Fun and Frolic With Long-Term Love

I think WarMan has a few main issues with relationships that get in his way.

One is how his devotion and loyalty to Monkey really keep him from seeing her sometimes passive aggressive manipulations. Plus he feels obligated to be there for her even if she needs something else than a friend to lean on.

The other thing, having to do with his relationship with you, is that he constantly compares himself and what he has with you, to DarkKnight and PunkRockAwesomesauce and how he perceives your relationships with them. And whenever we compare ourselves with others, we always come up short. So he is constantly telling himself he's never gonna have what they have, or mean as much to you as they do, etc. He also tends to over-analyze, so on top of his rather bad luck with women in the past, he works out in his head how he can't have a relationship that flows easily and is satisfying. He takes a defeatist view and sets himself up to fail, instead of trusting that it can work if he would only just relax and enjoy each moment.
 
I agree that WarMan sometimes takes a defeatist view of things. He has told me numerous times, including during our fight yesterday, that maybe he just isn't meant to be successful at relationships. It's hard to know what to say to that when I want us to work out.

He has agreed to meet me at Panera Bread tonight in my town to talk. This morning he messaged me first and told me he loved me but started out sniping at me pretty hard. It was difficult to not cry, so I was glad the computer gave me some space to be able to deal with that without him seeing how deeply he was wounding me. I am such an ugly crier. Hopefully being at a neutral sort of public location will give me strength to not break down and beg him to love me the way that I need.

We have both a date and a sleepover scheduled on the calendar tonight, but I am thinking I will skip the sleepover, even if things go really well. I have to teach tomorrow morning and when I set the schedule, I hadn't really paid attention to that. Plus, now I REALLY need sleep. I hadn't gotten any the previous night because the kittens were rambunctious and I was on high alert to see if Ray was going to pee on PunkRock again. (He didn't.) And then last night was a disaster. I am dead on my feet. That doesn't stop me from wanting to snuggle up with him and have sex with him - even now I am craving him deeply. I need connection. I need that touch or this is going to be traumatic to me when we talk.

I can't trust him right now though. He is saying that this is all my fault, because I wouldn't give him time to calm down, and then I was overreacting to him wanting a night off, so he could sleep. Those two things may or may not be true, (and I am sure we will discuss that tonight), but to me, this was not what our fight was about at all. That is what he is choosing to focus on, but to me it seems centered on how he is trying to fit our relationship into a shape that has been and still is causing me distress - keeping his time with Monkey separate, but then oversharing and bringing his issues with her to me, to the detriment of our time together.

And yes, Cindie, there is still difficulty with also how he compares himself to my husbands. I told him that, the last fight before this one, that it was really stressful to me that he seems to try to put himself up against PunkRock. I think this is because when we were newly dating, PunkRock was having so many issues. Now PunkRock seems to be doing much better, and he does so much for me to support my relationship with WarMan, that WarMan doesn't even see, so it is sad to have WarMan view him as competition. Because there is no competition - they are different people and meet different needs. But WarMan brings up PunkRock way more than DarkKnight when scheduling, or when he is frustrated about something. Both of my husbands were extremely supportive and tried to fix the holes that WarMan had made last night in my heart, but of course they were unsuccessful at that. Only WarMan can do that, but they both did the best they could to talk positively without tearing down WarMan at all, though I think they both wanted to shake him - and me - vigorously.
 
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Bluebird said:
Now PunkRock seems to be doing much better, and he does so much for me to support my relationship with WarMan, that WarMan doesn't even see.
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What does he do to support the relationship? I ask for my own interest, because XBF said this to me of his wife, but would never give me specific examples, while what I saw was a woman who loved to have 'Oops, schedule changed! Sorry, too bad' with absolute predictable consistency every time we planned on being alone together in his home.

I would still like to know what he might have been referring to, and he apparently isn't going to tell me, so I'm still looking for answers from other poly people.
 
He does several things!

