Disentangling "non-monogamy as inherent inclination" from "unmet needs"

[aussiekate]

Disentangling "non-monogamy as inherent inclination" from "unmet needs"

I'm a 45 years old woman, currently having spent 24 years monogamous, and desperately wanting to experience sex with other men. My husband is not at all happy about this, and we recently (a few weeks ago) began seeing a poly-friendly counsellor.

The particular issue I'd like to discuss in this thread is that counselling has identified that I do have some unmet needs, as an individual (due to past illness), and due to some relationship issues.

My husband is now convinced that my desire for sex with other men is my way of trying to satisfy these unmet needs, and that if I'm just patient and spend time - which could be six months to a year - working on satisfying those needs by working on our relationship and myself, that my desire for sex with other men might go away.

I'm quite convinced - having been wanting and asking for this for about 6 years now - that I'm non-monogamous by inclination; that it's more like a sexual orientation than a chosen behaviour.

Whilst I'm confident that I have the self-discipline to choose to delay gratifying my needs for another six months or a year, it feels unfair, given that I've been begging my husband to go to counselling for years, and he refused until very recently. He says "isn't it a small price to pay for securing our marriage?"

But I'm unconvinced that it will change - I feel it will just mean that I spend another six months or a year having my needs unmet. And he freely acknowledges that he's been stubborn in refusing to go to counselling, and that he's neglected my needs for a long time and taken me for granted, and is profusely apologetic for doing so. If I were confident that it my needs were going to be met by waiting, then of course it would be a small price to pay for saving my marriage, and I'd happily pay it.

What say you?

Is it more likely that my desires are simply a chosen behaviour for satisfying unmet needs, or are they more like an orientation that I've uncovered as I shed social conditioning?

 

[GalaGirl]

To me? If I already clocked 6 years (72 mos) what's another 6 months? Not really a biggie to me. The years go by so fast as it is!

If I have invested in marriage counseling, I am there to work that show. So I would want to see a full SWOT analysis of the situation. Then problem solve. ID the sore spots, then make a plan for each issue that needs addressing. That collection of plans is a strategy.

THEN decide if I want to invest in knocking out that plan with him or not.

Right now you guys are just at the "ID what is missing" place. You are not done with getting the lay of the land. You may have to invest some time to get that full lay of the land before you invest time in working the plan.

You sound like you are jumping to worrying about how much time you will invest in working the plan where there isn't even a plan to invest in yet. Don't jump the gun.

If I were confident that it my needs were going to be met by waiting, then of course it would be a small price to pay for saving my marriage, and I'd happily pay it.

That sounds like you want to save the marriage.

You cannot know the future ahead of time. You CAN pay the minimal price of admission (a few weeks or months?) getting the full lay of the land and THEN check how confident you are that you and hubby can work that plan together.

If it were me? I would want to see a more concrete plan made with the counselor for behaviors done/not done. What am I investing IN?

Initial investment (like seed money):

• Spend X time getting the lay of the land.

Investment:

• Immediately you will get _____ behaviors from him. He will get ___ behaviors from you.
• In 3 mos, you will get ____. He will get ___.
• In 6 mos, you will get ____. He will get ___.
• Mini checkpoints along the way with counselor.

Major checkpoint at 6 mos. Did the plan address all areas after all? Does the plan need tweaks? Do we want to renew for another 6 mos because it wasn't all there but really close? If renewing...

• In 9 mos, you will get ____. He will get ___.
• In 12 mos you will get ____. He will get ___.
• Mini checkpoints along the way with counselor.

Major checkpoint at THIS point in time.​

I suggest you might want to clarify a more "concrete plan" with him and counselor. Investing more time to get more of same behaviors from him? Not so hot an investment. But neither do you want to turn a blind eye to honest efforts made. You guys need to figure out a plan and how you will measure progress. THEN you might have more hope or confidence that your investment might actually yield something new.

You might also want to separate (him not meeting your PAST requests) from (you choosing to meet his CURRENT request that you clock 6 mos working on the marriage if you want to help save it.)

I get that you are grumpy about feeling ignored in the past. You have to make peace with that. Identify what needs to happen for you to be willing to do that. He has apologized. What does he have to do in order to make amends? Is he working THAT additional plan now or does that also need definition?

Why should you put in the work to meet his current request? Because you seem want to give the marriage a fair shot. Don't NOT hold up your end of the marriage stick in the present time just because he bungled holding his end in the recent past. The marriage needs both partners participating.

