The end or just a phase?..distraught..pls help

My ex-husband constantly told me I was trying to manipulate or blackmail him if I said "I'm having a problem with this and it's upsetting me, we need to talk." (He also frequently told me and others that I wouldn't have any problems if I took meds for "being crazy"... there are many reasons he's my ex.) I often didn't even sound angry when I spoke, and was trying to be calm and constructive, but would be accused of "yelling" at him and picking fights to "upset" him.

It took me a very long time with Hubby to trust that I could actually say to him, "Here's a problem we need to fix together." Sometimes I still have that problem with him, because there have been ups and downs in our marriage, and during the downs he either doesn't want to hear about the problems, or he says he'll work on them and then doesn't. But most of the time, if I get angry and ranty, he ignores me or tells me to speak to him when I've calmed down (assuming I don't say up front "I'm feeling angry and ranty, and I need to go calm down before we talk), and if I approach him calmly, he's more than willing to work with me. By his own admission he doesn't like to work, but he'd rather work on problems than lose me.

One of the good things S2 did with me was help me manage my anger when there was an issue between us. And when I say "help me", I just mean that he was consistently calm, willing to listen, and willing to either problem-solve with me or listen to my suggestions to solve the problems. He claimed he wasn't good at "relationshippy stuff", but, like Hubby, he wanted to do the work rather than lose me. Even after he'd essentially decided the relationship was over, he was still willing to work on problems between us.

And Woody... working on problems with Woody is mostly easy. All I have to say is "There's a problem," and he says "Tell me what the problem is and let's fix it." Even though he and I have communication issues that sometimes lead to one or both of us getting frustrated, he wants to stick with it and work with me to solve things. (The communication issues are partly a matter of both of us having "I know what I mean, why don't you" syndrome, a/k/a we sometimes don't give the other full information because it doesn't occur to us that it needs to be spoken; and partly that he tends to use words I take negatively to mean something different, such as saying "jealous" when he means "envious" or even just "kinda bummed about not having that.")

With both Hubby and Woody--and with S2 when he was a factor--it's a lot easier to manage my temper, because all three of them have very calm, mellow personalities and don't get angry easily. (The only time I remember seeing S2 angry was with someone else who'd hurt me.) But because of my baggage about trying to communicate problems, I sometimes get frustrated and/or anxious about not being able to say what I mean, or about them getting angry if I phrase things long or take too long to explain.

That, I think, is where the being authentic comes in. Hubby and Woody know I have anxiety. They know about the baggage from my first marriage and, before that, from having parents and a grandmother who accused me of lying if I phrased things wrong, or refused to listen or yelled at me if I took too long to explain something. So if I start feeling frustrated or anxious during a discussion, I don't hide it. I don't lash out; that's where the managing my temper comes in. But at those times, I'm likely to start crying and to raise my voice, and I'll say, "I'm getting really frustrated because I feel like you aren't listening" or "because I can't get the right words out and it's pissing me off."

I'm being authentic because I am acknowledging to myself and them how I feel and how I'm acting, but I'm doing it in a harmless, constructive way because I've learned how to verbalize the emotion and what's causing it. Sometimes that derails the discussion, because we have to navigate through whatever's frustrating me before we can get back to the original issue, but it still works.

(There are also times, though very few, when I lose my temper, and physically lash out--in my bedroom, at my pillow or my mattress or my stuffed wolf that Hubby bought me for this purpose. I can hold my temper long enough to get to a place away from whichever guy I'm talking to so I can beat the shit out of an inanimate object, because at those times the loss of temper is often being caused by a piece of baggage from the past, and I respond like a toddler throwing a tantrum. Which is also authentic, and which I own and acknowledge as not a good thing, but at least I do so without hurting anyone else.)
 
If you want passion back in your marriage, then pony up and become passionate with your husband. Quit waiting around for him to do all the devouring, look how well that's working out for you {...} You say you miss the sex all the time, but you're obviously not horny enough to jump his bones right there in the shower, even though he was aroused. So how much of this is your own true desire, and how much is pressure you're putting on yourself according to what you think your marriage "should" be like?

Ever heard of responsive desire? some of us really don't feel horny UNLESS and UNTIL our partner expresses interest, so initiating sex flat out doesn't work. Being that sort of person and having a partner caught up in NRE with someone else? really is kind of awful.
 
Ever heard of responsive desire? some of us really don't feel horny UNLESS and UNTIL our partner expresses interest, so initiating sex flat out doesn't work. Being that sort of person and having a partner caught up in NRE with someone else? really is kind of awful.
That may be true for some. However, in this case, the OP did initiate sex by joining her husband in the shower and doing things to make him hard. Then she left and waited for him on the bed, and proceeded to get pissy and physically aggressive when he didn't fuck her after he got out of the shower. So, it would seem that some of us are simply encouraging her to finish what she started and/or take the initiative rather than complaining and lashing out. It's all very well and good to have a preference or fantasy that your partner always be the one to initiate sex, but it isn't very realistic to expect that and bitch about it when one is not expressing truthfully what one wants. Then you're simply setting up your loved one to fail, and for yourself to be disappointed and an angry martyr.
 
