Having too much trouble letting go of the past

[GalaGirl]

Sounds like you also might need to tell more of you story -- esp the passing away of you Dad and express all the feelings you still haven't gotten to.

Making a checklist sounds good, but to me, everything seems to intertwine, so it becomes difficult to see where one part ends, and the other begins.

I get that it is overwhelming right now. That's why you ask for the therapist to help you make the strategy. Then you just do what you can, rest, and then show up again for a little bit more. Intertwined or not... one can only deal with so much in one go any way. Baby steps. It's ok.

She acknowledged how much I was there for her, and promised to be there just as much for me, yet, when the time came, it was as though she fled the country.

My father does that. He WANTS to be there for people but it wigs him out. Any mention if it at all and he wants to run for the hills. He doesn't want to see other people mourning, even though he knows it is natural. He doesn't want to deal with arrangements, even though he knows we cannot leave the deceased unattended. He doesn't want to go to funerals, because they are "too sad." He simply has not made peace with the fact that death is a part of life, and he spends a lot of energy avoiding making that peace.

I think that more than anything, it would be nice if my feelings about the whole thing were acknowledged.

As part of the process of letting it all go, is she willing to do that?

Galagirl

 

[CTF]

There's not really a lot to tell. At least, as far as my dad goes. we talked all the time, he got cancer, 10 months later he was gone. While I miss him every day, I've definitely made peace with his passing.

As far as my wife is concerned, I understand that the grief may have been hard on her, and that maybe, that's why she wasn't there for me like she said she would be. It just seems that that really wasn't the reason. To me, it appeared that this "relationship" with the other guy seemed more important, and so far, I've not been reassured otherwise.

She may be willing, but at this stage of the game, the question is whether or not I can even ask her that without ripping the scab open again. In some ways, she kind of has. I mean, it's not like she's told me that she disagrees with what I say I feel, but it's the defensive tone that she takes when talking about it. kind of like a sarcastic sounding "sorry I ruined your life" sort of response.

 

[GalaGirl]

In some ways, she kind of has. I mean, it's not like she's told me that she disagrees with what I say I feel.

Ok. So she kind of has. At some point you could decide to accept it as "good enough, doesn't have to be perfect" just so you can move it forward. Staying in the stuck is not great for either of you.

You both sound burnt out on it.

Galagirl

 

[CTF]

And that's exactly the point. I want to consider it as "good enough"- I really do. I've spent the last couple of months considering the positives & negatives of everything that's taken place. And as much as I'm trying to keep the positive aspects at the forefront of my mind, the negatives keep creeping in & eventually consuming my days. Fortunately, it seems as though I've been able to shut it off mostly by the time I get home, so that it no longer turns into endless discussions arising from that pained look on my face though.

But I've been thinking about this quite a bit too, and I think what bothers me the most, is that I've gotten the impression that she's not been completely upfront about how deep this relationship was. It feels as though she's content to sweep it all under the rug, since she's no longer communicating with him. As strange as it sounds, I would actually have an easier time moving on if there were romantic/sexual elements to it, providing she actually admitted it, rather than lie about it to "protect my feelings".

She swears up & down that this was never the case, that it's always been strictly platonic... But based on her inability to keep her stories straight at times, and the way she seemed to dial back the depth once she saw how upset the news was making me, I have serious doubts.

 

[tenK]

It sounds like you are trapped in a cycle of projecting your own thoughts and feelings on the issue. What you just said about suspecting she had deeper feelings but is sweeping them under the carpet literally makes no sense. If she had very strong feelings, it would have been very very hard for her to let go. In fact, she probably would not have. And yet she has, and she seems to have accepted that outcome now that it's happened. To me, that shows that although she may have preferred not to, the level of that relationship was sufficiently unimportant for it to not be a big issue. You seem to be the one giving it a greater meaning, not her.

I wonder if, had you been in her shoes so to speak, it would have HAD to have been a very serious connection or spark there for you to have acted as she did? And that this is part of what makes it hard for you, because you still don't understand how her thought processes and feelings tie in to her actions as you are still seeing everything from your own perspective. One of the hardest lessons I have had to learn in opening up my own relationship is how radically differently my partner thinks, compared to myself. Even though our values and many other personality traits align so well (in fact, perhaps because of how well we align in other areas) she still surprises me by acting in ways that for me, would signify something significant. As a perhaps trivial example, she cries very easily when she gets emotional. Sometimes even just when she's tired. I on the other hand, rarely cry, and so when I do, we both know something is seriously wrong. Because of that, I have had to learn to interpret her tears in a way that is more proportionate to her. I know (now) that reaching for the tissues probably does not signify a major meltdown (although it might), and I have learnt to relax and not freak out in turn. Conversely, she has learnt to take my tears a little more seriously, and that unless I explicitly tell her I'm ok, I'm probably not ok.