He is always flexible with changing our schedule, when needed. He suggests date ideas once in a while and offers to switch nights if it would benefit those plans.
He does things around the house when I am off on dates with DarkKnight or WarMan, that might otherwise cut into date time - not household chores that are shared, but things like washing my clothes or vacuuming my bedroom.
He includes WarMan when we are talking about future plans.
He brings up and initiates conversations about WarMan, that are positive. He does not bad mouth him to me, ever. And when I am fighting with WarMan, he always asks if there is something he can do to alleviate stress, and will wrap himself around me to give me the holding that I need to still my heart rate.
He thinks of ideas without prompting, to promote and strengthen his own relationship with WarMan - not limited to buying kickass birthday gifts (he indebted himself a great deal to a friend to secure WarMachine models to give to WarMan, while I had to nag DarkKnight a bit to remember a birthday was coming at all) and discussing making room for WarMan in his own personal space in the house - something I hadn't thought of doing and would never have asked him to do either.
He also compliments me in a way that doesn't stress me out before I head out to WarMan's house - and makes suggestions like I should wear a particular thing.
He also tries to make plans that will include WarMan's friends - like holding a painting class for all of them.
 
Alien Encounter

When she twisted around to see the scar
From the corner of her eye with a mirror,
It no longer sat still on her spine,
Like a thread tying the spot where she had been torn.
It was not to be seen, but there was no joy in recovery or even a momentary elation.
It was all of her, see.

Her soul had swallowed it.

And the string holding her together had unwound
And her guts had spilled out onto the floor and splashed between the cracks.
Where her kidneys had gone, she couldn't say, but maybe if she could find the time she would look for them later.

Everyone declared her healed.
Without the scar, they couldn't see that she was broken.
 
Bluebird said:
I can't trust him right now though. He is saying that this is all my fault, because I wouldn't give him time to calm down, and then I was overreacting to him wanting a night off, so he could sleep. Those two things may or may not be true, (and I am sure we will discuss that tonight), but to me, this was not what our fight was about at all. That is what he is choosing to focus on, but to me it seems centered on how he is trying to fit our relationship into a shape that has been and still is causing me distress - keeping his time with Monkey separate, but then oversharing and bringing his issues with her to me, to the detriment of our time together.
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I hope things go well tonight - but... I gotta say, Bluebird, and I say all this with compassion and affection... I read WarMan's account of how things went down between you two, and how your big argument kept escalating, and - it's like the two of you were interacting in alternate universes. Or at the least, two different rooms. So, it would seem there is a big area where you two don't seem to connect with or listen to each other very well.

To be quite honest, WM's description of what happened sounded rather sensible and rational while yours was, well, full of upset and expectations and some hysteria. And a little bit of whining, too, which I hope you don't mind my pointing out. Upthread, I posted that I saw WM as a defeatist; however, you frequently also take a rather fatalistic view of things. Methinks you and WM clash a lot because you are both so alike!

It's seemed lately like somehow things kind of went off the rails. So, I honestly wonder if you have also been creating your own version of a self-fulfilling prophecy that it won't work out with WM. You lately have been bringing up your past with M even though that is not relevant to the current situation, and you also quite frequently compare how you and WM interact and communicate to how you interact and communicate with DK and PRA. And, please don't take this the wrong way, but this isn't the first time I saw a glimpse of you being rather, er... sulky or petulant and demanding with WM, hon, at least in how you describe what you expect and how disappointed you are when you don't get it.

We can't always have all our favorite love languages met all the time, on demand, whenever we want them. But you know that. It's just that... it's important not to give in to thoughts that everything is turning to shit because of that. You can't always get what you want, but that doesn't automatically mean something bad about you or your partner!

I think that perhaps, if the two of you really want things to work and fulfill both of you, you both need to just drop all expectations and take everything very slowly so you can savor every moment together instead of all the planning and negotiating and positioning that you do. WarMan is not PunkRockAwesomesauce and he is not DarkKnight. This is a unique relationship and I think you've both come at it like it's gotta go from zero to 160 from the moment the key turned on the ignition. But when you encountered speedbumps, you let them really hurt you, instead of slowing down and being gentle so you both could manage them together.

I hope it goes well tonight and you can get past all the drama enough to move forward at a pace that works for you both. I am thinking of you both and sending good vibes. I know a lot of us here are rooting for you both.
 
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Would a counselor help in this situation? serving as a mediator if you will?
 
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time Bluebird. You have an unbelievable amount on your schedule with a majority sounding like you are the pivotal person others depend on. You handle it all competently and generally with aplomb, which is more than I think I could do.

