I can't believe I'm considering this

CTF

Member
Let me first start off by recognizing the fact that my ideals do not fit in with those of most people here. I am adamantly, and un-apologetically monogamous, and I have zero interest in going the route of opening our marriage on a physical, as well as emotional/romantic basis. My wife knows this, and accepts this. Many of you know my story, and for those that don't, you can read about it or pm me for questions/details. It's not something that I am going to repeat the dozens of long winded posts over at this time.

That being said. We just celebrated our 17th anniversary this past weekend. In the days leading up to it, things seems to have been going well. We spent the entire day/evening just out & about doing things together. However, in the evening, as we're leaving the parking lot of the movie theater, she noticed on Facebook, that one of her online gaming friends had passed away due to complications of a stroke. Needless to say, it put a damper on the rest of the weekend. Understandably so. Even though she wasn't particularly close with this person, it was a blow to the entire community of their game. I get it, and my condolences go out to any of them affected.

To give a little background and to avoid potential confusion, it's important to point out that I had served my wife an ultimatum regarding one person in particular, whom I felt that his presence was severely creating a negative impact on our marriage - that as long as she continued to communicate with him, I would not be comfortable in our marriage. She agreed to sever ties with him. I know it sounds unreasonable, but the fact is, that it hurt way too much to know that there was a possibility that this budding relationship (whether romantic or platonic) was causing her to virtually ignore me and leave me to fend for myself in grieving the loss of my father at the time. And once she came out as poly 6 months later, there seemed to be no effort to allow me to take the time to process this. The very next day, she was back to spending the entire day with him online, while I sat on the couch wondering what the hell had just happened.

On Sunday, we had our first real conversation about the topic in months. I began to feel a little better when she mentioned that part of the reason she avoided me, was that she simply had trouble figuring out how to be supportive to me. I've never really taken loss of family members so hard before, so she's never really had to console me like that. But this was different. It was my dad. But at least now, I don't have this feeling that she just simply didn't care. She admitted that the timing for everything was poor. And she does have her own mental illness to contend with. At the time, I guess I just thought that one time of me needing a rock to lean on in her wasn't such an unreasonable expectation. But it's done, over with, and we can move on.

Now to get to the meat of the matter (sorry it took so long, I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible). I began contemplating the possibility of working out an agreement, in which she will begin to be able to speak with him again. Just to be clear, I never expressly forbade it, it was her decision all along, but I was ready to leave if it continued. But under the right circumstances, I think that there may be some room for both he and I in her life. And although I have a few conditions that, if met, could make this a possibility, I'm afraid that this might not be something that I could be comfortable with either way. The last thing I want to do, is keep going back & forth on this, and leave her in a perpetual state of wondering if and when I'm going to freak out.

Are there any suggestions out there about how to get the ball rolling, without either one of us feeling like emotional yo-yos?
 
Now to get to the meat of the matter (sorry it took so long, I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible). I began contemplating the possibility of working out an agreement, in which she will begin to be able to speak with him again. Just to be clear, I never expressly forbade it, it was her decision all along, but I was ready to leave if it continued. But under the right circumstances, I think that there may be some room for both he and I in her life. And although I have a few conditions that, if met, could make this a possibility, I'm afraid that this might not be something that I could be comfortable with either way. The last thing I want to do, is keep going back & forth on this, and leave her in a perpetual state of wondering if and when I'm going to freak out

You may want to be explicit - you *might* be ok if they spoke to each other again. This reads like you *might* be ok if they were platonic friends who were in contact. If that's correct, I suggest telling your wife this, explicitly.

What would be your conditions? The devil is in the details, as always.

You could say you don't really know if you could actually handle them being in communication again. That sounds like its where you are now, and that's an honest, healthy place to be. Sometimes we just don't know.

The thing is, it's not just you and her. He's impacted too. He would also be left to wonder if/when you would freak out and communication would end again. It would be cruel to 'allow' them contact if you are likely to be unable to handle this. (I put allow in quotes as I am aware your wife cut contact in response to your pain, not as an outright demand from you.)

I personally would be unable to maintain a platonic friendship with someone whose partner demanded that much control - even indirectly - over the relationship. (Friendships are relationships - often really important ones.) I would not want to be the friend who is cut off, and I certainly would not want to reprise that experience. That would be too painful for me. He might be willing to take that risk. That's possible.

