this is who I am, and you have no choice but to accept it". And it's not that I didn't try. Believe me I tried. She knew that I was uncomfortable with him being in the picture, and her resolution was that she would only spend time with him, while not in my presence. Tried that for a day, but it wasn't enough. The damage was done and he needed to go. She initially agreed to stop talking to him if that meant that the arguments would stop. That to me, suggested that it was more to keep the peace, that being really concerned for my feelings. But she still didn't stop. It wasn't until I had to tell her, very bluntly, that the last time I checked, this was my marriage too, and that I would NEVER feel comfortable or safe in it as long as he's in the picture in any way, shape or form.


Galagirl[/QUOTE]
I think you are ruminating and overthinking and the result of you doing these round and round thoughts is you making yourself upset. I think your feelings aren't going to feel better until you learn to stop self triggering.Galagirl[/QUOTE]

That's very true. I do tend to over-analyze everything. I've always been that way, and it's one of the areas that I'm trying to change.


Galagirl[/QUOTE]
You are not you thoughts or feelings. You are the person DOING the thinking. Then experiencing some feelings as a result. So you can change your mind. Experience new feelings from the new thoughts. You can choose to let it heal.Galagirl[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. Thank you for that.


Galagirl[/QUOTE]
Are you able to derive comfort that even in mourning for her father-in-law, even when coping with her husband in mourning, even when dealing with new self knowledge about herself, even when she's been stressed out... she STILL picks you? Can you give yourself permission to take comfort in that? Galagirl[/QUOTE]


Yes. I do find that comforting. And it's thoughts like that that really help me keep my head in the game. I completely understand that there has been a lot going on this year. I can appreciate that. And it makes me feel better to know that in light of everything, she chose to stick with me. Even after he suggested to her, that she leave me, or kick me out. (He wasn't happy about a few choice words I had for him in a message I sent). She was never going to physically leave me. But I don't think that she was aware that mentally, she had left me for 8 months, during a time in my life when I needed her the most.

Galagirl[/QUOTE]
She loves you. You are loveable. You are enough for her. You are her husband. Do you not believe you are lovable?Galagirl[/QUOTE]

Truthfully, that's a tough question for someone with depression like myself to answer. I spent my whole life feeling that I wasn't good enough for anyone or anything. It's not that I don't appreciate all of the good I've had in my life, but I've never felt like I "deserved" it. In her, I saw the one person who would never reject me. And when she did, it felt worse than any other rejection I've ever faced.


Galagirl[/QUOTE]
Are you able to reframe this as "X happened. It got wonky. Yet we made it through. She still picks me above all. Things in the relationship at home improved" to help you stay focussed on rebuilding connection? Galagirl[/QUOTE]

And that's what I'm trying. Thank you for framing it like that though.



Galagirl[/QUOTE] It sounds like you shut down, and in her mourning she turned to others to meet emotional needs. And then she got a crush as a result. There is no judgement or blame here -- just saying that grief just takes people in different ways. Since you seem past the initial portion of that mourning, can you not chalk some of this up to that and let it go? She's let go of the crush person. Galagirl[/QUOTE]

Actually, the way she put it, was that in mourning, I got too clingy. Which was something I apologized for profusely, even while it was happening. Personally, I don't think that I was too clingy, but I recognized the possibility that she saw it that way. It did feel that she actually shut down towards me. She kept talking about needing "time to myself (herself)", but that time really just consisted of spending hours on end with him. It doesn't appear that the relationship was a result of the grief so much, as it was an added element to the chaos already being experienced. Granted, I'm sure he happened to tell her all of the things that she wanted to hear, which caused her to go back to that well, and things just evolved from there. But when I'm sitting on the sidelines telling her that I'm upset and I need her, it just made me feel unwanted.


Galagirl[/QUOTE]
I assume this applies to both her and to you. Not just her. Galagirl[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. I don't hold myself to a different standard.

Galagirl[/QUOTE]
You are busy thinking things in your head that hurt the husband in this marriage. (You) You spend time thinking things that take away from your peace of mind rather than add to it. And later on, this behavior will hurt the wife (Her) also. If husband remains so caught up in his yucky thoughts that he is no longer present in helping to tend to the shared marriage. Galagirl[/QUOTE]


Exactly. I know I need to change my thinking on this... But definitely easier said than done. I have made the decision that we will no longer make this a discussion in our house. At least, not for a long time, and even then, it'll only be when we're able to discuss it constructively. If this is who she is, then I suspect this circumstance could happen again, even if it's with a different person. That's a fear that I live with. Any day, any time, it could happen again.