Your issues are not letting you have the Warman/Bluebird relationship be its own thing in its own way. I know how hard that can be when one is under stress, which you for sure are, and when one is triggered, as you for sure were. If you can, a counselor of some kind might indeed be a good idea. I am afraid I have forgotten, but I believe you are not currently in counseling? It sounds to me as though you have been really triggered in a negative way by things having little to do with WarMan and a lot to do with your past. You don't like him to compare himself to DK or Punkrock but you do it "none of my guys has ever done that to me" and all the talk about how you were treated by M. A counselor might be able to help cut through the tangle made from each of your pasts which is keeping you two from getting settled.

That is one of the trickiest things I am wrestling with, how to start a new relationship from scratch when I am accustomed to a relationship working a certain way. My guys are similar in some ways but very different in others and I can easily forget that Ray and I have not figured some things out. Then I get blindsided when he gets upset.

Leetah
 
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When I was messaging WarMan yesterday, after I read his blog post, I told him it was REALLY clear we were having two very different arguments. I had zero upset that he wanted to shorten our date night to see Monkey. Zero. He didn't post the beginning of our texting - where I said straight out that I didn't really want to shorten it because I already was leaving early the next day, but that he could if he wanted to. And when he told me he was shortening it because of Monkey, I told him ok. I actually had figured that out already. What upset me was the idea that he thought I needed some sort of reason to be nice to her. We have had this same issue multiple times - her issues are all up in our time together and entire evenings have been spent talking about her problems. Whereas, WarMan never would spend time with her on her date nights talking about me, and I must not ever be in the same physical space as her. This was not the relationship I signed up for.

We talked this out last night. He promises again to be more aware of letting her issues intrude on our time.

We also worked out that if we are arguing over text, that we will make an effort to see each other in person to clear communication. He texted me something last night that had me majorly upset but when he told me in person it was completely different.

I can't type anything more right now because I have to rush home to teach a class but I will update more later.
 
Communicating by written word is such a different skill and to do it well as a couple it can take much longer than communicating clearly in person. In written form the reader has to take at least as much responsibility as the writer as tone is largely imagined from written words.
 
Glad to hear you talked and are working things out. Hopefully the two of you won't get into catastrophizing the situation again if/when any other misunderstandings come up.

Hey, just wondering about the poetry/verse in posts # 1238 and 1245; did you write them? FYI, they're very good! Meant to tell you that when I read them.
 
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Yeah, the other night he told me I wasn't in control here, and I took it to mean he was in charge of the relationship, not me. So I took offense. What he meant was that I was upset and needed to calm down. The other day I texted him "You have continually asked me for more time over the course of our relationship, and I have given it to you. If you think now that you asked for too much, tell me that. Maybe you feel that way and are afraid to tell me?" He read into it an accusatory tone that did not exist - I was really worried that he has been stressed out and didn't have enough time with Monkey, and was wondering if he needed to schedule more with her. If we had said either of these things in person to each other, there would not have been an issue at all, because we would have been able to read tone and facial expressions.

He is still thinking about scheduling with Monkey. I told him from the beginning that I would view her as a metamour, and assume that he would need equal time with her. He said no, that she would not ever be a primary, they weren't dating and that he wanted me as his primary, and to let him take care of his time with her. I agreed to that, but since the stress has increased on that end, and it is leaking through onto my time, something needs to be done, in my opinion. That said, WarMan shared that she told him that he misses her more than she misses him when they aren't together, and she drops their scheduled times to hang out or run errands with others a lot. At least, she has in the past. So it is distressing to him, because she has been militant in the past about him even being 10 minutes late, but then doesn't give him the same consideration. *shrugs* I know they have talked a lot about scheduling - as much as we have - and it is an ongoing point of stress for everyone. My schedule is out there for everyone, and I try to be as flexible as I can to make sure all of my primaries are getting what they need. If WarMan needs less time with me to focus on Monkey right now, I don't have a huge issue with it because it isn't like I couldn't use that time for other things. Provided, of course, that our remaining time is spread out so I get the touch time I need and that it is quality time not spent talking about Monkey.

I don't think that is unreasonable to request.

