Why do these people keep coming out of the woodwork?

[kdt26417]

Sounds like you're having ups and downs there but overall, things are still (slowly) improving. I must confess though that I can't think of a good consequence for if she brings Chicago Guy up again. Cut off her communications with him for a month? I don't know.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm open to suggestions, but drawing blanks at the moment.

SHORT TERM

You could postpone you going on the errands for another day.

• She could do whatever is possible to do online instead. (Banking, shopping, etc)
  
• Or she could go out to do the errands on her own, with daughter, or with a friend.

You basically relieve her of your company for the day and take it as a time out to clear out your head again/empty the bucket since she put stuff in there again that you do not want. She did not keep the agreement. Bummer you don't get to hang out together like you were looking forward to, but I think holding her accountable is more important here.

LONG TERM

You tell her the next time it happens you will ask her to cut it off with Chicago because she cannot keep to her agreement to not fill your bucket with Chicago things. You have given an opportunity to learn new skills and she's not doing it.

Could just make there be no agreement to keep any more because he's not around any more. So there's nothing new to tell. The pipes went dry, and even if she leaves her info faucet wide open, nothing comes out to overspill in your bucket.

OTHER STUFF YOU COULD DO

You might ask for a joint therapy appointment with counselor – because you are the one who has to live with this patient person, and it sounds like sometimes it frustrates you a lot. (Like the time with the blood tests where you tried to comfort her but she didn't want comfort, she wanted a "freak out" buddy.)

Perhaps the counselor can help identify areas where you could change your approach with wife? Holding her accountable seems to be an area to work on.

Perhaps counselor could help you with your expectations -- what is realistic to expect from her and wife is just coasting/sliding on accountability. And what expectations are not realistic yet or need more time. Perhaps having clearer expectations would ease the frustrations.

In any case, my perspective, and my side of the story get pretty much ignored by all of them. But I've made it very clear that I am more or less as accessible as she is, if they ever want to chat me up. Obviously, no takers, so I have no choice but to view them as strangers.

YOU could move on to initiate and do the first chatting up. Or make your own friends. You DO have some choices there. And you seem to need more people connections in your life.

Do you belong to any patient boards for whatever her dx is? There's sometimes areas for the spouse to get support.

It sounds like things get slowly better, but it's not going to be smooth ride. It's going to be mini up and down jiggles as the overall trend comes down.

Galagirl

 

[CTF]

Sounds like you're having ups and downs there but overall, things are still (slowly) improving. I must confess though that I can't think of a good consequence for if she brings Chicago Guy up again. Cut off her communications with him for a month? I don't know.

I'm definitely having my ups & downs, but you're right... Things are improving. From where I stand, I trust my wife to keep the boundaries within our marriage when it comes to mono vs. poly. Sex, romance, etc...

The thing is, there seems to be this inability on her part, to maintain privacy. I've already mentioned things that I was upset over her sharing with her "friends" (bedroom details, issues of my depression, etc...), but she's also doing the same in reverse. Honestly, it's none of MY business if Chicago gets dumped by someone. And yesterday, she told me about another friend of hers (no one involved in any of these topics) who got arrested over the weekend. Now, that, in itself, could be vague enough for us to talk about. But she began to give me details about the arrest... I left it alone, since I am completely neutral, but a part of me almost asked her if he was okay with her telling me this. It's not my business, it doesn't affect me/us, so I really don't need to know.

I guess a big part of what bugs me, from the standpoint of my wife, is that she doesn't seem to be doing a very good job respecting privacy of people.

As for the consequence of Chicago... I don't know. I'm really at a loss. I don't know if cutting off contact for a month is really the way to go. She's a 39 year old woman, and it would almost feel like she's being grounded. But I do have half a mind to contact him and see what I can do to keep him from telling her all of this nonsense.

 

[CTF]

SHORT TERM

You could postpone you going on the errands for another day.

• She could do whatever is possible to do online instead. (Banking, shopping, etc)
  
• Or she could go out to do the errands on her own, with daughter, or with a friend.

