To be or not to be.

[Inthedark]

Over the past few weeks I have been doing a lot of soul searching. If anyone has read any of my previous posts, they will know that I have been having some marital issues. The cliff notes version is this. My wife and I both identify as poly, we are living a poly lifestyle since 2014, my wife has had several relationships and I have yet to venture out side of the marriage. After a sort of poly "dry spell" following the end of one of my wife's relationships, my wife entered into several cyber-relationships. I had a problem with this. and turned to this forum and other poly groups for advice. That's where I am today.

After much internal debate, I think that I have decided that, even though I really agree with poly principles and I do think that I have the polyamorous ability to love more, I just don't think I can live the lifestyle. I've found that I have very little desire to open myself up to anyone but my wife. I also don't have a sexual desire for anyone but my wife. So I guess that I have decided that I will be monogamous of action even if I may not be monogamous of mind. I fully believe that this will cause me much heartache at some point but I am prepared to handle it.

I think that the primary reason I have made this decision is that I really don't want to be a hypocrite as far as my wife is concerned. I don't want to tell her that I am bothered by some of her relationships if I myself am in a relationship. I am prepared for all the negative responses that I may get to that comment. But the facts of the matter are a) I know that I will receive far more positive feedback than negative and b) there are just some things that my wife is doing that I am having trouble handling and I believe that this will help me to address those issues with her without the threat of a being told that I am a hypocrite. I also belief that it will help me focus on fixing myself so that I can be the best husband and lover that I can be to my wife.

Well, I guess that's about it.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Inthedark,

I'm sure you'll be fine, lots of mono/poly couples are successful as are lots of closed V's (mine included). My only caution is to be prepared for as-yet-unknown resistance from your wife; even if she can't accuse you of hypocrisy she may have other arguments with whatever you need to tell her.

Keep us posted if you're willing.
Sincere regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Tinwen]

Mixing separate things together?

I had to read your other post (http://polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78060) to get an idea what is going on.

So, your wife is in NRE with some facebook guys and she is neglecting you. That is a bundle of issues. But I just want to comment on you deciding not to be poly here. BTW, what I don't understand

Did you decide to be monogamous on your side, but still supporting of poly for your wife,
OR
did you decide you cannot live with a polyamorous relationship and will be monogamous no matter what (closed with your wife, or divorce)?

As for the reasons, I think you should really separate them:

After much internal debate, I think that I have decided that, even though I really agree with poly principles and I do think that I have the polyamorous ability to love more, I just don't think I can live the lifestyle. I've found that I have very little desire to open myself up to anyone but my wife. I also don't have a sexual desire for anyone but my wife. So I guess that I have decided that I will be monogamous of action even if I may not be monogamous of mind.

Not being attracted to anyone else (being satisfied monogamous) is IMHO a very good reason to stay monogamous.
Should you happen to be attracted to someone at some point, would you consider poly?

I think that the primary reason I have made this decision is that I really don't want to be a hypocrite as far as my wife is concerned. I don't want to tell her that I am bothered by some of her relationships if I myself am in a relationship. I am prepared for all the negative responses that I may get to that comment. But the facts of the matter are a) I know that I will receive far more positive feedback than negative and b) there are just some things that my wife is doing that I am having trouble handling and I believe that this will help me to address those issues with her without the threat of a being told that I am a hypocrite.

I don't really understand. Are you afraid of being a hypocrite, of being accused of being a hypocrite?
If the first, is it because you intend to ask her to go monogamous?
If the second, that is IMHO not a fear worthy of following. It would be deriving your own self-image from your wife's opinion.

You know, you may not be bothered by poly itself, but you could stil be bothered by the way she is doing poly. Is that what you are saying? That you are bothered by the neglect? Or by the number of her partners and that she makes you compete with them?
What is hypocritical about telling her, that you won't do poly under these conditions and setting some guidelines of kind behaviour (which should also apply to your future relationships)?

I also belief that it will help me focus on fixing myself so that I can be the best husband and lover that I can be to my wife.

This I think, is a good reason to stay monogamous yourself.
However it is somewhat dangerous to set it as a expectation, like "if she is not willing to close, she doesn't want to be a good lover to me". That might not be true, people are different.

