So Much Confusion...

[Zephyra]

I'm new here, this my first post outside of my intro thread. So hello

I've come seeking some insight or advice.

We're completely crazy about each other, but my partner and I have had our issues as a couple.

Our first 6 months or so together in 2014 were pure bliss. Lots of travel, sex and adventures. I swear he was made just for me with how open he is to dong basically anything. There's an age gap, 8 years. I'm 25 and he's 33. He adores me and loves to shower me with new experiences since I haven't had many and I crave them.

2015 was pure hell though after moving to Washington. I lost almost everything important to me. I gained some weight back (I had experienced a glorious 100 pound weight loss the previous year) due to some injuries that kept me from doing much. I lost my career that I was absolutely in love with, none of my friends or family really came to see me, sex life was down the tube because of my injuries... I got extremely depressed. I'm an ACOA (adult child of an alcoholic), and I was on zombie medication for around a decade since I was misdiagnosed with bipolar disorder at age 14, (I decided that it was a bullshit diagnosis in 2013 and quit taking medications). Between those two things, I am very underdeveloped emotionally. My coping mechanisms are those from childhood from dealing with my alcoholic dad... hiding, shutting down, crying for hours on end when upset, being hyper-vigilant and hyper-sensitive, never feeling good enough for anything, making everything my fault. The list goes on. I lost my confidence. We made it through the year by some miracle and moved to Montana where things have gotten much better. I'm working on myself; fixing my emotional problems, going back to school to be a nurse since being a CNA is hard on the body (part of what manifested some of my leg injuries), my injuries are getting better slowly with physical therapy... things are bouncing back.

Enter my problem, now that the background has been established.

I met my boyfriend not long after my ex finally had the balls to break up with me after a month of not talking to me (turns out he started ignoring me since he wanted to be exclusive with someone else). My ex had claimed to be poly, but seemed to take the route of ghosting me rather than be honest. So of course poly left a bad taste in my mouth.

Fast forward...

All during that miserable year, my boyfriend constantly brought up the idea of finding a second partner since I was depressed and physically unable to give him all that he needed at the time. It fueled my depression when he would do this because it felt like he wasn't giving me a chance to fix myself, wanting to go out and find a permanent solution to some temporary problems.

It's come up a little bit now. not seriously, but enough to cause us to fight yesterday, and we realized how different our takes on poly really is.

The skinny of it is this:

My step brother is poly, and thus I've grown accustomed to his application of it since he's the one I originally went to when I was considering that I was poly, and found out that him and his wife were poly themselves. I believe that poly should not be considered until a relationship is healthy and well established emotionally and physically as to prevent resentment and feelings of insecurity. I also believe that you live with your primary partner, and your other partners live on their own. But, things can evolve, ebb and flow. Other people can move in over time with good meshing and communication.

My boyfriend's take on poly is about getting from other people what you don't from your current partner, and you should be allowed to go out and find a second partner if you're not happy. He also believes that everybody should live under one roof ideally. His past experience was a live in girlfriend who was not satisfying him sexually due to a lack of amount, so he rekindled with an ex for sexual needs. His live in girlfriend ended up disappearing without a trace one day after a month or so of poly (she's okay, she just left him without a word apparently), so that ended his poly experience.

I'm improving a lot as my physical therapy continues, but I have a long way to go in terms of sexual skill since my boyfriend is used to being with women older than him, and very experienced at that. Being so much younger and inexperienced due to my background, and plagued by physical issues the last year, sexual issues have come up a lot, as well as poly disagreements since it feels like he's trying to use poly as a bunch of stitches on a papercut. He generally only seems to bring poly up when things are bad, and it irritates me since I think that poly needs to happen when both partners are in a good place with life and with each other.

Am I inconsiderate for getting upset that he brings up poly when things are bad? I don't want any resentment or insecurity, which is why I refuse to entertain it when things are bad and we haven't fully developed and grown as a couple yet. Is he wrong for wanting to trying to find very permanent solutions to temporary problems?

Things are so confusing

This is the man that I want to spend my life with as my primary, I want to ask him to marry me on our two year anniversary in July. I'm crazy about him, I want him, I need him. I don't know what I would do without him. And he tells me that he's never felt so emotionally deeply about someone as me before. He's the yin to my yang... everything I don't have in myself that I need, he gives me. Moon of my life, my sun and stars if you will... so absolutely stupid in love with him. He's loving, caring, nurturing, supportive, shares my thirst for life experiences. But sometimes it's hard when ideals clash...