I think Galagirl has already given you some great advice here. Just beware of over-thinking this whole thing. You don't have to understand everything about this situation in order to move on from it. You are perhaps never going to be entirely clear on all of the details of what happened between them, or why. All you need to be clear on is whether you trust that she will communicate with you before taking such steps again. That trust is not going to be there overnight, but it will come about a lot faster if you can stop putting words (or interpreting thoughts, or retrospectively looking for actions) in her mouth. In other words, you need to accept that she views the world in a different way to you, and that that is okay. Your only guide to understanding her has to come from the things she says, and the way she tells you things are for her. Stop interpreting things through your own emotional filters because they are not serving you well here.

You are approaching this from a very you-centric place, and that is understandable. You have been through a lot, and it has been painful. But right now you are incapable of putting things into a more balanced context, and you are prolonging your own anguish far more than you need to. I have been there myself. I know it's hard to turn off the brain weasels. Try giving yourself a time limit each day on how long you will spend thinking and processing this stuff. Maybe 45 minutes. Once the time is up, move to another task, something physical that pulls you out of that head space, and you might start to find that you can enjoy your days a little more. You might also find that your 45 minutes becomes more focused and productive - instead of just being a mash-up of rethinking the past and reliving the pain, you might find you start actually organising your thoughts; seeing patterns in your own behaviour; identifying things you would like to change about yourself and how you interact with the world, and with your family; ways in which your wife has shown you love and affection, before this and after; ways in which the pair of you have overcome issues in the past. Rather than a 'thinking everything at once' you might start to be able to focus on a little thing at a time, and so make progress. Just a suggestion. I wish you well.

 

[CTF]

That's very true. I've often clarified that with my wife many times during these discussions as well, that the only perspective I have to identify with any of this is my own. I'd love to be able to better understand what goes on in the mind of others who share such drastically different sets of opinions. Try as might though, it's tough.

It's funny you say that about her ability to simply let him go with such - seeming - ease. She said that very thing the last time we spoke about it 3 weeks ago. She said: "If it was romantic, wouldn't I be much more upset than I am?" To which, I see the point... But I also see the flipside. Is it possible that the guilt of her getting deeper than she wanted me to know with him could make it easier to let him go in order to avoid digging any deeper into it? I'm curious because I have absolutely no experience with any of this. I have no desire to date, or sleep with another person. It's like that part of my brain that seeks it shut off the instant my wife & I got together 20 years ago. But I can see both scenarios as being possible. And yes, I'm aware that my wife has stated the former, but questions on the latter creep in there. She's already lied to me about a couple of things related, so the curiosity lingers a bit.

And yes, Galagirl has given some great advice... Frankly, you have as well. And I thank you both for that. It certainly is difficult to turn off all of this nonsense going on in my mind. But I also find it incredibly sad, to me, that I'm finding myself in the position where I must actively focus on the positive aspects of my wife, how she feels about me, how she thinks, what/who she chooses, when for two decades, there was never a second thought. I've always thought that I've been a good husband. I've treated her well, I've been (I think) as supportive as one can be, even if there were times that I would tell her things she didn't want to hear. I've also never seen myself as some sort of "authority figure" over her. We've been a team since forever, and yet, having to put this ultimatum on her, that's exactly what I feel like I had to be... I felt guilty for acting, almost, like a parent, but I also had no reservations regarding my monogamy. In fact, we've had talks about it before. From time to time, she's brought up conversations about sleeping with other people. They never really went all that far, but she's mentioned things like, she'd have no problem with either of us sleeping with someone else (both in the context of individually, as well as together like a threesome), albeit, never with anyone specific in mind. I've always made it very clear (not in an angry, or threatening way, mind you), that I have absolutely no interest in that. She's always know that, not only do I not fantasize about sleeping with other women, whether she participates or not, but that just the thought of her with someone else (man or woman, with or without me) hurts to even consider.

