I think my secondary wants veto rights.

P

polyciraptor

New member
Hi!

New to this forum, not new to poly. I'm married and have been for several years, and have been for poly for over a decade.

I have a long-distance boyfriend who I love, but is not okay with me having sex with his friends.

I have had sex with one of his friends before - I did not know that they were anything more than acquaintances, and the friend did not know that I was in a relationship with the boyfriend. We did break up very briefly over this, a few years ago (for maybe 24 hours). I agreed not to have sex with anyone other than my husband and him in the boyfriend's flat, but I refused to agree to let my boyfriend have any say in who I have sex with.

Fast forward a few years, and I want to have sex with - or *think* about having sex with - a friend of his. I told him this, and it made him panic/freak out, and have doubts about us. (Or himself? Or me? I'm not sure.)

I have always had other partners. He has met all of them, and he knows how I met all of them (they were either friends, or I met them at a sex/kink event, or via the internet).

He has not had many relationships, and as far as I know, he has not had sex with anyone but me in years.

We had an argument the last time I saw him (about something that matters really a lot to me), and it made me have doubts about our relationship. It made me realise that when he's visiting me, I am cutting out or hiding parts of myself, because I'm worried that he will be critical or disgusted or uncomfortable about them.

There are topics I avoid. I don't mention things I like, because he can be very negative. And I don't like some of the things that are quite important to him. And there are things that are important to me, that I avoid doing, and events I don't go to, when he's around, because they would make him uncomfortable.

These include my kinks, my sexuality and sexual freedom, my queerness, my taste in music, my love of karaoke, actually quite a few things.

We are not polyfidelous, and never have been, and I have zero desire to ever do that.

I've been trying to find any similar situations, but everything I can find about vetoes is about primary couples vetoing a secondary, and that's not what's going on here.

I feel like I have to choose between my identity and sexual freedom and my own personal ethics and what I decide in the moment is a good or bad thing to do; and the relationship with him.

I feel like I can't have both. Or maybe I could try, but it'd just hurt him.

I feel like perhaps his dislike/feeling unsafe when/if I have sex with his friends comes from a weird place where his identity is wrapped up in the relationship with me, and being someone who fucks me, and other people he knows well don't. And I don't understand that. He's met plenty of my partners, over years. He's seen how different they are. *We* even started off as friends, for at least 6 months, before anything happened between us.

And I do fuck my friends. My friends are awesome. The whole reason I'm poly is so that I can pursue things that I and the other person want in the moment, instead of cutting that part of myself off, and being miserable.

The relationship started off as us being friends, then best friends/FWBs, then I moved away and we continued the relationship. Eventually I said I wanted him to be my boyfriend. And this is several years after that.

He was my best friend, and I wonder now if he met me for the first time tomorrow, if he would even like me, given how different our views on sex are.

Any advice for me? :/
 
End the relationship neither one of you will ever be happy in a relationship together.
 
Hi there,

It sounds like there is a lot of worrying and supposing and wondering why, but not many actual facts or explanations in your post. In all honesty, it sounds to me like you two just need to talk more so you can both get to the root of why he feels the way he does, and also for you to convey to him how this is making you feel like you are suppressing parts of yourself.

polyciraptor said:
We had an argument the last time I saw him (about something that matters really a lot to me), and it made me have doubts about our relationship. It made me realise that when he's visiting me, I am cutting out or hiding parts of myself, because I'm worried that he will be critical or disgusted or uncomfortable about them.

There are topics I avoid. I don't mention things I like, because he can be very negative. And I don't like some of the things that are quite important to him. And there are things that are important to me, that I avoid doing, and events I don't go to, when he's around, because they would make him uncomfortable.

These include my kinks, my sexuality and sexual freedom, my queerness, my taste in music, my love of karaoke, actually quite a few things.
Click to expand...

What do you mean when you describe his reaction as 'being negative'? Many couples have different kinks, and it's not a requirement to be super supportive of every life choice your partner makes. It sounds like you guys need to have a conversation about your boundaries here - you might be over-sharing stuff he simply doesn't want to know about, and vice versa. If he's going out of his way to make negative comments about your life choices that don't affect him, then that's something else. However, perhaps he does think that some of those things are affecting him. Either way, you'd be better off addressing it with him directly rather than just avoiding the topics entirely.

polyciraptor said:
I feel like I have to choose between my identity and sexual freedom and my own personal ethics and what I decide in the moment is a good or bad thing to do; and the relationship with him.

