Not sure how to feel about this

[drgnfly]

Hello all, I'm hoping to gain some incite as I am not that familiar with the BDSM scene. It look's like I will be learning a lot soon though. I'm conflicted on how to feel on what's going on with my friend. The story:
My FWB (friends for aprox 5 years, B for almost two month's) will be meeting up with a new "friend" she met through a dating sight tomorrow. I actually feel good for her since she is just out of a long term relationship situation. Jealousy is not an issue here. Our agreement right now does not allow me to take thing's forward on a romantic level. With this I am able to separate emotions, for now. The B portion with us is definitely secure. I don't have any objections to her letting loose, as long as she is safe about thing's.
Saying that, my concern's come from the friendship level. I say this because I would have them even if we weren't involved.
This is a quick list of what I remember, I will add more as I can:
Now keep in mind, she has not been talking to her new friend much more than a week, if even that.
He has already claimed her as a submissive. They are meeting at a motel because although he has a home, there's a situation that he cant being her there... She said the less she knows about this the better for her own mindset.
I am glad there are discussed boundaries. Just wondering on thing's like she has to get permission to be with anyone from him. He required her to and she already has sent pictures of her doing sex thing's. They haven't even met and he is already talking about tieing her to a bed, blindfolding her, and running a train on her (wow).
She is going into this mainly for sex, and admits she don't even know compatibility yet.
Now knowing much about the lifestyle, Is this normal? Is there advantages being taken? I know obviously not if she is fully agreeing to it, But I already get the feeling she is not going to play entirely by his rules.
I have been learning her a lot in the past few month's about her. I can see some thing's, example is since she is strong willed normally, so becoming a slave may do what she need's. I just don't see others, like a free for all train on her, without her knowledge of who is involved.
I have said my concern's to her and hope for her best. Otherwise I am numb.

 

[Tinwen]

Hello,
wow. I am somewhat into the scene, though I did not have a lot of partners, but this is such a broad subject, that it is impossible to say what is "normal" or "desirable". But this definitely does raise concern.

"She has not been talking to her new friend much more than a week, if even that. He has already claimed her as a submissive. They haven't even met."
Well, for this reason alone I would not get involved. But that is me. Being (a) submissive to someone means a lot more to me.

"She said the less she knows about this the better for her own mindset. "
Fair enough, I can understand that. I is exciting in it's own way to submit to someone you don't know. She wants to take the risk and perhaps skip the first coffee date. I would love to do that someday, but I probably won't.
It is generally not advised to do that and go into something without precautions (the coffee date, references about the self-proclaimed dominant, having someone to check in on the phone with you after a few hours of the first meeting ... and possibly a test for STDs).
Is she experienced in the lifestyle? Or is she just jumping for the first "dominant" who wants her to submit?

"He required her to and she already has sent pictures of her doing sex thing's."
Again, this is risky behaviour unless she doesn't mind her pictures all over the internet. But whatever turns her on.

"He is already talking about tieing her to a bed, blindfolding her, and running a train on her (wow)."
This sounds like a masturbation fantasy. Men online do that a lot. I would consider it rude, but again, that is me. I think unless she really consents to this, she needn't tell you. Perhaps ask her not to so you are less worried.

"She is going into this mainly for sex, and admits she don't even know compatibility yet. ... I know obviously not if she is fully agreeing to it, But I already get the feeling she is not going to play entirely by his rules."
So she is somewhat cautious about this. That is good, perhaps you can trust her to judge for herself.

The guy sounds to me like a big online talker and with a great ego. Him trying to claim her sexuality before the first date doesn't sound very respecting to me. I don't think he is necessarily taking advantage of her, yet I would not be surprised if he had no real experience a wouldn't show up for the first meeting at all
But still, he might turn out ok.

As a friend, you might want to tell your FWB about sub fever, especially if she is inexperienced.
http://www.submissiveguide.com/2012/01/understanding-sub-fever/
http://www.submissiveguide.com/2009/06/sub-frenzy/
("Novice submissives lose their rational thought really easily when the fever takes hold. I’ve seen it here on the site and chat room. These people will latch on to the first Dominant to offer them a collar even if the compatibility is way off and then wind up hurt emotionally, mentally or worse. It’s hard to know what I can do in those cases.")
Perhaps you can even help her navigate finding a reliable Dom.