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you have had so much to deal with -- moving and injuries and so on.

Let me repeat back what I read so I know I got it how you meant it ok? Correct me if I am wrong.

YOUR BELIEFS

• Poly should not be considered until a relationship is healthy and well established emotionally and physically as to prevent resentment and feelings of insecurity. (We are not there yet.)
  
• In the poly model I would want to practice, I live with my primary partner. Any other partners live on their own. Other people can move in over time with good meshing and communication.

BF BELIEFS

• Poly is considered when the existing relationship is not meeting needs. Other poly partners exist to "fix the gaps."
  
• In the poly model he wants to practice, everyone lives under one roof... when? (As soon as possible? Or over time?)

He generally only seems to bring poly up when things are bad, and it irritates me since I think that poly needs to happen when both partners are in a good place with life and with each other.

Am I inconsiderate for getting upset that he brings up poly when things are bad?

No. What bugs you just happens to bug you. How is (you feeling annoyed by his behavior) an example of (you being inconsiderate to him)?

You could ask him to change his behavior. You could ask him to please stop bringing it up until one year from now when (hopefully) you are well from all these injuries. If he does not respect that limit? Take notes.

"Broken relationship, add more people" is a common fallacy. No healthy poly partner wants to sign up to be the "bandaid person." They want to be appreciated in their own right.

In your shoes? I would keep saying no poly talk for at least a year and ask him to focus on OTHER solutions.

For all that you say your emotional coping is stunted, you seem to be coping with the reality of your injuries and recovery time more realistically than he is. No it is not fun. Yes, it takes time to heal.

But if he basically wanted a playmate? And he had that in you in the first 6 mos with you? And now you are sick and cannot play? He wants to be free to play with someone else.

To me that sounds kind of "fair weather friend." Is he?

I suggest you think that over even if it is uncomfortable to think about.

Asking him to marry you after 2 years of dating? To me that's still NRE window. Too soon.

And especially not since he wants to cope with current reality with "bandaid poly."

Basically I'm saying... slow things down. Don't leap into poly OR marriage proposals. Tell him to stop bringing up poly during your convalescence. It's not the time.

And focus on your healing, your physical therapy, your CNA studies. Time will tell you if he's a long haul runner or not.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

.... I am very underdeveloped emotionally. My coping mechanisms are those from childhood from dealing with my alcoholic dad... hiding, shutting down, crying for hours on end when upset, being hyper-vigilant and hyper-sensitive, never feeling good enough for anything, making everything my fault. The list goes on. I lost my confidence. We made it through the year by some miracle and moved to Montana where things have gotten much better. I'm working on myself; fixing my emotional problems, going back to school to be a nurse since being a CNA is hard on the body (part of what manifested some of my leg injuries), my injuries are getting better slowly with physical therapy... things are bouncing back....

You're on the right track, but since you're asking for advice, I'll say that you're not nearly ready for marriage. I would also advise you to leave "poly" out of your life while you gain experience, footing and confidence in relationships. You lay out well what "poly" is for these two men and what they want. What do you want, besides making yourself into someone that your BF wants? I'd also give you the boring advice that the ACOA organization is a great resource for you. I'm sure that any mature ACOA sponsor would tell you that you're much too young (emotionally and experientially) to be hitching your wagon to the marriage star. You need a lot more time to develop into you before you commit to life with another person.

...I need him. I don't know what I would do without him.... everything I don't have in myself that I need, he gives me.

This is exactly why you are not ready to get married.

 

[Zephyra]

No. What bugs you just happens to bug you. How is (you feeling annoyed by his behavior) an example of (you being inconsiderate to him)?

Honestly, that may be part of my ACOA damage talking right there. I can see my, "Everything is my fault" coming out a bit in that. I tend to not care enough about myself and have a hard time standing up for myself, so it probably wasn't a good question to throw out.

In your shoes? I would keep saying no poly talk for at least a year and ask him to focus on OTHER solutions.