You have to go the route that makes sense for you and for your wife. Just keep in mind that this is a painful situation for not just you and her, but him as well. Good luck.
 
I am hearing this, in this order of importance. You correct me if I am wrong:

  • She dumped the Dude. It's been quiet for months. In that time, we've been healing, recently celebrated 17 years together, and she started to admit she didn't know how to help me grieve so she avoided me. In other words... STILL HEALING.
  • The last thing I want to do, is keep going back & forth on this.
  • I'm starting to think about the possibility of working out an agreement (with conditions) in which she will begin to be able to speak with him again. The conditions are... ?

In your shoes, I would take a bit more time. Because you had to mourn two things. Not just (the passing of your father) but (the idea that your wife would be there no matter what) and this time she wasn't. She wasn't able to because she didn't know how. And she wasn't able to tell you at time that she was willing but not able.

You might be done with the first batch of grief process for Dad, but you sound like you are in the upward turn stage of the second process to me. While that is good, it's also not DONE. So I would take more time, keep thinking, and say nothing to wife just yet since you don't want to be yo-yoing.

And figure out your consequences. Last time you held on til you could no more and wanted to divorce. Don't go that route again here if you choose to open that door. Set your deal breakers early. If this is about wanting to be able to trust your wife again, there's other ways to do that.

And you know what? She might have conditions of her own, and her own deal breakers. She might come out with "Ok, but next time I might chose divorce, dude. I won't always just dump the person you do not like."

Another way to "not go back and forth on this" is just not go there at all. Work on trust rebuild and giving clear communication in other ways instead.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Being a guy who is in the same position as your wife's friend, I think it would be wise to make sure you are okay with it fully before proceeding.
 
Thank you all. First off... I definitely wasn't going to move forward on this without making fully sure that I could be comfortable with it. It wouldn't be fair to anyone.

As for the conditions, etc... Those are things that I'm still trying to figure out what I think I could & couldn't deal with. And some, I'm not exactly sure how to go about achieving, so the pieces are not all there yet. However, there are a few that come to mind.

1: It must never go beyond a platonic friendship. Since my wife claims that that's all it ever was, it shouldn't be a tough one to keep?

2: Much, much better management of time. Our time together, must remain our time together. No texting him while we're spending time together. No more delaying our plans for an hour+ because a game they were playing ran long, no more 10 hour sessions, etc...

3: I need to not only be able to fully trust her, but I must be able to trust him as well. Which means he cannot choose to act as though I am not a part of the package. Not that I expect us to be buddies, but I do expect a fair amount of civility & respect, which, in turn I am more than willing to give. If I have a question to ask him, I demand honestly, and so on.

4: No in person meeting. This shouldn't be a problem, considering there are 3000 miles between him, and us. But on the off chance that either one of us finds ourselves traveling into the area of the other, there will not be a get together.

I have a few more that I can't quite figure out the logistics of it yet. But I must also convey the fact that his feelings are of zero importance to me. I'm all for fairness, but the ONLY reason I'm even on the fence about this, is for her.
 
Are all these hard limits that will never change no matter how much time?

Or soft limits that can change in time?

Some of these are not reasonable.

1: It must never go beyond a platonic friendship. Since my wife claims that that's all it ever was, it shouldn't be a tough one to keep?

It may have been all it was in the past. But moving forward, who knows? Feelings change. Rather than drawing the line at "it can never be more than platonic" like policing the feelings, I would reframe it at "If it becomes more than platonic, I expect you to tell me so we can redraw agreements." Focus on behavior done/not done. One cannot help how one feels. One CAN help how one chooses to behave in response to feelings.

And redrawing agreements may mean agreeing to part ways. Which is upsetting, but cleaner than cheating.

2: Much, much better management of time. Our time together, must remain our time together. No texting him while we're spending time together. No more delaying our plans for an hour+ because a game they were playing ran long, no more 10 hour sessions, etc...

That is rational and reasonable. She totally screwed up her time management last time. What's the consequence if her time management goes awry again?

3: I need to not only be able to fully trust her, but I must be able to trust him as well. Which means he cannot choose to act as though I am not a part of the package. Not that I expect us to be buddies, but I do expect a fair amount of civility & respect, which, in turn I am more than willing to give. If I have a question to ask him, I demand honestly, and so on.

