To be or not to be.
- Thread starter Inthedark
- Start date
The game is afoot
Hello everyone.
Well, it looks like the game has begun. Yesterday, my wife began her journey into the world of being a cyber-submissive. While the terms of the agreement have not been fully discussed with me as of this writing, I do have some small details. These details were given to me by her and I have made a journeyman's effort to not allow my voyeuristic nature to take control even though I have clearly seen an unhidden notepad with some of the rules written on them in my bedroom. The rules I know are, pictures must be provided to the Dom on a daily basis each morning and prior to bed each night and she must ask permission from the Dom prior to attending any events at the local BDSM club with or without me.
I have a desperate desire to allow her to have her fun and to enjoy this experience. She has honored me by asking for my permission to participate in the game (even to the point of begging). This has stroked my ego and the small area of my psyche that identifies as Dominant. However, as I suspected, there are rules that have an affect on me. I have a feeling that, because of the rule that prohibits her from attending the club without me, there may be other rules that prohibit or limit her from other romantic or sexual contact with me. As I do not know for certain and because I want to give her the opportunity to share the rules with me of her own accord, I am refusing to allow myself to feel anger or jealousy. Rather, I find myself both withdrawing from her and into myself and thinking of things that I may use as tools of negotiation. For example, If the rule is that she must ask permission to go to the club with me, I will not give her the need to ask for that permission because I will not invite her to go with me. This does seem somewhat childish and quid-pro-quo, I know, but it is simply an idea at this point.
I take issue with the idea that any play partner, especially one that is 1000 miles away, believes that he has the right or the power to affect me. I am not a player in this game and I feel that I should not be subordinate to him. He is not my Dom. He is aware of me and is aware of my position as my wife's primary. I feel that he, knowingly or not, is taking advantage of my wife's sub-frenzy. To what end I do not know. I feel attacked and I feel that I must do something to take back my own power. I mean power over myself rather than power over her. I must find a way to let her know that I am not subordinate to her Dom and that I will not tolerate being taken advantage of. But first, I must know, rather than suspect, what is true and what may be poor conclusions that I am jumping too. I feel that I must out Dom the Dom. In order to do that, I must take control of my own emotions and climb out of this hole of weakness that I have dug myself into.
I look forward to hearing any comments and criticism that may be offered.
Hello everyone.
Well, it looks like the game has begun. Yesterday, my wife began her journey into the world of being a cyber-submissive. While the terms of the agreement have not been fully discussed with me as of this writing, I do have some small details. These details were given to me by her and I have made a journeyman's effort to not allow my voyeuristic nature to take control even though I have clearly seen an unhidden notepad with some of the rules written on them in my bedroom. The rules I know are, pictures must be provided to the Dom on a daily basis each morning and prior to bed each night and she must ask permission from the Dom prior to attending any events at the local BDSM club with or without me.
I have a desperate desire to allow her to have her fun and to enjoy this experience. She has honored me by asking for my permission to participate in the game (even to the point of begging). This has stroked my ego and the small area of my psyche that identifies as Dominant. However, as I suspected, there are rules that have an affect on me. I have a feeling that, because of the rule that prohibits her from attending the club without me, there may be other rules that prohibit or limit her from other romantic or sexual contact with me. As I do not know for certain and because I want to give her the opportunity to share the rules with me of her own accord, I am refusing to allow myself to feel anger or jealousy. Rather, I find myself both withdrawing from her and into myself and thinking of things that I may use as tools of negotiation. For example, If the rule is that she must ask permission to go to the club with me, I will not give her the need to ask for that permission because I will not invite her to go with me. This does seem somewhat childish and quid-pro-quo, I know, but it is simply an idea at this point.
I take issue with the idea that any play partner, especially one that is 1000 miles away, believes that he has the right or the power to affect me. I am not a player in this game and I feel that I should not be subordinate to him. He is not my Dom. He is aware of me and is aware of my position as my wife's primary. I feel that he, knowingly or not, is taking advantage of my wife's sub-frenzy. To what end I do not know. I feel attacked and I feel that I must do something to take back my own power. I mean power over myself rather than power over her. I must find a way to let her know that I am not subordinate to her Dom and that I will not tolerate being taken advantage of. But first, I must know, rather than suspect, what is true and what may be poor conclusions that I am jumping too. I feel that I must out Dom the Dom. In order to do that, I must take control of my own emotions and climb out of this hole of weakness that I have dug myself into.
I look forward to hearing any comments and criticism that may be offered.
Ok, that stirred up a lot of emotions in me.
What is not good, is that you are not asked for informed consent. You should know, perhaps not all rules, but the ones which affect you directly, if you are asked to consent!
It is very unfortunate that "the game" has already begun, without discusing with you prior.
If I were you, I would tell her that I do want to consent, but I need to know the rules that affect me beforehand. Take at least a day or two to think and discuss, could they agree to that? Asking for informed consent rather then for you to be ok with whatever comes?
At this point, he is not trying to dominate you. He is setting rules with your wife that affect you, yes. That is not the same. And she is consenting to this behaviour. It is hard to set rules that will not affect you at all, so I guess he assumes that she manages her marriage and knows the extend of your consent.