The funny thing is, when we fought, it came up over a broken promise on not talking about something for an allotted time period. It's the first time we've ever fought. We just don't right, we never have, but it was bad enough to cause us to fight for the first time since feeling lied to is the one and only thing that I have zero tolerance for. He had promised me to stop asking about having a threesome for 3-5 years since I have a lot of feelings of inadequacy when it comes to bedroom stuff, and wanted room to improved before bringing anybody in to do so. The short version of it is that he mentioned it twice in one day in one form or another, and I blew up over it. When asking why I was upset, I reminded him of the promise, and he said that he never remembered making it, and if he did, he was taking it back since that's something that he could not promise, was talking about a threesome. So between my zero tolerance policy on lying and him not remembering making the promise, it was a hell of an argument.

It deeply bothered him that he couldn't remember making me a promise since he takes them very seriously, but he flat out didn't remember, so he felt bad since he believes me since I have such a crazy sharp memory.

So, I do not feel comfortable about him making time-sensitive promises now. I don't like having him make promises period because the only other thing I ever wanted him to promise, I couldn't have, which was him not talking to his crazy ex who's never met me yet had the audacity to say lots of mean and nasty things about me. When I asked him to not talk to her anymore, it turned into, "Fine, but you're asking me to cut out a piece of my heart.", so I retracted it.

But if he basically wanted a playmate? And he had that in you in the first 6 mos with you? And now you are sick and cannot play? He wants to be free to play with someone else.

To me that sounds kind of "fair weather friend." Is he?

The hilarious thing is that he can't just have a toy/playmate/fuckbuddy. He's not into casual sex, at all. He wants to be fully, emotionally involved before he'll have sex with somebody. And he's very choosy about who he lets into his life because he doesn't want to waste his time on short term prospects. Him and above mentioned ex had an on-again, off-again open relationship for basically a decade, and only once did he ever have somebody else in those ten years, and that was the very brief live in girl friend that he had at one point. So I can believe him that he cannot do just a playmate if he had open-relationship freedom for the better part of a decade and only utilized it once.

He has a giant sexual appetite, 2-3 times a day, so when I was injured, I could not fulfill that, it went to basically every other day. We just got back to two times a day this week, three last night. We've even recently gotten back into a little bit of the fetish/kinky stuff that we had in the beginning, but went away in Washington; we found a role set that works extremely well for us finally. So physically, things are getting a lot better for me, I just have my stubborn pectineus muscles plaguing me, but a wonderful physical therapist who is not afraid to dry needle my trigger points, adjust my wonky SI joint and bug me about doing my exercises at home. So he's brought up poly less and less lately, which is has been better for my emotional state not having to think about having a bandaid.

Our first 6 months were interesting... basically exceptional. We both fell very hard and quick after our first two dates. Everything was a very passionate whirlwind. We're both air signs, so the communication factor is CRAZY. So much talking for hours on end... so we got an emotional connection rather quickly. Everything flowed so well. I met him in July and moved in with him two months later. Things progressed quickly since we meshed extremely well on most planes. It was easier since we were both single and had gotten out of toxic relationships, him with his crazy ex... he got fed up of her jacking him around and keeping him on a string, so he pulled the plug completely and me with my lying ex that had ghosted me for a month.

For all that you say your emotional coping is stunted, you seem to be coping with the reality of your injuries and recovery time more realistically than he is. No it is not fun. Yes, it takes time to heal.

Yeah, he was surprised himself with how I managed to make it through all our miserable existence in Washington given my emotional background, or lack thereof. I had four injuries last year. Peroneal tendonitis from a heel spur, achilles tendonitis from rolling my ankle on a hike, a strained pectineus muscle from being hyperflexible and trying weight lifting and an injured rotator cuff because his dog tried getting away at a full run when walking it one day (Alaskan Malamute, giant pulling dog). I still had a lot of breakdowns between injuries, not being able to work as a CNA and having no friends or family visiting. But I think he's surprised that I never called it quits or thought about it, since there were a few times when he almost reached that point with me.

At the end of the day, we're both extremely loyal people, and I think that's what kept me hanging in there.

Asking him to marry you after 2 years of dating? To me that's still NRE window. Too soon.