Ever heard of responsive desire? some of us really don't feel horny UNLESS and UNTIL our partner expresses interest, so initiating sex flat out doesn't work. Being that sort of person and having a partner caught up in NRE with someone else? really is kind of awful.

I have. It's how I experience desire myself, which was confusing for a very long time because I thought I just had a "low sex drive" and even identified as asexual, then I met this guy who was crazy into me and always coming on to me, and that made me crazy horny and it was so confusing because intellectually I was like "But I'm not into sex!"

The thing is, if you have a responsive sex drive, you don't get to complain that your partner isn't coming on to you enough. Could very well be that at that point in the marriage, her husband has acquired a responsive sex drive as well, either in response to too much rejection or else just as a natural matter of course. Or could be he's just sick of always having to be the one to initiate, and that's valid too. Bottom line being that the person who's complaining that there isn't enough sex is the person who's responsible for initiating more sex.

I don't get why that's so complicated for some people, they won't just ask for what they want because they expect their partners to be mind readers, to be perfectly considerate and always coming up with romantic things and such... I mean sure it's nice if your partner does that, but if they don't volunteer, just ask them. Most people are happy to do nice things for their partner, it just may not occur to them to do it spontaneously. So you can sit around and wallow in self-pity that your partner isn't coming up with all these things, or you can do something about it. Guess which one works better?

Myself, having a responsive sex drive, I have learned that if I feel like we "need" to have sex more because of whatever bullshit society has planted in my brain, then I just start doing sexy time stuff even when I'm not especially horny at the moment, and that gets both of us in the mood. In other words, a responsive sex drive is also responsive to you initiating sex even when you don't feel like it. But most of the time my intellect rises above that and I realize, hey if neither of us is horny and actually feeling like we want sex, then why initiate sex just because society has some dictate about how often married people "should" fuck?

lol... sometimes to me, sex is like a chore... like, you know you have to clean the kitchen, you don't really want to, but you hate that the kitchen is dirty. So you start cleaning and part way through you realize, hey this isn't even that bad, what's the big deal? And then eventually the kitchen is clean and you're glad you did it.
 
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The thing is, if you have a responsive sex drive, you don't get to complain that your partner isn't coming on to you enough. Could very well be that at that point in the marriage, her husband has acquired a responsive sex drive as well, either in response to too much rejection or else just as a natural matter of course. Or could be he's just sick of always having to be the one to initiate, and that's valid too. Bottom line being that the person who's complaining that there isn't enough sex is the person who's responsible for initiating more sex.

I don't get why that's so complicated for some people, they won't just ask for what they want because they expect their partners to be mind readers, to be perfectly considerate and always coming up with romantic things and such...

Myself, having a responsive sex drive, I have learned that if I feel like we "need" to have sex more because of whatever bullshit society has planted in my brain, then I just start doing sexy time stuff even when I'm not especially horny at the moment, and that gets both of us in the mood. In other words, a responsive sex drive is also responsive to you initiating sex even when you don't feel like it. But most of the time my intellect rises above that and I realize, hey if neither of us is horny and actually feeling like we want sex, then why initiate sex just because society has some dictate about how often married people "should" fuck?

Well, in my case the reason I don't initiate is because yes, I could do so before actually being "horny", per se, and it'd probably work (to some degree I think you're right about my husband having acquired his own responsive sex drive over the years, or rather that being what he was all along except as a 16 year old there's no such thing, LOL). The problem doing so brings out a HELL of a lot of insecurities and actually makes it so I can't respond to whatever desire I bring up - because it doesn't feel *real*, it feels like he's only having sex with me because I asked.

And no, it's not about societal stuff, it's about sex being how I connect, how I feel appreciated, etc etc etc. It may not really be that I have a responsive sex drive in the technical sense - I don't know, your "I don't really want sex" doesn't match with how I think of it. On my side it's more "I want sex intellectually, and if I go long enough without it the results for mood and relationships aren't great", but if I do anything about it the resulting sex is unsatisfying somehow *because* I had to ask for it...
 
On my side it's more "I want sex intellectually, and if I go long enough without it the results for mood and relationships aren't great", but if I do anything about it the resulting sex is unsatisfying somehow *because* I had to ask for it...