• He messed up by checking out in the recent past. That is not two people participating/working on the marriage.
• You getting humphy over it and checking out now? That is not two people participating/working on the marriage.

Unless you just want to end the marriage. In which case just end it then. Why bother with the counseling?

I think you could get clearer on what you want for the marriage. This isn't a fence sitter.

If you both want to save it? Then work it like you both want to save it. Make a plan of attack that has behaviors for him to do, behaviors for you to do, a time frame to do it in, and measurable progress check points built in so you are staying on track and not getting distracted.

Tweaks along the way can happen, of course, but you have to have some plan or map. Not just be stabbing in the dark.

You just have to decide how much more time you want to invest and what the progress markers will be so that you can SEE the changes and you can stay willing to KEEP ON investing.

Measurable behaviors for him to do. Measurable behaviors for you to do.

Galagirl

 

[aussiekate]

You just have to decide how much more time you want to invest and what the progress markers will be so that you can SEE the changes and you can stay willing to KEEP ON investing.

Measurable behaviors for him to do. Measurable behaviors for you to do.

Thanks for providing the objective outside perspective I was seeking.

I do want to save the marriage; I don't want to check out because I'm shitty.

What I don't want:

• for him to have (what I consider to be) false hope that he can just make my feelings go away by "being enough" and fixing things now, and therefore that if I still have these desires in 6 months that he's somehow "failed", or that I'm still resenting him for not having tried enough. I might just still have these desires because... I just have these desires anyway, irrespective of whatever work we do.

• for him to not even work at trying to come to grips with non-monogamy during this 6 months based on the aforementioned above (what I consider to be) false hope

I guess those are good points to raise at our next counselling session.

 

[GalaGirl]

This reads unclear to me.

What I don't want:

• for him to have (what I consider to be) false hope that he can just make my feelings go away by "being enough" and fixing things now, and therefore that if I still have these desires in 6 months that he's somehow "failed", or that I'm still resenting him for not having tried enough. I might just still have these desires because... I just have these desires anyway, irrespective of whatever work we do.
  
• for him to not even work at trying to come to grips with non-monogamy during this 6 months based on the aforementioned above (what I consider to be) false hope

Why are you trying to manage his thoughts and feelings for him?

• You don't want him to cultivate false hope...
• You don't want him to think he "failed"...
• You don't want him to think you are resenting him...

Don't his feelings and thoughts belong to HIM? Aren't they his jobs to be doing?

Let him do his own stuff. If he cultivates false hopes? That's for him to deal with isn't it?

In the past have you been responsible for doing his emotional management for him? If so, you might want to talk about that in counseling. Get more clear on these:

• my stuff, that only I do
• his stuff that only he does
• our stuff, that both of us share in tending
• not our stuff, neither does anything about it

In counseling, you might want to focus on what behaviors you DO want. Period. In short, clear sentences.

Rather than framing things in terms of what (you don't want him to not do) like that second bullet. That double negative thing is confusing.

I would have phrased all the above like this instead. I quote just to visually block it off. Note that I do not talk about feelings I want him to have. I talk about BEHAVIORS I want him to DO.

I am willing to create a counseling plan to work on issues with him and our counselor.

I am willing to spend 6 months working that plan so long as he does these things in counseling:

• I want him to acknowledge in counseling that (my feelings belong to me. My emotional management is my job.) I acknowledge this.

• I want him to acknowledge in counseling that (his feelings belong to him. His emotional management is his job.) I acknowledge this.

• I want him to agree in counseling that he will do the work required of him with open mind and open heart. I agree to do same.

• I want him to be willing to accept that it may turn out that I just have these desires irrespective of whatever marriage work we do. I accept this is a possibility.

• If I still have desires for Open marriage, I agree to give him my honest answer at the end of this current plan.

• I want him to agree that at the end of this counseling plan he will honestly tell me if he's willing and able to Open.
  • To help him figure that out? I want him to agree in counseling that he will be responsible for doing his own introspection work in that area in individual counseling all along.

• If at the end of this counseling plan both want to Open? We agree to make a new counseling plan to help us Open well.
  
• If at the end of this counseling plan both want to Close? We agree to make a new counseling plan to help us be Closed better than before.
  
• If at the end of this counseling plan it is a mismatch? One wants one thing and the other wants another thing? We choose a new path.
  • He agrees to be Open in Mind to hearing about my poly thoughts and feelings so I can at least express myself and not have parts of me hidden. I agree to be Closed in practice. We try to find middle ground that way.
  • We accept we are not longer compatible. He does not want to be Open in Mind and hear about my poly thoughts and feelings. Or I do not want to be Closed in practice. We agree to divorce in an amicable way as quickly as possible so we both move on to the healing space and not drag out a break up.