Several months back (I suspect she was gauging how I would react to the news she would eventually break, testing the waters so to speak) she once asked me who I would choose to bring into our bedroom. I gave her a name of one of her friends (female) that we were both very close with. I told her that she would be the ONLY person on the planet I would even give an ounce of consideration to, BUT, I would literally have to have a gun to my head to make that choice.

Now, on one hand, I recognize that my foot down stance on the subject had probably made it difficult for her to reveal this about herself to me. But she also knew my stance way before getting involved with this guy, so why bother? I know that I (yes, it's a me-centric thought, I'm not trying to be stubborn, just trying to understand) would never allow the possibility to present itself if I knew that it was going to devastate her.

Look, I don't know... I'm not trying to come off as a negative person, or a stubborn bully. I apologize if that's the way it appears. Sometimes I just feel like an idiot for being so blind to something going on right under my nose for the better part of a year. As well as unspeakable anger, even hatred, for this guy, who it feels like he stole 8 months of our marriage from us.

But baby steps and breathing... I know. I have a lot of healing to do.

 

[GalaGirl]

Sometimes I just feel like an idiot for being so blind to something going on right under my nose for the better part of a year.

It can be "I did not notice this until X point in time. I regret that I did not become aware of it sooner."

No "idiot" name calling self bullying required.

As well as unspeakable anger, even hatred, for this guy, who I THINK stole 8 months of our marriage from us.

That's what I meant before about you needing to tell more of you story and express all the feelings you still haven't gotten to. Could talk to your therapist about appropriate anger management.

You think Dude stole 8 mos from your marriage.

You overthinking about him in your head is you engaging in nonproductive thoughts that keep your from connecting with your wife. So... you gonna tack on how many MORE months stolen from the marriage like that? Another 8?

But I also find it incredibly sad, to me, that I'm finding myself in the position where I must actively focus on the positive aspects of my wife, how she feels about me, how she thinks, what/who she chooses, when for two decades, there was never a second thought.

Are you saying you miss being able to take her for granted?

I think what stops you from considering it "good enough" even though you want to is some poor listening skills and some cognitive distortions and bad thinking habits you are trying to break free from.

Those are things you have to work with your therapist on. I'm sure wife has some things to work on too, but that's her job. You do your part of the job and work on you. Each one holds their end of the stick so the marriage can return to health. You are improving already -- keep going.

I don't think there is one big thing you can do. It's going to be a list of small things you keep knocking away one at a time:

• Stop calling self names.
  
• Start improving listening skills and holding space skills so others feel safe sharing with you. You seem to want people to share with you more.
  
• Use "feel" for actual emotions. And "Think" for thoughts.
  
• Feed the right wolf. Stop feeding that other one.
  
• Stop overthinking/thinking all over the place. Set a time aside each week to think those things. When negative creeper thoughts pop up, RESPOND. Say "Nope. Not the time. We think that on Friday." Or whatever time you pick. When the time comes, set a timer for an hour, and think all you want. If you don't finish when the timer goes off, think some more next Friday. Keep a notebook if you want. Show to therapist.
  
• Express your anger with Dude to therapist. Ask for anger management help.
  
• Stick to not talking about this at home. Instead, make dates with wife to reconnect.
  
• Ask therapist for help making bigger strategy. For now do the small ones you can deal with.

Could reading poly hell help you any? I know this was a crush thing that had her all distracted and not like everyone agreeing to be in a "V" -- but I think you are processing some of those feelings anyway. Maybe there are tips in there that could be helpful to you both as you seek to move it forward and rebuild connection between you and wife. talk to you therapist about that, and when ready, invite your wife to a therapy appointment to go over it.

Don't be dropping bombs at home. I think both of you need to know that home is the "safe zone" right now and this isn't going to be brought up over and over at home endlessly. Home needs to be a place where you both feel safe and can rest. If you are going to talk about it all all, do it in session with the therapist present.

I wish there was just "before" and "after" for you but there isn't. You are in the transforming "during" part. And it can take a while. Be patient, keep working with your counselor, and keep trying.

I do see you struggle. Hang in there!

Galagirl

 

[CTF]

No, not at all. I understand that's how that came out. Poor choice of words on my part. I just meant that it was always a given as to how we felt about one another. Historically speaking, we've always communicated very well with one another. But, at the end of the day, we knew that we each had the common goal in mind with one another. I never had to consciously remind myself of all of the positive things about her, because I was always at peace with knowing they were there. There was no effort involved in knowing how she felt about me. She showed it, and I knew it. We didn't have to constantly talk about it.