I think the NRE window is subjective. We never really got our 'NRE' honey-moon phase past six months because everything got very serious and hard after the injuries and move to Washington. Our relationship had to grow up very quickly since he had to take care of me so much financially since I couldn't work and emotionally since I was constantly a wreck. The vast majority of our relationship has been dealing with hard stuff. Hell, we're even buying a house right now, closing is in two weeks or so.

I've held back a while on already asking him just because of only being together for a year and a half or so. I keep telling myself to keep waiting until at least the two year mark in July. I discussed it with my mum a back in October, and she told me that I would know when the time is right. And I believe her. Aside from just waiting for time to pass, I'm also trying to make myself 100% sure. In the grand scheme of things, he's given me no reason to believe that he's not in it for the long haul. He's put up with so much stuff, a lot of other people would have left in his shoes, and perhaps even my shoes. So I know he's loyal to me. I'm just waiting for that two year mark and feeling out the right time after that. I don't do major life changing events without a lot of thought put into it. I'm not about to be reckless and make a purely emotional decision, it's inconsiderate to both of us to just ask without solidifying my decision... that's not my style. I know that a proposal would be more meaningful coming from me than him because I'm so much more stubborn in making life decisions, so I just know that it has to be me asking. I don't want to ask until things have come to a healthy base level, especially with my emotional issues. I need to learn to not be so emotionally needy, and it's getting better. I've come a long way, but I still have a bit to go.

And focus on your healing, your physical therapy, your CNA studies. Time will tell you if he's a long haul runner or not.

Yeah, it's been a lot of focusing on me, which I always hate... injuries are getting better though, and I'm hoping after next year that I'll be applying for an LPN program. I'm learning to be better for myself and for my partner through self-development. It's hard, I hate focusing on myself because my emotional background makes me feel greedy and bad for having to focus on myself, but I'm doing it, and it's actually making things better between us.

 

[GalaGirl]

He had promised me to stop asking about having a threesome for 3-5 years since I have a lot of feelings of inadequacy when it comes to bedroom stuff, and wanted room to improved before bringing anybody in to do so.

How about you just saying "No. Not up for threesomes at this time or the foreseeable future. "

There. He has an answer. NO. He doesn't have to keep asking. And then there's no promise or make or forget about.

I think you could work on being more assertive rather than always trying to be accommodating.

I don't want to ask until things have come to a healthy base level, especially with my emotional issues.

Sounds like if it is not right in 2 years, you won't ask him to marry you JUST because 2 years past. That's good!

So don't sweat it right now.

I think you seem to be struggling with your idea of him

" He's loving, caring, nurturing, supportive, shares my thirst for life experiences. "​

and his recent behaviors that don't line up with that.

Like when he forgets the promise not to pester you about threesomes.
Like when he keeps pestering you about poly.​

Bugging you isn't loving, caring, nurturing or supportive. If he bugs you because he needs to hear a hard NO? Say "no" rather than "Maybe in X years" stuff.

Galagirl

 

[Zephyra]

No big deal honestly, it was just an idealistic idea that i had. If I don't feel I've achieved my base level by then, I just continue to work on myself. Nothing is ever perfect and requires time and effort. I'm not jumping into it over an idealistic idea. It would be nice to feel ready by then, but if it's not in the cards by then, it's not in the cards. Like my mum told me, I'll know when the time is right. I know he's not going anywhere. He loves me unconditionally, he's told me this. Marriage isn't a rwquirement for us, more symbolic than anything of a lifelong commitment that we already want to keep to each other. Just taking things as they come

Edit:

That's part of why I'm holding off, my idea of him is struggling a bit. It's very solid, but there is this one crack. The other day when we fought I already told him no threesomes in the foreseeable future. With the right person at the right time, perhaps since I'm not terribly attracted to other women. For a few years it's an an absolute no unless something drastically changes. It's one of the few things he has never done, so he wants to try it. I would be more willing once my sexual skills improve a bit more since I struggle a bit right now with just one on one.

 

[GreenAcres]

\

Edit:

That's part of why I'm holding off, my idea of him is struggling a bit. It's very solid, but there is this one crack. The other day when we fought I already told him no threesomes in the foreseeable future. With the right person at the right time, perhaps since I'm not terribly attracted to other women. For a few years it's an an absolute no unless something drastically changes. It's one of the few things he has never done, so he wants to try it. I would be more willing once my sexual skills improve a bit more since I struggle a bit right now with just one on one.