That way instead of trying to manage his feelings and thoughts for him, you are getting on with behaviors that you can measure. He either does them or not. You either do them or not. And you just go down the list and sort it out.

If he's not wanting to agree in counseling to play ball? Just skip on down to the last toggle. Accept you are no longer compatible and disband. FEELS hard to do, but I think the behaviors are straight forward.

I am hoping you guys are able to work something out. You sound like you both are trying hard.

Galagirl

 

[aussiekate]

Yes, I totally do all his emotional management for him, because he doesn't do this thing at all. In fact, the counsellor identified this at the very first session. It's just taking some time to sink in.

What you've written is brilliant, and I thank you most sincerely, my new bestest friend ever. Mwah!

 

[Tinwen]

My first thought on the original post was, that you likely have both: unmet needs in the marriage and a wish for non-monogamy. That means both need work, and it is certainly a good idea (I'd say a necessary condition) to work on your marriage (first), if you want to open up. Besides, the opening up process will probably also take half a year at least before you both understand each other and can feel safe to start any outside relationships. Take this year as preparation time, and - perhaps you can work on both at once?
(Or in two phases as Galagirl suggests.)

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it helped some.

With this?

Yes, I totally do all his emotional management for him, because he doesn't do this thing at all.

Glad your counselor, you, and your husband see this from day one. I hope your counseling plan does address that whole "my stuff, your stuff, our stuff, not our stuff" thing.

You could get ok with you NOT doing his emotional management for him. Say "No, thank you. That is your stuff to do. Not my stuff to do" if he brings it to you to do. You focus on breaking YOUR bad habit of reinforcing his perceived helplessness.

Let him focus on breaking HIS bad habit in his own way. Expect him to have "learning space" though and be prepared to put up with reasonable learning mess and not lift a finger even if you know you could do it in 5 min with one arm tied behind your back. Point him to counselor. It's the counselor's job to teach him how to do better emotional management, NOT yours.

If his feelings were clothes? And he's never dealt with packing and unpacking his own luggage? You always did all the luggage packing and unpacking? Yours and his?

He needs time to learn how many clothes to pack, learn what size luggage is reasonable, learn HOW to pack the clothes so they don't wrinkle and shampoo doesn't spill, learn what is worth taking on the trip and what's better left at home, learn how to unpack and do laundry before it stinks to high heaven, and so on.

Take the long sighted view and let him get on with it with the counselor's help. You just accept that it is not longer your job to pack his luggage and it isn't your job to teach him how to pack and unpack. It's counselor's job.

If he gets frustrated while learning, validate. "I see that you are frustrated. I'm sorry. Take a break and then keep trying. Ask for help at your next counseling session." And that's is all. Leave it alone. Don't start packing it for him!

Galagirl

 

[Sentinel]

There are lots of ways to live. Some of them give more opportunity for you to find value in your life. If polyamory is one of those things for you and it matters enough to risk your marriage, then go for it. I did. It was the most painful thing I've ever been through and my marriage very nearly did breakup.

I'm going to incur ire, I think, for this, but I don't think there's a lot of mileage to be had in asking 'am I really poly'. It's a choice. The LGBTIQ community ran the line pretty hard that people were just born with certain sexual preference, and it made sense politically at one point when many in the community saw it as an abomination, but it's far more beautiful to recognise it as a choice.

It's supposed to be hard making choice about the meaning you want your life to have. Jean-Paul Sartre spoke of it as nausea. You sound like a really nice person and you're not alone in this.

 

[aussiekate]

My first thought on the original post was, that you likely have both: unmet needs in the marriage and a wish for non-monogamy. That means both need work, and it is certainly a good idea (I'd say a necessary condition) to work on your marriage (first), if you want to open up. Besides, the opening up process will probably also take half a year at least before you both understand each other and can feel safe to start any outside relationships. Take this year as preparation time, and - perhaps you can work on both at once?

Good advice, albeit not what I want to hear.

I have been in counselling - on and off - all along, and I feel it's unfair that I have to wait longer because he's been dragging the chain.

After six years of putting off my needs and begging him to help me out by working towards an open relationship, it's only now that I'm at the point where my unmet needs are really, really causing me distress - i.e. I'm horny AF for somebody new - that he's panicked and now willing to do something. It feels grossly unfair that I now have to wait what seems an interminably longer time.