I am 100% being triggered by my past with M, and have talked about it with all 3 of my guys. They are aware that I own it, but will continue to struggle with it. I am quite shocked that I am struggling with it, but honestly, I think I just need to soldier through it. The other thing that I have been thinking of today as well is that these are my first holidays without my dad, and that somehow will affect things too. I was weepy this morning on the way home from WarMan's house, and when I realized I was thinking about my dad, that was crazy, because it was so out of the ballpark for me. I hadn't been thinking about him at all. So, there's that too.

One of the things that WarMan and I talked about last night was that I do have Anxious Attachment issues. I told him this before we started dating, and I know we have discussed it a few times, briefly. This is probably the first time he's had to deal with dating someone with this sort of problem. I have been in therapy for it in the past, but it isn't something that just gets cured. It's years and years of really hard work. I am not using this as an excuse in any way, but to say that I just have to suck it up and not get the physical touch I need in a relationship once in a while - that just doesn't work for me. Escalation WILL happen. I can try and do specific things, but it doesn't often work. It sucks for me, really bad. It's an actual disorder.

One of the things that should help is positive SELF-reinforcement. I use my SuperBetter account to do these exercises when I am having problems, and on a daily basis - when I remember. When I was dating M, he said it often annoyed him how I would tell myself how happy I was, when I had so much going on that wasn't good. He had trouble understanding that I had to reinforce my good feelings, or I would miss out on them. I write in my happiness journal, as well as do these other things, to help stop depression. I have never had a major depressive episode because of this. I don't take medication for depression or anxiety because I try to be vigilant about things.

Sometimes I fail at it and I melt down. I would rather have a freak out once or twice a year that I can manage with support and self-reinforcement than to be constantly medicated, and not feel like myself.

I am not going to ever write in this journal why I suffer from anxious attachment, and I certainly never told M why. I am not far along enough in my relationship with WarMan to discuss it either. Both of my husbands know, and are 100% supportive of the efforts I am taking to manage things. All anyone else needs to know is that I am aware of the issue, and to those that really matter, they love me and agree this works.
 
Yeah, that's my poetry. I get emo as fuck at 1 in the morning. lol
 
Anyway, WarMan and I met at Panera - he was a half hour late, but kept me informed of his schedule - and had a good talk. I had to chide him on being so clinical and detached on a few occasions. He had brought along a notebook to write down issues and he was actually writing things like "both parties agree to xxx." I was like, seriously? I am all for making a plan but wording like that feels as if I am not a person to him. He laughed about it and started writing silly things. I felt better when he relaxed. The discussion finished up at 9 when the restaurant closed, and when he gave me his big smile, I wanted to go home with him.

We cuddled all night until I fell asleep (no sex due to exhaustion on both of our parts and his back being hella messed up) and I felt much better.

This morning I was asking about the schedule and I changed some things. tonight I had down I was haivng an overnight with PunkRock and Thursday was DarkKnight, but since my older daughter will be here Friday and Saturday, I am sleeping with PunkRock those nights. So that means no overnight with WarMan again until Sunday. That is much too long for me - and him - given recent events, nor is it an even distribution of time. So, I switched tonight to DarkKnight, tomorrow to WarMan, and then PunkRock for Friday and Saturday. Everyone is okay with this.

In the middle of all of this mess, DarkKnight got messages from one of his aunts and apparently there was family miscommunication, and we are actually all invited to a family Thanksgiving tomorrow. of course, they are excluding both PunkRock and WarMan. We talked about just saying no for all of us, but there are cousins that my youngest would love to see. So now on Thanksgiving, DarkKnight will be taking my son and my daughter over there for an afternoon meal. So plans for me with my other two guys will remain the same. I am sure both of them would prolly be ok with me going as well, but there are a number of reasons why I won't. One being that his family is jerks to exclude my other guys, as if they don't matter. Two being, that this section of the family was really rude and dismissive of me in person at the reunion this summer, because of me being poly. Plus DarkKnight's grandfather recently told him that they all disapprove of me and what I am doing to him. So, I don't see why I should go just to be miserable. Plus, I would much rather eat chinese with WarMan and PunkRock and play Zombicide.

So that is the plan.
 