 

[Inthedark]

Tinwen,
Thank you for your response and for your counsel! I think the best thing to say is that right now I am just so damn confused, I'm not sure which way is up. I think that it is clear that I have a pretty low opinion of myself right now and I am falling into many mind traps. I wish that you could be a fly on the wall. I have a hard time expressing in these posts the manner in which our conversations occur. I usually end up making her sound evil and making myself sound like a victim. In some ways that may be the case but also in many ways I am the perpetrator and she is the victim. I honestly don't think that our marriage is healthy enough to try to live this lifestyle. I cannot force her to give up the lifestyle that she wants to live. I can only do my best to try to fix myself, stand by her and support her and above all, treat her the way that I want to be treated. I guess some little part of me wants to say, "Look, I am committed to you and only you and I would like for you to consider me in a similar manner." Does that make sense?
So to answer your questions:

Did you decide to be monogamous on your side, but still supporting of poly for your wife,
OR
did you decide you cannot live with a polyamorous relationship and will be monogamous no matter what (closed with your wife, or divorce)?

I desperately want to support my wife and her poly lifestyle. I have decided to play a mono role because things with us are not stable enough for me to devote time to another person. I don't need the relationship to be closed. I just need some validation and consideration. Right now, to me, divorce is not an option because there are so many other options that we haven't yet exhausted.

Not being attracted to anyone else (being satisfied monogamous) is IMHO a very good reason to stay monogamous.
Should you happen to be attracted to someone at some point, would you consider poly?

To me being poly is so much more than just attraction. I am very picky and I want to find that perfect someone, who may, in fact, not exist. At some point, if I find the right person and I feel that my primary relationship can handle it, I would consider living poly. Also, when we started this thing a couple years ago, it was supposed to be something that we did together. Unfortunately, she was unable to wait for me (I an in the Army and was deployed to the Middle East when we decided to be open) and she entered into a relationship without me. There was potential for me to join when I got home but I was not "attracted" physically, mentally or emotionally to the other couple. My quest for "perfection" frustrated my wife and she decided to strike out on her own. I am shy and introverted and my time in combat has caused me to develop some anxiety and adjustment problems as well as some delusional thought patterns. This went a long way to preventing me form developing any successful extra-marital relationships and has also prevented me from believing that my wife would support me having another relationship. So we ended up in a pattern of her living he life and me trying to ride her coat tails or vicariously live through her.

I don't really understand. Are you afraid of being a hypocrite, of being accused of being a hypocrite?
If the first, is it because you intend to ask her to go monogamous?
If the second, that is IMHO not a fear worthy of following. It would be deriving your own self-image from your wife's opinion.