So, you aren't attracted to women, but he wants you to have a FMF threesome? I am assuming that, in this threesome, he is expecting some girl-on-girl action to happen? Because, if he knows you're not into women and wants you to fuck one just because it's his fantasy....squick. Sexual experience isn't likely to suddenly make you attracted to women. And, as a bi women, there's also no way in hell I'd ever want to be a part of that, either! Why would I want to have sex with a woman who doesn't want to be having sex with me? Most bi women I know feel that way. And, if you're *both* doing it to make him happy, wow...that is levels of gross that he'd ever even ask that. Assuming he's not bi, would he fuck another guy in a MFM threesome, if that was a fantasy you'd never gotten to have?

Expecting a partner to fuck someone they're not into isn't loving, supportive behavior. Quite the opposite. Continuing to bring it up once they've been told that there's no attraction to said other person and saying that they need it to happen because it's "the one fantasy they've not gotten to live out" or some other related crap is, at best, manipulative.

 

[Zephyra]

He's somewhat of an optimist. In his vision of it, everybody loves everybody and is a willing participant. And in his mind, if it pleases your partner, you should get enjoyment out of it as well because it makes them happy and feel good. If I ever wanted a threesome with another guy, he says he would do it even though he's not attracted to men. I have absolutely no desire to do that though. He's very clear that I don't have to do anything that I don't want, he just feels shattered that I don't want to have one since he's had fantasies of me and another woman he may potentially love pleasuring him. He's not in it for the female on female aspect, but for the idea that two people he loves are pleasuring him to the same time. To me, a threesome would probably destroy me, at least at this point in time. For lack of a better word, I find them repulsive. Not from the actions, but from having to emotionally split yourself up and not give someone 100% of yourself. As I've said, it would take a very special woman. I have only ever found myself having romantic feelings towards one or two women ever, and it wasn't from the physical aspects, but mental and emotional. That is the only reason I would ever hold out hope of giving him his threesome, is if there was one of those very rare women that I could feel romantically towards and I could manage to get over my thing of the attention/ emotional splitting. Anything is possible, but very highly improbable at this point in time.

 

[KC43]

Yeah... it is possible to have an FMF without the women having any physical interaction (I've done it, though I was told by numerous people that it wasn't a "real" threesome because of that... of course, the same people insisted that an MFM *was* a real threesome even if the guys didn't fuck), but much of the time, it seems that a guy who wants an FMF wants it in large part so he can see the women playing with each other, though I see that as I was typing this, you posted that that isn't your boyfriend's main goal. I'm glad you've set a boundary about that, Zephyra. I would say if you ever reach a point where you do agree to go along with it, you try arranging it so you and the other woman are just playing with the guy, not with each other.

It's also possible to have an FMF or an MFM without all the participants loving each other or having any romantic feelings toward each other whatsoever... In the threesome I mention above, I was in the early stages of becoming friends with a married couple. The husband and I talked and flirted online quite a bit, and in person if we were at the same parties (PG-rated parties), but at the time the threesome happened, pretty much the only contact I'd had with the wife since introducing myself was occasionally saying hi in the chat room we frequented. So I didn't know her well enough to even honestly be able to say I liked her, let alone had feelings for her. I'm straight both sexually and romantically, so I wouldn't have had romantic feelings for her in any case. The threesome happened because I had a hotel room with a jacuzzi to stay overnight near one of the aforementioned parties, and I invited them to come use the jacuzzi since my date had bailed on me, and they invited me to join them.

 

[GreenAcres]

He's very clear that I don't have to do anything that I don't want, he just feels shattered that I don't want to have one since he's had fantasies of me and another woman he may potentially love pleasuring him. He's not in it for the female on female aspect, but for the idea that two people he loves are pleasuring him to the same time.

Does he say he's shattered, that he doesn't know how he'll live without out but he'll try (for you!), that "It's totally okay for you not to do it, because I don't ever want you to do anything you don't want to do, but *I* would do it for *you*", thereby implying your a bad person for not doing it for him? Because that kind of language is emotional blackmail, designed to do EXACTLY what it's doing to you: make you feel guilty. Lots of men, I'd venture to say a majority, want two chicks pleasing them (some prefer there be emotions involved, others prefer it just be NSA sex, but the premise is the same). They're not "shattered" when it doesn't happen. In generally, they're not even particularly surprised. A bit disappointed, because...well, we'd all love to have many of our fantasies come true.