I feel like I can't have both. Or maybe I could try, but it'd just hurt him.
Click to expand...

Why not let him look after himself a bit here? Let him communicate his distress (if indeed, he feels any) rather than making the unilateral decision to be someone you're not. I guarantee it will be a lot more productive in the long run if you can help him to verbalise to you the things that he finds uncomfortable, and for you to listen and really work with him to overcome it, than for you to make this self-sacrificing move that he's not even asking you for.

polyciraptor said:
I feel like perhaps his dislike/feeling unsafe when/if I have sex with his friends comes from a weird place where his identity is wrapped up in the relationship with me, and being someone who fucks me, and other people he knows well don't. And I don't understand that.
Click to expand...

Then you need to ask him to explain it to you so you CAN understand. Many many people have what GalaGirl on this forum calls a 'messy list' - a list of people who, for whatever reason, you would prefer your partner not to become sexually involved with. I do. My partner does. For instance, immediate family members, our respective bosses or close work companions, our last shared lover who caused us both a lot of heartache. To my mind, your boyfriend not wanting you to fuck his close friends is potentially quite a reasonable request. When you hook up with a friend of his, you are adding a dimension to HIS interaction with HIS friend that he didn't ask for - you are imposing a metamour relationship on them - and it seems quite plausible to me that that could be unsettling and unpleasant at times. He might fear being put in a position of being torn between the pair of you, having to act as middle man to resolve conflicts. Or perhaps you (or the friend) are in the habit of leaving chaotic trails of romantic destruction behind that he's reluctant to mop up. Maybe being long-distance and all, he struggles with jealousy and can only handle that if you are spending time with someone he doesn't already have a connection to. I'm just speculating here, but I urge you to just talk to him and find out what it is.
 
Hi polyciraptor,

It seems to me that you have three choices:

  • Accept the restrictions your boyfriend imposes on you,
  • Negotiate with your boyfriend for fewer restrictions,
  • Break up with your boyfriend.
If your boyfriend can't lift any restrictions, and breaking up isn't an option for you, then maybe it's best to accept him as he is. Oh, there is a fourth option. Stay with your boyfriend and suffer in (resentful) silence part of the time, argue part of the time (about the restrictions), and just keep going like that until death do you part. I don't recommend that option, but there's a lot of people who try to live that way.

I think the option I'd recommend most is negotiating with him. For the communication value alone, it might be worth it.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I am sorry you struggle.

You talk a lot about having to shrink yourself to be with him. To me it sounds like you have grown apart. That is one issue.

The other issue is his "messy people" list and whether or not you feel like respecting that. To me it sounds like you don't want to.

I have a long-distance boyfriend who I love, but is not okay with me having sex with his friends.
Click to expand...

If this is his current boundary? Could accept his friends are on his "messy people" list. It's too weird for him if you choose them for lovers. Maybe he just wants his friends to be his friends and not also his metamours.

Just like his parents or his boss are probably are probably on his "messy people" list -- you being their lover would set up a weird dynamic for him and for what? There's enough people in the world to date without picking out the "messy" ones. Maybe he wants his parents to just be his parents, and not also his metamours. Maybe he wants his boss to just be his boss and not also his metamour.

He's made you aware of it bugging him. You could respect his boundary and choose not to share sex with his friends. Just yours.

Or you could choose to break up with him. Then you don't have to respect the boundary because he is not your BF any more. Taking him and his boundaries into consideration before you act no longer applies.

Could keep this a lot simpler on yourself. Either you feel like

1) keep shrinking yourself, keep dating him, and keep respecting his boundaries

or

2) Stop shrinking yourself, break up with him because you have grown apart, and don't take his boundaries into consideration any more.

