I feel like I'm leading a double life

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Just another thank you for all the different viewpoints I'm getting here! No matter how this plays out, it is nice to feel less crazy for wanting them to at least meet face to face. And at the same time, to hear all the valid reasons someone might not want that.

I'm kind of wondering that too. The whole "bringing a gun" thing, even if it is just a joke, seems a little off to me.

What Dag has said to me is that if his wife were to have a boyfriend, he'd be thrilled for her, and not want to know a thing about it. DADT. He'd rather be in the dark than have it rubbed in his face (his words not mine). To me, yeah, that's being less than fully comfortable with things, but I don't get a say in their relationship. They're happy.

I just wish he could get his head around the fact that it's very different for me and my husband. It's not just no secrets, it's being very open about who we are out with (and sending each other the occasional "hope you get laid" text )

Dag would feel disrespected by having to meet a guy his wife was dating. Andy feels disrespected by not being acknowledged by my boyfriend as a real person who's worth getting to know

 

[vinsanity0]

Just another thank you for all the different viewpoints I'm getting here! No matter how this plays out, it is nice to feel less crazy for wanting them to at least meet face to face. And at the same time, to hear all the valid reasons someone might not want that.



What Dag has said to me is that if his wife were to have a boyfriend, he'd be thrilled for her, and not want to know a thing about it. DADT. He'd rather be in the dark than have it rubbed in his face (his words not mine). To me, yeah, that's being less than fully comfortable with things, but I don't get a say in their relationship. They're happy.

I just wish he could get his head around the fact that it's very different for me and my husband. It's not just no secrets, it's being very open about who we are out with (and sending each other the occasional "hope you get laid" text )

Dag would feel disrespected by having to meet a guy his wife was dating. Andy feels disrespected by not being acknowledged by my boyfriend as a real person who's worth getting to know

Ah...now it makes sense. Cat is the same way and it drives me nuts because I am more open, like you and your husband.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Ah...now it makes sense. Cat is the same way and it drives me nuts because I am more open, like you and your husband.

Yes, it's really frustrating sometimes. No right or wrong here just two different ways of doing the multiple relationship thing. It blows Dag's mind that Andy and I are "out" to our close friends. For me... It would be really uncomfortable to hide part of our life from everyone.

I'm trying to keep in mind the idea that sometimes poly needs to move at the pace of the person who is struggling the most, even if that person is not the one you'd expect to struggle!

 

[kdt26417]

Hi GirlFromTexlahoma,

In most situations, I think it's advantageous for metamours to meet each other and like each other and hang out and stuff. However, there are exceptions to that rule, and I'm thinking Dag may be one of those exceptions. It's fine to state your case to him (in a long email if necessary), and explain in detail why this is important to you. But, if you do all that, and he still can't bring himself to meet Andy, I would lay the matter to rest. I am inclined to advise you to consider whether you're willing to keep seeing a guy who won't grow any closer to you, especially in a meet-the-husband way. We're all mortal; we all have limits on how far we can ever go in our relationships. Death, if nothing else, will intervene. So, is it acceptable if Dag's nerves intervene?

Just food for thought.
Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Kevin, that's pretty much where we are with things now. Talking about it has been good, at least now everyone knows how the others feel (as well as they can with me obviously being the go-between for Andy and Dag )

Dag admits he just feels irrational, overwhelming anxiety about meeting a metamour. He would like to work on that - if only for personal growth - but doesn't want pressure or deadlines. Totally ok.

Andy is mildly disappointed that this won't look like other V relationships we've had, with fun dinners and long weekends together. But he understands Dag's point of view better now and sees it as less of a big deal.

I am inclined to advise you to consider whether you're willing to keep seeing a guy who won't grow any closer to you, especially in a meet-the-husband way.

That's the big question. I wish I could unravel WHY this feels like such a big deal to me. Especially when both my partners are comfortable with the status quo or very gradual change. At least now I'm at a point where I can start puzzling through my reasons, instead of just wishing everybody else would change their behavior to make things easier on me

 

[Tinwen]

As for "working on it", could it be perhaps more comfortable to send a brief hello via email, perhaps exchange some written communication first?

 

[KC43]

I was thinking about this while re-reading some of the posts in this thread.

Kevin... you say it's "advantageous" for metamours to get along and hang out and such. I would be interested to know what you consider the "advantages" of that kind of thing to be, because I don't see any at all. I see advantages in having metamours *meet*, but none in them socializing, at least not if it's solely because they're involved with the same person. I'm also not sure why you say a relationship isn't progressing if the metamours don't meet. My relationship with Woody isn't dependent upon Hubby; my marriage isn't dependent on Woody. So if they refused to meet, or if I refused to meet Woody's other partners, I don't quite see how that would interfere with the progression of the relationship.