If he is that emotionally wrought over it, you two probably aren't a match. And, he probably needs some counseling. "Shattered" is something someone gets over the death of a loved one. If he's truly that distraught about a fantasy that he never had any reason to think would happen, that explicitly involves someone doing something he knows they are not interested in (and, from the sounds of it, outright opposed to), then he has a lot of issues he should address before committing to marriage.

 

[GreenAcres]

Yeah... it is possible to have an FMF without the women having any physical interaction (I've done it, though I was told by numerous people that it wasn't a "real" threesome because of that... of course, the same people insisted that an MFM *was* a real threesome even if the guys didn't fuck), but much of the time, it seems that a guy who wants an FMF wants it in large part so he can see the women playing with each other. I'm glad you've set a boundary about that, Zephyra. I would say if you ever reach a point where you do agree to go along with it, you try arranging it so you and the other woman are just playing with the guy, not with each other.

It's totally possible, and can be a lot of fun. If all three people are into it. I am baffled that people would consider it not a "real" threesome. Of course, since many people don't consider blowjobs "real sex," I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[KC43]

Yeah, it baffled me too, especially since, as I said, the same people saying it wasn't a "real" threesome because the other woman and I didn't play got pissed off when I said, "Okay, so an MFM isn't a real threesome unless the men play, right?" Their sole justification for saying my thing wasn't "real" was that the other woman and I kept our hands off each other.

 

[Zephyra]

Mind you when he said shattered we were in the middle of a heated arguement. He's a very passionate person, so strong words can get thrown out there in heated discussions, but can get over a lot of things quickly. Mad today, okay tomorrow. It's more shattered as in he's upset but he's not going to end things over it or hold it over my head, he's just extremely upset. His thinking is that if I never warm up to the idea, then he would do it in he future with another established partner with a woman they liked. It's something he's wanted for like, 20 years, but no partner has ever wanted to do it, so I think he'll get over it. It's something I would like to try and give him when I'm ready for it and there's a woman we both like, but I see that happening years in the future. Not next year, not within 3 years, but probably further out.

 

[GalaGirl]

Other people have already addressed that whole "shattered" thing being weird -- so I won't.

I wanted to lift this up:

And in his mind, if it pleases your partner, you should get enjoyment out of it as well because it makes them happy and feel good.

Does that go for YOU too? Or is that only for him?

Because I get the vibe YOU would be pleased and feel happy and good when he honors your boundaries and does NOT bring up poly or threesomes when you have asked him to stop. And by his logic he should enjoy respecting your boundaries because it pleases you when he does.

But it sounds like he keeps pushing that and bringing it up when you guys are in a low spot like he's going to emotionally bail on you any minute.

His thinking is that if I never warm up to the idea, then he would do it in he future with another established partner with a woman they liked.

And he plans to arrive at this established partner by bringing up poly to you whenever the chips are down?

Time will tell if this is a long haul runner or not. Take note of the cracks as they pop up. You deserve to be treated well.

But back to your original question -- Are you right to feel annoyed? Yes. When you have set a boundary of not talking to you about poly or threesomes until X? He's behaving poorly and not honoring that boundary when he keeps on bringing it up. I don't see how that behavior would please you or help you feel happy and good.

Claiming he forgot it? Well, say he really did forget. That's not treating you like you are important to him -- if he forgets things that matter to you. I don't see how that behavior would please you or help you feel happy and good either.

Galagirl

 

[sdguitarguy]

Good for the goose...

And in his mind, if it pleases your partner, you should get enjoyment out of it as well because it makes them happy and feel good.

Ha! I had a partner who used to say this and it was basically a cover for why they should be able to do anything that they wanted and why I should be ok with it. In my experience, it's a cover for not respecting someone else's boundaries.

And what's good for the goose never quite applies to the gander when you turn it around (as has been already discussed in this thread regarding MFM versus FMF threesomes). That's how you know it's bs.

But beyond that, your boundaries are your boundaries. The fact that someone else has different boundaries doesn't mean that you should change your own.

 

[GreenAcres]

"And in his mind, if it pleases your partner, you should get enjoyment out of it as well because it makes them happy and feel good."