Galagirl[/QUOTE]
She recently discovered something about herself and she's not some big expert at it. So can she be allowed to make some newbie mistakes? Yes. It could be that she's a newbie, confused and made some mistakes. Besides, that is past. How are things NOW? Improved. Galagirl[/QUOTE]

Mistakes I can forgive... Although, she still insists that she's not done anything wrong, other than the disproportionate amount of time spent. She's apologized for that, but she still feels that I just made something out of nothing, and that the course of action was unnecessary.


Galagirl[/QUOTE]
So why are you busy breaking your heart? Rather than examining you skills set so she can come to you in future?

When she shares her vulnerable things and you are in the habit of taking it a as a personal rejection of you rather than listening to her in her context? You wig out? That doesn't create safe space to share in. Galagirl[/QUOTE]

Fair point.

 

[CTF]

I don't think that's odd. She wasn't trying to hide anything from you, and probably believed she was being more open and honest by having the conversations where you could, in theory, read over her shoulder to see what she was saying.

And that's what I thought too. Granted, I'm not saying that every conversation was filled with "I love you" & sex talk. But she did purposely position everything in a way that doing things like "reading over the shoulder" was impossible.

 

[GalaGirl]

I know I need to change my thinking on this... But definitely easier said than done.

Perhaps in this phase of things you could drop evaluation words like "easy" or "hard" and just make it be more neutral check list. Like...

"This has to happen and get done now. This has to happen and get done, but not right this minute. It can come later."

You have enough work to be doing without comments from the inner critic. You seem to cultivate a harsh one that likes to make side comments that shoot you down before you even get started.

Talk to your therapist about a strategy. You have several areas to work on. So you do not need a plan -- you need a collection of plans to address each area. A strategy.

And before you start fine tune sorting these areas -- dump what is dumpable even without examining it too deep just to lighten your load.

Granted, she did choose me. And that is not lost on me, but, it didn't happen quite that simply.

No, it did not happen simply. But it DID happen. You can be attached to outcome or method. Not both. In this case, could go with the outcome. He's out of the picture. Staying over focused on recent past is not helping you in present. And you seem to want to let it go below:

I have made the decision that we will no longer make this a discussion in our house. At least, not for a long time, and even then, it'll only be when we're able to discuss it constructively.

Good. Leave it alone and stop picking the scab.

I guessed wrong in how grief took you guys. But even so, it sounds like it ran you both way down. I still think X% of this UGH you can let it go as "grief weird." No further sorting required. Just box it up and chuck the box. Lighten your load.

• You got clingy.
• She went remote.

Not great, but be willing to let it go. You guys are not always going to be in mourning for parents. It was extraordinary conditions, not normal ones.

If this is who she is, then I suspect this circumstance could happen again, even if it's with a different person. That's a fear that I live with. Any day, any time, it could happen again.

What's so scary to you about poly her feeling some fleeting attraction and doing nothing much about it because she's commitment to her Closed married agreements with you? This might be an area to examine with your counselor.

I spent my whole life feeling THINKING that I wasn't good enough for anyone or anything. It's not that I don't appreciate all of the good I've had in my life, but I've never felt like THOUGHT I "deserved" it.

This lifelong thing is another area to talk to counselor about.

I do note you are in the habit of using "feel" for thoughts. It sounds persnickety but could learn to use THINK for thoughts and FEEL for actual emotions. Separate the two more.

Because I think in your case I think your bad thinking habits lead to bad feelings and until you learn to ID these bad thinking patterns separately as thinking patterns you can CHANGE... you are going to keep thinking them on autopilot and keep feeling bad as a result.

You are busy a lot of the time being your own self bully from habit. You think mean things about yourself. That behavior lacks self respect. You could treat you more kindly.

Then you cannot feel proud of you for doing that kind of bully behavior. Then you self esteem takes a ding. It is hard to hold a bully in high regard.

How is this cycle fun for you? Are you willing to work to let it go?

The way she put it, was that in mourning, I got too clingy.