Well, in a nutshell, you're gonna have to get over that... reality being what it is, and all. You can want him to initiate, but if he isn't going to, he isn't going to. So that leaves you three options: 1. Get over it and ask for what you want and be happy when you get it. 2. Don't ask for what you want and keep being miserable that you're not getting it. 3. Leave him and find someone who will give you what you want without asking for it (good luck).

There's a good chance this is NRE-driven, in which case it will settle down when they do. So you can try the wait-and-see method. But I'm not big on wait and see, because usually things get worse before they get better, and if they get bad enough there won't be anything to build better from.

I still think you need to TALK to him. Calmly, patiently, with care and understanding of HIS needs and feelings. It could be he's just settled into the marriage and there's nothing to it, in which case you can just get over your need for him to be all passionate and spontaneous, because those days are over -- mourn their loss as you would any lost relationship, and focus on the reality you have now. Or it could be he's scared of you, worried that you'll blow up at any minute, and he's basically put up a wall to protect himself, in which case you might get some couples therapy to get past that. Or it could be he's just completely oblivious and thought it was all good, and might be willing to put in some effort if you tell him exactly what you need from him.
 
Have you stopped for even one second to ask him how he's feeling, and what you can do to make your marriage more enjoyable for him?

Yes, following all your advice, yesterday, I told him i appreciate his efforts to re-connect (I really i don't think he is trying that hard, but i am trying to offer positive reinforcement and to totally stay away from the negative stuff at this point). So i asked him "how are you feeling now? do you feel like things are getting a bit better for us?? Is there something I can do to help our marriage?
I know i haven't been perfect lately, and I want to know what you want out of the relationship too?...note that i said this in a very calm and caring voice whilst cuddling in bed.

His response was very limited, "yeh everything's alright babe, your not doing anything wrong, don't worry about it".

It concerns me a little that when I bring up these kinds of conversations his body language indicates that he is uncomfortable to talk and reluctant to open up... (looking away, sighing, squirming, even covering eyes with the forearm). Reading this body language I just say to him calmly "its ok to tell me later if you think of something OK". I give him a little hug and the conversation ends there.

If you want passion back in your marriage, then pony up and become passionate with your husband. Quit waiting around for him to do all the devouring, look how well that's working out for you.

I am suffering pretty intense fear of rejection at the moment, these feelings are not comming from out of nowhere, or purely from my own jealousy and insecurity about him dating someone else. He has been noticeably less affectionate with me lately. For example Sleeping with his back to me all night long instead of intermittent cuddles. Sleeping in longer than me instead of getting up and offering to help with the breakfast. Showing less interest in doing things together. Not inviting me to do things. Everything indicates that he wants space from me and is feeling suffocated (yet if I asked him for clarification on this he would probably shy away from responding properly and I would risk making it worse). I think this may have started a while ago, but on a much lesser scale but obviously I have handled it all wrong....bottling things up and then exploding .... and now it has reached a critical point after my series of emotional explosions and demanding sex from him etc...

I get that confidence sexy and I need to "pony up", but considering he seems so suffocated I have been taking a softer approach than to just "throw him on the couch and devour him"..... The other day i was in bed with him and I nibbled his ear lobe and kissed his neck and he squirmed slightly and said he was hot under all the covers without responding to me in a sexual way. I took that as him not being in the mood. I felt rejected. But I did my best to let those feelings pass and I just went to do something else by myself without mentioning it.

Typically he likes to be in the drivers seat when it comes to sex, and i like to submit to him, so me making bold moves on him is likely to seem a bit out of character on my part and he will know that Im doing it not just because im really horny but because i desperately want to reconnect with him. This puts pressure on him. Yes he is a go with the flow kinda guy in most situations but at times he can be very stubborn and doesn't respond well to any pressure.

I get what you guys are saying about simply being direct as being the easiest solution, i.e. i could just simply ask him "hey its been a while..are you in the mood for playing around?" but I think due to the recent problems we've had, he already fears i will blow up if he is honest and says "no not really". And to be honest I am sure that although i would not respond angrily anymore, I would still have difficulty hiding my hurt feelings which he cant deal with anymore.

We have had sex twice in the last 10 days, both times happened after I asked him for some extra affection... I was direct.. we were in bed and I just said "can i have a cuddle" and then it developed into something more but always with him initiating the sex part... The times I have tried to seduce him he has acted like he wanted space. So I'm just trying to act as chilled as possible so that he knows he has a right to say no without me blowing up.

Do i feel like i am being authentic, not really, i feel like i am suppressing some feelings of being unappreciated and rejected. But given how liberal i have been with my emotions in the recent past and his current reaction to direct communication I think the only thing i can do is to back off.
 
