Where from here? Let's talk.
- Thread starter Xftmfz
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Actually, by "benefit", I'm referring to whether or not we're considering something that would improve the quality of the marriage. So the question is, would polyamory improve, or deteriorate your marriage?
Now, if monogamy makes you feel incomplete or unfulfilled, then you might just have your answer on what to do. Sadly, some couples are so fundamentally off on this, that there will never be a middle ground.
You might see monogamy as "possessive". I know a lot of poly folk tend to see it that way. And you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But that rests on the false premise that monogamists, such as myself, view our partners as property. The truth is, that there is only so much love, time & attention to go around. Personally, I don't have the ability, let alone the patience or even the willingness, to "love" another person as I do with my wife. I give every ounce of energy I have to her. My heart belongs to her. Period.
As for what I did to give the concept the benefit of the doubt... Well, I tried to understand the concept. I tried to take into the consideration the beliefs that some people have, that love is "infinite", etc... And we've had conversations over the years regarding our thoughts on open marriages in general. While we never had specific talks with intentions as an effort to open ours, I've been crystal clear in nearly 17 years of marriage, that others can choose what makes them happy, but I will NEVER be ok with either one of us sleeping with another. My decision was made well before the circumstance hit home, and she knew it. There was never any need for such a discussion. To be fair, I do think that it would benefit your wife to read up on the topic. I certainly did that. I did want to understand what the poly perspective was like. I read countless articles, sought therapy, and talked to many on this site. I'm not saying she should just turn a blind eye & refuse to listen. But don't think that it's going to change her opinion at all.
As for swingers... I've never heard of them being ranked below homosexuals. And personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with either group. As long as everyone is a consenting adult, it's none of my business.
well bravo for not acting on it. But the way you made it sound, is that you would have if she didn't change her mind & say no at the last second. If I misread that, then I apologize.
Ok, maybe that's all you're asking her to try to do, but maybe she needs you to try & see why letting go of those beliefs are impossible. To some (myself included), they directly affect the marriage.
No, I don't think that protecting who my wife has sex with is protecting my marriage. Of course a marriage is more than sex. We wouldn't have lasted as long as we have if either one of us felt otherwise. But just because a marriage is more than sex, doesn't mean that sleeping with others will have no consequence to it. I'm a one woman guy. I am who I am. When we got married, she claimed to be a one man girl. If she has changed, then I can deal with that. I have not changed though, so for her to live that life, she'll have to do that without me.
Yes, people fuck up in marriage in all sorts of other ways. And just so we're clear, lying, stealing, etc.. are also just as valid fuck ups. No one is getting a pass for lying, or being abusive. It's true, marriage is a commitment. It's a commitment to love your partner & care more about their well being & security than your own. But that doesn't mean that we roll over & accept every one of their actions. Especially, when it's an action that displays a lack of love. To me, one cannot love their partner & sleep with someone else. I know you'll disagree, but I know for myself, that I could certainly never do it while claiming to love my wife. The whole thing is just repulsive to me.
Actually, given the course of action ours took, I'd say it was pretty equal as to which one of us cared more about our marriage. But really, it's not a question about the marriage itself, but rather whether or not we care about each other as human beings. On her side, she loves me so much, that she's willing to cast the poly stuff aside to make me happy. On my side, I love her so much, that I was willing to set her free to explore it at the dissolution of our marriage. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy she chose me, but I wasn't unwilling to allow her what she might have been after. I just know that I couldn't handle the pain of seeing her with another.
Sounds like both of you are living right on the edge of emotional overload 24/7 for a talk to have gotten that heated and bad right out of the gate.
Glad that emailing kept you both cooler.
I guess you need to listen to people who are hardwired mono, and people who are just brainwashed to being mono from society, and eventually determine which one she is. Despite her initial confusion, and despite the swinging (sex with others), she may be incapable, or at least highly disinterested, in romantic love and commitment with more than one. And in being in relationship with someone (you) who is capable of loving more than one.
I guess you know this. You want to "push" her until you're positive beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is incapable of loving more than one, and unwilling to be married to a poly man also.
Of course, if you keep "pushing," she may just fall out of love with you from the huge discomfort, or excruciating pain of being put through this, and then, problem solved! Divorce would be a no-brainer. Or she may fall in love with one of her swinger partners, if you start fucking others in different rooms (as you want), or dating others and fucking others independently (poly style). Being unable to love more than one, she may transfer all her affections to another, making you, your needs, desires and choices, basically irrelevant to her. How would that feel for you?
Nor should you be. But how much pain are you willing to inflict on the woman you love, to get what you want?