So, my answer to the hypocrite question is simply, both. I don't want to be one and I don't want to be accused of being one and I also don't want to think of myself as one!
I don't want to have to ask my wife to be mono but part of me wants her to realize, not that she should be, but that it is an option.
I do derive a lot of my self-image from my wife and what I think she thinks of me. She is hard to love and a challenge to live with. We don't communicate well. I hate to say it, but I feel that she is narcissistic to the point of fault. I get the impression that she does not have the ability to consider my emotions or how her actions affect me. Or, she just doesn't care. That's a hard pill to swallow. But maybe that is just something that I have made up in my mind. Maybe it isn't really the case. Unfortunately, all my instincts tell me it is the truth. For instance, I once told her that her texting for hours and hours every night made me feel like she didn't want to spend any time with me and I asked her if she could give me one hour per night. She got very angry and defensive and basically I was told that that was not going to happen and maybe I should find something else to do. Lately, she has warmed to the idea of letting me share in some of her texting activities and that has helped a little. Sometimes, when she texts while I am trying to go to bed I glance over and see some of her conversations. Many are very sexually charged and she talks about doing things with others that she would never consider doing with me. I know that this is largely fantasy but I end up obsessing over things I saw and took out of context. I end up getting hurt and its not even her fault. The idea of her being in love and loving another man or woman doesn't bother me. The idea of he having sex with another woman doesn't bother me and the idea of he being with one other man is ok too. We've actually done that and it actually brought us closer. The idea of he being with multiple men, or even worse, multiple men at the same time is devastating to me. So yeah, I am bothered by the way she is poly (I think she is more of a swinger) and the number of poly partners. I do feel neglected and (the reason for the length of this post) is because I can't talk to anyone about it.
When we started this thing she was more than willing to negotiate, compromise, establish rules and follow those rules. Now every time I bring up the rules, the fact that she is skirting or flat out breaking the rules, or the idea of negotiation, she get angry or shuts down. Right now it's her way or the highway. If I could get her to open up and tell me why it is that way, maybe I could find a better way to deal with it. Until that happens, I remain alone with my thoughts.
One final wrinkle... We have talked for over a year about experimenting with the world of BDSM just to kind of spice things up. For a long time that was "our thing." Unfortunately, neither one of us really knew where to start. Not long ago, we found out that there is quite a robust community in our town and we decided to check out a BDSM social club. However, schedules and other time conflicts has prevented us from moving forward with this idea. Recently, she joined a BDSM social media site and her Facebook Poly took off there. Now she has a few people who want to be her "Dom" or "Master," a role that was always supposed to be mine and mine only. There is one man in particular that whants to be her long distance Dom. The things she has told me about him and the way things may work out would mean that she will have to take a considerable amount of time away from me and our children in order to complete "tasks" for this guy. To me that violates rule number one which is "Now extra-marital relationship will in any way affect or be brought to the attention of the children AND no extra-marital relationship will be brought into our home." While this man is 1000 miles away, I think that the potential requirements of this agreement violate the spirit of this rule. Now, I have expressed this and have told her that I am not inflexible. I am willing to negotiate. Guess what? That caused an argument and she shut down and shut me out.
Also, she asked that, to help with my social anxiety, for me to step out of my comfort zone, go to the social club by myself to check it out, and then guide her into the lifestyle. It was two days after this request that she started finding other "guides." My reaction to this is that this exploration is clearly not "our thing" and that she doesn't need me as a guide. I have had to wait for three weeks to attend the appropriate event at the club and I explained that it would take a little time. I will be attending tonight. My stomach is in knots and I am really, really afraid. Why should I put myself through this fear and pain (it's easier to be shot at by the Taliban, seriously) if she has found other guides and if I don't get any priority of position or place?
So, a final thought... I fear that I have lost my place as her primary, I fear that I am in no way a priority for her, and I am biding my time until she finds the man (or woman) that will replace me.
I am sorry for such a lengthy response and I hope you read it all. Thank you so much for your time and consideration.

 

[Tinwen]

When we started this thing she was more than willing to negotiate, compromise, establish rules and follow those rules. Now every time I bring up the rules, the fact that she is skirting or flat out breaking the rules, or the idea of negotiation, she get angry or shuts down. Right now it's her way or the highway. If I could get her to open up and tell me why it is that way, maybe I could find a better way to deal with it. Until that happens, I remain alone with my thoughts.
...
I fear that I have lost my place as her primary, I fear that I am in no way a priority for her, and I am biding my time until she finds the man (or woman) that will replace me.

I am sorry, this is a shitty place to be in.
I don't really have anything meaningful to contribute here given the complexity of the situation.
I hope for you this is not her reality.

I desperately want to support my wife and her poly lifestyle. I have decided to play a mono role because things with us are not stable enough for me to devote time to another person. I don't need the relationship to be closed. I just need some validation and consideration. Right now, to me, divorce is not an option because there are so many other options that we haven't yet exhausted.

You seem to have a good grip on how to work on your relationship, such as trying to understand why she is defensive, trying to connect and working on yourself as well. I hope you can make it.