Personally, just thinking about having Hubby hanging out with Woody makes me cringe. I don't *want* my partners to be friends with each other, and I sure as hell don't want to spend time with more than one of them in the same setting. If it happens, it happens; I wouldn't prevent it if Hubby and Woody became friends and wanted to sit down and watch the football game together or whatever. But I would be very uncomfortable with it, and would prefer that it never actually happen that way.

I do want my partners to meet and know who each other is, because that seems like the right thing to do, but I don't understand the reasoning behind "Hey, let's all three (or four, or whatever) go out to dinner and dancing together" or "Let's all sit on the couch and watch TV" or whatever. Likewise, when Woody took me out for an evening with Highlight and Lips... if I'd known at the time that Highlight was my metamour, I probably wouldn't have gone. I don't mind *meeting* a metamour; it's uncomfortable for me, but I guess it's important for me to meet my metamours just like I consider it important for Hubby to meet my other partners. But I don't want to socialize with someone who I know is getting naked with the same guy I'm getting naked with. I prefer to choose my friends based on having personalities that click with each other, not based on who we're dating.

It's surprising me that I'm feeling so adamant about this today, but I think it's probably because as I said, I'm not accustomed to having a metamour, and Woody and I were talking a little about Highlight and the potential of her and me socializing with him and others in the same space again in the future. Something I intend to avoid as much as possible.

So I can understand Dag's way of thinking even more now, because now that I've had some time to think about it, I would probably feel the same way he does. I would prefer *not* to meet a metamour, and if I have to meet them, I would definitely rather not spend any more time with them than absolutely necessary.

 

[YouAreHere]

KC, for Chops, it's more "this is my chosen family, and I wish I could spend time with all of them together." I have to liken it to me spending time with my kids - occasionally spending one-on-one time with them, but having the majority of the time be spent together in the house. He would LOVE a shared household; I'm the one who would be driven insane by it.

I think the advantage depends more upon what kind of person you are, or what kind of Poly you prefer. If you want to have everyone entwined, then yes, having all metamours be buddies is certainly advantageous.

It can also help for things like big family birthdays, etc., where you want to invite all your partners and not have to worry about them actually having a good time. We had a baby shower this past weekend for Chops' son's GF (pregnant with the first Grandbaby Choplet!), and I think events like this are better when people get along.

That does, of course, assume some level of entwinement with family. If your relationships don't involve that, then the advantage is strictly personal and individual. And it's quite clear that everyone's mileage here varies.

 

[Leetah]

Yes. The advantage is mainly there if One, you tend to spend a fair amount of time with your family or social circle; Two, you date the same kind of person you like for friends so you feel they would all get along; and Three, that you are in the kind of relationship where you want the person integrated into your life rather than just a date you meet with on a regular basis. If you are a loner, or a person who likes to keep all their relationships compartmentalized (I have a friend whose spouse does not want to share a gaming group for instance), then metamour palling around probably serves no helpful purpose in regards to yourself. From High School on I always brought my boyfriends to hang out with my siblings and parents and already existing friendships because I wanted to be with my romantic interests as many hours a day as I could. Having everyone laughing and playing together has always been one of the best things in life for me. Trying to keep my SO apart from everyone, especially my best friend/husband, never occurred to me.
Leetah

 

[KC43]

Thanks, YAH and Leetah. I appreciate your explanations. I still can't *understand* why anyone would want to combine things that much, but I can accept that for some people it makes sense and is important. I guess that's true with Woody to some extent, given that not only am I spending time at his house, around his son and housemates, but we've also socialized once with one of his other partners and her husband. Something I hope to avoid repeating if I can, because the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with the idea; I didn't know who they were at the time.

I don't socialize much in general; at this point, the only people I would consider friends who live close enough to see are the three guys listed in my signature, and Woody's housemates. I don't do any activities (gaming or whatever). I don't belong to any social groups. And my only family other than my kids and Hubby are my parents, who I see as seldom as possible. I don't consider Hubby's family to be my family because some of them have made it clear they don't consider *me* part of the family, and his family members don't know I'm poly anyway, so bringing other partners around would be out of the question, and Hubby and I NEVER host anything for any reason because Hubby doesn't like having other people in his house. (Even if we did throw a party for some reason, Hubby would forbid me to invite any other partner so we wouldn't risk his family figuring out what's going on.)

I guess maybe how open you are as poly might be a factor too? If you're completely open, bringing more than one partner to a family get-together or a night out with friends or whatever might make more sense than if you have to keep one or more of those relationships hidden.