Fair enough. What's the consequence if this does not happen?

4: No in person meeting. This shouldn't be a problem, considering there are 3000 miles between him, and us. But on the off chance that either one of us finds ourselves traveling into the area of the other, there will not be a get together.

Soft limit or hard limit? What's the consequence if this is broken?

Galagirl
 
Are all these hard limits that will never change no matter how much time?

Or soft limits that can change in time?

Some of these are not reasonable.



..."It may have been all it was in the past. But moving forward, who knows? Feelings change. Rather than drawing the line at "it can never be more than platonic" like policing the feelings, I would reframe it at "If it becomes more than platonic, I expect you to tell me so we can redraw agreements." Focus on behavior done/not done. One cannot help how one feels. One CAN help how one chooses to behave in response to feelings.

And redrawing agreements may mean agreeing to part ways. Which is upsetting, but cleaner than cheating."...

I understand that feelings generally are out of one's control. And while I certainly agree that how one chooses to act on, or react to those feelings are of key... It's a hard limit for me. It may not seem reasonable, but romantic relationships are off the table. As such, if things develop beyond a platonic state, the first consequence is either he disappears, or we part ways. Depending of course on how far things go, but romance is a deal breaker.

RE: Time management

..."That is rational and reasonable. She totally screwed up her time management last time. What's the consequence if her time management goes awry again?"...

I'm honestly not sure what a consequence would be as of yet. I suppose it depends on how badly the deal is broken. I'm not going to make a fuss over 5 minutes, but if things just suddenly reverted back the past "schedules", there would be problems. I definitely need to consider potential consequences on that one.

Re: Trust.

"Fair enough. What's the consequence if this does not happen?"...

Another one I need to give some thought. And this is one of the harder ones, because I really don't even know what it's going to take to regain that trust completely in the first place. As far as the respect from him, the consequence is simply that he disappears once again. But something that's going to have to be discussed with her prior to. Although, I'm not going to be bringing any of this up until I feel that this is something worth exploring anyway.


Re: In person meetings

Soft limit or hard limit? What's the consequence if this is broken?

Very hard limit. While it's much easier from our end to avoid traveling into his neck of the woods. I can't stop him from coming to Southern California for whatever reason he may have. A chance meeting at a Starbucks (while unlikely) is not impossible, I'd expect her to leave without even acknowledging he was there. Should he show up at our home (unfortunately, he does have our address), he'd be told to leave. If refused, I'd call the police.
 
Consequences are things YOU can do.

What do you mean "he disappears again?" How is that you doing something? Or do you mean YOU disappear?

Think carefully on those consequences.

Galagirl
 
CTF, can you explain *why* you're considering suggesting your wife re-establish contact with this guy? Is she asking? Does she seem unhappy without his friendship?

To be honest, you don't sound comfortable at all with the idea. I'm not sure if it's trust issues with her, or with him, or just not liking the idea of her being so close to this guy... But you already sound defensive and angry. You'd want her to ignore him if she somehow ran into him on the street???

I'll be honest, if someone said I could only have a "friendship" under all those conditions, I'd pass. It would be nerve wracking to try and be friends with someone, while worrying that caring too much about them could ruin my marriage. Maybe it would be better for you and your wife to just move on and focus on getting your own relationship healthy again... And focus on friendships that don't need lists of rules and restrictions.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma + 1. This is exactly my feelings on your topic.

Why are you considering this?
Is she complaining? Is she limited in her on-line game?
Is it that you kind of "principally" don't want to limit her more then necessary?

Don't tempt your wife by offering a hard-to-keep deal.

Or, if you really feel this might be a good idea, at least understand her standpoint before you make an offer. Does she want to be friends with him? What is her offer on how to not let this endanger your marriage? Perhaps if you let her design bounds and conditions in advance, you can see that she is reasonable and can trust her some more.
 
Last edited:
It almost sounds to me like you're testing your wife, setting her up to fail. Hopefully that isn't your *conscious* line of thinking, but some of the things you're saying point to that being at least a subconscious factor. I could be wrong; wouldn't be the first time.