But I get that that's just me having a whine and life's not fair and I have to put on my big girl panties and deal with it. (So pardon me and thank you for allowing me the space to have that whine. )

You could get ok with you NOT doing his emotional management for him. Say "No, thank you. That is your stuff to do. Not my stuff to do" if he brings it to you to do. You focus on breaking YOUR bad habit of reinforcing his perceived helplessness.

This is definitely going to take some work! Our relationship has always worked this way, and I wasn't even aware of it until recently, and am still not fully aware of the extent of it. Definitely a worthwhile goal. Thanks so much for your valuable input.

I showed my husband what you wrote about the counseling plan, which I thought was brilliant, and we had a big... "discussion" about why there isn't a goal in there of "making me monogamous again". And about how it's unfair why the whole focus is on changing him, when he wants things to just go back to how they were. I find that so hard to respond to. The things I said, that didn't seem to make too much of an impression on him, were:

• The goals include that I am going to work on my stuff with an open mind and open heart, which includes focusing on identifying and figuring out ways to meet my unmet needs. It may transpire that I have unmet needs that can be filled via means other than sex with other men and it may turn out, in fact, that I'm not actually non-monogamous - that this was just the way I thought I could meet my needs. I acknowledged that at this point this seems unlikely, but I also acknowledged that my unmet needs are so frantic that I'm not thinking very clearly at the moment, but would do my utmost to move through therapy with aforementioned open mind and heart. (I've had my hormones tested and nothing amiss.)
• You working on jealousy and insecurity is worthwhile work whether we decide to open or not; it doesn't mean that opening the relationship is a foregone conclusion.
• Desiring non-monogamy isn't something I consider inherently wrong and thus eliminating that desire isn't a valuable goal to me; whether I choose to express that desire in my behaviour is something we still have a long way to go before deciding and I can't make any commitment on that yet.
• You wanting me to behave monogamously seeks to control my behaviour; my wanting to have sex with other men doesn't seek to impose any limits on your behaviour, therefore your wanting me to be monogamous is inherently more changeworthy.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am going to write to you about two things.

How this "discussion" went down. And then WHAT you said in it. Ok?

FWIW? How I see it go down?

1) You resonated with what I wrote. You wanted to share it with him immediately rather than wait and run it by in counseling. You basically whooshed on him.

2) Now that he is overloaded with this stuff? He wasn't expecting this? He may feel ambushed with new data, AND he's not great at dealing with overwhelming emotions to begin with. Result? He does his own whoosh back.

He complains how unfair this is and how much work this is and wishing it could back like before because that was easier on him. Fair enough. He's expressing how he's feeling. It IS unfair to ambush him with stuff outside of counseling.

3) His whooshing back seemed to trigger your whole "unfair I've been waiting so long" thing. AND this triggers you whole "do his emotional management for him" thing. Result? You do a NEW whoosh. Escalating rather that de-escalating. You do a combo move.

A) You trying to do his emotional management for him (i.e.: controlling his feelings for him) when he is trying to simply express what he feels in the moment. While complaining how he's trying to control YOU with monogamy. How's that playing fair?

B) You getting the megahump because you got your "Argh! I've been waiting so long and still no understanding from!" thing triggered again. While overlooking that you provoked his whoosh by ambushing. Pick your timing better if you are seeking understanding.​

I know you are eager to get going, but play FAIR. Only in counseling. Not outside of it. And only one thing a time. Hold your horses!

There's a reason why I wrote it the way I did.

"I want him to agree in COUNSELING"....​

So you guys are NOT talking about it outside of counseling at this time. Still too fresh. And you guys are missing some critical skills.

You write blocks of text with big 50 cent words. Is that also how you talk in real life?

No offense, but he doesn't have the crayons to deal with that detailed of a picture in one go at this time. Sep if he easily gets overwhelmed by his own emotions. You need to dial it down to a volume he CAN understand. If you cannot keep it dialed down? Add that to you list for YOUR individual counseling.

If you two HAD the communication skills to have these conversations outside of counseling already? You wouldn't be in counseling and it wouldn't have taken THIS LONG for him to digest this idea:

"Just because I'm happy here, doesn't mean it's automatically happy for everyone. It doesn't mean WE are happy here. I have to check in on my wife sometimes to make sure she's still happy and doing ok. "​

You guys may appreciate your life out of counseling to be as normal as possible and not always "processing things" or "on edge." You contain all the hard work stuff to done during appointments. Then you know when it is and can go in RESTED and ready to work.