Galagirl
 
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Why on earth would you insist on sleeping with your boyfriend's friends? There's plenty of other "fish in the sea." My boyfriend asked me not to sleep with his coworkers (not that I was planning to) and I asked him not to sleep with my good friends. My reasoning is, my friends are my support system, and if things go wrong between me and my partner, and I'm hurting, I need to be able to gather my support system around me without any awkwardness or worrying about where loyalties lie. Also, if my relationship with my partner ends and I need to untangle our lives, and he's in a relationship with one of my good friends, it will make untangling all the more difficult.

As for the rest of the stuff you hide from your boyfriend--your kinks, your love of karaoke (If loving 'roake is wrong, I don't want to be right!!!!) that's a whole other issue, and I wouldn't tolerate it in a partner.
 
polyciraptor said:
There are topics I avoid. I don't mention things I like, because he can be very negative. And I don't like some of the things that are quite important to him. And there are things that are important to me, that I avoid doing, and events I don't go to, when he's around, because they would make him uncomfortable.

These include my kinks, my sexuality and sexual freedom, my queerness, my taste in music, my love of karaoke, actually quite a few things.
Click to expand...

LoveBunny said:
As for the rest of the stuff you hide from your boyfriend--your kinks, your love of karaoke (If loving 'roake is wrong, I don't want to be right!!!!) that's a whole other issue, and I wouldn't tolerate it in a partner.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can understand if someone feels awkward about sexual topics, but why the hack would you hide your taste of music or love for karaoke? Ok, he doesn't like the same, so you don't have music to listen to together, and that's a nuisance, but if you go to karaoke he needn't come with you, and there is absolutely no reason why you should hide your love for anything in the world.
As for the sexual things, if you need him to open up more, help him ease into it. Small steps. You don't have to make him participate, but you can help him accept this part of you. Just don't hide it is important to you.
 
polyciraptor said:
I have a long-distance boyfriend who I love, but is not okay with me having sex with his friends.

I agreed not to have sex with anyone other than my husband and him in the boyfriend's flat, but I refused to agree to let my boyfriend have any say in who I have sex with.

Fast forward... I want to have sex with - or *think* about having sex with - a friend of his. I told him this, and it made him panic/freak out, and have doubts about us. (Or himself? Or me? I'm not sure.)

We had an argument the last time I saw him (about something that matters really a lot to me), and it made me have doubts about our relationship.
Click to expand...
I find this interesting. Something that was really important to you. Your not having sex with his friends is really important to him, but I feel that there's an underlying sentiment in your post that he's putting you in a box with what's important to him. Yet you two had an argument about what's really important to you, so clearly he feels apprehension about that, whatever it is.

Adult relationships involve give and take. They involve sometimes giving up what we'd like for the good of the other person. Somebody else's desire, wishes, and comfort level are not always about 'controlling' us (a charge I often see), but about what they want out of life and relationships, too.

I feel like I have to choose between my identity and sexual freedom and my own personal ethics and what I decide in the moment is a good or bad thing to do; and the relationship with him.

I feel like I can't have both. Or maybe I could try, but it'd just hurt him.
Click to expand...
Nobody gets to have everything. We all have to make choices.


I feel like perhaps his dislike/feeling unsafe when/if I have sex with his friends comes from a weird place where his identity is.....
Click to expand...

I don't know him, of course. Maybe you're right. But there seems to be a common tendency to decide that if someone doesn't like X, they must have a character flaw. It's not that unusual to not want your girlfriend/boyfriend to sleep with your friends. I think there's some wisdom to it, just as with not sleeping with co-workers. Breakups, especially in poly, are common. Sex produces strong emotions for most people. Sleeping with his friends is NOT the same as sleeping with people he doesn't otherwise know or have any investment in. There is great potential for things to get really messy, if you and his friend break up, if you and he break up, for other reasons, when you sleep with his friends.

I'm with the previous poster who asks, why is it absolutely necessary that you sleep with his friends? Honestly, adults understand that there are limits in life, and wiser choices.

My advice is do this guy a favor and leave him alone. Break up with him. You seem to want everything your way and have an issue with him having any feelings or wants of his own.

In relationships, sorry, but there are two people involved, and if they want to stay together, they do get some say, in some fashion, in each other's lives, because your lives now affect each other.

He wants a relationship in which his girlfriend is NOT sleeping with his friends, and he's quite within his rights to want that. You two are not a match, and I doubt you're ever going to be.
 
147

Thanks for all the replies!