Now she has a few people who want to be her "Dom" or "Master," a role that was always supposed to be mine and mine only. There is one man in particular that whants to be her long distance Dom. The things she has told me about him and the way things may work out would mean that she will have to take a considerable amount of time away from me and our children in order to complete "tasks" for this guy. To me that violates rule number one which is "Now extra-marital relationship will in any way affect or be brought to the attention of the children AND no extra-marital relationship will be brought into our home." While this man is 1000 miles away, I think that the potential requirements of this agreement violate the spirit of this rule. Now, I have expressed this and have told her that I am not inflexible. I am willing to negotiate. Guess what? That caused an argument and she shut down and shut me out.
Also, she asked that, to help with my social anxiety, for me to step out of my comfort zone, go to the social club by myself to check it out, and then guide her into the lifestyle. It was two days after this request that she started finding other "guides." My reaction to this is that this exploration is clearly not "our thing" and that she doesn't need me as a guide. I have had to wait for three weeks to attend the appropriate event at the club and I explained that it would take a little time. I will be attending tonight. My stomach is in knots and I am really, really afraid. Why should I put myself through this fear and pain (it's easier to be shot at by the Taliban, seriously) if she has found other guides and if I don't get any priority of position or place?

The BDSM bit is one I can understand somehow.

I hope you can read it before the event, or that the people in the club showed you there is really nothing to fear.
When I went to my first event, with my then boyfriend, we were so nervous, that we couldn't ring the doorbell and had to go around the block once more to make sure we want to do that Then we went in, were assigned someone to show us the club, and we took ten more minutes to undress, before we dared talking to the person
Guess what? The evening turned out great. We watched the presentations (it was an event for beginners), we even had someone teach us a few knots. I was really excited to see how all the submissives enjoyed themselves. I kind of felt much less weird and ashamed suddenly. I remember most of it, four years later.

The talking to a lot of potential doms on online, we had a debate about sub frenzy recently in another tread. It is a state of intense fantasising and longing for play and submission, basically a feeling that you have to get it "all and now". It can occur even with zero experience, and IMHO it can be even harder to control then NRE.
Check out google, for example this http://www.katekinsey.com/sub-frenzy.html , if this is the state your wife might be in.

I think the 1000 miles away self-proclaimed "dominant" will not do it for her. In-person connection is just so much stronger.
Having said that, there are a lot of good reasons to have your life (and love) parner as your dom, and also good reasons to have your dom outside of your marriage. Basically it seems at the first impression it is more arousing to submit to someone you don't know that well, and perhaps easier to respect someone with whom you don't have to argue about socks. But today I would rather my life partner to be my dom, because I feel it deepens love and understanding (but perhaps that is monogamous thinking), and you can go much deeper in the "relationship" part of submission.

As for that "check it out first" thing and you reaction "this is not our thing, she has other guides" it sounds like wishful thinking, that you could be a perfect dom after one visit in a club.
However, this might also be a chance - she asked you to guide her. This might be a "I want you as my dom" after all.
Please feel free to discard this advice if it doesn't apply, but I think you could be firm here. Dominance is not possible without respect, and it is partly earned (by dominants handling their part well) and mostly given (by the submissive who chooses her dominant). Bring it to her attention, and respond to the offer along the lines of "yes, if you wish I will be your dominant, I will study one step ahead of you and guide you into the lifestyle, but you must respect my rules on this and my learning pace (and not question my authority by listening to all sorts of online doms)." Tell her this is your demand as a dom, else you cannot do that, because 1) you don't want to, and 2) it is impossible. If she is just looking for someone else because she misses submission, she might listen.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Inthedark,

Just letting you know, I am still following this thread and reading your posts in it. Long posts do not deter me.

It seems that you have a problem in that your wife is unwilling to hear you and negotiate with you. I don't know if this is because she is all caught up with excitement about the BDSM world, or some other reason. I will try to gain better insight as the thread continues.

Hang in there and I hope we can help.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Inthedark]

Kevin,
I think that you are correct when you say that she is unwilling to hear or negotiate with me. I don't know if it is because of the BDSM or not. I ten to think that it is more narcissism than anything. It seems to me that we can talk and she takes my words into consideration until I say something that may make her feel guilty. I think that she bears a lot of guilt. I think that she wants to do the things that she wants to do but I think they make her feel guilty. I don't think that the guilt has anything to do with me or how her actions affect me, but rather I think she may be having a self image problem. I'm trying y best to build her up but it seems my efforts are in vain.
BTW... I wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your help and advice!