You basically relieve her of your company for the day and take it as a time out to clear out your head again/empty the bucket since she put stuff in there again that you do not want. She did not keep the agreement. Bummer you don't get to hang out together like you were looking forward to, but I think holding her accountable is more important here.

LONG TERM

You tell her the next time it happens you will ask her to cut it off with Chicago because she cannot keep to her agreement to not fill your bucket with Chicago things. You have given an opportunity to learn new skills and she's not doing it.

Could just make there be no agreement to keep any more because he's not around any more. So there's nothing new to tell. The pipes went dry, and even if she leaves her info faucet wide open, nothing comes out to overspill in your bucket.

OTHER STUFF YOU COULD DO

You might ask for a joint therapy appointment with counselor – because you are the one who has to live with this patient person, and it sounds like sometimes it frustrates you a lot. (Like the time with the blood tests where you tried to comfort her but she didn't want comfort, she wanted a "freak out" buddy.)

Perhaps the counselor can help identify areas where you could change your approach with wife? Holding her accountable seems to be an area to work on.

Perhaps counselor could help you with your expectations -- what is realistic to expect from her and wife is just coasting/sliding on accountability. And what expectations are not realistic yet or need more time. Perhaps having clearer expectations would ease the frustrations.



YOU could move on to initiate and do the first chatting up. Or make your own friends. You DO have some choices there. And you seem to need more people connections in your life.

Do you belong to any patient boards for whatever her dx is? There's sometimes areas for the spouse to get support.

It sounds like things get slowly better, but it's not going to be smooth ride. It's going to be mini up and down jiggles as the overall trend comes down.

Galagirl

Very true. And very good advice. Especially, when it comes to the running errands part. Something small & relevant to the situation. Telling her I'd rather have sat that shopping trip out, because now I have to decompress. Or, just find something to do by myself. Go for a drive, for example.

As for the therapy... It's not a bad idea to go in a couples platform. But as I've said before, this new one seems to be doing more to hold her accountable. And I am noticing a difference overall. Trying to figure out what, precisely she needs (not wants) seems to be the most difficult task lately. Everything has changed. Not just in the poly sense, but everything else as well. Our lives were going in a very different direction for the first 16 years of our marriage than they have been in the last year +. And I find myself so confused on what to do anymore.

As for her friends... It's true, I could make some of my own. And I actually have. I just feel like these friendships are a bit empty, because I can't open up to them. It's never been an easy thing to do, and now, I feel like I'm constantly having to hold back, because I don't want this situation we're dealing with presently, to come up. But my point with hers, is that I have this growing distrust of all of them lately. Not that I think that they're all bad, in fact, I'm sure most of them are decent people, but I also thought the same about these three, so I become paranoid that sooner or later, more will begin to do what the others did... I thought that maybe, if I get to know some of them, I wouldn't harbor such distrust... But it's too many people, and I'm not the type to become friends with anymore than a small handful. I wouldn't be able to hold up my end of the maintenance.

And yes, overall, things are SIGNIFICANTLY better. I can sleep most nights now, and I don't have the appetite loss like I once did, so that's got to account for something. I feel like I can handle the jiggling of the road much better than before. Although, I do keep having these imaginary discussions about it all. For some reason, I can't seem to stop it.

 

[GalaGirl]

That's right. You could tell her you are going to pass on the errands. Or go for a drive on your own.

she doesn't seem to be doing a very good job respecting privacy of people.

Is she enmeshed? Lacks filters?

As for the consequence of Chicago... I don't know. I'm really at a loss. I don't know if cutting off contact for a month is really the way to go. She's a 39 year old woman, and it would almost feel like she's being grounded.

I think you mean "It would feel like I am grounding her."

Funny you say that. I don't know what her mental health dx is, but one of my parents has Alzheimer. A lot of the time when I'm over there, I have to take the parental role to an 80-something year old man. His body age means nothing. It's his current mental capacity.