Over the last week, I was trying to get other people's opinions about what their "messy list" is, and what boundaries they have, in a sort of vaguely similar situation.

And all kinds of things are reasonable restrictions, depending on the people involved.

I'll try to talk with him about things - tell him how I feel about things, and that I don't think I can do what he's asking.

I think, as several commenters have said, that I have three options:
1. break up as it's not going to work
2. stay together and he tries to accept this stuff he may have a lot of problems with
3. stay together and I try to accept the limitations.

And option 3 isn't something I want to do.

A few things:

Me and him both have some anxiety about a few things, generally social situations. I don't have much anxiety about sex, although I used to. In my opinion, he has a lot of anxiety about sex - not the sex itself, but pretty much everything around it, including discussing it. And I *like* talking about sex. (I don't mean TMI stuff, I mean "how does that work", "what are the statistics on that", "do you think in that film the type of sex they were having was supposed to mean a specific thing", "what is the appeal of X kink, huh, interesting", "how can we get more rights and respect for sex workers" etc.)

The negativity is something that I think has always been there. If I mention something I like, he'll be all "Oh I don't like karaoke, I think it sounds awful, and it would make me really uncomfortable to be around that". And in the past, he came to karaoke nights with me (for my birthday). And I told him to stop coming to them, because his hate for the whole event made me have a pretty bad time.

Other stuff is like me talking about one of my favourite authors, and how they're making a tv series about one of my favourite books by him - and he starts talking about how much he hates the author's wife. What?? We weren't talking about that! I'm barely even aware of the author's wife! I really don't care about her! Why would you change the subject to discuss something you loathe?? It just feels like there's this whole load of vitriolic poison just coming out of nowhere. And it happens with really everyday things. It gets me down.

At the time when I had sex with his friend in the past, I did not know she was on his "messy list". But even if I had known - the circumstances around the situation meant that I probably would have had sex with her anyway. (I would have told him though - which is actually what happened, but he didn't understand because I didn't put it as bluntly as I could have. I said something like "she's going to stay the night with me in this bed" instead of "maybe we will fuck or something if we both seem up for that".) She was someone that I wanted to pursue a relationship with. She and him aren't friends anymore, directly because of that. He stopped talking to her.

As for kinks, I understand that not everyone is into what I'm into. But not being able to discuss things because the other person thinks you're disgusting - or the kinks are - is not something I can cope with in a partner. Freaky, unsafe, totally unappealing - all fine. "Disgusting", no. My boyfriend is straight, and I'm bi or pan. Clearly there are going to be areas I find appealing, that he doesn't.

I had a couple of dysfunctional relationships in the past, and they made me desperately unhappy.

One was with a person who I loved, but everything I said made them mad. If I was happy, she was mad because she wasn't. If I wanted to do something, she wanted to come with me - but wouldn't, because she couldn't leave the house within 5 hours; or she'd be mad at me for going without her. She didn't want to be pressured into sex; but she couldn't tell when I was in the mood, because I just assumed I wouldn't be getting sex around her, because she was usually in a bad or sad mood, or busy with a million different things, in addition to not liking to feel pressured. And it was *awful*. I spent a weekend with her, and I realised that I just couldn't be alone with her and stay sane. Holding my tongue constantly, watching every word, it hurts. I don't want to do that for *anyone*. Not even my husband gets to tell me what to say. (He is free however to tell me why I am a jerk, why he disagrees, or that I worded something extremely poorly.) I had a kind of breakdown a few years back because I was hiding so much of myself so much of the time, that I couldn't make friendships. I was so scared of my secrets getting out. The way I overcame that was by being out, and open, in pretty much every situation. (I'm out to family and friends about being poly and bi.)

Re: his messy list, I don't think I'm really going to "get it". There are a whole bunch of people/situations where I'm just never going to go there, because it's not worth it. But friends aren't on there. And they aren't on there for any of my other partners, past or present. I don't really have a problem with an incestuous network. I understand that some people do; but if the people are good people, and relatively self-aware, with good intentions, I don't get what the issue is.

I'm not in the habit of leaving any kind of chaotic destruction behind. There are breakups, and they're sad, but they're pretty drama-free. (Maybe not for a week or so while they're in progress, but after that things settle and there's no drama. Anyone who isn't a - close - partner of mine/theirs would not be aware that any of it was happening at all, unless I/they told them about it.)