You could ask to talk to him as well. Not for competition, but to clarify your views and let the other know how you feel and see how he feels. Perhaps he is a nice guy.
Also assuming the worst - asking for permission should be a play tool, not something limiting her enjoyment. If she wants to go to the club, you could assume that she gets that permission, unless there is some kind of a good reason (like, she has a cold but wants to go anyway).
I suggest
1) Calm down, try to step back from your ego and competition. Beware of passive aggressivity.
2) Thank her for asking for your consent. Tell her that you want her to have fun.
But that you would like to be informed of the rules that affect you, simply to prevent stirring up unnecessary jealousy and resentment later, when you get to know the rules by surprise, and also to have and idea of what you are agreeing to. This is not spying, since you only ask for things that affect you, not all other rules, and it has a good reason.
Do not tell her, that you are ok, if you are not.
3) If you feel like it, ask to talk to him. He is not your enemy. Tell him that you are concerned about rules affecting you, and ask him if he is willing to minimise them.
4) Consider, if you can take what is going on. If you cannot, tell them what you consider disrespectful. Asked for that rule to be changed. If they are overall unwilling to compromise? You can accomodate, or reconsider if this relationship is for you.
Good. She honored you. She asked perhaps not your permission (she can go ahead even if you don't like it), but your consent. You get the opportunity to say your input. You do want to let her play, so the game is likely to happen.
What is not good, is that you are not asked for informed consent. You should know, perhaps not all rules, but the ones which affect you directly, if you are asked to consent!
It is very unfortunate that "the game" has already begun, without discusing with you prior.
If I were you, I would tell her that I do want to consent, but I need to know the rules that affect me beforehand. Take at least a day or two to think and discuss, could they agree to that? Asking for informed consent rather then for you to be ok with whatever comes?
As I said above, I would ask for the rules that affect me. And please, do not prohibit yourself feeling. You don't have to act on them, like throwing a tantrum. Just let them pass. Express them in private. Prohibiting yourself anger lead to more anger and passive aggressive behaviour!
Wait wait wait. You cannot have a productive discusion in that mindset. I suggest you assume that he will take you into account. Offer the respect and good will that you expect.
At this point, he is not trying to dominate you. He is setting rules with your wife that affect you, yes. That is not the same. And she is consenting to this behaviour. It is hard to set rules that will not affect you at all, so I guess he assumes that she manages her marriage and knows the extend of your consent.
You could ask to talk to him as well. Not for competition, but to clarify your views and let the other know how you feel and see how he feels. Perhaps he is a nice guy.
Indeed. That seems childish and passive agressive to me. It could be a reasonable boundary if you decide and inform her, that you do not consent to this rule, but, as I read it, you didn't tell her that you do not consent. But at this point, this is not a tool of negotiation, this is tool of applying pressure.
Also assuming the worst - asking for permission should be a play tool, not something limiting her enjoyment. If she wants to go to the club, you could assume that she gets that permission, unless there is some kind of a good reason (like, she has a cold but wants to go anyway).
I suggest
1) Calm down, try to step back from your ego and competition. Beware of passive aggressivity.
2) Thank her for asking for your consent. Tell her that you want her to have fun.
But that you would like to be informed of the rules that affect you, simply to prevent stirring up unnecessary jealousy and resentment later, when you get to know the rules by surprise, and also to have and idea of what you are agreeing to. This is not spying, since you only ask for things that affect you, not all other rules, and it has a good reason.
Do not tell her, that you are ok, if you are not.
3) If you feel like it, ask to talk to him. He is not your enemy. Tell him that you are concerned about rules affecting you, and ask him if he is willing to minimise them.
4) Consider, if you can take what is going on. If you cannot, tell them what you consider disrespectful. Asked for that rule to be changed. If they are overall unwilling to compromise? You can accomodate, or reconsider if this relationship is for you.
Very good. It will take time though. You have probably walked down into depression for years, it may take years to get back on top. My experience. Be gentle with yourself, please.
Tinwen,
Thank you for your consideration and counsel!
the moral of the story is that I woke up with a much clearer mind and am not in the mood to turn this into a fight.
Thank you again. This is exactly the kind of constructive advice and criticism that I have been hoping to receive!
Thank you for your consideration and counsel!
I agree, I thought the negotiations would take longer. And maybe they are in the process of negotiating while easing into play. This is something I will have to ask about.
I think that this is exactly what I did. If this had occurred earlier, even just a few days ago, I would have thrown a tantrum. She informed me about having to ask permission to go to the club last night (via text message) while we were at dinner with our kids (we obviously don't talk out loud about this stuff around the children). I think I did get flushed and almost angry but I chewed it back and willfully decided not to throw a tantrum, and not to let it ruin our dinner or our night. I did say, out loud, "No you don't, but we will talk about this later." To this she smiled and I almost think there was a glimmer of relief on her face. Almost as if she had hoped that I would say something similar. Now, my tantrums look very similar to my actions of giving her space. I believe that she may have misinterpreted the fact that I gave her space as a tantrum. Usually, after dinner, we will relax in our bedroom together. Last night I decided that I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to deal with my temptation of reading over her shoulder, I didn't want her to have to hide her phone or computer screen, I didn't want her to feel smothered. This is something I told her that I was likely to start doing. Unfortunately, when it was time for me to go to bed, I laid down and, as happens so often, I couldn't sleep! I began expressing my frustration at this through heavy sighs and body language. This is similar to my tantrum behavior. She responded with her own negative body language. I did clear things up though when I told her that I was sleepy but couldn't sleep.
the moral of the story is that I woke up with a much clearer mind and am not in the mood to turn this into a fight.