 

[Inthedark]

Tinwen,
I did in fact read your reply before I went to the club. I took what you said into consideration and I had a wonderful time. I met a couple of great people and the folks there either were very eager to introduce me to the lifestyle and their club or they just left me alone. I was able to observe and learn. I asked questions and some of the folks volunteered advice. It was very warm and welcoming. There were some other loners there that I could have played with but I didn't because that wasn't the point of my trip. When I returned home, my wife was very interested in hearing about my adventure. I think though that I may have scared her a little. Whether it was my enthusiasm or maybe her own fear of the unknown, I don't know. She asked me a question that I just knew I was going to hear. "Would you go back without me?" My answer was, "No," but I think I would because it was such a positive place. But at any rate, this question led me to believe that she might not want me to be her guide but she might be hoping that I can make this my thing so that she can do her thing. That's ok but if that is the case I wish she would just tell me instead of leading me on. That said, I'm not really interested in BDSM play unless she is involved. I would go back to the club for the social events but not for the play parties. But I think I'm going to bide my time, try not to put too much pressure on her, and see what happens.
BTW... If I haven't said so, thanks for all the help!

 

[kdt26417]

It almost sounds like your wife is trying to separate her world from your world. Is that a possibility?

 

[Tinwen]

Hi Inthedark,
you are welcome I am really glad you had a good time.

I am still very confused on your situation, there are new shades coming out in every post you write, and they are not easy to interpret at all.
I think this thread would better fit into the Poly relatioship corner. There seem to be more people reading on. Perhaps some admin could move the thread, or you might want to give more structure to your long post above and post it as an update to your original thread there?

I will comment a little more, but really, this is all foggy.

It almost sounds like your wife is trying to separate her world from your world. Is that a possibility?

I agree with Kevin on that one.
I do not know at all to what extend. It may be anything from wanting just a little more space (because you two are too entwined perhaps) to her not wanting the marriage any more (but let's not catastrophize), or perhaps her "just" avoiding conflict.

Kevin,
I think that you are correct when you say that she is unwilling to hear or negotiate with me. I don't know if it is because of the BDSM or not. I ten to think that it is more narcissism than anything.

BDSM would likely not be the main topic then.
Galagirl is really good with advice on personality disorders. Wished she could read through your posts :/
What behavior makes you label her narcissistic? I cannot tell from your writing. (The not listening part could be for other reasons.)

It seems to me that we can talk and she takes my words into consideration until I say something that may make her feel guilty. I think that she bears a lot of guilt. I think that she wants to do the things that she wants to do but I think they make her feel guilty. I don't think that the guilt has anything to do with me or how her actions affect me, but rather I think she may be having a self image problem. I'm trying y best to build her up but it seems my efforts are in vain.

Guilt is a beast.
Sadly, this is her work. You can't do it for her.

When I returned home, my wife was very interested in hearing about my adventure. I think though that I may have scared her a little. Whether it was my enthusiasm or maybe her own fear of the unknown, I don't know. She asked me a question that I just knew I was going to hear. "Would you go back without me?" My answer was, "No," but I think I would because it was such a positive place. But at any rate, this question led me to believe that she might not want me to be her guide but she might be hoping that I can make this my thing so that she can do her thing. That's ok but if that is the case I wish she would just tell me instead of leading me on.

Are you guessing here, trying to read her mind?
Can you ask her directly, why would she want you to go to the club without her, so you don't have to guess?
(I am good at making guesses too. Perhaps she is really afraid to go, thus choosing a dom 1000 miles away )

Are you letting her guess as well? Did you tell her, what your "No" means? That it is because it is a great place socially, but really you want to play with her only, so there is not much point without her?

 

[Inthedark]

I think so. It hurts because poly and BDSM was something I thought we were going to do together. In her defense, my anxiety and introversion probably pushed her toward this attempt at separation.

 

[kdt26417]

Well I hope you don't have to separate.

 

[Inthedark]

I am sorry if I am hard to follow. If we were talking in person it would be much easier to understand but in typing my posts I tend to leave out details. Still, even though it may be messy, your insight has been pretty good!

So I think that I am trying to read her mind to an extent but I also am pretty sure that I am reading the writing that is on the wall to an extent. Unfortunately, perception is reality in most cases and my perception is that she doesn't want to be involved in anything with me and also that I am really a secondary priority. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

I did tell her that I expected the question about going to the club on my own. She asked why I probably wouldn't and I told her that it was boring not being able to play. I did ask the reason for the question and she got really quiet and just shrugged. I am hesitant to directly ask her anything, even what she wants for dinner, because it usually leads to an argument or all I get is another, "I don't know."