Oh, come on! If you leave, she doesn't need to change her views on how to love. Why would it matter to you if she changes or not, if you leave her? Then she'd be free to find a monogamous man to love, and this would all be moot.
Um, so you're saying if she doesn't agree to you practicing polyamory, you will go behind her back, cheat on her, and just hope you don't get caught? Or you'd be able to live with her suspecting, but never really knowing, that you're cheating and fucking and loving another woman, or women, that you're unethical, a lying bastard, etc.? I've seen this. It kills intimacy, when that kind of sketchiness is involved. Your marriage would become a sham. What's the point?
IndieSolo
Active member
I understand what you mean, OP, when you say you see leaving her as "taking away her option to change." It isn't that you want to force her to change, even though you'd love it if she would, but you want to give her every opportunity to at least understand what it is you want and why -- because leaving her would be the last resort, only after all other options have failed. You don't want to just up and take yourself out of the picture without knowing you tried everything to connect on a level where she isn't just reactionary and is actually listening to you, processing what you're saying, and giving it fair consideration.
When my ex-husband first told me he wanted a divorce, it came as a complete shock to me. I'd known there were issues we needed to deal with, of course, but I didn't see them as deal-breakers. I saw us both as two people willing to weather any storm together in order to come out the other side. So, I asked him to go to therapy with me and look at these issues -- because I didn't want to end the marriage without knowing we'd exhausted every possibility there was to make it work. I see what you're saying as something similar to that.
You want to be heard, you want to feel like your perspective matters to her just as much as her own does. So be it, if she finally concludes that poly isn't for her after looking at it from your perspective and learning something about it. You could accept that. At least, if you do walk away, you can walk away knowing she was given a choice and considered all possibilities before saying "no." But for her to categorically put up a wall about hearing anything... ugh. As long as she continues shutting you down, or freaking out because you want to move one more inch toward where you want to be, you feel like this whole world of possibility is being ignored by her, and like you and what you want is dismissed with prejudice (the meaning of prejudice is to "pre-judge" without having all the facts). I can't blame you. One of the basics I feel are necessary in healthy relationships is that each person feels heard.
As for "resorting to unethical means to meet your needs" (which I actually see more as wants or desires than needs, but to me they are still important) if all else fails, again, I understand that sentiment. I don't know if I would recommend cheating, but I do understand the emotions behind your saying that. You are hella frustrated! However, I don't agree that cheating would be the more successful option than leaving her would be, if the goal is freedom to live your life as you see fit. To cheat, you would have a lot of sneaking around and lying to do, and would not be or feel free. And you might get away with it but you might wind up causing a great deal of pain to her, to yourself, and to your mistress. It's your choice, of course, and millions of married people have cheated through the millennia, so it wouldn't be an unusual choice, but I don't think you would ultimately feel very good about it.
When my ex-husband first told me he wanted a divorce, it came as a complete shock to me. I'd known there were issues we needed to deal with, of course, but I didn't see them as deal-breakers. I saw us both as two people willing to weather any storm together in order to come out the other side. So, I asked him to go to therapy with me and look at these issues -- because I didn't want to end the marriage without knowing we'd exhausted every possibility there was to make it work. I see what you're saying as something similar to that.
You want to be heard, you want to feel like your perspective matters to her just as much as her own does. So be it, if she finally concludes that poly isn't for her after looking at it from your perspective and learning something about it. You could accept that. At least, if you do walk away, you can walk away knowing she was given a choice and considered all possibilities before saying "no." But for her to categorically put up a wall about hearing anything... ugh. As long as she continues shutting you down, or freaking out because you want to move one more inch toward where you want to be, you feel like this whole world of possibility is being ignored by her, and like you and what you want is dismissed with prejudice (the meaning of prejudice is to "pre-judge" without having all the facts). I can't blame you. One of the basics I feel are necessary in healthy relationships is that each person feels heard.
As for "resorting to unethical means to meet your needs" (which I actually see more as wants or desires than needs, but to me they are still important) if all else fails, again, I understand that sentiment. I don't know if I would recommend cheating, but I do understand the emotions behind your saying that. You are hella frustrated! However, I don't agree that cheating would be the more successful option than leaving her would be, if the goal is freedom to live your life as you see fit. To cheat, you would have a lot of sneaking around and lying to do, and would not be or feel free. And you might get away with it but you might wind up causing a great deal of pain to her, to yourself, and to your mistress. It's your choice, of course, and millions of married people have cheated through the millennia, so it wouldn't be an unusual choice, but I don't think you would ultimately feel very good about it.