I'm glad you and WarMan are working things out! I'm sorry that DarkKnight's family excluded PunkRock & WarMan but your Thanksgiving sounds much more fun and relaxing anyway! I hope you all have a wonderful weekend :)
 
Anxiety of any type can definitely interfere with perceptions, and that in turn can mess mightily with relationships. Difficulty with attachments tends to be part of my problem, and is why in my blog I can whip from "everything's wonderful" to "I want him out of my life" to "I can't handle not having him" and back to "everything's wonderful"...sometimes in the course of a single post. It's not fun that you have it, but it's awesome that you're aware of it and how to manage it, and communicate with your partners about the impact it might have.

I also empathize with you about your past with M affecting how you're perceiving things in your current relationships; I'm having the same issue with my relationship with Woody in the wake of how things ended with S2.

Hang in there. From everything you say in this blog, and the things WarMan says about you in his, it's clear that you're very good at expressing yourself with all of your partners and managing a huge amount of stuff.
 
Tonight's full moon is known as the mourning moon - it's the last full moon before the winter solstice. I am going to use its energy to revisit the loss of certain things in my life, and then let it all go. Hopefully this focus will help. I feel good.

http://youtu.be/oqoiWxQsNSI
 
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I am feeling very out of sorts this morning. Just generalized anxiety, which is weird for me - usually I can pin it on a problem. So I am already unhappy and DarkKnight comes to tell me something.

DarkKnight told me about a recent conversation with his grandfather. I knew he had told DarkKnight that the family did not approve of me because of the poly situation, but apparently DarkKnight's mother told grandfather that I had a spending problem and that he should write DarkKnight out of his will. DarkKnight told his grandfather that the reason we cashed out our daughter's college fund was because she wasn't going to college, and we decided together that it could be applied toward her trip to Nepal. (It was only $1000.) I did not spend it on myself. Apparently, my mother in law implied that I had. Sigh. So anyway, grandfather is now questioning as to whether I would take DarkKnight's inheritance and spend it on my other guys instead or something.

It's very ridiculous, because I budget like a mofo when it comes to paying down debt. I certainly don't take chunks of money without discussing it with my guys and I sure as hell don't blow my daughter's college fund, as meager as it was. Irritating.

This is sad to me. DarkKnight told his grandfather that he never expected an inheritance to begin with, and however he chose to write his will, that was up to him. See, DarkKnight's birth mom died when he was young, so whenever there are financial things to be discussed, as her only child, DarkKnight fills his birthmother's spot in the family. DarkKnight's mom is his stepmom, and not related to this grandfather at all. I guess the tree would be like her late husband's ex father in law...DarkKnight's birth father was married to his mom and to his birth mom, and this is his birth mom's family.

Fuck it. We never ever expected any sort of inheritance. The insurance apparently is going to be a lot, but I never really understood the fighting over stuff like that. Especially since his grandmother is still alive - she will get everything anyway, as she should. I certainly don't feel entitled to anything and neither does DarkKnight. It is just terribly upsetting that DarkKnight's mom thought it would be a great idea to go talk garbage.

DarkKnight is taking my son and our daughter to his birthfamily's Thanksgiving dinner in a short bit. I decided not to go because the last gathering made me feel uncomfortable. I don't want to drive a wedge in between his family members any further. DarkKnight said he would back me up and I believe him. He has always been so supportive. This just sucks though. Especially since his mom is going to be at our house for our Thanksgiving on Saturday. I want to shake her because this sort of trash talk benefits no one. Grandfather now is worried about DarkKnight, DarkKnight is worried about grandfather and drama spews out. Ugh.
 
So yesterday was up and down for me. I was bummed all morning about the family stuff with DarkKnight, and PunkRock slept the entire time. I was feeling so out of sorts that I never disturbed him so I had several hours alone while I waited for WarMan to come over at 1 pm.

He was so supportive when he arrived - he brought over some yummy alcohol and those Lindt truffles I love so much. He got me focused on other things, and after PunkRock moseyed upstairs, we had a blast playing the Switch City campaign in Zombicide. (SEASON 1) We actually had to stop after the second board because it was 10 pm. :) We did have a break in there someplace to eat take out Chinese and I felt like maybe a new tradition had been born.

But, maybe not.