Hubby despises socializing in general, so even though I'm doing more socializing than I'm used to thanks to Woody, and Woody has made it clear that Hubby's welcome at some events, Hubby is unlikely to go to any of them even if I asked him to. And I wouldn't be likely to ask to begin with. The couple of times Hubby and S2 were together at events for Alt or Country were not at all pleasant for me, because of Hubby's assholistic tendencies when he feels like he has to assert his place in my life, so I would rather just keep him away from my other partners. Then I'm not left feeling miserable, uncomfortable, and as if I have to make excuses for a grown man who should bloody well know better.

Aside from that... compartmentalization. Totally. One of the reasons I like having other partners is that I have something and someone in my life that has nothing to do with my home or family, because home and family are often very stressful for me. So bringing Hubby (or even Alt and Country) around one of my other partners would kind of defeat the purpose.

 

[River]

If I were in your shoes, GirlFromTexlahoma, I'd also want my longtime partner and boyfriend or girlfriend to meet. But that would more likely happen in the first few weeks or couple of months, in my case. It's difficult for me to imagine under what circumstances a year would pass without them meeting.

I wonder why your boyfriend's feeling of awkwardness is so great. Perhaps he got caught up in some sort of spiral where the awkwardness is compounded by the duration of time which has elapsed? (with such time amplifying the anxiety?)

I think there must be some "issues" here which your bf hasn't worked through about his polyamory. That is, he may not be entirely self-accepting about it. After all, it would be no big deal to introduce your husband and a close friend, would it? So why should the romantic or boinking factor prove so problematic for him?

Is he a good communicator about feelings -- his feelings? Us men often are not. It's often not part of our socialization as guys. Sadly.

I can totally empathize with your husband on this. It starts getting weird when a whole dang year passes.

All that said, I wouldn't pressure him or try to force him into meeting your husband. I'd see what I could do to help ease his anxieties, and that would mean ... well, understanding them and empathizing with 'em.

 

[River]

... in my situation, Hubby is the introvert and doesn't really socialize with anyone, ...

I suspect from what you say here that his issue is not introversion so much as social anxiety.

I'm an ambivert who spent most of his life living like an introvert, so introversion is well understood by me. I also used to suffer from social anxiety -- and wow is it nice to be able to honestly write here "used to". (Now I just have normal social anxiety levels -- rather than the rather severe levels I once had. So now I'm free to enjoy relating with others, even in groups.)

People often conceal their social anxiety ... often by calling it "introversion" or other softening terms. They conceal it more often than not because of shame -- which is the driving force behind social anxiety anyway.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Leetah, you stole the words right out of my brain I feel the exact same way about my SOs meeting. Watching my husband and ex boyfriend talking car stuff ... That gave me the same warm happy feelings I get watching my dad pal around with my friends. I like it when my awesome people can meet my other awesome people.

KC43, there is one added dimension to it in my situation... Both Dag and I live with our respective spouses, so we don't have a space that is ours. Unless we can arrange work schedules to get some free time during the day while Andy is at work, we are limited to meeting at restaurants, bars, hotels, movies. It gets old, tbh. Date nights are great (hey, Andy and I have been living together for 13 years and still like to overnight at hotels for fun) but sometimes I want downtime with Dag. I would like Dag to be my friend, in addition to being my lover. To just hang out in ratty pjs and eat leftover Chinese food in front of the tv And for now that's not an option for us, because being in the same space with Andy would make Dag uncomfortable.

Having to squeeze in time together around avoiding Andy... finding hotels and driving and paying for overpriced beer at bars just so we can have a place to sit and talk... It's all just getting tiring for me.

As for "working on it", could it be perhaps more comfortable to send a brief hello via email, perhaps exchange some written communication first?

I think this might be helpful for Dag... He is comfortable making friends and being social online, has a whole little black book of sexting friends he's never met. It's not something I'd thought f because for me, texting someone I'd never met would be the ultimate in awkward We all just have our own comfort zones!

 

[YouAreHere]

I guess maybe how open you are as poly might be a factor too? If you're completely open, bringing more than one partner to a family get-together or a night out with friends or whatever might make more sense than if you have to keep one or more of those relationships hidden.

I would agree. Comfort level would also be a key factor here.
Chops is out and vocal about who he is, and has zero qualms about making sure his loved ones are on the invitation list for events that pertain to him. He got bent about his work holiday party limiting him to one "plus one," so he boycotts the whole thing.

However, I see the opposite side as well - when our relationship was pretty new (and even now in certain social settings), I'm much less comfortable with having everyone together. I wouldn't have Xena over for, say, Thanksgiving dinner with Chops and my Grandmother and Aunt. The whole "did he just kiss that woman" conversation aside, my perception is that Chops is *my* partner, and I'm including *him* in my family's get-together.

For me, to extend that invitation to a meta, I would have to be very close friends with that metamour, and not just friendly because of circumstances.

But that's me.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Is he a good communicator about feelings -- his feelings? Us men often are not. It's often not part of our socialization as guys. Sadly.