This is good advice! I feel like I am being put into the position of needing to compete but maybe I should ask for clarification instead of going off half cocked. I have considered asking to speak to him. I am planning on taking some time to write him a letter today that I will let my wife read and consent to before I send it. I am also considering writing a new set of relationship rules as our old rules no longer seem to fit our situation. Of course, she will have input on the rules as it is her marriage too.
I have yet to comment on whether or not I consent. I recognized the need to cool off before I said anything. This morning we were engaged in the hustle and bustle of morning routines so it wasn't the time. This conversation will probably happen tonight. I am assuming that if she wants to go to the club, that she will. I am also assuming that I will explain to her and her Dom that I have a hard limit when it comes to any of their play that negatively affects me. And by that I mean... I do realize that they will have rules and play that affects me (i.e. something that may take her attention away from me for a period of time) but what I mean as negatively affecting me is something that disrupts our marriage and our quest to improve our relations ship. If, for instance, there is a rule that states that she is not allowed to have sex with me unless she has permission, that is what I consider a rule that negatively affects me.
These are all great suggestions and I am trying or will try them.
Thank you again. This is exactly the kind of constructive advice and criticism that I have been hoping to receive!
Your welcome. More specific situations are easier. I can see why you get flooded with emotions, most people would.
This is likely. Negotiation is often ongoing throughout the whole DS relationship, actually for me "negotiation" (including mild pressure to agree to something) is part of the fun.
You seem to be on track very reasonably now, good luck.
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Spork
Active member
Excellent progress in your thinking. Agree to be careful of passive aggressive stuff.
I think that you and your wife need to each reclaim some space to be PEOPLE in your marriage. Hard limits. Needs. Expectations. And then after that, there are things you would like...but are not hard requirements. Those you can take your time and work out.
I get a strong sense of internal conflict in your wife, that on the one hand she wants you to tell her what's what, step up and be the Dom she needs...and on the other there is the damage to her respect and/or trust of you that makes her feel like cutting you out and turning elsewhere to seek someone stronger.
I very strongly believe she would benefit from getting into the local BDSM community, not just play nights but (maybe MORE importantly) discussion groups and social stuff. She should meet some of the people and see how it is. Some guy across the country who wants her to send him pics and is willing to set up a few "rules"...yeah I don't know. He might be a good guy. He might just be taking advantage. But I think it might be good for her to see how some of the healthier D/s relationships in our community function. See the reality behind her fantasy.
I think that you and your wife need to each reclaim some space to be PEOPLE in your marriage. Hard limits. Needs. Expectations. And then after that, there are things you would like...but are not hard requirements. Those you can take your time and work out.
I get a strong sense of internal conflict in your wife, that on the one hand she wants you to tell her what's what, step up and be the Dom she needs...and on the other there is the damage to her respect and/or trust of you that makes her feel like cutting you out and turning elsewhere to seek someone stronger.
I very strongly believe she would benefit from getting into the local BDSM community, not just play nights but (maybe MORE importantly) discussion groups and social stuff. She should meet some of the people and see how it is. Some guy across the country who wants her to send him pics and is willing to set up a few "rules"...yeah I don't know. He might be a good guy. He might just be taking advantage. But I think it might be good for her to see how some of the healthier D/s relationships in our community function. See the reality behind her fantasy.
It was like getting hit by a lightening bolt. My experience on Saturday really opened my eyes and that helped.
I think that my wife is very conflicted. I can't disagree with your assessment. I really think that she needs and would love being involve with the community! I think there is a lot of merit to seeing the reality. IMO, most of the time the reality isn't as good as the fantasy but I think in this case the reality is so much better. That's because it is so warm and welcoming as well as being chill and intense at the same time!
Spork
Active member
It is, and I have to say we are BLESSED here in Colorado Springs (and Denver from what little I've seen--I'm very fond of the RACK Room up there) to have such a great community. I've actually heard horror stories from other cities. Communities too disproportionately populated by Doms or subs, places where predatory behavior thrives, and scenes that are pompous or skeevy. Here, most folks are pretty genuine, very positive, and on a sincere quest to be self aware and good to themselves and others. I was warned at first that there was "drama"...but I've seen very little of it, especially given just how many people are involved.