Your real concern, and the only thing you have a say about, should be health. YOUR health. You might not want to sleep with her should she choose to sleep with this man without a STI test.

 

[GalaGirl]

I think it is too much too fast. On both sides. He's rushing and so's she. I think she could do the coffee date and "interview" stuff first.

I agree with Tinwen about sub fever. I think it is no different than getting all NRE crazy in poly -- the adrenalin brain dump (along with other hormones) is a kind of "high" and sometimes people want to chase the high no matter what.

Is she going to use kite string or similar apps to raise the flag if it gets too be too much for her? Some other method?

You have already expressed your concerns, and she's an adult. If she goes there, it's her choice.

You can hope for the best, and decide if this behavior is a deal breaker for you. She sounds like she's into risky behavior that isn't so much your cup of tea. I know she's thinking about assessing (sexual compatibility) with him, but YOU might want to assess (BF and friend compatibility) with her.

Feeling numb is pretty deep stress.

You might want to google that -- and sit up and pay attention. To me it sound like you are trying to deal with news you find traumatic. And you know what?

Learning your new GF of 2 mos wants to sign up for a potential rape scene with strangers sounds traumatic for you. That's hard news to swallow. What does she do if it crosses the line from doing a scene to gang rape? I get the appeal of edge play, but one could ramp up and built trust and get references first, not go there straight out of the gate.

If you are learning she's kinda reckless in her kink practices, and this leads to risks for your mental health (feeling numb, super stress) and your physical health (her sex practices affecting your sex health)... maybe you guys are not a good fit together.

If you determine that (being with her) has a price of admission that is (more risks than you feel comfortable dealing in)? That's a good reason to end it. Not compatible. Don't pay.

Galagirl

 

[Tinwen]

I agree with Tinwen about sub fever. I think it is no different than getting all NRE crazy in poly -- the adrenalin brain dump (along with other hormones) is a kind of "high" and sometimes people want to chase the high no matter what.

Yes I think the chemicals must be similar to NRE. Sub fewer would be something like NRE without an object, or perhaps it has more in common with just getting really, really horny - it is more of an intense longing accompanied with vivid and frequent fantasies of scenes and submission. You get the feeling like you cannot hold back. In the poly-parallel I would compare it to people learning there is such thing as polyamory, and get all swept away by the feeling like they found themselves and have to open their long-term relationship now and find a partner immediately.
I think it has to do with suppressed/long time unfulfilled needs (not necessarily only sexual needs). Sub fewer would precede NRE, it is usually most intense if you have no one to scene with. You can help it a little (at least for a day or so ) by having a scene, even if it is not with someone whom you call your dom.

OP, good luck, I wish you wisdom when talking with your friend.

 

[drgnfly]

Thank you Tinwen and GalaGirl, i feel a little better that it's just not me being paranoid. Yes that is traumatic and could be why i am conflicted.
Yes she defiantly has a fever, though i tend to think it's more like her going into heat.I am going to have to read up on sub fever. Your Both right I do have the option to stop my own activities with her. She knows it too, and did seam worried i may take that option. From how she approached me when we started I have to trust her judgement as far as testing and sexual safety. I do not know him, so i do not trust him. Yes my health is important, but more important for me is the health of my primary.
As far as her experience she says she has had two past partners that were into it, I do not know how much she has on her own. I do know first hand she is no stranger to sex. She is straight forward with what she want's, almost negotiation like. Unlike most girl's around here who talk big, she has always followed through. Our agreement with us seeing others is to inform, which she is following. I do not know what they are planning or their tap out safety precaution's.
I cant say i know his credential's. From what she has told me I get the feel there may not be a lot of experience there. A lot of what she tells me he said does seem rude and disrespectful. I also acknowledge I may be getting a filtered version of the story. It may be just all fantasy to him, he may be a big talker. In that case i feel sorry for him if he show's because she will end up being the teacher. I guess I will know soon.
Unfortunately Most of what i know of the scene comes from pop culture and porn. The local Swinger and BDSM (the new's didn't seem to differentiate) recently got a lot of bad press for doing a nighttime takeover of an indoor kiddie restaurant/play area. The type you would take your kid to a birthday party at. I do have some interests, but because of that I'm hesitant.
If this is what she is getting into I might have to guide her to a better experience. There is a vanilla meetup coming up that is suppose to be a mixture of poly/kink people. I was planning on checking it out before she expressed interests, but now she would like to go as well.