Maybe it's just a matter of taking things slow? "Rome wasn't built in a day," as they say. I think that some verbal communication could help, general stuff for now such as, "I really enjoyed when we had sex yesterday, and I look forward to the next time, I just want you to know." Honestly, all is not lost if you're still having sex about once every five days. Gentle encouragement should be enough for him to not hold back as much. "Can we have sex more often?" is something you could perhaps say. As long as you're listening carefully to his answers.

I know things are not easy right now. I am sympathetic about that.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
The way I see it, you're assuming that he will not respond the way you want him to ("properly"), and so you're still avoiding having a specific, clear discussion.

You are being quite vague when you ask him things like: "Is everything alright between us? Do things seem better to you? What can do to help our marriage?" You're not being specific about what is bothering you.

What you need to say is: "I can see you're uncomfortable talking about our relationship, but certain things have been bothering me and I need to talk to you about them. I notice that you don't seem to want as much affection from me as you used to. You've been sleeping with your back to me all night long, not cuddling with me very much unless I ask for it, staying in bed after I get up, and generally seem uninterested in doing things with me anymore. I keep feeling like you're distancing yourself from me or that I am suffocating you. I feel rejected and very sad about these changes. What is going on?"
 
Or could be he's just sick of always having to be the one to initiate, and that's valid too. Bottom line being that the person who's complaining that there isn't enough sex is the person who's responsible for initiating more sex.

I don't get why that's so complicated for some people, they won't just ask for what they want because they expect their partners to be mind readers, to be perfectly considerate and always coming up with romantic things and such... I mean sure it's nice if your partner does that, but if they don't volunteer, just ask them. Most people are happy to do nice things for their partner, it just may not occur to them to do it spontaneously. So you can sit around and wallow in self-pity that your partner isn't coming up with all these things, or you can do something about it. Guess which one works better?

Myself, having a responsive sex drive, I have learned that if I feel like we "need" to have sex more because of whatever bullshit society has planted in my brain, then I just start doing sexy time stuff even when I'm not especially horny at the moment, and that gets both of us in the mood. In other words, a responsive sex drive is also responsive to you initiating sex even when you don't feel like it. But most of the time my intellect rises above that and I realize, hey if neither of us is horny and actually feeling like we want sex, then why initiate sex just because society has some dictate about how often married people "should" fuck?

lol... sometimes to me, sex is like a chore... like, you know you have to clean the kitchen, you don't really want to, but you hate that the kitchen is dirty. So you start cleaning and part way through you realize, hey this isn't even that bad, what's the big deal? And then eventually the kitchen is clean and you're glad you did it.


I dont think I let society dictate anything about my relationship, if we are poly then that is a pretty good indication that we dont care about social norms that much. I am just comparing our relationship to a not too distant past in which we were both very comfortable to ask each other for sex and were having very lovely passionate sex at least a few times a week. Not because we thought we had to, but because we genuinely wanted it to and we were enjoying it, satisfying that urge, being really attracted to each other and bonding together.
I dont think it necessarily has to be that we re-connect in this way either (sexually). I would be satisfied if he showed some interest in doing other things together. But the physical connection is a good place to start as its something that was a really big part of our relationship in the past.

If in the not to distant past he was doing all this stuff spontaneously then i am right to be concerned about his distancing himself physically. It indicates a big problem.... And I dont think just asking him for sex is going to fix it. I want to understand why he doesnt want it anymore. And it feels like its passed the point of him wanting to openly discuss it. If thats the case then can this really be all my fault. Could it be that my husband has communication issues also?
Your advice has been great. The wake up call i need... But maybe your being hard on me.
 
This is what you need to say: "I can see you're uncomfortable talking about our relationship, but certain things have been bothering me and I need to talk to you about them. I notice that you don't seem to want as much affection from me as you used to. You've been sleeping with your back to me all night long, not cuddling with me very much unless I ask for it, staying in bed after I get up, and generally seem uninterested in doing things with me anymore. I keep feeling like you're distancing yourself from me or that I am suffocating you. I feel rejected and very sad about these changes. What is going on?"

I agree with you!!! This is the kind of conversation I would like to have with him.. But if i say this to him it will be too confronting for him... I have tried believe me. I think he has difficulty with directly confronting questions. I guess my vague language is me trying to bring it up gently by speaking the way he would speak if it were him in my situation. Sometimes he will think about it for a while and then he'll get back to me. But he cages up when directly confronted. Very frustrating for a person like me who is extremely frank and hates to beat around the bushes.

Kevin T. Thats exactly what ive been doing. Taking it slowly ... Cos i know my husband and I know he needs to ease back into it. The more confronting i am the more it pushes him away. I have been doing like you said and saying stuff like "that sex this morning was really nice, cant wait to do it again"....and I been getting positive results.

All is not lost, today I noticed he was more affectionate and smiling at me. Asking if we could watch a movie later and stuff.
 
It sounds like things are looking up a little, that's good to hear.
 
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