As to your wife and her Dom... Another bit of my own opinion here, and I respect the many who will differ, but I have a hard time trusting someone to the level that D/s requires when there's no chance to build an in-person rapport. I used to think, years ago, when I was making friends online in the first few years I had regular internet access, that knowing someone online was perhaps more genuine than in person because you weren't judging by looks but rather what's on the inside. It appealed to the more cerebral side of me. But since then, I've met a lot of those people in person...and I truly feel that you get a more complete knowledge of someone face-to-face. Sometimes people are completely different online and in the flesh even when they're not trying to be deceptive. There are 100 body language/nonverbal signals and cues and behaviors you can pick up on that you'll never see online.
The hell of NRE and desire
How am I supposed to feel when I hear, "could you blow off work so I can drive two hours for a hook-up"? How I am I supposed to feel when I am placed second to an online Dom and then find out that the rules of the D/s relationship will be skirted via a loophole so that the above mentioned hook-up can happen? How am I supposed to feel when I hear, "I don't remember the last time I was good and fucked" when the last time was less than a week ago and when it would have been even more recent if someone wasn't experiencing their "monthly visitor." Maybe TMI there.
I am so confused. I really made a breakthrough the other day. I realized that I was trying to make the whole situation about me. When I came to this realization, Open and honest communication began to flow. The walls came down, to an extent, and I was let in. But when is open and honest too much. Why would such a thing as "I can't remember the last time I was good and fucked" even be whispered. Especially when my insecurities have been so clearly stated?
It is not about me. It is about her. It is about her needs. But what about my needs? Why if she needs to be "good and fucked" and I am right there, ready and willing, am I not considered. Why have my past performances being not considered "good and fucked." I've changed my style. I've done exercises and taken steps to increase my stamina. Fucking NRE! Fucking desire! If it's not about me, why insinuate that I am inadequate! By doing so, it makes it about me and my shortcomings. Why am I being chastised for selfish thoughts when situations and off handed comments make me believe that I am not good enough. Maybe I should just be satisfied that I am the husband and that she will return to me. But if this is what it means to be the primary, if that position relegates me to just being the guy at home paying the bills and a sympathy fuck a couple times a month, then fuck that! If I am being told that I am doing nothing wrong, how come I am feel that I am not adequate! Show me that I am not doing anything wrong! Make me feel as if I am your primary! I really hate the way things are right now.
How am I supposed to feel when I hear, "could you blow off work so I can drive two hours for a hook-up"? How I am I supposed to feel when I am placed second to an online Dom and then find out that the rules of the D/s relationship will be skirted via a loophole so that the above mentioned hook-up can happen? How am I supposed to feel when I hear, "I don't remember the last time I was good and fucked" when the last time was less than a week ago and when it would have been even more recent if someone wasn't experiencing their "monthly visitor." Maybe TMI there.
I am so confused. I really made a breakthrough the other day. I realized that I was trying to make the whole situation about me. When I came to this realization, Open and honest communication began to flow. The walls came down, to an extent, and I was let in. But when is open and honest too much. Why would such a thing as "I can't remember the last time I was good and fucked" even be whispered. Especially when my insecurities have been so clearly stated?
It is not about me. It is about her. It is about her needs. But what about my needs? Why if she needs to be "good and fucked" and I am right there, ready and willing, am I not considered. Why have my past performances being not considered "good and fucked." I've changed my style. I've done exercises and taken steps to increase my stamina. Fucking NRE! Fucking desire! If it's not about me, why insinuate that I am inadequate! By doing so, it makes it about me and my shortcomings. Why am I being chastised for selfish thoughts when situations and off handed comments make me believe that I am not good enough. Maybe I should just be satisfied that I am the husband and that she will return to me. But if this is what it means to be the primary, if that position relegates me to just being the guy at home paying the bills and a sympathy fuck a couple times a month, then fuck that! If I am being told that I am doing nothing wrong, how come I am feel that I am not adequate! Show me that I am not doing anything wrong! Make me feel as if I am your primary! I really hate the way things are right now.
Seems she cannot appreciate you very much. I am sorry.
Skipping the rest of the vent just for a moment and holding to the facts (which we don't know now), would you tell us how this situation happened?
(Btw., already bending the rules? LOL, not unexpected it would happen, but a good joke two days in
)
Skipping the rest of the vent just for a moment and holding to the facts (which we don't know now), would you tell us how this situation happened?
(Btw., already bending the rules? LOL, not unexpected it would happen, but a good joke two days in
)
Spork
Active member
She is bending the rules because she's not seriously doing D/s. She is playing with fantasies. It isn't real, and he isn't real to her. And going up for that hookup, that's just a means for her to play in real life.
It is not her job to MAKE YOU FEEL anything.
Understand that. It's not. She has no obligation to be responsible for your feelings. Her emotions do not exist to placate your ego. Her desires don't either. If she doesn't want something (make you feel wanted) she isn't failing you, because she probably doesn't have a whole lot of control over wanting or not wanting you. She feels the way she feels as a result of however many years worth of life buildup that brought you two to where you are. You are hung up on WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG. Trying to keep score. Those aren't good signs.
I sent you a whole bunch of thoughts in PM, ideas on conversations you two can have and things you can do... however...
What I see bottom line is that you are clinging to your wife, and you are insecure. You may think that you cannot get anyone else to love you or that you cannot get anyone as good (pretty? the woman you fell in love with?) as her. Self doubt is there. So you cling. You have a lot of fear of what life without her would look like for you. You have emotional dependency.