Then he's not getting ambushed at any time. He can feel safe enough.

And you know you aren't going to be blown off again -- you know it will be addressed in counseling. You can feel heard enough.

You guys are going to have to figure out how to pull like a team.

Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

I showed my husband what you wrote about the counseling plan, which I thought was brilliant, and we had a big... "discussion" about why there isn't a goal in there of "making me monogamous again".

You were not able to point to

"If at the end of this counseling plan both want to Close? We agree to make a new counseling plan to help us be Closed better than before. "​

as a place he could look at?

And about how it's unfair why the whole focus is on changing him, when he wants things to just go back to how they were. I find that so hard to respond to.

You were not able to listen to him express his feelings and leave it there? Just validate/reflect back some? Like...

"I see that this idea that excited me doesn't excite you and seems unfair. It's just an idea you know. I figured we could collect some ideas each and talk it over for real in counseling. I know not all the ideas will be winners. I'm sorry if how I brought it up just threw you for a loop. I may have jumped the gun in my own excitement and ambushed you."​

He's grieving. Let him grieve. Even if you guys build a NEW relationship together after all this counseling?

The old way of going is definitely gone. Allow him some time and space to mourn that. You have had 6 years to let that idea go. He hasn't.

The things I said, that didn't seem to make too much of an impression on him...

Of course not. Cannot be doing "logic stuff" with a person who is emotionally upset. They cannot hear you. They are busy being upset. Are you aware of that?

It is like... Once you have filled a bucket to capacity? Pouring MORE water in won't help the bucket grow bigger so it can hold more. It's just does not go in.

I already mentioned before that your communication could be more short and sweet. All this stuff?

The goals include that I am going to work on my stuff with an open mind and open heart, which includes focusing on identifying and figuring out ways to meet my unmet needs. It may transpire that I have unmet needs that can be filled via means other than sex with other men and it may turn out, in fact, that I'm not actually non-monogamous - that this was just the way I thought I could meet my needs. I acknowledged that at this point this seems unlikely, but I also acknowledged that my unmet needs are so frantic that I'm not thinking very clearly at the moment, but would do my utmost to move through therapy with aforementioned open mind and heart. (I've had my hormones tested and nothing amiss.)
You working on jealousy and insecurity is worthwhile work whether we decide to open or not; it doesn't mean that opening the relationship is a foregone conclusion.
Desiring non-monogamy isn't something I consider inherently wrong and thus eliminating that desire isn't a valuable goal to me; whether I choose to express that desire in my behaviour is something we still have a long way to go before deciding and I can't make any commitment on that yet.
You wanting me to behave monogamously seeks to control my behaviour; my wanting to have sex with other men doesn't seek to impose any limits on your behaviour, therefore your wanting me to be monogamous is inherently more changeworthy.

Comes down to this to me.

• I am going to work on my stuff with an open mind and open heart.
• I hope you work on yours the same way.
• I hope we can work something out.

Could have left it there short and sweet.

All the rest was TMI for the moment. Like this...

Desiring non-monogamy isn't something I consider inherently wrong and thus eliminating that desire isn't a valuable goal to me; whether I choose to express that desire in my behaviour is something we still have a long way to go before deciding and I can't make any commitment on that yet.

Hon, if it is still along way off why even bother bringing it up at this time? Work on your timing better. All you do is stir his anxiety pot when you go whooshing back. If the goal is for him to do better emotional management himself? Stop adding extra to his load that doesn't need to be added right now.

You wanting me to behave monogamously seeks to control my behaviour;

It can't just be him expressing the relationship shape he likes best? He's allowed to like monogamy best. That he wishes both were monogamous again because this all feels hard to him right now? Fair enough for him to feel that way right now.

You do not have to agree. You do not have to share those feelings. His feelings belong to HIM. Don't take them on board for yourself and then start "defending" with this big laundry list of your stuff. This moment wasn't about you.

Part of him owning his feelings and expressing them more is you not stealing the microphone from him when he's expressing and turning it into the YOU show. Play fair.

You feeling controlled by monogamy, is not him controlling you. Besides, you could dump counseling and dump him now if you wanted to. You are NOT being controlled.

It's like you want to argue about stuff that isn't even a issue yet. Jumping the gun. What are you afraid of?

In the big picture? He's going to counseling like you wanted. You guys will either work it out. Or not. There's a light at the end of your tunnel. So from your end of things? Things are better than before.