As far as your first rule: I would strongly recommend not telling her she can't develop non-platonic *feelings* for the guy without losing you, because as GalaGirl pointed out, feelings happen. Actions are what matters, so it would be entirely reasonable for you to tell her "If you *act on* non-platonic feelings for him, or *express* non-platonic feelings for him to either him or me, this is over." Then you're giving her a specific, identifiable *action* that will result in consequences, rather than trying to make rules about her emotions or trying to force her to make rules about them.

Given that you say it's unlikely you or your wife would randomly run into this guy, this might be irrelevant, but I think it's unreasonable for you to tell her she would have to completely ignore him if she did happen to run into him. Regardless of the history between them, deliberately ignoring someone you know is pretty fricking rude, in my opinion. Keeping him from showing up at your place is easier; all your wife has to do is say to him, "If by some chance you're ever in our neck of the woods, don't come anywhere near our house." If he's a respectful guy, that should put an end to the possibility. Since you say it's unlikely he would be in that area anyway, I think you're overreacting pretty strongly by saying "If he showed up at our house and wouldn't leave, I would call the cops" when it's very easy to make sure he doesn't show up at your house in the first place.
 
Thank you all. To answer the frequent question as to "why" I'm contemplating this... I think it's more or less to try & give the benefit of the doubt that I may have overreacted in the first place. Although, admittedly, I find myself caught in between the need to trust her intentions (or lack thereof), while still not being sure I can trust his. She has stated that she missed his friendship, and she does feel that by me not trusting him, that that somehow reflects not trusting her as well. Which is a fair point, but difficult to convey that this isn't necessarily true. I don't look at this as "setting her up to fail", but rather, perhaps an opportunity to succeed, and show me that I may have been connecting dots that didn't really exist before.

And yes, I know that it sounds odd to say that having non-platonic feelings, vs acting on them is a deal breaker - but - coming from someone who has never had non-platonic feelings for another while we've been together, I don't find it at all difficult to back off from a circumstance if stronger feelings ever began to develop. In other words, don't put yourself in such a situation in the first place, and if it starts gravitating there, stop it before it has a chance to escalate.

As for the meetings... I agree, it does seem rude to just ignore someone when seeing them out & about in public. Truth be told, there isn't really a circumstance I can envision where that would ever happen. So I'm not going to worry about that. However, it would have to be agreed upon by all BEFORE re-establishing anything, that in person meets are off the table. Obviously, it's easier to tell him not to come to our house, but it would also have to be explicitly clear that no arrangements would be made to meet anywhere else.

And yes. Consequences are something I can do. And depending on the circumstance, it may involve me leaving, or it may need to involve him leaving in order for me to stay. Although there is still much to figure out before anything is said. And it is a two way street. She may have conditions of her own, and she may have consequences of her own. I am fully prepared for that.

The point from the very beginning, was that she had claimed that this was never anything more than platonic, and while I'm not 100% sure that that was the case, there is a part of me that is willing to take her at her word. If I was wrong about how I perceived it, then I don't feel it's fair to block it. But sex & romance have always been a deal breaker for me when it comes to other people.
 
So basically, the chain of consequences runs like this ...

  • Obey the rules.
  • If a rule is broken, then she must cut off contact with him.
  • If a rule is broken, and contact with him continues, then you will leave her.
Is that right?
 
So basically, the chain of consequences runs like this ...

  • Obey the rules.
  • If a rule is broken, then she must cut off contact with him.
  • If a rule is broken, and contact with him continues, then you will leave her.
Is that right?

The word "obey" sounds harsh. But essentially, yes. We follow what we agree upon, if the guidelines/rules/agreements, etc... aren't adhered to, then contact is severed again. If we can't agree upon that, then we go our separate ways.
 
And yes, I know that it sounds odd to say that having non-platonic feelings, vs acting on them is a deal breaker - but - coming from someone who has never had non-platonic feelings for another while we've been together, I don't find it at all difficult to back off from a circumstance if stronger feelings ever began to develop. In other words, don't put yourself in such a situation in the first place, and if it starts gravitating there, stop it before it has a chance to escalate.

Why aren't you taking your own advice? And just not opening the door again and putting yourself back in that situation?

And since right now your thoughts are gravitating toward going there again (i.e.: wife and her pal actively communicating again) ... why aren't you stopping it before it has a chance to escalate? :confused:

Galagirl
 
Why aren't you taking your own advice? And just not opening the door again and putting yourself back in that situation?