These are things that you need to work on. This part IS about you. You've got to become a whole man. You do not have an incompleteness within that only she can fill. That's an illusion. And this insecurity and neediness makes her respect and want you less...and remember where I said that I felt like merely a mechanism for fulfillment of my ex's needs, and not a PERSON to him? Be careful. Being the focus of this kind of stuff feels dehumanizing. Even if you are trying to be as considerate as possible to her needs, it ends up feeling as though you are only doing that to get the results YOU want. Where is her space to be a person in that?
I would almost suggest that you find someone else to play with, maybe attend a swinger's night at the club if you can afford it (I know it costs more for men)...you need to shift some of that intensity off of her and take ownership of your own needs and stop placing all of that pressure on her I think. Also, the reality is...this marriage may or may not work out in the long run. You might not have a "happily ever after" with her. I think that one way or the other, you need the inner strength to KNOW that you can live without her, even if you never have to actually do it.
Oh dear, I wanted to wait a little with my opinion, until emotions settle down and something more rational comes out, but Spork is being quite harsh so perhaps I can comment too.
Your emotions are very human.
It is also true that your spouse is not responsible for meeting your needs. And you are probably somewhat clingy. But I don't know, I am not that perfect person not to depend on my partner's appreciation of me, and I think almost nobody is.
I'll try to break that post down a little.
Could take that as "False alarm, I am not being put second to him"
Lets take further the realization from you previous paragraph.
Her needs, feelings and desires are not about you.
She feels that way at the moment. Period. Doesn't even have to be she felt like it an hour ago.
I think she is falling for an emotional trap: You do not feel needs, that are fulfilled. That means, psychologically, you will always tend to feel, that what you do not have is more important then what you currently do have. The sister of this law is: The closer fulfilling of a need seems, the more you want it. (I read those in a really good book on breakups. It explains a lot.) Could knowledge of these laws help you understand?
I also think there is a "swinging pendulum law", but I don't have it as clearly formulated and backed up: The longer a need is not tended to, the stronger it comes out. I think this is also a huge component of NRE.
1) when it is done with no respect
2) when it is hurtful for no reason
I try to value openness even and especially if the things said are hard to process, because they carry information about problems with the relationship. However, there are good and bad ways to say things, and good and bad times. If I need to share some touchy subject, I would make sure that the partner is ready to listen (though when I think about, I failed at exactly this two days ago, haha)
BTW, I consider telling a partner that sex is not good one of the most difficult and most important things at the same time.
You call it. It is all about her and about her needs.
I actually do think she is emotionally blackmailing you with outbreaks like that, though she probably is in no easy place.
I am not sure who is the stronger in your relationship. You two do seem to be in a power struggle. I think she feels to be in the weaker position, else she could use more direct methods.
Once you have had enough of blackmail and drama, you could leave (or leave the room at least).
If you read behind her statement, she is missing something (she feels) you cannot provide.
You take it as being inadequate. ... but that is not what she sais. Neither is it her fault. There are men out there, who can take a woman's desire for better/different sex without believing they are inadequate.
Bitter pill to swallow: you worked on yourself, but she is still missing something. Well. It doesn't mean you are not "enough", nor does it mean your work was in vain.
Are you asking for things to do, instead of things not to do?
Look, if you tell her "don't meet this guy, because I feel inadequate when you want to have sex with him and not me", you are standing between her and her desire, which she obviously cannot control now.
You could tell her "I want sex with you too. Would you be willing to initiate more sex with me?" instead. Then you are making a specific request. If she is not willing to follow any positive requests, than you see she doesn't care.
Your emotions are very human.
It is also true that your spouse is not responsible for meeting your needs. And you are probably somewhat clingy. But I don't know, I am not that perfect person not to depend on my partner's appreciation of me, and I think almost nobody is.
I'll try to break that post down a little.
Bending the rules is only a sign that she respect their relationship very little. Perhaps she is not showing respect to you, but she is not showing respect to the one she !chose! as her "Dom" either.
Could take that as "False alarm, I am not being put second to him"
Congratulations. This is good, both in terms of your progress, and the communication between the two of you.
I am sorry this is hard to hear from her.
Lets take further the realization from you previous paragraph.
Her needs, feelings and desires are not about you.
She feels that way at the moment. Period. Doesn't even have to be she felt like it an hour ago.
I think she is falling for an emotional trap: You do not feel needs, that are fulfilled. That means, psychologically, you will always tend to feel, that what you do not have is more important then what you currently do have. The sister of this law is: The closer fulfilling of a need seems, the more you want it. (I read those in a really good book on breakups. It explains a lot.) Could knowledge of these laws help you understand?
I also think there is a "swinging pendulum law", but I don't have it as clearly formulated and backed up: The longer a need is not tended to, the stronger it comes out. I think this is also a huge component of NRE.