>
He's made you aware of it bugging him. You could respect his boundary and choose not to share sex with his friends. Just yours.

...But I *am* only having sex with my friends. There just happens to be an overlap between my friends and his, sometimes. So far, about one and half times in about 8 years!

I don't really have separate friends who are "mine" or "someone else's". If they're my friends, they're my friends. I want to introduce them to other cool people I think they'd get on with. I want to introduce my partners to each other because I love them and I hope I can hang out with them together. Maybe hang out together sometimes, I mean. Most metamour relationships aren't going beyond being polite and being friendly to each other.

> As for the sexual things, if you need him to open up more, help him ease into it. Small steps. You don't have to make him participate, but you can help him accept this part of you. Just don't hide it is important to you.

Oh, trust me, I've tried. I'm pretty open about this kind of thing. He isn't. And while he has taken baby steps, and that's great! - in the time-frame we're talking, it isn't much change. In other areas of his life, he is very stuck in a rut, and has been since even before we met. (He has even said this himself.)

I feel like the conflict between what I want to do - go to sex parties, dungeons, kink play, etc - and his intense discomfort about all that, makes things hard. I am not asking him to go *with me*, I am just trying to talk about important things that happened in my life. And I feel like every time I bring them up, he insists on telling me, again, that he hates that, and would feel very uncomfortable doing that/being there. And that's fine. But he's told me that a million times. That's not why I'm mentioning it. I'm giving him background context for this thing that happened at the weekend, and why I had such a good time - or how I felt about something that went wrong. And he latches on to the bad things.

> there seems to be a common tendency to decide that if someone doesn't like X, they must have a character flaw. It's not that unusual to not want your girlfriend/boyfriend to sleep with your friends.

Well, I don't think it's a character flaw. But I think it is probably a compatibility issue, for me.

I'm not demi-sexual, but there are significant reasons on a par with that for why I strongly prefer to sleep with friends. (I would prefer not to go into detail - please take it as read that it isn't something that I *can* change, and it's not something I particularly *want* to change either.)

> There is great potential for things to get really messy, if you and his friend break up, if you and he break up, for other reasons, when you sleep with his friends.

Well, that's fair enough. It hasn't happened yet, but I've slept with a few people he knows. (It was only an issue with the one friend in the past.) He's friends with one of my exes.

I don't discard partners/people I've had sex with in a broken trail behind me, but I take your point.

Thank you all again for all of your comments!

I'll talk to him in the next couple of days, and keep you posted.

Noooot looking forwards to the conversation, but okay. There are two possible options, from my point of view.
 
You are not up for 3, so I don't bother posting it.

I think 2 was incomplete, so I offer it up again in case it brings you more clarity.

Your options are...

1. break up as it's not going to work

2. stay together. In doing so...
  • he tries to accept this stuff he may have a lot of problems with
    • I *like* talking about sex.
    • My communication style can be vague ("she's going to stay the night with me in this bed" instead of "maybe we will fuck or something if we both seem up for that".)
    • I don't get his messy list and I'm not willing to respect it. I don't want to limit myself.


  • I try to accept this stuff I may have a lot of problems with
    • he does NOT like talking about sex
    • his communication style in general leans toward the negative and can bring me down
    • Not being able to discuss things with him because he thinks I am disgusting - or the kinks are - this is not something I can cope with in a partner.
    • His not liking stuff I like or at least tolerating me talking about stuff I like -- it is probably a compatibility issue, for me.

To me? It sounds like you guys ALREADY do #2, and are frustrated.

So better breaking it off. You guys just don't sound like you have much in common. And since his friends are also your friends and he doesn't want his GF sleeping with his friends?

Seems easier to NOT be his GF. Then his GF isn't sleeping with his friends.

Just be his friend, and then it's his friends sleeping together and nothing to do with him.

Galagirl
 
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So, I spoke with him yesterday!

It was tough, but it was a very positive conversation. A lot of the assumptions we had about each other turned out to be nonsense.