Along with agreeing with GalaGirl and Sdguitarguy completely, this just doesn't logically work,
because it doesn't apply in both directions.

If action X makes PartnerOne happy, but leaves PartnerTwo feeling insecure/grossed out/repulsed/etc, then by the above logic PartnerOne shouldn't enjoy it because it makes PartnerTwo unhappy. Meaning, in order for that whole line of thinking to work, BOTH partners need to be happy about doing something. Unless only "good" feelings, conveniently, count and bad ones should be dismissed?

This kind of argument is a logical fallacy, and, again--I cannot stress this enough--EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION. Literally everything you've written here about him and your relationship screams self-serving, self-centered manipulator.

Do some reading on emotional manipulation, and see if it resonates with what is going on. From this angle on the internet, it definitely does:

http://liveboldandbloom.com/02/relationships/emotional-manipulation

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Zephyra,

It does seem like your boyfriend is pushing rather vigorously in the poly and threesome areas. I don't mean to tell you what to do ... perhaps a (poly-friendly) counselor would be something to consider. Somehow you need to tell your boyfriend that he is pushing too hard ... if the two of you are going to remain together.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[SheBLittleButFierce]

Hello Zephyra,

It sounds like you have a lot to process right now. But before I give you anything else to ponder I want to say, someone cannot be your everything if they want to remake you. You aren't sure you are comfortable with polyamory at worst and at best you don't want the additional relationship of his to feel like a replacement of you! Both of these concerns are valid and need to be addressed.

As for me, I was in the Army and married (thankfully also divorced) an Army man. Not all, but most of them see threesomes as a way to live just their fantasies. My ex-husband was polyamorous for him and I was forced and even abused to be monogamous unless he wanted to use my body in one of his fantasies. This is unacceptable. You are not a toy! You are a valuable individual that deserves affection and understanding. Polyamory means LOVING many not using many for sex.

As for him, if he has a fantasy, that's fine, healthy even! It appears his last attempt at polyamory didn't work out so maybe he needs to explore fantasies with you first. If he wants a threesome, there is a way to explore this in a healthy manner that doesn't trample on either of you. I'm sure you have fantasies you'd like him to fulfill. These little explorations are NOT a lifestyle, the are a journey taken by two people who trust each other and if you can both be open and happy with each other in these moments of fantasy fulfillment, then you will be more able to entertain the idea of polyamory. It still might not be what you're looking for. My point is that fantasy reciprocation as a path for you will lead to more trust and peace of mind.

Fantasy and polyamory are not related to each other. Fantasy belongs to the realm of sex and intimacy. Monogamous and Polyamorous people have different fantasies and experience intimacy in different ways. Your boyfriend might be getting this confused. People don't fantasize that marriage means better sex so they shouldn't think that polyamory means better relationships. It's simply not true. One is a lifestyle and the other is a desire.

I would talk to him about fantasy discussions and exploration. It may mean that you have to be open-minded and flexible, although keep in mind that you ALWAYS HAVE the right to say "no" to anything that is too uncomfortable for you physically or emotionally.

I wish you luck and I am happy to hear that physical therapy is helping another person regain life yet again! Yay!

 

[Zephyra]

I had him buckle down last night and have a serious talk about a lot of things. I think that all in all it's turned out pretty positive. Hammered out some agreements if you will, even if some things seemed like pulling teeth... it's hard to get him to agree with things sometimes because it always turns into "... depends, what if...".

So here is is the take away from last night:

1) I asked him if was he truly 'shattered' when I told him that I found the idea of a threesome more or less disgusting since shattered seemed to be a very strong word over it. He told me no, he's not shattered over me not wanting one at this point in time. He was shattered over my strong words against it, and admitted that he should have probably used different words. After re-examining it, he came to the conclusion of not shattered, but rather very surprised by my reaction since I'm open to a lot of things compared to past partners. He feels disappointed that I wouldn't consider one right now, but not shattered, and now understands that it's something that will either come in time, or not at all.