For me, open and honest is too much
1) when it is done with no respect
2) when it is hurtful for no reason
I try to value openness even and especially if the things said are hard to process, because they carry information about problems with the relationship. However, there are good and bad ways to say things, and good and bad times. If I need to share some touchy subject, I would make sure that the partner is ready to listen (though when I think about, I failed at exactly this two days ago, haha
)BTW, I consider telling a partner that sex is not good one of the most difficult and most important things at the same time.
Yeah. Fucking NRE.
You call it. It is all about her and about her needs.
I actually do think she is emotionally blackmailing you with outbreaks like that, though she probably is in no easy place.
I am not sure who is the stronger in your relationship. You two do seem to be in a power struggle. I think she feels to be in the weaker position, else she could use more direct methods.
Once you have had enough of blackmail and drama, you could leave (or leave the room at least
).Actually, she is not "insinuating, that you are inadequate". This is where Spork's comment comes in.
If you read behind her statement, she is missing something (she feels) you cannot provide.
You take it as being inadequate. ... but that is not what she sais. Neither is it her fault. There are men out there, who can take a woman's desire for better/different sex without believing they are inadequate.
Bitter pill to swallow: you worked on yourself, but she is still missing something. Well. It doesn't mean you are not "enough", nor does it mean your work was in vain.
Fair enough. Are you being specific in your requests? Are you asking for things she can do?
Are you asking for things to do, instead of things not to do?
Look, if you tell her "don't meet this guy, because I feel inadequate when you want to have sex with him and not me", you are standing between her and her desire, which she obviously cannot control now.
You could tell her "I want sex with you too. Would you be willing to initiate more sex with me?" instead. Then you are making a specific request. If she is not willing to follow any positive requests, than you see she doesn't care.
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Spork
Active member
Worth mentioning for other readers and posters to this thread:
OP and I have also spoken in PMs and one thing I've mentioned more than once...
I do (obviously) feel that there are some parallels with his situation and the marriage I just had go south and implode badly last year. Only I think (hope?) that his isn't past any point of no return as mine got to be.
What this means is that I am somewhat prone to dumping thoughts spoken directly from MY experience/perspective...and they may or may not be relevant to his situation. By no means can I speak with any certainty on behalf of his wife (or anyone.)
I encouraged, in PMs, the OP to use anything that resonates and please discard anything that doesn't. I find it much easier to tell him "this sort of similar thing was happening to me and this is how I processed it/felt/saw it" than I ever found it to speak frankly with my ex about these things when it might have done us some good.
I do think that sometimes when a man puts a woman on a pedastal, he does not realize (because his intentions seem good, from where he stands) that he may in fact be forcing her into a role that is hard to maintain, and making her feel undue pressure to be perfect. She knows she isn't perfect. But it's like she has to pretend she is, so as not to let him down. It's exhausting and it doesn't feel genuine, after a while. In a big way, him taking ownership of his own needs takes some of that pressure off.
Unless I'm wrong...and I could be wrong. I wouldn't know unless I spoke to the wife.
OP and I have also spoken in PMs and one thing I've mentioned more than once...
I do (obviously) feel that there are some parallels with his situation and the marriage I just had go south and implode badly last year. Only I think (hope?) that his isn't past any point of no return as mine got to be.
What this means is that I am somewhat prone to dumping thoughts spoken directly from MY experience/perspective...and they may or may not be relevant to his situation. By no means can I speak with any certainty on behalf of his wife (or anyone.)
I encouraged, in PMs, the OP to use anything that resonates and please discard anything that doesn't. I find it much easier to tell him "this sort of similar thing was happening to me and this is how I processed it/felt/saw it" than I ever found it to speak frankly with my ex about these things when it might have done us some good.
I do think that sometimes when a man puts a woman on a pedastal, he does not realize (because his intentions seem good, from where he stands) that he may in fact be forcing her into a role that is hard to maintain, and making her feel undue pressure to be perfect. She knows she isn't perfect. But it's like she has to pretend she is, so as not to let him down. It's exhausting and it doesn't feel genuine, after a while. In a big way, him taking ownership of his own needs takes some of that pressure off.
Unless I'm wrong...and I could be wrong. I wouldn't know unless I spoke to the wife.
Ok so I actually dozed off in my living room last night. She noticed that I wasn't in bed and came down and asked me to come to bed. As I was getting under the covers, barely half awake, she asked me if I could take the day off so she could go meet this guy. When I said no she made the good and fucked comment. My reply was, "I do." to which she said, "I didn't mean it like that." I'd like to know just how you mean a comment like that if you are not insinuating that the last time I did it, it wasn't good enough. But I'm calm now. I'm letting it go. Stepping back. I will be there when and if she falls.
You think of it as one scale.
bad sex ... good sex ... great sex
It is not. Hell, it is not one scale, it is an INFINITY of scales. It is "oooh what a great intercourse ... oooh what emotional connection ... oooh how passionate! ... oooh how caring this guy is ... oooh how I love his style to control me ..." These things are often contrary, they just cannot combine in one person. You please her one way, he does another. I only had three partners up to now, but each of them was good in something completely different.
P.S. Having a more accurate description of the situation, I take back my comments about emotional blackmail.
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Spork
Active member
Tinwen put it well. Another way to see it is maybe the two of you "make love"...and she wants to just get FUCKED. Like, taken, used, banged...FUCKED. Good and.