He said that the sex with friends thing wasn't an ultimatum, but it was a thing that he knew he would have problems with, and he couldn't just switch off his feelings. And I said that I understood, but it wasn't a rule I could agree to, as I don't make promises unless I'm absolutely sure I will not be tempted to break them.

I talked about the negativity, my sexuality, and the seeming disgust, and a few other things.

He told me that for him, the main thing was that I took him for granted, and if we wanted to continue, I needed to make more time for him.

We're going to talk again soon, and I need to tell him whether I can/will make that time for him, or not.

I've been thinking about the relationship, and how I love him and about all the good memories I have about us. But I don't think I can make more time for him without selling myself short in other areas of my life - and the thing is, I *do* take him for granted. We've been together so long. He's just had scraps of my attention for something like 6 years, when I left the country. (Before that I spent time with him once a week, often twice a week, and we were best friends who had a sexual relationship. We both helped the other through some difficult things, like family members in hospital, social isolation, general support and love.)

I feel more positive about him, and us, than I have in a long time.

But at the same time, I don't feel as passionately/strongly about him as I used to. I still love him, but it isn't in the same way, and I don't seem to want the same things as I did when I asked him to be my boyfriend years ago. (We had been FWBs for several years before that.) I hadn't really realised how my feelings had changed.

It's a long-distance, not-very-committed relationship, and while it's okay, neither of us really gets what we want out of it. I think that it's time to let it go, while we still feel positively about each other, instead of trying to make compromises that neither of us really wants indefinitely, and we grow to resent each other.

I'm going to think about it for another day or so, but even the fact that I'm thinking *this* instead of "Fuck yes let's stay together you're awesome! I would love to make more time for you!" makes me feel like I've already come to the correct decision. He deserves to be in a relationship where the other person is excited to be with him. Me being with him means that only really very secure poly people could ever be interested in him.

I would like to have him in my life in some way in the future in any case, but we will see what actually happens.
 
Glad you had a productive discussion with him, and were able to come to some forward-moving decisions.
 
polyciraptor said:
. . . I don't feel as passionately/strongly about him as I used to. I still love him, but it isn't in the same way, and I don't seem to want the same things as I did when I asked him to be my boyfriend years ago . . .

I hadn't really realised how my feelings had changed.

. . . He deserves to be in a relationship where the other person is excited to be with him.
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This all sounds like you've experienced some real clarity in looking at your situation! Your conclusion (or near-conclusion) appears to me to be very smart and compassionate towards both of you. I hope your next conversation with him goes well. I am sure that seeing everything so clearly will enable you to reach a place that feels right for both of you.
 
An update:

I spoke to him again yesterday, and told him that I couldn't give him more time, and that I thought we should break up.

He was angry and sad, and he hung up on me a few minutes later.

I feel bad, but I don't think that I did the wrong thing.

I feel sad, and that I lost a friend (he's blocked me on social media, and I get the idea that he is posting things about feeling betrayed/being angry, from a mutual friend), and I will miss him. But... love is not enough. If I had met him for the first time yesterday, he wouldn't fit my partner selection criteria.

I feel guilty and bad, but I also feel relief, and that it was the right thing.

I've never broken up with anyone before, but I've seen some truly horrible drawn-out festering things, or where one person held out hope forever, so I did what I could to avoid those. He said I was cold and callous, and that I didn't really love him, and that I had lied to him. And that hurt - but I don't think any of that is unusual with this kind of breakup.

I asked some friends to go out last night (to take my mind off things), and we did, and they were supportive, and we had a good time.

I think I'll feel bad for a while, and given how long we'd been together, I just imagined the relationship would continue indefinitely. So there are some adjustments to make. And being back in my hometown will probably be sad.

But I'll be okay, and he has a good social network, so I think he will be too.
 
He's hurting right now, and probably will need some time to heal. Same for you.

FWIW, I think you did the right thing in being honest that you cannot give him the time he wants and that you prefer to break up.

Galagirl
 
Hi polyciraptor, I agree with GalaGirl, I think you did the right thing. Hang in there.
 
He gave you an ultimatum. He should have planned for the case where you rejected it ( and him)
 
Sometimes people are incompatible in important fields. He was frustrated with you doing what you wanted. You experienced that a compromise only served as to limit your love for him. The best thing to do is to break it off.
 
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