She kept talking about needing "time to myself (herself)"

I don't see anything wrong with that. You wanted her to fill you up. She said no. She was empty. She needed to fill herself first.

We all need to put our own oxygen mask on first before trying to help other people.

How she chooses to do it -- read a book, garden, chat online... she's tending to her need to take brain off hook first until she's in a better frame of mind and more able to help fill you. There's nothing wrong with that. She did linger too long in Refill Land. She apologized for that.

Is it that you have an expectation that she should fill you up whenever you need even when she's empty herself? Are you not able to do some of your own refill?

when I'm sitting on the sidelines telling her that I'm upset and I need her, it just made me feel unwanted.

Let's slow that one down a bit.

when I'm sitting on the sidelines telling her that I'm upset and I need her...

Need her to do WHAT? Did you make an actual request? If she's not eager to do a vague something when she is run down... you could make your requests more specific requests. "Could you be willing to hug me for a minute?"

If you make a specific request and she says "No, not right now?" You could take it like she's not up for it right now. She's telling you HER tank is empty right now. It's about HER, not you.

it just made me feel unwanted.

What is "it?" I wonder if you instantly thought "She said no. ***She's rejecting me!***" in that moment. Is "it" your bad thinking pattern cranking up in there? If so?

IME, those habitual thought patterns happen in the blink of an eye. Which is why I encourage you to learn to ID them and not go deep down that road in your head even if it is a familiar old road. Learn to stop. But the brakes on. Change what you think to yourself.

There's extra issues here, certainly. But I think that's the bare bones thing. Learning to shut off that Inner Critic Machine in there from always being on "auto-pilot." Learn to stop being you own self bully.

I spent my whole life feeling THINKING that I wasn't good enough for anyone or anything. It's not that I don't appreciate all of the good I've had in my life, but I've never felt like THOUGHT I "deserved" it.

That is a self limiting belief you could change your mind about. How is hanging on to this belief improving your quality of life any? Talk to therapist about this.

In her, I saw the one person who would never reject me. And when she did, it felt worse than any other rejection I've ever faced.

I see that you feel terribly rejected. I am very sorry.

I do think you could work on not taking everything she does so personally.

I see that you want her to be your perfect everything person but she's not superhuman. She's only human.

Her saying no to a request from you is simply her not being up for the request right now. It is not rejecting you as a person and saying that you stink. It is her informing you about her current ability. You seem to be the one thinking the self critical thoughts that tear you down on autopilot.

You were struggling with grief and getting clingy. She was tired from already helping before. If you have a 1000 lb load of grief and want her to help you carry it, both of you being under 500 lbs is still too much for each of you. She's pooped. What is needed is more support people. Not you getting upset she says she's not up for carrying more load.

Mistakes I can forgive... Although, she still insists that she's not done anything wrong, other than the disproportionate amount of time spent. She's apologized for that, but she still THINKS that I just made something out of nothing, and that the course of action was unnecessary.

I think on that one both of you could agree to disagree and let it GO in the interest of peace and reconnecting with one another at this point in time. Until you both give up wanting to be "right" about things, and value "being in right relationship" instead? I think you will both continue to struggle on that one at the risk of it becoming a driving wedge between you.

It's ok to agree to stop struggling and be ok with it never being "solved" for who was right and who was not. Just agree to box it and dump it. Gift each other peace over it. Could put wanting to be with each other above wanting to be "right" in this case.

So if you can box up some of this huge UGH load into "grief wonky" and throw it out...

And you box up some of it into "we agree to disagree" box and throw it out...

Have you reduced the size of the load?

What's left of the stuff you need to sort more carefully?

• You learning to like yourself more?
• Learning to think in new ways rather than in the old familiar self bullying way?

Again... keep trying. Take it in baby steps as you sort. Hang in there.

Galagirl

 

[CTF]

Believe me, it's not that I don't want to. I've just never been that good at compartmentalizing things. Making a checklist sounds good, but to me, everything seems to intertwine, so it becomes difficult to see where one part ends, and the other begins. By brain has this strange habit of connecting EVERYTHING by associating one thing to another.