Problem is, she is likely in sub-frenzy, so she kinda thinks she knows what she wants, but it's possible that one of two things might happen if she actually goes for it. Either it won't be any good, and she'll wish she'd never gone there, or it WILL be good and she'll form an immediate and intense attachment to the fucker who's fuckin' her. Which can be problematic if he's not down for anything but a casual "wham, bam, thank ya ma'am." Might lead to hurts for her. She might have to learn the hard way that there are in fact reasons why it makes sense to take a minute and get to know somebody, and not just run out and scratch an itch. Not to mention that she is potentially putting herself (and you) at certain risks such as STDs (even mitigated somewhat by protection)....and while that doesn't tend to deter people from having recreational nookie, the question is, "is it worth it?"
Besides which, why Denver? I mean, if she's just looking for some casual, there are PLENTY of dudes here in the Springs who'd be down to throw her some strange, couples too. The Fetlife personals group is full of them. Not that I recommend this, but it does seem silly to go that far afield for something you could get easily here. Like going to Denver just to shop at Walmart or something, you know?
Changing thoughts
Tinwen and Spork,
You guys are great! Tinwen, I actually don't feel that Spork is being harsh on me. First, she's telling me things I need to hear. Second, there are a lot of PMs that she has also sent that go WAY more in depth. Your advice is equally well received and you refuse to coddle me just as Spork does. Its a lot easier to hear coming from you guys that it is coming from my wife, who has said many of the same thing over the years.
Spork, the fact that you have been in such a similar situation and lived through it gives me hope. The fact that you think that there is still something there for me to work towards, motivates me.
I have decided that it is time to step back, allow her to have her fun, and be there to catch her when and if she falls. If that means I am forced to become abstinent for a while, so be it. Four years away from home prepares one for such things!
On thing that you both point out and that I figured out myself, is that this is not about me. There are needs that I have that I would like her to fill. But the beauty of the lifestyle that I have chosen to live is that I can have those needs filled as I see fit.
Another thing. It has been pointed out that there is a lot of hard work to do. Its only been a week or so since I really, honestly started working. I can't expect results that quickly.
Spork, God willing, You will meet her before too long (and me too for that matter!).
I feel that I am making progress. It is clear they you tow do as well. That sort of validation has been missing from my life, personal and professional, for a long time. The fact that you both have stuck with me this week has been great and has really helped me open up to myself and to see things from a different perspective.
I feel on the verge of being able to change my life. That is empowering. Today, I wrote what I wrote. Tinwen got it exactly right. I was venting. But in my rant, I gave away my power. The power that I have over my own feelings. I am responsible for how I feel. No one else. This is the hard lesson that I need to constantly remind myself of. To constantly work on. And while I am taking responsibility for my own emotions, I should be grateful for the things that others give me, however great or small, that provide me with a little validation and respect. In the case of you guys, I am very grateful. In the case of my wife, I need to remember to be grateful for what I do get rather than angry or sad about what I don't.
Moving forward, I told my wife that I was grateful that she opened up and let me into her world, but that currently, I'm not ready for that. I can't be trusted to not try and turn her situation around and inject myself into it. So, I will relax, observe, give space, and support. At the same time, I, hopefully with a little help, will work on me. Happy Thursday evening everyone!
Tinwen and Spork,
You guys are great! Tinwen, I actually don't feel that Spork is being harsh on me. First, she's telling me things I need to hear. Second, there are a lot of PMs that she has also sent that go WAY more in depth. Your advice is equally well received and you refuse to coddle me just as Spork does. Its a lot easier to hear coming from you guys that it is coming from my wife, who has said many of the same thing over the years.
Spork, the fact that you have been in such a similar situation and lived through it gives me hope. The fact that you think that there is still something there for me to work towards, motivates me.
I have decided that it is time to step back, allow her to have her fun, and be there to catch her when and if she falls. If that means I am forced to become abstinent for a while, so be it. Four years away from home prepares one for such things!
On thing that you both point out and that I figured out myself, is that this is not about me. There are needs that I have that I would like her to fill. But the beauty of the lifestyle that I have chosen to live is that I can have those needs filled as I see fit.
Another thing. It has been pointed out that there is a lot of hard work to do. Its only been a week or so since I really, honestly started working. I can't expect results that quickly.
Spork, God willing, You will meet her before too long (and me too for that matter!).
I feel that I am making progress. It is clear they you tow do as well. That sort of validation has been missing from my life, personal and professional, for a long time. The fact that you both have stuck with me this week has been great and has really helped me open up to myself and to see things from a different perspective.
I feel on the verge of being able to change my life. That is empowering. Today, I wrote what I wrote. Tinwen got it exactly right. I was venting. But in my rant, I gave away my power. The power that I have over my own feelings. I am responsible for how I feel. No one else. This is the hard lesson that I need to constantly remind myself of. To constantly work on. And while I am taking responsibility for my own emotions, I should be grateful for the things that others give me, however great or small, that provide me with a little validation and respect. In the case of you guys, I am very grateful. In the case of my wife, I need to remember to be grateful for what I do get rather than angry or sad about what I don't.