When we were finally getting ready to leave to go to WarMan's house tonight, he was seeming very out of sorts. I asked him what was wrong and he told me that Monkey had messaged him, saying that her husband was upset that he had skipped going to their friendsgiving. And the poly trio that typically hosts it was upset to see that PunkRock had posted a photo of us all playing Zombicide, that they didn't feel that hanging out with us was a good reason for WarMan to skip out on dinner at their place. So he was worried about whether he had made the right decision or not. He had asked previously and thought that there was a ton of people going this year that he didn't know, and he wasn't interested in going to meet new people, plus he has a health issue that leaves him unable to eat the meal itself. So he chose to come to my house instead.

I was miffed a bit at Monkey for making him feel guilty about this. Why pass along this information? If people were upset, let them do their own contacting WarMan and let him work it out with them. WarMan said he wasn't going to say anything to the offended parties because maybe they wouldn't want him to know.

I also started feeling out of sorts over this because I wasn't invited to their friendsgiving, which was I think a part of the reason WarMan didn't attend. It really seems sort of weird to me - in my social circle, no one would dream of leaving off someone's partner on the guest list on a holiday, and get upset when there is non-attendance by the invited partner. I told him this had me feeling really shitty, though I hadn't thought about it before. That said, I certainly have zero desire to spend a holiday with a bunch of people who don't want me there - hello, I skipped DarkKnight's extended family meal yesterday too. Still, it didn't leave me feeling very good about myself, if every holiday I am left feeling like I am forcing a choice between WarMan and this group of friends. He told me that maybe it was a space concern, and I get how that could be - maybe they thought by inviting me they would also have to invite my husbands, etc so I can see that as valid. But since they didn't ask him or anything, I find that probably not really valid.

This is a bit disconcerting because WarMan has been so stressed out about scheduling lately. He was on edge and agitated and he asked me about Christmas plans last night, which we had, I thought, already nailed down previously. He wasn't proposing any huge changes and he didn't have any conflicts, but it was also really clear that his friend group with Monkey didn't want me in attendance with him then either. I told him that if we are going to be a primary relationship, then eventually this was going to have to be addressed. It feels wrong to me - because this is not a group of random friends, he considers them his close family. I do sort of feel like this is my anti-poly. I don't like this model of keeping things separate and it sucks to feel like an entire bunch of people dislike me so intensely that I am to be excluded from my significant other's holiday plans. Regular get-togethers, meh. That sucks too, but it doesn't bother me as much as holidays, and I honestly don't know if that sort of separation will work for me long term.

I've decided that I am not going to worry about it right now, though there is this nagging feeling in the back of my head saying this could be a major issue. What happens if there was a time conflict? Would WarMan back me up? Or would he discount me? I guess the fear that he will eventually consider me not that important is driving this for me. But, honestly, my stress card is full enough that I don't need to add new crap onto it.

Overall, I had a good holiday and this afternoon my oldest daughter will be driving in from NY and I am so excited to see her. She will meet WarMan tomorrow. :)
 
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...I asked him what was wrong and he told me that Monkey had messaged him, saying that her husband was upset that he had skipped going to their friendsgiving...
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I think it is pretty likely that Monkey was the one upset, not her husband and the poly trio. Why would she tell him that otherwise, unless she wanted him to feel guilty?

My mother-in-law on Roger's side is notorious for doing this. Whenever she is hurt that we didn't attend something, she tells us that all of Roger's family was really hurt by our actions. When we talk to the rest of the family, they assure us that they completely understood why we didn't attend the event and were not upset by it in the least, but SHE was upset.

On the one hand, I try to empathize with her, given that she feels unable to express this directly to us and does feel hurt. On the other hand, it is quite passive aggressive and done with the intent of making Roger and me feel poorly. If she is able to externalize the pain, she can be a bit meaner about it (e.g., "I really can't believe you would hurt X like that.") So needless to say, I've been pretty angry about this behavior in the past. I don't mean to demonize Monkey, but if this were what she were doing, I would be inclined (as Warman) to call it out for what it is.

Bluebird, I'm sorry to hear that you're doubting whether Warman sees you as important in his life. It's very clear that he views you as quite important. I hear that you're looking for any potential red flags in your relationship, especially since you're both still raw, but give it some time. It IS the first Thanksgiving together -- who knows what the friend group was thinking. And Warman's pretty proactive about coming out to others (his family, for instance) to have them know about you. I think you two need some time to heal as a couple.
 
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