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Xftmfz
New member
I guess it would depend the nature of the model she proposed. I imagine all of a sudden being disposed-of wouldn't be very pleasant, but I'd be okay eventually. I don't see this scenario as very probable.
I think what you were going for was some sort of reverse analogy here. Remember I don't restrict ANY of her behaviors currently. I believe there's a huge difference between desiring acceptance from your partner (me) and wanting adherence to a rule-set (her).
If we unravel these thoughts, and at the end prefers what she prefers, I will deal with that then.
I'm having a really hard time understanding how some folks see what I'm trying to do as "making her into something she's not" when I'm okay with her sleeping with just me, or with others she chooses. I'm okay with NOT requiring her to be anyone other than who she is. I don't see her requiring me to be a certain way an extension of who she is. What I do reflects who I am.
I'm tempted to say I believe if you change yourself for sake of a relationship, that's typically bad. But then I supposed you'd say, that's what I'm asking of her. Then I'd say, it all depends on what change you're asking for. I'm not asking her to DO anything. Asking to let go of something which I believe would benefit us BOTH. Other than maintaining the current "work-around" way of maintaining our relationship, I don't benefit AT ALL from catering to her fears, which are not solely effecting the "Lifestyle" parts of our relationship. These fears cause issues in MANY other areas of our relationship. I guess it's just in this topic of our relationship is where it seems to stand out the most.
There's a bit of confusion on my part in how this dynamic works. For example: it didn't feel like I was being controlled when we were both monogamous years ago. The way I came about my current beliefs on love and sex did feel very much like being freed from something I didn't know I was restricted by. A "belief" is the most powerful thought IMO. It's the only type of thought we think by default we shouldn't question. You believe things that you "should" believe, etc. But now that I've changed, it feels like she's controlling me by refusing to accept. I know that's not what it feels like to her. She's not really a control freak. I think she's holding on to some imagined security.
This question seems to imply judgement. I believe in owning one's own emotions. I don't see it like I, myself, nor my wants and desires as the cause(s) of her pain. I see the irrational beliefs that tell her my emotional connection with another person automatically deducts from our marital & emotional connection - as the cause of her pain. I see me as pushing to help her extinguish a belief that doesn't serve her well-being. Me getting what I want is a side effect of that, yes. Her being free of that pain I would think would be a much greater reward than what I would experience due to it.
Yeah, but what would be the fun in that? lol. Answering you here would be totally relative to opinion on what's better. I think my opinion has been readily apparent in this thread. And I'll add: Keep in mind this isn't the story of a guy who came out as poly to his mono-vanilla spouse. And my wife doesn't wish to be "monogamous". She still wants us to swing, and actively maintains working friendships with our non-monogamous friends. She just wants to maintain a "you're allowed to have sex with others only in my presence and with my explicit approval" agreement I wish to extinguish.
Well, yes. Yeah. I honestly don't see what the difference between 1. Leaving her. Breaking her heart. And then her knowing what I do with my life. and 2. Doing what I want with my life, hiding from her for whatever time, and then she finds out, leaves me, heart broken, and knowing what I do with my life other than 1 thing: the time I have left with her. Which is also time I have with my family, which I cherish. I don't expect people to get this outlook. I don't always get it myself. This is the last resort though. Not there yet. This isn't something I want to do at all. I just see it as having a better chance at keeping her than simply leaving, which has a 100% guarantee I lose her.
Xftmfz
New member
Yes! Spot on with many of the "why I continue to go forward with this" reasons.
Yeah. I haven't worked the whole "cheating" vs. "unethical" thing out in my head completely. In the situation it came to that, it would be easy to say "This is what I'm about to do whether you like it or not." But, that's not the hard part. Thing is, unless I lie to the partners I might have, they typically don't see the whole "owning your own emotions" thing in reverse like I do, and tend to see what they'd do as "causing" hurt to her. So, yeah, this is an unlikely solution if it can even be considered a solution. I still do not see any benefit to leaving her other than the subtle high-fives from those who would judge me for cheating.
Look, I didn't come here to argue. Sorry if you took it that way. My point was simply to say, that it takes BOTH partners to be 100% on board with something like this. You said yourself, that you feel empty & unfulfilled by a relationship model that your wife needs. It's clear that the two of you are not on the same page.
Holding out hope that someone will change on a matter with such a monumental impact is never a good idea. Is it possible that she will? Sure. Is it likely - given the discussions you two have had before? Doubtful. But you obviously know your wife better than I. I just happen to have more insight on what makes the mind of a monogamist tick. And I can assure you, that throwing words like "possessive" & "selfish" will only cause damage. You need to ask yourself if you can be happy with the model she tells you she needs.
Good luck.