Right?
Galagirl

 

[aussiekate]

You resonated with what I wrote. You wanted to share it with him immediately rather than wait and run it by in counseling.

I'd be happy to do that. He has this thing where if I don't share every conversation I'm having that I'm "violating his trust and not sharing". He has started monitoring my social media, particularly my private messaging, which is also a conversation we've been having in counselling. Our counsellor thinks his monitoring of me is unhealthy. I'm trying to be transparent. Perhaps I'm being overly transparent.

His whooshing back seemed to trigger your whole "unfair I've been waiting so long" thing.

Nah, I just said this here in response to Tinwen. We didn't have this conversation again.

You write blocks of text with big 50 cent words. Is that also how you talk in real life?

Yes, probably. I don't know how else to talk.

You need to dial it down to a volume he CAN understand. If you cannot keep it dialed down? Add that to you list for YOUR individual counseling.

I've done NVC training. When I put that into practice, things seem to go pretty well. It's sticking to it in the heat of the moment that's hard.

You contain all the hard work stuff to done during appointments. Then you know when it is and can go in RESTED and ready to work.

Then he's not getting ambushed at any time. He can feel safe enough.

I would love this. He is the one who's constantly raising things outside counselling, and I showed him your post in response to him raising something yet again. I ask him repeatedly: "We don't have the skills to discuss this ourselves, let's write it down to address in counselling." (And we do turn up to each week's counselling session with a list of questions.)

Yet he constantly brings things up and wants them resolved.

I - albeit mistakenly - thought last night when he brought up something again - that I could show him your plan and that he would see that "here is a framework for answering all the things you're asking me, and we will address all those concerns", and that that would give him the comfort to put off all his questions for counselling. But clearly it didn't work.

You were not able to point to

"If at the end of this counseling plan both want to Close? We agree to make a new counseling plan to help us be Closed better than before. "​

as a place he could look at?

Yes, I did point to exactly that, I just overlooked mentioning it.

You were not able to listen to him express his feelings and leave it there? Just validate/reflect back some? Like...

"I see that this idea that excited me doesn't excite you and seems unfair. It's just an idea you know. I figured we could collect some ideas each and talk it over for real in counseling. I know not all the ideas will be winners."​

Why are you doing "logic stuff" with a person who is emotionally upset? They cannot hear you. Are you aware of that?

I am increasingly aware that this is definitely a skill I need to work on. I'm a problem-solver by inclination. (Occupational hazard, too.)

Thanks again for your input, I sincerely appreciate it.

 

[GalaGirl]

We were cross posting. Sorry about that.

He has this thing where if I don't share every conversation I'm having that I'm "violating his trust and not sharing".

HIS thing. Not yours.

He gives (his trust) or does not.

You give (you sharing stuff) or not.

Everyone needs reasonable privacy. Not because you are doing anything shady, but because that's part of being healthy individuals. He doesn't hang around watching you poop, right? He doesn't need to see that. Just like he doesn't need to know every little convo you have all day long. He might WANT you to tell, but he doesn't NEED it.

What doom does he think is going to happen if he doesn't know every little detail? That's HIS stuff to work on in his individual counseling.

YOUR stuff is to stop being so transparent and OVER sharing that it goes to unhealthy spaces. Do you not know where the healthy line is? That is YOUR stuff to work on counseling.

He is the one who's constantly raising things outside counseling, and I showed him your post in response to him raising something yet again.

Ah, he provoked you. Thank you for clarifying.

Well... he raises things. So what? That is his behavior. When he does behaviors you don't have to do anything.

Like a toaster. He waves the bread? The toaster does not toast. He claps? The toaster does not toast. He shouts at it? The toaster does not does. He tells it to vacuum? The toaster does not vac. All the toaster can do is make some toast. But only if the toaster is plugged in and the operator puts the bread in the slots and then pushes down the button. Not plugged? If he puts in bread with no button? Guess what? That's right. No toast. Just cold bread sitting in the slots.

He pushed your button. You responded by showing him posts. That was YOUR behavior. Decide you don't vac any more. You only toast. Then stick to the same behavior at all times -- like write it down to talk about in counseling. Or do nothing but reflect. "I hear you. You are concerned about _____. Got it." He can do his own writing down.

Basically what I am saying is... Resist the urge to leap up to "fix it" -- whatever it is. Allow him to learn how to fix it himself. Work yourself OUT of the job.

I know this time is yucky for him. But counseling cannot go faster than it can go! That's just life!