Moving forward, I told my wife that I was grateful that she opened up and let me into her world, but that currently, I'm not ready for that. I can't be trusted to not try and turn her situation around and inject myself into it. So, I will relax, observe, give space, and support. At the same time, I, hopefully with a little help, will work on me. Happy Thursday evening everyone!
Spork
Active member
What I like is that you are both introspective AND seeking other opinions, not reacting defensively or making a bunch of excuses to justify things, and seem willing to look at stuff from different angles. I really do think that there's much more hope for you and your wife than there was for me and my ex, and I'm in your cheering section, yours and hers both really.
I think that while there are still angles to be explored, thoughts to be pondered, and no absolute guarantee it'll all work out, you're still avoiding some thought-traps I see a lot of people fall into.
So, when I see something that gives me a twinge or a reactive thought, I will share it. Again...maybe it helps, maybe it don't!
Right now I'd say to remember to be honest with yourself and not to martyr yourself. You're used to making sacrifices for the greater good or the good of others. It's noble, but when done too much in a relationship can lead to those built up explosions of hurt and resentment. You do own your emotions, and you do have the freedom to get your needs met, and while you love your wife so much that it's hard for you to consider looking elsewhere, you do have that option. Yes, time will be a challenge. It always is. I just still want to encourage you to find your inner strength, nurture it, by whatever means necessary, a strength built on self esteem and confidence, not just knowing how much suffering you can take. I don't mean to necessarily go on the pull and fiercely seek out another woman...but rather to continue going out into the world when you're able, do things that make you proud of yourself, and be open to what the universe may place in your path. Don't set up obstacles to your own happiness.
I have often thought that one of the hazards of monogamy that is hardest for me to deal with is that it places tremendous pressure on each partner in a pair to BE ALL THE THINGS that the other partner needs. Each either demanding everything they need, or going without. None of my poly quad was a natural sadist, and I needed that. One of the men, who is more accustomed to mono relationships and is definitely capable and willing of doing the things that a sadist might do...he wanted to fill that need for me. I asked him to please not try to change to become something that he wasn't. I did not want that. The fact is when it comes to some things, you either ARE or you AREN'T that thing. The Analyst can flog me, and it might feel great, but there is an energy exchange there with a Sadist who takes genuine fulfillment in the act, that one cannot make oneself do...it just is or isn't. It's in my Sadist's nature to be what he is. He needed me as much as I needed him, for this.
If you find yourself thinking that your wife would so easily be your everything, everything you could possibly need or want, if only she would behave differently, treat you better, love you more, NEED you as you do her...you're kind of barkin' up the wrong tree maybe, and might wind up having to consider other possibilities.
So...TL;DR version: Be honest with yourself. Don't be a martyr. Do things in life that make you proud of yourself and make you feel awesome. Keep an open mind.
HAPPY FRIDAY!!
I think that while there are still angles to be explored, thoughts to be pondered, and no absolute guarantee it'll all work out, you're still avoiding some thought-traps I see a lot of people fall into.
So, when I see something that gives me a twinge or a reactive thought, I will share it. Again...maybe it helps, maybe it don't!
Right now I'd say to remember to be honest with yourself and not to martyr yourself. You're used to making sacrifices for the greater good or the good of others. It's noble, but when done too much in a relationship can lead to those built up explosions of hurt and resentment. You do own your emotions, and you do have the freedom to get your needs met, and while you love your wife so much that it's hard for you to consider looking elsewhere, you do have that option. Yes, time will be a challenge. It always is. I just still want to encourage you to find your inner strength, nurture it, by whatever means necessary, a strength built on self esteem and confidence, not just knowing how much suffering you can take. I don't mean to necessarily go on the pull and fiercely seek out another woman...but rather to continue going out into the world when you're able, do things that make you proud of yourself, and be open to what the universe may place in your path. Don't set up obstacles to your own happiness.
I have often thought that one of the hazards of monogamy that is hardest for me to deal with is that it places tremendous pressure on each partner in a pair to BE ALL THE THINGS that the other partner needs. Each either demanding everything they need, or going without. None of my poly quad was a natural sadist, and I needed that. One of the men, who is more accustomed to mono relationships and is definitely capable and willing of doing the things that a sadist might do...he wanted to fill that need for me. I asked him to please not try to change to become something that he wasn't. I did not want that. The fact is when it comes to some things, you either ARE or you AREN'T that thing. The Analyst can flog me, and it might feel great, but there is an energy exchange there with a Sadist who takes genuine fulfillment in the act, that one cannot make oneself do...it just is or isn't. It's in my Sadist's nature to be what he is. He needed me as much as I needed him, for this.
If you find yourself thinking that your wife would so easily be your everything, everything you could possibly need or want, if only she would behave differently, treat you better, love you more, NEED you as you do her...you're kind of barkin' up the wrong tree maybe, and might wind up having to consider other possibilities.
So...TL;DR version: Be honest with yourself. Don't be a martyr. Do things in life that make you proud of yourself and make you feel awesome. Keep an open mind.
HAPPY FRIDAY!!