You're right. He is out of the picture. I remind myself of that every day. This was a point brought up in therapy. My therapist had put it very interesting way of putting it. She said that when I think about him, I should imagine that I'm spending time with him in person- such as hanging out for a bbq. And that I should ask myself how much time I want to devote spending time with him. It sort of works, but still working on that aspect. I keep having these dreams where he shows up at my house, and they ending up following me for a good part of the day. I know that they're just dreams, and not real, I just can't seem to get all of that nonsense to stop.

Yes, the grief definitely took a toll on both of us. Now, I don't know to what extent my neediness really became too much, but the fact of the matter is, that she was emotionally checked out before he even passed.

On the day that he passed, my mom called & asked if I could come. My wife chose to stay home and spent the whole day talking to him. I got one text from her over a 10 hour span where she asked how I was doing.

And yes, there were some specific requests. But mostly, it came down to things like, I would call her just to hear a comforting voice, and she would ignore the call because she was talking to him instead... Apparently, helping him out with some problem he had. Or, she would have a bad day & decide to call him and tell him about it instead of me, despite my telling her repeatedly, that it helped me just as much to hear her talk about her problems.


What was scary about it, was that there was nothing fleeting about it. She first met him 15 years ago (he was 16 at the time, so there was never a concern about a relationship evolving), so there's a definite history, even though they fell out of touch quite a while. She kept insisting that it's been platonic, but always left the door cracked open enough for the sex down the line, despite my adamant stance on monogamy as long as we've known each other. It's not that she's ever said that she would sleep with someone against my wishes, but she also knew my wishes extended to emotional intimacy as well, and that wall was breached.

I've been talking to my therapist about the lifelong instances. We do talk about more than just this circumstance, but they always seem to connect to one another, because they all boil down to the common denominator- rejection & lack of self worth.

I suppose I do use the word "feel" quite often. Generally, that's because I'm speaking about something on a non-intellectual basis. As I've said previously, I can understand most of the points that the poly folk mention on an intellectual level (such as infinite love, etc...), but I cannot necessarily identify with them for myself. So my feelings on a subject don't always become a product of my thoughts.

Yes, I suppose I do bully myself. I've always been my toughest critic. Not to say that I'm a perfectionist, but I won't open myself up if I don't even feel something is good enough.

I don't see anything wrong with her seeking outside sources of "filling up" either. I've never had a problem with her having friends, an confiding in them. The problem was, that not only did she spend too long at that well, it virtually stopped when it came to me. I'm not expecting her to carry 500 lbs all the time, but I certainly don't expect her to leave the room & me I'm on my own each & every time I need her.

Like I said, yes, there have been some specific requests, but also, I've remarked on instances that have changed. For example, when she was working, she'd call me 3 times/day, and I'd get a scattering of texts from her. "Love you", "miss you", little hearts/blowing kisses, etc... Once he entered the picture, she'd call me once every 3-4 days during her breaks, and at one time, there was 2 months in between texts. I've told her that I missed that, and that I'd like to have some of that back, but nothing ever changed. I would even initiate those, and would have little to no response. Once she stopped working, I would call her more, and she always acted like I was burdening her.

Honestly, it usually wasn't in the moment that I thought that she was rejecting me. Occasionally, yes, but it wasn't until I recognized the pattern, that it really began to bother me. Once in a while, being unavailable is understandable, but a repeated pattern of being unavailable for 6-8 months is indicative of a problem.

I wish I could avoid taking things so personally. In fact, I've learned to do that a lot by simply not opening up to, or caring about people. It's easier to face rejection when you don't care about the person rejecting you, it's another matter entirely, when it's the one you love more than anything.

Her say no may very well be that she's not up to it. But why not say that? Why, instead, say that she said no because I was too needy & she needed space from me? Of course she's only human, but so am I. When her mom passed, there was NOTHING more important than tending to her needs/thoughts/feelings. I've left work some days to be home with her when she was having an especially rough moment. I've sat up with her until the wee hours of the morning listening to every, and anything she wanted to get off her chest. When she needed a hug, I was there to provide it, when she needed alone time, I knew to leave the room. I just wish that even an ounce of that was reciprocated during my time of need. We even talked about that before my dad passed away. She acknowledged how much I was there for her, and promised to be there just as much for me, yet, when the time came, it was as though she fled the country.

It's not that I'm looking to be right. I really don't care about that. What's done is done. I think that more than anything, it would be nice if my feelings about the whole thing were acknowledged.