 

[kdt26417]

It almost sounds like she is withholding communication.

 

[Inthedark]

Kevin,
again you are spot on. In the past, I had few issues with her relationships and the issues I did have were easy to resolve because we did communicate very effectively. We also had something that was "our thing." We live in Colorado and we loved to go gambling at the casinos in Cripple Creek. It would take about an hour and a half to get to the casino and we would have the best talks the whole way. Well, we kind of stopped doing that for whatever reason and now we don't have a thing. But yeah, I feel she is withholding that communication and I think that it is willful and intentional.

 

[Tinwen]

So, this seems to be the main problems.
- she is pulling back. She no longer makes you a priority.
- she doesn't communicate, though you had good communication before

Because she is hiding something?
​

- you cannot ask her a direct question, because she gets all defensive and doesn't answer.

Because of guilt?
Because she generally doesn't feel safe to be vulnerable now?
Doesn't want to be intimate with you?
Because she is manipulating you?
​

- you also don't do things together you used to. I assume you tried to suggest a casino trip together, and she doesn't want to.

Non of this main issues is probably poly related. Of course you can still ask here, I just want you to know.
Can the two of you seek a counselor? Or each of you for yourself?

In addition (more interpretation involved)
- she is escaping into online relationships
- you think she isn't hearing you about your feelings, she might be narcissistic

This means she might be manipulating you and using you as supply. I do not really hear that from the rest of your writing, especially the past of your relationship, but it is certainly a possibility.​

- she probably did try to manipulate you for whatever reason by sending you into the club alone

"To help your social anxiety." Oh really.​

- she isn't really showing effort to work on her deep issues, like guilt
- she wants to explore bdsm without you

Probably not much of a main issue, more a symptom of the above.​

AND
- you are generally an anxious person, and really in panic here

You blame yourself for possibly pushing her away with anxiety and introversion.​

- you put a LOT of effort into putting your relationship together

She percieves this a pressure rather then reciprocate.
You intend to stop pressing her (perhaps pulling back a little as well is wise?)
You know you could leave instead, but don't consider it an option (I think you should, if even just for really realizing, and letting her know, that this is an option, should the behavior continue for ??? time.)​

- you might be asking for things that really should remain private, like her facebook conversations
- you have some PTSD (?) symptoms after the war

Are you working in counselling?
Have you been more of a patient to her in the past years?​

Hope this helps add structure.

 

[Inthedark]

- she is pulling back. She no longer makes you a priority.
- she doesn't communicate, though you had good communication before

Because she is hiding something?

This is how I feel but I can't know if it is true because when I try to ask I either can't find the right words, it starts an argument or she shuts down. As far as hiding, I think she is not being open and honest and the whole cyber relationship thing was hidden from me in the beginning.

- you cannot ask her a direct question, because she gets all defensive and doesn't answer.

Because of guilt?
Because she generally doesn't feel safe to be vulnerable now?
Doesn't want to be intimate with you?
Because she is manipulating you?

I think all of the above are correct. I think that guilt may be the biggest issue. I also truly believe that she is trying to manipulate me in to allowing her to do what she wants without having to worry about the consequences that rules bring.

- you also don't do things together you used to. I assume you tried to suggest a casino trip together, and she doesn't want to.

We had to end our casino trips because of several factors but mainly because we were spending too much money. Unfortunately, we haven't found anything to do together that we like as much and many suggestions I make get shot down or get a "maybe next week."

Can the two of you seek a counselor? Or each of you for yourself?

Just before Christmas she told me she wanted a divorce. A few hours later she changed her mind. In our discussion after this incident I asked if she would go to counseling with me and she was very resistant to the idea. In the past we have gone to counseling and it really worked well until the counselor started telling her the things that she might need to change. I have seen counselors myself but most of mine have been military counselors (meaning... Not poly friendly). They also seemed not too interested in hearing about my marriage issues.