And since right now your thoughts are gravitating toward going there again (i.e.: wife and her pal actively communicating again) ... why aren't you stopping it before it has a chance to escalate? :confused:

Galagirl

To be clear, I have not discussed this with my wife. Right now, she has no idea I'm considering it. I will not choose to entertain this if I am not fully confident that their communication will not go beyond a platonic nature. If that's what she misses, and that was truly all it ever was, then I would have been in the wrong to take the stance that I did, and I am willing to do what I need to in order to be fair.

It's not that I'm not taking my own advice. Quite the opposite really. I'm simply in the stage where I'm working out the ability to be comfortable with it, providing it remains within the platonic friendship matters. If either of them feel that it may not be possible to keep with that, then no deal. But again, nothing will be said until I have more time to process what I'm prepared to do.
 
Frankly, if I were you, I'd leave the current boundary in place and forget about accepting some limited contact between them. It will just be much too stressful to police their interactions and her behavior to make sure no deal-breaking activities happen.

Many poly people have boundaries regarding "messy" people (no dating relatives, co-workers, etc.). So this guy is on your Messy People list for platonic friends. I see no reas on to make any adjustments to this. I would only consider this, if I were in your shoes, maybe a year down the road, but ONLY IF she had rebuilt my trust in her completely.
 
I know you haven't told your wife anything. I just don't think going down that path is a good choice.

I'd leave it alone. Let it be over and let it be done.

I think it's more or less to try & give the benefit of the doubt that I may have overreacted in the first place.

You can apologize for that, and that could be enough. And moving forward with new friends, you are willing to give benefit of the doubt. And moving forward with new friends she could manage her time a lot better and not avoid difficult conversation with you. Just tell you if she doesn't know how to do something.

Although, admittedly, I find myself caught in between the need to trust her intentions (or lack thereof), while still not being sure I can trust his.

This was written only 2 months ago:

CTF said:
Initially, yes, my wife had called me selfish. But it was much more than that, she & her other friends had essentially discussed the matter, and one was able to convince her that it was a form of "emotional abuse". The fellow she had been "involved" with (to whatever degree has still never been fully resolved) suggested that she leave me for being too controlling. She tells her therapist that I simply don't want her to have any friends. And when I told her (and him) that as long as he has a presence in her life, that I will never be comfortable in OUR marriage, I was treated as some sort of monster that even had my kids not talking to me for a while.

Why would you trust him? He's a stranger. Who was telling her to dump you and flit off with him at one point if I recall correctly. You could not trust him. And be ok not trusting him. And you could work on rebuilding trust with wife. Those things do not need to connect.

I don't think that she'd have been so quick to choose to stay, vs move across country in pursuit of the unknown with a barely employed man-child who still lives with his mother & grandmother. She would be leaving A LOT behind if she did. Not just the tangible things, or even a marriage like ours, but the kids, a lot of family she has here, etc

I don't think that above has been resolved. Did she stay in the marriage because she wants to be with you? Or because she loves her stuff and moving is a drag?

Flash forward to now... She hasn't worked in 10 months. She barely leaves the house. Has no interest in doing anything but watch movies all day. Anytime I suggest we get out & do something, there's no interest unless it's going shopping. And don't get me wrong, I will ALWAYS consider her beautiful no matter what, but she's taken no interest in her physical appearance. Sh does bathe & brush her teeth, but she's gained a good 50 lbs since she's been out of work. The only time she gets out of her pajamas, is when she leaves the house, but puts them back on as soon as she gets home.

And there's still her depression stuff above to deal with.

In your shoes? I would focus on strengthening the marriage and clearing some of these other things off the table. Keep clearing stuff OFF.

Rather than put a NEW thing on the already overloaded table by starting a new thing with the weird Dude.

She slid into a depression and handled it wonky. You were in your own depression and handled it wonky too. This shows a weak spot that you guys now know about. When both of you are down, nobody's on deck. You could focus on strengthening that individually and as partners.

She has stated that she missed his friendship,

Fair enough. So you respond with " I know" and leave her to deal with her emotional management surrounding her breaking up with Dude. She has her therapist. Be ok with her dealing with "missing him feelings" for a while. That is a natural consequence of her choosing to give up the friend and stay with the marriage. You were willing to divorce. She could have gone with that.

and she does feel that by me not trusting him, that that somehow reflects not trusting her as well.