Glad to hear you have taken NVC. If you feel hotheaded? Say so.

“I feel overwhelmed right now. I need to take a time out. I will get back to you when I feel better."​

If you are NOT hotheaded right then? You could say

“Thank you for making me aware. I will write that down for counseling.”​

Then don't talk about it til counseling. Model the new behavior you want HIM to do.

If he cannot wait til counseling? Be ok letting him feel yucky so he comes up with a new way to solve his feeling yucky himself. He has to exercise his own coping tools or else he will never grow any:

• He could move his individual counseling appointment up.
• He could talk to a friend.
• He could write about it in his journal.
• He could go for a walk.
• He could bake a cake to pass the time.

But you have to STOP doing his emotional management for him on autopilot. If he comes and ASKS you for advice? "I am trying to cope with my yucky feelings of ___. I already tried walking the dog. I can't think of anything. Do you have ideas?" Then you might give him a suggestion or two. Like "You could Google."

But stop doing it automatically. He actually has to ASK first. He has to actually put the bread in and push the button before toast comes out.

Don't be like a "magic random dispensing" toaster all the time. You (demonstrating super coping skills) is not (him learning coping skills.)

Yet he constantly brings things up and wants them resolved.

I - albeit mistakenly - thought last night when he brought up something again - that I could show him your plan and that he would see that "here is a framework for answering all the things you're asking me, and we will address all those concerns", and that that would give him the comfort to put off all his questions for counselling. But clearly it didn't work.

There you could apply the rest of NVC. The "I wonder if..." stuff.

"I see you keeping bringing things up. I suggest we write it down for counseling but that doesn't seem to meet the need. I wonder if you need something else like reassuring? Or connection? Could you be willing to point and tell me what you need right now?"

Then show him the need inventory and have him point to his top thing or his top 3 things. He has to put the bread in and push the button before you make toast.

I think the best thing you can do right now is just live normal life so he eventually sees that normal life time is STILL normal life. Nothing doom is happening.

Counseling stuff is in counseling. Normal life is normal life.

Galagirl

 

[Tinwen]

Galagirl, thank you for posting in this thread, this is what I need as well. I could take that stuff nearly word for word and apply to my opening-up "discussions" in the recent (and the two years away) past.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi aussiekate,

It's really up to you to decide whether nonmonogamy is a choice or an orientation for you. If it's an orientation with a sliding scale, you could be halfway up the scale so that you are 50% monogamous and 50% polyamorous. This would mean you could adapt equally well to either relationship model. But I think your perception of yourself is more that you are 75% polyamorous ... or 90%, or 99%, or 100%. In other words, monogamy will tend to make you unhappy; perhaps you even feel that it's guaranteed to make you very unhappy. Ultimately only you can make that determination.

Me personally, I guess I'm flexible about how I see polyamory/nonmonogamy. It can be an orientation or a choice -- depending on the context and who is talking about it. It can even be both choice and orientation -- again depending on context and on who is talking. I accept all of those possibilities, and I take a lot of stock in the context. It's like the word love. It can mean so many things. To some people love is a feeling. To others it is a course of action. To still others perhaps it is both. And so on. Love is just a word; it's up to the people conversing what it means.

As to whether polyamory is a hardwired orientation in the same way homosexuality is considered to be a hardwired orientation: I don't know. I doubt anyone really knows. All we can really know is what we want *right now* and decide what if anything we'll try to do about that. Whether we can justify our actions by our genetic makeup is kind of an academic exercise. Me personally, I think everything is hardwired; I don't believe in free will. But that's rather off-topic for me to even mention.

Your husband wants you to give him six to twelve months of "attempting to make monogamy work" before turning to nonmonogamy for sure. My advice would be to give him those six to twelve months. After that, it's his problem if he continues to get his hopes up or thinks, "If only I did the right things, she would turn back to monogamy." Like GalaGirl said those are his thoughts and thus his responsibility. You're doing him a favor by giving him those six to twelve months, but I say, take the higher road and do him the favor.

I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[aussiekate]

Thanks for your thoughts, Kevin T.

 

[kdt26417]

My pleasure.

 

[Ravenscroft]

Firstly, you could stop using the term unmet needs every ~30 words. While YOU may know what you mean, you've made no effort to explain. And the frequency strongly suggests a trigger intended to draw uncritical sympathy.

And, of course, saying what you intend to MEAN by the term will help as well.