- she is escaping into online relationships
- you think she isn't hearing you about your feelings, she might be narcissistic

This means she might be manipulating you and using you as supply. I do not really hear that from the rest of your writing, especially the past of your relationship, but it is certainly a possibility.

- she probably did try to manipulate you for whatever reason by sending you into the club alone

"To help your social anxiety." Oh really.

Yes I think her online activity is a form of escapism. I think that it may be similar to a porn addiction. I believe that she is narcissistic to the point of not even caring about the emotions of others.
I'm not sure what you me by using me as a supply?
I think that her sending me to the club alone was an attempt to manipulate me. I think the intent was for me to go meet a girl that I could hook up with. She doesn't really do much research on things and she often confuses the poly, swinger, and BDSM lifestyles or she lumps them all together. I think that her rationale for sending me to the club was twofold. I think that she was hoping I would find a play partner to distract me from her activities and make me stop asking her to play with me and I think that she was hoping I would have sex with someone. I think the latter is because she feels that I have a superiority complex and that I am holier that she because I haven't stepped outside the marriage. If I sleep with someone the it puts us on the same level and there is no reason for her to feel guilty then.

- you are generally an anxious person, and really in panic here

You blame yourself for possibly pushing her away with anxiety and introversion.

I am in a panic because I know how good a person she is and can be when she brings down her barriers and I love that person and don't want to lose her.
I also blame myself for everything. If its raining outside I somehow believe that its my fault. But as far as our relationship goes, I think the self-blame is a conditioned response.

You intend to stop pressing her (perhaps pulling back a little as well is wise?)

I am trying really hard to back off and give her space but it is difficult because she has told me more than once that the reason she started the online relationships is because she wasn't getting the attention from me. I have trouble finding balance.

- you might be asking for things that really should remain private, like her facebook conversations
- you have some PTSD (?) symptoms after the war

I have asked for some private stuff but I have realized, before it was too big an issue, that I was wrong for that. I do read over her shoulder from time to time because she has either told me it was of or because I couldn't help it. She does a lot of texting while I am trying to go to sleep. Sometimes I roll over and wake up and am able to read her phone. I don't want to and I don't like to but on these occasions I find it difficult not to. I've asked her to go to another room and even offered to sleep somewhere else but she refuses to go anywhere and if I get up to go sleep on the couch she gets super pissed off!
As far as PTSD, I have never been formally diagnosed but there may be a mild touch.

So I respond well when people ask me questions so I think that this did add some structure.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from Inthedark):

"If it's raining outside I somehow believe that it's my fault."

So you're the one who ordered this rain!

kidding

I get the impression she wants things to *appear* as if they're okay, hence not wanting you to sleep on the couch, etc.

Sucks that you're limited to military counselors; you could sure use a poly-friendly counselor. Oh well, we will try to help you on this forum as much as possible.

So ... what are your goals, personal and relationship goals?

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Spork]

OK, Inthedark, I just found and read through all of this. Wish I'd seen it a couple days ago, because we could have had a good conversation at the club (I was there--short brunette, round glasses, tattoos) but there were many new faces and I'm not sure which one was yours! Apologies in advance for the novel. I'm not good at concise.

I'm going to tell you a tale and let's see if this resonates, at all, for you...

I was married a long time, and my husband was in the Army. When we first met, he was the Alpha Male top dog of our social group. Granted...I won't speak for the quality of the other men in said group, but he was definitely the biggest baddest personality there. We embarked on life's journey together as carefree kids, but soon enough the real stresses of money and pregnancy, kids and life, started to bear down. For whatever reason it started, he showed me an insecure side. A VERY insecure side. He was jealous, possessive, afraid of other men taking me away. I wanted a strong, assertive, dominant man, and what I had was a puppy looking up at me with puppy eyes begging for sex, love, validation, forever afraid that his place by my side wasn't safe. He put me on a pedestal and looked to me to give him reason to live and his entire sense of self worth. His every accomplishment in the last 18 years could not have been accomplished without me (he says, and it's pretty true.) I felt like I had to be a brick wall of competence and strength at ALL TIMES. I could not be weak or supported, I had to support him. Always. I lost my respect for him, more and more. I felt like I had not a partner, but a third child. After we split last year I realized that I wanted to mess around with BDSM because I wanted to have a stonger person...someone I could really believe was stronger than me...step in and allow me a safe place to be weak and vulnerable, to fall apart and have someone else take charge. To be human.