That's connecting dots that don't need to connect. You wife seems to be doing emotional reasoning there. Sounds a lot like before to me:

Again, the tone she takes with me, she's presenting it as though I took away a platonic friend. She kept saying over & over that it signifies that I don't trust her to be able to say no to letting him into our bed. To which I explained that since I've already received the shock of a lifetime just hearing that she might want to sleep with him (personally, I think it goes much deeper than that), I'm in a constant state of panic over what the next big shocking revelation could be.

She kept saying things like "I don't want to sleep with him yet, or I don't view him romantically "right now". Basically taking the never say never approach. Which would be understandable, if it weren't for the fact that I cannot feel safe if I feel that the "yet" could become reality at any moment.

Just changed the channel to a new thing. Before it was that you don't trust her to tell him no if he wants to get into bed. Not that she'd mind getting into bed with him. Now it is you don't trust him. So that means you don't trust her.

None of that is logical. With your wife's mental health issues? I think she talks nonsense sometimes. And in your own funk, you sometimes take it too personally and too seriously. Logically? He's given you no reason to trust him, and the way she talks sometimes? It makes it hard to trust her. HER behavior makes it hard to trust HER. Not his behavior.

You are trying to rebuild trust with your PATIENT wife. HOW you are thinking about doing it? I think you could do it another way without involving the Dude. You have enough on your plate without involving him directly again. That whole blame shifting attitude of hers... that doesn't sound like it was resolved. And she's got a way of speaking that doesn't seem to change.

If some of that is patient babble, and she's not able to change it? You are going to have to get used to it and let it go when it happens. If that's too much for you, you might have to let the marriage go. Not because of Dude, but because HER behaviors are too hard for you to handle and still remain healthy yourself.

She is obviously not healthy, both mentally or physically. And in reality, I think that that's why I find myself fighting so hard to trust her & salvage what we have. Had she been an otherwise healthy person, I'd have probably left some time ago. But I love her, and it pains me to see what's become of her. All can really be forgiven in light of what's going on with her, but I need to see from her that she wants this all to work too.

Talk to your own counselor about this "staying because I feel too guilty to leave" stuff. You have your own depression and mental health stuff to sort out. I don't see how adding the weird Dude BACK is going to alleviate either hers or yours.

I'm not trying to be unkind here, but you seem to be on a very slippery slope to me. :(

If either of them feel that it may not be possible to keep with that, then no deal.

That relies on them being honest about their intentions with you in the first place. The cowboy. And the depressed patient person who talks ... weird sometimes.

I wouldn't give your power away like that. Consider rebuilding trust with wife in another way.

This is for a cheating affair, but it applies to friendship, I think.

http://felislunae.org/relationships-love/coming-clean/

Seems cleaner for her to go make a new gaming friend. She blew it with this one. The price is giving him up. Just like if it were a cheating affair. Even if the married couple moves on to poly after all, the price of admission is giving up the cheating affair partner.

It is super hard to go from cheating to poly with the cheating partner. I don't see how going from cowboy friendship to being friends is any different. To be honest, your wife sounds like she was hurting from the mourning, wanting to run away from dealing with it because she didn't know how, not honest with you about where she was at, seeking escapism, and found some predatory sounding "friend."

A friend would have urged you both toward grief counseling, or at least honesty with each other, and pointed out she's spending lots of time gaming.

A friend would not encourage her to dump you and go live with him.

Skip this whole thing and don't bother thinking about going there again. That would be my advice. You have other fish to fry still.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
I have to agree with those that are saying those rules are too much. Way too much. To be frank, if my spouse had any rules about platonic friendships I would think her insane. If you need that sort of control you are not ready, in my opinion, whatever that's worth.
 
Galagirls (as often excellent) review +1.

You have reasons to think him untrustworthy.
Your wife has much on her plate, and watching herself constantly if her feelings are going beyond platonic would not lessen her load.
Besides, there is no clear line between "friend" and "platonic love". It may be a continuum in some cases, and any boundary you draw is somewhat artificial. Don't tempt it this time, and consider being more aware of the continuum next time.
 
Back
Top