2) I very bluntly asked if his "You should get pleasure out of it because it pleasures your partner." seemed to be a manipulation tactic, because to me it sort of does feel like it at times. He agreed, he can see how it feels like I at times I can feel like I'm being manipulated with that statement. I flat out asked him, "Do I need to feel guilty about not doing something that I really don't want to do?". He told me no, absolutely not. I feel the way that I feel and shouldn't feel guilty at all.I told him to never ever apply that logic to me or try to use it on me again because it does feel like manipulation in ways and kind of it whether he intentionally mentions it or not because it's his prerogative, not mine. It may be something that he abides by, but it is something that I cannot get into the mind set of because there are things that I still feel closed off to for various reasons. He seemed totally okay with this, never trying to apply his mindset on me again.

3) Absolutely no band aids unless there is some crazy long term medical issues that are causing prolonged needs fullfillment. Six week problem? Hell no, you're not getting a band aid as much as it sucks. Several months? Iffy, negotiable. A year or more? Sure, go try and find a friend with benefits. But do not consider a full on partner since the band aid mentality is not healthy for any partner involved. Coming into a relationship when the first one is already shaky for whatever reason is not healthy at all. So if I were to be disabled for whatever reason for along amount of time, but were to get better, just an FWB. I think that this one was the hardest to try and hammer out since his biggest needs to tend to be sexual, so it was a very tender area to try and compromise on.

4) A timeline and ground rules for poly. Absolutely no poly for a few years. We do need to work on establishing a healthy base and grow as a couple first. He found this completely reasonable and agreed with me on it. He tried a bit to bring up extreme outlying examples... 'Oh, what if I fall madly in love with someone tomorrow and want them to move in?' (he's one of those people that likes to be prepared for every scenario ever ahead of time). I made him put aside any and all extreme outlying situations though, and we came to the agreement, no poly for at least a few years because we have to reach a healthy base and grow with each other a bit first, because I really do believe that once we've managed to achieve growth from a healthy base, I will be more open to things that he wants like a threesome or other people living with us. I do believe I could in the future have a threesome if I established a strong mental and emotional connection with the other woman involved. I could not do a threesome where the women will not touch each other since it's fairly fulfilling in ways. A female friend of his gave her boyfriend a threesome to make him happy in the past, and he remembers how it destroyed her, and I told him that I do not want that to be me, I don't want to feel emotionally obligated to do it for his sake and destroy myself int he process. Everybody would have to be into everybody to some degree.

As for him ever having a second partner under our roof, we both agreed on something. It would take an extremely special person. To make it quantifiable, I reference just how close of a connection it would have to be referencing one of his female friends that I absolutely trust and adore. It would have to be someone of that caliber that I would be able to establish a deep friendship with, because if I have to hear him having sex in the next room with somebody, it has to be somebody that I care for and am not going to feel jealous about. Someone that I don't resent. Someone that I can talk to about all aspects of the relationship and be comfortable with it because communication is important, even between non-sexual partners. He completely agreed, not just anybody gets to potentially move in, and they would have to be at the caliber that his one friend is to be considered for moving in.

4) I decided to bring up my desire to be married eventually. We had a lot of agreements in this realm. Legal marriage is bullshit since neither of us are religiously tied to marriage, and really don't believe that it should be a piece of paper validating love, but rather the degree of trust that you have with each other to not even need that piece of paper. His parents considered themselves husband and wife, but never actually legally married. His mom just legally changed her last name and they decided to be husband and wife without the paperwork. I could see us doing something like that eventually, because the novelty of being a Mrs. is appealing, and has always been a want of mine. I want to be able to call someone my husband and to be called wife. He's not against it at all. I did tell him though, that I do have some hangups. I do want to be able to emotionally stand on my own feet before we would do a hand-fasting or something. It's not fair to start something like a marriage without being emotionally and mentally stable. I have a lot of walls from damage that need to come down first, and if those walls come down, the whole, "I need you, you're everything I'm not" thing will more than likely go away since I wouldn't be using him as an emotional security blanket. So marriage, in a non-traditional sense, is definitely a possibility to him. We both agree that I need to work on myself a bit, and even him to a lesser extent to be able to enter it in a mutually healthy, good place. I have come a very long way in emotionally maturation compared to last year, but the walls need to come down through some self reflection and letting go of damage from the past.

I feel a lot better and feel like I have more clarification on things after our discussion. Heck, I think we were talking for over 8 hours in all, so I'd hope that I did.

 

[kdt26417]

Sounds like you guys got a lot of things worked out. That's good to hear.