But now, having to constantly, and consciously remind myself that she loves me, makes things feel forced, or manufactured. I think of it like breathing. Our bodies breathe on our own without ever having to worry about it... So when we have to stop, and tell ourselves to breathe, it's usually indicative that there's a problem.


And I'll admit, I may have some of those poor listening skills. Not all of them mind you, but I can concede that I may be guilty of the defensive listening and ambushing (for lack of a better word).

I've actually read poly hell. Someone suggested it a while back, and aside from certain differences, it definitely spoke to me. It didn't exactly help me to move forward in the way I wished, but it was instrumental in at least helping me identify what I was feeling.

Thank you so much for the help. I know this isn't an overnight fix. Unfortunately, my wife doesn't seem understand why it isn't... After all, she gave it all up for me, so I should just instantly be happy, right? That's the way she sees it anyway.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from CTF):

"When she was working, she'd call me three times/day, and I'd get a scattering of texts from her."

That reminds me of something you said in your other thread:

"She had been having problems at work for a while. I told her repeatedly, that if she was unhappy there, then she should find something else and leave. He, on the other hand, convinced her to quit back in February, with, or without having another job lined up. Guess whose advice she followed?"

Question: Is that still an issue? Is it part of the reason why you feel so mad at that guy? Has she found another job yet?

 

[CTF]

Re (from CTF):


That reminds me of something you said in your other thread:


Question: Is that still an issue? Is it part of the reason why you feel so mad at that guy? Has she found another job yet?

It's definitely part of the reason I'd been mad at him, but more in the bigger picture sense - where - he seemed to have this, sort of, ability to get her to act upon impulse, without having any concern for the consequences. It was an indication that she valued what he had to say, much more than anything that came out of my mouth.

And no, she has not found another job. Nor is she looking. In fact, she's made it clear that she has no intention of ever going back to work. Fortunately, we can afford for her to stay home. She doesn't need to work in order for the bills to get paid, but it's given her nothing productive to do with her time. She occasionally does some light housework, but I'm the one who still does the shopping, cooking, fixing things around the house, etc...

 

[kdt26417]

Perhaps you feel unfairly treated in that you have to do most of the work? To quote "Kramer versus Kramer," you have to bring home the bacon and you have to cook the bacon as well.

If she is not willing to get a job, would she be willing to do more of the work at home?

 

[CTF]

Yeah, that's part of it... At least, it doesn't help matters any. In fact, it was an argument where I was upset that I had been coming home to a messy house, had to figure out & prepare dinner for a houseful of people who spent the rest of the evening on their computers ignoring me. This upset her, she went for a drive, came back home angry with me because I kept trying to call her to find out where she was. Once I got my point across that I was hurt by this, her tone changed & then she broke the news to me about her poly discovery.

 

[kdt26417]

Okay, I'm getting the chronology worked out in my mind. I don't mean to belabor this particular point, but maybe it just illustrates that you're dealing with many "lesser" problems at the same time, and that kind of adds up to a big giant composite problem. Does that sound accurate?

 

[CTF]

No problem at all. Here. I'll help you out with the timeline.

Oct. 2014, My wife reconnects with this old friend after 7 or 8 years. Begins talking, texting, Facebook, Skype chat, etc... Conversations become more & more frequent.

Jan. '15, My dad passed away.

Feb. My wife quits her job.

June. We have the the argument mentioned earlier, and subsequent poly revelation.

From the time she began speaking with him, until she quit her job, she was extremely apathetic about work. She had actually been having work troubles a year before, but apparently, he became the voice of reason for her to quit caring about the consequences.

After quitting her job, she became apathetic about the household. No cleaning, no cooking, just playing online games & watching movies. Usually with him via syncing Skype & Netflix.

During this time, especially after she quit working, she would spend the entire evening (every day, mind you) with him doing the movie/game thing.

June 12. I decide enough is enough. Already had a bad day, and came home to an even worse night.

Even since, I've been severely depressed, anxiety-ridden, lost a ton of weight, and could barely focus on my job. All while trying to accept this relationship.

In July, I finally said enough was enough, and told her that this- whatever it was- was killing me & I could no longer be comfortable in our marriage as long as he was in the picture. She agreed to get rid of him, but it still took more than a week for it to happen.