Being in the military is hard. Being a military wife can also be hard. Especially for those of us who work full time AND take the burden of managing all of the household and children, knowing how hard our husbands work. For me and mine, the final straw was when he got out and didn't (for over 2 years) go find work to do, but sat at home slowly losing his mind with no purpose. Unless I'm mistaken you're either recently out or getting out soon...do NOT be that guy. If you don't have to work, work anyways, or volunteer. For your own sanity.

He now complains that I'm "into things" that I was never into during our marriage. I ALWAYS would have been into those things. But not with him. Why? 1. His insecurity and lack of mastery of himself meant that I could not take him seriously as a Dom (in fact I believe he is more of a sub, really.) 2. I didn't feel safe being that vulnerable with him. He has a negative and shameful view of sex, which means that exposing my own sexual fantasies and desires is giving someone ammo to shame me with. And I had to be perfect. So that just wouldn't do.

Now...maybe none of this is remotely similar to your situation at all. But I get the sense, from what you have said here, that she DOES want to come with you. She does want you as her Dom, perhaps. She has just lost faith that you can do it. Your insecurity has made you seem weak to her, and she is craving a man who knows his place and helps her to feel comfortable in hers. Somewhere along the lines, seeing too much of your human weaknesses and maybe having to be too strong, has made her lose some respect for you. Or else I am simply projecting! LOL And that is possible too.

But don't tell her you wouldn't go back without her if you would (don't lie.) I'd be interested to know how she'd react if you said, "I'm going back, and you're going with me." (You'd have to arrange a kid-sitter, tho.) Or perhaps a cavalier, "Maybe." I'd suggest that you take charge of yourself, and then take charge of her, and see what comes of it. I do not see a good outcome with the direction things are moving right now. You need to regain her trust and respect, and be able to address and respect each other's needs and repair your broken dynamics. The constant messing around seems (to me) like a combo of sub-frenzy, with a prodding of you to see if you'll stand up and take charge and be The Man for her. And if you can't...she'll find a new Alpha/Primary. She does seem to be looking for one.

 

[Tinwen]

I don't have much time, so I'll try not to write too long posts in the next few days ... ok, didn't work with this one .

However, it seems I got the stuff from my morning post right Hence, questions and suggestions.

1)

Just before Christmas she told me she wanted a divorce. A few hours later she changed her mind.

I missed that one, if you wrote it earlyer.
Did she then tell you why?
That would be the basic message, wouldn't it?

2) I really, really do agree with Spork on the need of a strong(er) man. I did catch that line as well. I wasn't sure, there may be a lot more going on. I can relate to nearly everything she wrote, though I obviously haven't been a military wife.
So the suggestion is:
Take better care of yourself in the first place. Not her, not the relationship, you. Get emotionally stronger, and get support elsewhere, so you can bear 51% of the responsibilities and emotional and practical hardship of the relationship.
And her suggestion how to be a dom is very similar to mine, so I guess we are both projecting

3) Communication suggestion: write instead of talking. If she is shut down by guilt when trying to talk, would she be willing to write you an email about what she feels or what bothers her most? Like that, she doesn't have to fear your judging reaction. Prerequisite - reassure her, that you can read and work through anything.

4) I also got a very strong impression, like there is a need to rewrite rules from scratch. Not "negotiate" or "adjust" the existing. It seems to me like she has settled for something not aligned with herself for too long. Now she is having an overreaction in the opposite direction. Let your wife write down what she wants and considers reasonable. What you learn might turn your view upside down. Once emotions settle, I suggest taking her view as a new starting point.

5)

I believe that she is narcissistic to the point of not even caring about the emotions of others.

Sorry to ask again, but why do you believe this? Can you back this up with specific examples of behaviour, preferably not the recent neglect? Can you think of signs of this when you were dating? Can you see it in her friendships? And, of similar importance, can you think of opposite examples?

6) One more question: Is your wife financially, concerning housing, or in any other way dependant on you and therefore not free to leave, if she really wants to?