 

[drgnfly]

What does she do if it crosses the line from playing a scene to gang rape?

I actually told her I would want to be present with control over the situation if she were to ever do anything like that. Make sure no one would take advantage, or charge admission, do my best to keep her safe. I honestly don't know if this is what she want's, It's does not seem to be what she is looking for.
I'll share that adventure if need be, it is not something i am going to promote.

 

[GalaGirl]

Yes my health is important, but more important for me is the health of my primary.

I will gently suggest your health could be your first priority. Her health could be hers. Everyone holds their own baggage.

She can have lots of your care, attention and help. Even all the way up to 49% if you choose. But you keep 51% of your concern for YOU.
Guard against soft feelings for her tempting you to cast your own well being aside.

I hope this goes well for both of you.

Galagirl

 

[vinsanity0]

I've been a Dom and/or Master for 30 years.

This sounds like a huge leap of faith to be talking about gang bangs and stuff for a first date. At the same time, a lot of it might be just fantasy and talk...for now at least. Already wanting control of her other relationships could be a warning sign. The rude and disrespectful part? Sometimes it seems that way to outsiders so it's hard to say. I'm getting a bad vibe, but that is probably coming from your description. Normally a submissive woman isn't so quick to allow that much control before they even meet though.

I only personally know one woman who is into gang bangs. She would never let a stranger run one in a hotel room though. She did them in a local club with plenty of supervision. She did meet me the first time in a hotel room but we communicated extensively through emails, texts and phone calls for about a week before I got into her town. Even then she had a "no bondage on the first play date" rule. She was actually pretty awesome and I can't wait to get back there...but I digress.

Currently I am talking to the woman who happens to have been my very first official sub. I think she has very much caught sub fever. She has many wild fantasies and she will have to slow down. But fantasies like that rarely become a reality immediately. She's only done this with me.

I do hope the Dom guy isn't one of those internet doms who doesn't truly understand consent. Do you have doubts about her ability to negotiate scenes? She does have some experience. Are there warning signs that she is self-destructive, or just she just like having a wild time?

 

[KC43]

Unfortunately, I've seen (online, on sites like AdultFriendFinder and FetLife) a number of wannabe Doms who think all it takes to be a Dominant is bossing someone around and taking, or at least trying to take, their free will away entirely. They believe a Dom gets full and total control of their sub and can do and say anything they please, and the sub has to just put up and shut up because, after all, they're the sub. Some of them just don't comprehend what BDSM is actually about; some are drawing incorrect conclusions from porn and/or books like that Shades one. Some are just assholes looking for an excuse to be an asshole.

Regardless of the reasons behind it, these people can be dangerous to someone who is also inexperienced and unfamiliar with things like Safe, Sane, Consensual (SSC) or RACK, which if I remember right stands for Risk Aware Consensual Kink (someone correct me if I've got that wrong, please). These might be people who are in the throes of sub frenzy, or who have read the same books or seen the same porn, and they don't understand that they do actually have the right to set limits, and they don't have to do anything they aren't okay with solely because someone who says they're a Dom orders them to.

A qualifier for the last sentence above: In some D/s dynamics, yes, the sub does have to do something they aren't okay with because their Dom tells them to. But this is, as I understand it, usually done within prenegotiated limits, between two people who have developed trust and a relationship of some sort, and the sub has given their consent to doing whatever the Dom says even if it isn't okay.

In my case, Woody is *always* my Dom and I am *always* his sub, but that doesn't mean he has full control over me, nor does he want to. He would never dream of telling me I need his permission to talk to anyone, or of forbidding me to talk to someone. He might express concern about someone I'm talking with and say that he thinks it would be better if I didn't talk to them, but the choice is still mine.

And other than some things that I've green-lighted for him to do or demand at any time, he would never do something to me or even tell me he's going to without giving me a choice in it. There is sometimes a "I know you aren't okay with this, but you need to do it," but those are things that fit in with one aspect I've already consented to, which is him doing things or telling me to do things to try to break me free of some of my PTSD and anxiety triggers. However, even in that case, I still can say, "No, I can't do that right now," and he just says, "All right, I'll tell you to do it another time."