River, I had to think on this for a minute. A good communicator about feelings? Yes. But he doesn't do the thing Andy and I do, where we (over) analyze our feelings and dig deep looking for the roots and reasons of those feelings. If he likes something, he just likes it. If something makes him feel nervous, it just makes him nervous. Sometimes talking to him about his feelings makes me sound like a broken record going "why? why? why?"

Your comment about the "boinking factor" made me laugh That's a thought I have a lot, why does sex change the equation? For me it really doesn't. But I was raised by flower children and spent my formative years at big liberal universities . Dag comes from a conservative, religious family. There's a lot of baggage there, I think, even if he does avoid thinking about it.

 

[KC43]

I suspect from what you say here that his issue is not introversion so much as social anxiety.

I'm an ambivert who spent most of his life living like an introvert, so introversion is well understood by me. I also used to suffer from social anxiety -- and wow is it nice to be able to honestly write here "used to". (Now I just have normal social anxiety levels -- rather than the rather severe levels I once had. So now I'm free to enjoy relating with others, even in groups.)

People often conceal their social anxiety ... often by calling it "introversion" or other softening terms. They conceal it more often than not because of shame -- which is the driving force behind social anxiety anyway.

Nope, but thanks for the attempted psychoanalysis of the man I've known for over 7 years and am quite familiar with. Hubby is (most likely) on the autism spectrum, and prefers solitude. He doesn't claim to be introverted; that was my term. He's asocial and proud of it. *I* have social anxiety; I know how it works. Hubby doesn't get anxious about being out in public; he just hates doing it because he would rather not interact with anyone at all, often including me and the kids. He likes to *have* a family rather than be part of one.

At home, he spends most of his time in the cellar on his computer, and maybe occasionally comes upstairs to say hello. At work, where his only coworkers are his father, uncle, and a family friend, he puts on his headphones and doesn't speak to anyone unless he has to in order to do a work task. And at family gatherings, he puts a smile on his face, greets relatives, and leaves as soon as possible.

In the past, before we've gone to social events, *I* have had anxiety attacks, sometimes verging on panic attacks. Hubby just says, "It'll be okay, but how long do I have to deal with those people?"

 

[KC43]

KC43, there is one added dimension to it in my situation... Both Dag and I live with our respective spouses, so we don't have a space that is ours. Unless we can arrange work schedules to get some free time during the day while Andy is at work, we are limited to meeting at restaurants, bars, hotels, movies. It gets old, tbh. Date nights are great (hey, Andy and I have been living together for 13 years and still like to overnight at hotels for fun) but sometimes I want downtime with Dag. I would like Dag to be my friend, in addition to being my lover. To just hang out in ratty pjs and eat leftover Chinese food in front of the tv And for now that's not an option for us, because being in the same space with Andy would make Dag uncomfortable.

Having to squeeze in time together around avoiding Andy... finding hotels and driving and paying for overpriced beer at bars just so we can have a place to sit and talk... It's all just getting tiring for me.

Ah, that makes more sense. I don't get involved with men who cohabitate with other partners, so they're always able to have me go to their place. Hubby and I agreed long ago that no other partners are allowed at our home; that's been relaxed to no *sex* with other partners, but I prefer not to even bring a partner to the place I share with Hubby and my kids, again because of boundary blurring.

 

[kdt26417]

@ KC43 ... I fancy that in many (not all) cases, a friendship between metamours will reduce the likelihood of jealousy between the metamours.

Re (from KC43):

"I'm also not sure why you say a relationship isn't progressing if the metamours don't meet."

When/where did I say that?

 

[KC43]

Hi GirlFromTexlahoma,

(snip) I am inclined to advise you to consider whether you're willing to keep seeing a guy who won't grow any closer to you, especially in a meet-the-husband way.(snip)

Maybe I misinterpreted the above sentence, but you say Dag won't grow any closer to her because he won't meet Andy. To me, that's saying the relationship won't progress, because as relationships progress, the participants generally get closer.

I understand what you're saying about jealousy, but I would say that in some cases it might be the opposite; I know personally, I wasn't jealous about the knowledge that Woody had other partners, but when I *met* one of those other partners, I had to spend a few days working through jealousy and insecurity. Speaking only for myself, having a name and face to put with the metamour *increases* my jealousy, because then I have a visual and my brain sometimes takes that and runs in some pretty dark directions as far as comparing.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from kdt26417):

I am inclined to advise you to consider whether you're willing to keep seeing a guy who won't grow any closer to you, especially in a meet-the-husband way.

Ah, I see what you mean.

I guess I meant that more in a "what if" type of way. "What if" he won't grow any closer; "what if" he won't meet the husband. Trying to describe the situation the way GirlFromTexlahoma sees it, and going from there.