That's pretty much where we are now. I'm trying to heal, but these are some deep wounds.

 

[kdt26417]

See, when you add all that up, it adds up to a huge load you carry on your shoulders. Maybe you're having trouble letting go of the past because there's too much past to let go of?

 

[CTF]

I agree with you on that. It's interesting, I was having dinner with an old friend from High school a couple of weeks ago who said the very same thing. All in all, this year has been one that I would love to just toss in the dumpster.

The weird thing is, that when I think about losing my dad, I'm less upset that he's gone, and more depressed about how it felt like I had to deal with it all alone, while she was engrossed in the excitement of having this new "relationship". For months, I've felt lonely & abandoned from the last person that I should ever have to expect it from.

 

[kdt26417]

Can you forgive her? What would have to happen to make it possible to forgive her? What would have to happen to make it possible to heal?

 

[CTF]

I can definitely forgive her... More than anything, I would just appreciate a sincere apology, and an acknowledgement of my feelings without the defensive tone.

 

[kdt26417]

It almost sounds like she is the one having trouble letting go of the past.

 

[GalaGirl]

The weird thing is, that when I think about losing my dad, I'm less upset that he's gone, and more depressed about how it felt like I had to deal with it all alone, while she was engrossed in the excitement of having this new "relationship". For months, I've felt lonely & abandoned from the last person that I should ever have to expect it from.

Well, that's progress. You have moved (past mourning for Dad) and are now processing this next hunk of (mourning that she wasn't there for you like she promised.) It is not instant --= you need time to digest this huge load from the last year.

I am sorry she wants it to be instant. But don't take that on board for yourself like you are "failing" somehow. You are not. Guard against taking things personally.

She has her own load to digest. Let it be only HER load. Don't take on more for yourself. You have enough on your plate.

For months, I've felt lonely & abandoned from the last person that I should ever have to expect it from.

"Should" could be something you might want to let go. It could be a plain

"She promised to be there, I believed her. Then she was not. Last person that I expected this behavior from. I've felt disconnected, lonely & abandoned.

She totally was not there for you like she said she would be. I'm not arguing that.

But "should" talk -- that's another cognitive distortion. If you are seeking mental wellness so you can stop ruminating and over thinking, you could work on kicking those distortions to the curb with your therapist. Maybe print the list and highlight the ones you can see and take then in to the counselor.

That whole time -- her having job problems, then seeking escapism into computer world, quitting work and neglecting home, neglecting promise to support spouse in grieving... sounds like depression to me. Not that it makes her checking out ok, mind you. It is not ok to just check out. If she's not well it is her responsibility so seek therapy.

It's just that in reading, I get the impression that you both have been in some kind of defensive listening feedback loop. Like both do defensive listening and then you go into this (Who is the more depressed? Who is the one who had a bigger burden?) THING. That's just not productive. Home definitely needs to be a safe zone.

I can definitely forgive her... More than anything, I would just appreciate a sincere apology, and an acknowledgement of my feelings without the defensive tone.

So... you have the ability to forgive her. But you are withholding forgiveness until she makes a sincere apology without the defensive tone? Until she apologizes "good enough" for you? Is that what you mean?

Even though you also say that she has said those things good enough already?

I think you could take what you have so far so you can move it along in your process. You decide to forgive, then you ask her to make amends. On the "today" stuff. Not the past crush stuff -- you both sound sick of it by now. Dude is gone -- do not spend more time talking about him with wife. Only to therapist. With wife focus on the TODAY stuff and on rebuilding connection.

• It's ok she's not working, but if she need therapy, she needs to see someone. Not seek escapism in computers again.
• It's ok to be blah for a while, but the house still needs running. It's been a while. So she could take steps to pick up her share of her chores again. You do yours.
• You are working on your stuff. You see a therapist. It is NOT ok say she thinks you are not going fast enough. She could keep her evaluations to herself. She is not your therapist.
• Keep healthy boundaries. Home is neutral zone.
• Make plans together than are pleasant and fun. Make dates. Catch a movie and a pizza.

At a later point in the journey you may get the more full apology you hope for. But you aren't going to get better from a broken sounding person right now. And since you are broken right now too and sometimes do defensive listening, even if she does do it you might not hear it through broken ears.

So... go with what you have and move it along to taking actions. Too much time in your head. Moving on to doing stuff might help balance that out.

Hang in there.


Galagirl