Bottom line: Dominance doesn't automatically mean entirely taking away someone's free will or agency. Submission doesn't automatically mean doing whatever some self-proclaimed Dom says whether you want to or not. And engaging in boundary-pushing behavior in potentially unsafe settings with someone you barely know is extremely unwise whether you're talking BDSM or the blandest, most vanilla date ever.

 

[IndieSolo]

I would want to know someone extremely well before letting him Dom me, and I'd have to trust him completely. BDSM can involve things that are dangerous and even fatal. I would have to know without a doubt that he would respect the boundaries I set, and that he will listen when I use a safeword. For those reasons, it seems rather irresponsible of her to meet this guy. From what I've observed, there are a great many guys out there who call themselves Doms, but who are simply idiots or not to be trusted.

Does "running a train on her" mean setting up a gang bang? Without someone there to oversee it and protect her? While she is blindfolded? How does she know he won't be videotaping this and putting it on the internet? Where is her common sense? You may want to direct her to this thread.

 

[drgnfly]

I would want to know someone extremely well before letting him Dom me, and I'd have to trust him completely. BDSM can involve things that are dangerous and even fatal. I would have to know without a doubt that he would respect the boundaries I set, and that he will listen when I use a safeword. For those reasons, it seems rather irresponsible of her to meet this guy. From what I've observed, there are a great many guys out there who call themselves Doms, but who are simply idiots or not to be trusted.

Does "running a train on her" mean setting up a gang bang? Without someone there to oversee it and protect her? While she is blindfolded? How does she know he won't be videotaping this and putting it on the internet? Where is her common sense? You may want to direct her to this thread.

Yes, by train I mean a gang bang with a large amount of unknown men. My concern's are not only limited to videotaping, but the potential for disease transfer, and bodily harm. Also how do i know he isn't pimping her out? how is he finding and screening these people? Once they are there, how do you do you keep control?

I will not have to find out answers to these questions. She say's she will not be meeting with him again. I do not know details bit it wasn't as good as she hoped.

 

[drgnfly]

I will gently suggest your health could be your first priority. Her health could be hers. Everyone holds their own baggage.

She can have lots of your care, attention and help. Even all the way up to 49% if you choose. But you keep 51% of your concern for YOU.
Guard against soft feelings for her tempting you to cast your own well being aside.

I hope this goes well for both of you.

Galagirl

Yes, thank you, I will learn what I need to know to insure my safety.

 

[drgnfly]

Unfortunately, I've seen (online, on sites like AdultFriendFinder and FetLife) a number of wannabe Doms who think all it takes to be a Dominant is bossing someone around and taking, or at least trying to take, their free will away entirely.

engaging in boundary-pushing behavior in potentially unsafe settings with someone you barely know is extremely unwise whether you're talking BDSM or the blandest, most vanilla date ever.

I've been a Dom and/or Master for 30 years.

This sounds like a huge leap of faith to be talking about gang bangs and stuff for a first date. At the same time, a lot of it might be just fantasy and talk...for now at least.

I do hope the Dom guy isn't one of those internet doms who doesn't truly understand consent. Do you have doubts about her ability to negotiate scenes? She does have some experience. Are there warning signs that she is self-destructive, or just she just like having a wild time?

I think she is trying to let loose. It may be her trying it out, I get the feeling she is not very experienced. She does have a good base understanding of the concepts, and she does know how to negotiate thing's. I do not see her as self destructive, she has too many forward looking plans to improve herself.
I know she has fantasy's, i do not know who brought the gang bang idea up, i think him. He does sound like an internet cowboy to me. Whatever he is, he didn't come through for her.

Since she will not be continuing with him i brought up the idea of exploring into bdsm together. I do have interests there as well, I would like to learn more about Japanese rope bondage. Not the cut off of circulation in body parts stuff you see in porn, but the artistic rope tying and knotting aspect's.
We both agree that we would need more of a proper introduction into the scene, if such a thing exists.

 

[GalaGirl]

You were lucky he did not come through. Or he bailed because she was wanting to bring you.