Over the years, I've remained very critical of the book Open Marriage, NOT because it's particularly terrible, but because its message has been badly misinterpreted (with more than a little help from the O'Neills, who quickly figured out that their notoriety was a money-maker). That message is that people will benefit, as couples & as individuals, if they learn to stand back from pernicious joined-at-the-hip couple-front thinking, where they believe they need to always be together AS A UNIT rather than have their OWN individual friendships, interests, activities, alone-time, etc.

This patently DID NOT apply to sex outside the marriage. In fact, before becoming drunk with fame, the O'Neills were very blunt about this. (A few years later, Robert Rimmer commented that there were two distinct sets of O'Neills: the magazine couple who backed away from sexual openness, & the TV couple who encouraged it.)

I think you're likely making the same error, so let me spin around in some conjecture. Let's say that you want to explore yourself, & you know in your heart that intimate exchange with others is a great way of doing this -- certainly no argument from me. But, while sex CAN be a shortcut to generalised intimacy, it can also stunt or replace or even short-circuit the chances for significant intimacy by other routes (intellectual, emotional, sensual).

You could try swinging. Or take a massage class -- giving & receiving massage does wonderful things on multiple levels. Or join a Naturist/nudist group.

I like Ramey's Intimate Friendships for taking into account the more-than-sex connections in an intimate network. Worth reading, if you can locate a copy.

You've clearly made up your mind that you've waited long enough dammit. Please remain aware that this can easily lead you to leap at some seriously unwise opportunities.

 

[Tri46guy]

I’m gonna preface this with the fact that I’m pretty clueless and just figuring out poly, so not giving any advice, cause I don’t think I’m qualified.

But, I can share my experience and you can apply caveat emptor - you can decide if it's applicable to your situation or not.

I’ve always been interested in non-monogamy because I love women in all shapes and sizes and I love variety. My wife humored me over the years with some threesomes and a little swinging. She was never really interested in other men though, which worked out pretty well. But that changed recently after 23 years of monogamy with me. Her sex drive shot up. She met a guy who was married and poly. She asked if she could date him. I gulped, but thought I should say yes cause she hadn’t asked for anything in 23 years and had given me a lot. I said yes but then very shortly after that it became clear I wasn’t really prepared to deal with it.

My wife was willing to take a timeout and give me a chance to work and learn as we started seeing a poly-friendly counselor. Through that experience, I have learned a shitload. I didn’t realize I was insecure, I felt pretty confident. Well I got an education. I had to ‘deal with my shit’ though I really didn’t know what that meant. I head to break down stupid defensive walls in my head that were making me be dishonest with myself and her and had to face my biggest fears on the other side. But once broken down, the fears weren’t as bad as I thought. The truth has set me free… mostly. At least now I’m way more secure and confident. I can deal with her having sex with other men while swinging or with her hooking up when she travels. Still working on being ok with the idea of other emotional relationships… but she’s still working on being ok with that with me too. So we are on the edge of that. But the fact that she gave me time to figure out my insecurities and work through them is something I greatly appreciate that I think has benefited us both.

Before we saw a counselor, I thought I was a good communicator. Well I got an education. I realized I sucked. When she would talk about something emotional, I would interrupt, get angry and attack her. If she wanted to tell me about a problem she was having, I’d interrupt and give her advice. After working a lot with the counselor, I now can do a reasonably good job of listening and not interrupting. If I start to have a strong reaction, I can looking inside and figure out what’s being triggered that’s underneath and then bring it to surface and talk about it with her and deal with it. When she brings me a problem, I know to listen, empathize and ask her questions rather than giving advice. Those communication skills have been really valuable for swinging. I’m pretty sure if we start poly relationships that those skills will make a big difference to continuing our marriage.

That’s my experience. I’m grateful to my wife for letting me work and learn with the counselor. I know a lot of guys resist counseling though. I hear it over and over. Best I can say is any guy who says its only for women, is that they don’t have a clue. You gotta have balls (or ovaries) to do counseling. Its the most brave thing I think I’ve ever done. Its like going to the gym for your emotions.

I wish you the best on your journey.

 

[WhatHappened]

You talk a lot about 'unmet needs.'

I personally think the word 'needs' is way over-used these days. We 'need' food, water, air, social interaction. We need shelter, clothing, a purpose in life, hope, things to look forward to.

Variety in sexual partners, new sex positions, or bigger orgasms are not needs, but desires. They may be very strong desires, but they are still that, not needs.

Are you willing to hurt your husband and possibly end your marriage to get not what you 'need' but what you want?