There are safer ways to put a toe in water than to go meet up with some stranger going on about gang bangs. Sheesh! Even if she does want one, there's safer ways to arrange it in time with people she knows around. Not just off in some hotel with nobody or just you. What good would you be if you are overpowered and accosted also? The stranger could pimp BOTH of you out.

Could pay to take a weekend rope class at a dungeon or at a kink conference. I enjoyed taking mine. It was during the days and the teacher asked if people were going to show up for Open dungeon that night or the next. If so, he and his teaching assistant would go to be on hand if anyone got stuck or in trouble. That way they'd at least have two friendly faces with some references.

Maybe something like that could work for both of you so you feel safe enough?

Galagirl

 

[Tinwen]

I will not have to find out answers to these questions. She say's she will not be meeting with him again. I do not know details bit it wasn't as good as she hoped.

So glad she isn't getting caught in a bad relationship.

Since she will not be continuing with him i brought up the idea of exploring into bdsm together. I do have interests there as well, I would like to learn more about Japanese rope bondage. Not the cut off of circulation in body parts stuff you see in porn, but the artistic rope tying and knotting aspect's.
We both agree that we would need more of a proper introduction into the scene, if such a thing exists.

Yai, go ahead
I can't give info on the scene in NY, but there would be introductory workshops aimed at beginners specifically in my local club. Sure there is such thing in yours.
And I really enjoy shibari workshops. Find a teacher with emphasis on communication (like keeping nonverbal contact) if possible, the aesthetic/knotting aspect is nice on photos but not terribly interesting to the submissive.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi drgnfly,

I'm relieved for you and your FWB, that sounded like a bad deal with that Dom guy. Hopefully you can explore BDSM stuff in a more SSC environment.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[vinsanity0]

I think she is trying to let loose. It may be her trying it out, I get the feeling she is not very experienced. She does have a good base understanding of the concepts, and she does know how to negotiate thing's. I do not see her as self destructive, she has too many forward looking plans to improve herself.
I know she has fantasy's, i do not know who brought the gang bang idea up, i think him. He does sound like an internet cowboy to me. Whatever he is, he didn't come through for her.

Since she will not be continuing with him i brought up the idea of exploring into bdsm together. I do have interests there as well, I would like to learn more about Japanese rope bondage. Not the cut off of circulation in body parts stuff you see in porn, but the artistic rope tying and knotting aspect's.
We both agree that we would need more of a proper introduction into the scene, if such a thing exists.

Your area has a huge scene. Look up some munches to get to know other people. You can also look up clubs that cater to bdsm. There are probably tons of classes on everything. FetLife is a good place to find events and classes as well. You expressed some concern with regards to some people getting busted doing stuff in public. In general the scene is not like that. It can be a little cliquish but there are many helpful people.

Good luck and I'm glad everything turned out OK. Sorry I can't be more helpful. I haven't played in NYC in ages.

 

[vinsanity0]

So glad she isn't getting caught in a bad relationship.


Yai, go ahead
I can't give info on the scene in NY, but there would be introductory workshops aimed at beginners specifically in my local club. Sure there is such thing in yours.
And I really enjoy shibari workshops. Find a teacher with emphasis on communication (like keeping nonverbal contact) if possible, the aesthetic/knotting aspect is nice on photos but not terribly interesting to the submissive.

Well that depends on the sub...lol

 

[Tinwen]

Well that depends on the sub...lol

Well yeah, you are right O I kind of generalized my and my friends experience, and made a guess about that woman, sorry.

 

[drgnfly]

Your area has a huge scene. Look up some munches to get to know other people. You can also look up clubs that cater to bdsm. There are probably tons of classes on everything. FetLife is a good place to find events and classes as well. You expressed some concern with regards to some people getting busted doing stuff in public. In general the scene is not like that. It can be a little cliquish but there are many helpful people.

I recently joined FetLife, I am still exploring it but have recognize some people from this forum there (is it proper to friend request like that? I was thinking of it once I billed up my profile more). I also am planning on attending a poly munch coming up. There is definitely a lot more locally going on than i realized, both poly and kink.
I am glad to hear that what happened in the new's is not normal. I survived school so click's wont bother me. Hopefully i will find the helpful people.