He's losing all sense, and he cannot process hard stuff for himself. I cannot sit there EXPLAINING high concept things to him. That only frustrates him, and obfuscates my message. I have to deal with him like being with a kid. Short and sweet. Plain and simple. Like a traffic cop. Do this -- do not do that.

He does something out of bounds? I tell him RIGHT then. Not later. If I tell him right then, he can understand what I am upset about. If I sit and think on it, and he's moved on and forgotten all about this morning? And here I come to talk about upset in the afternoon? He just sees that I'm upset "for no reason" and thinks I'm bringing him misery. Which I am -- he moved on. Do I want my caregiver day to be all about misery or be about smoother sailing? If I have stuff to process still, that is MY stuff. I can process it elsewhere with someone else. It doesn't have to be with him.

So I tell him what he did/did not do in the moment. And what he has to do next. Short and sweet. Plain and simple. Even if it feels parent-y. He usually gets upset just like a little kid. So? I still have to hold the line and guide him along.

"I see you are upset. I am sorry.

This is what is happening right now. I told you I will help if you do X. You have not done X yet. If you want me to help, you have to do X first. (What to do)

We can spend time being upset (what he does not want/like) or we can get on with the show so you can have me helping you with ____. (what he does want/like)

What would you like right now? It is your choice."​

To me you sound like maybe you struggle to accept your patient relationship with your wife. You remind me of my Mom. She has not accepted Patient Dad, and the fact that their relationship has changed. And that yeah, she's going to have to maintain boundaries, hold him accountable, and tell him what to do/what not do. Because he cannot reliably tell himself. And he cannot see when he's being inappropriate. He's lost/losing filters. It does feel kinda parent-y. Actually, it's caregiver-y.

All the poly stuff set aside? That sounds like it could be the core thing here. Like you want her to be relating to you like Healthy Wife. But she just isn't. She's Patient Wife.

Being a patient wife doesn't excuse her from owning her stuff and doing her jobs -- some patients try to coast like they got the "Patient Hall Pass."

My dad does that. He'd LOVE for everyone to let him coast and not be held accountable. Me? I change my expectations and still hold him accountable.

• In his condition do I expect him to balance his checkbook? NO. He has lost that capacity.
  
• Do I expect him to fee the dog? YES. Do I expect him to fold and put away laundry? YES. He's perfectly capable doing those things still.

So I think you could skip explaining. Just tell her what you want her to do and expect her to do it. Even if it feels "caregiver-y." Try that on for a while and see if things get better that way. If she has no filter and cannot respect people's privacy? Accept it and when it happens, just be a traffic cop. Hold up the STOP sign.

"You are telling me about ____. This is not respecting people's privacy.

Stop tell me about _____. (What not do do.)
Tell me about Y instead / do Z instead. (What to do)"

Provide the guidance she needs.

Talk to her counselor or get a counselor of your own so you can get support as you make sense of what is appropriate/not appropriate in her particular dx.

Get your expectations clear and then start keeping the boundaries. Besides having a consequence YOU can do like "I could ask her to stop talking to Chicago entirely beach

Galagirl

 

[CTF]

That's right. You could tell her you are going to pass on the errands. Or go for a drive on your own.



Is she enmeshed? Lacks filters?



I think you mean "It would feel like I am grounding her."

Funny you say that. I don't know what her mental health dx is, but one of my parents has Alzheimer. A lot of the time when I'm over there, I have to take the parental role to an 80-something year old man. His body age means nothing. It's his current mental capacity.

He's losing all sense, and he cannot process hard stuff for himself. I cannot sit there EXPLAINING high concept things to him. That only frustrates him, and obfuscates my message. I have to deal with him like being with a kid. Short and sweet. Plain and simple. Like a traffic cop. Do this -- do not do that.

He does something out of bounds? I tell him RIGHT then. Not later. If I tell him right then, he can understand what I am upset about. If I sit and think on it, and he's moved on and forgotten all about this morning? And here I come to talk about upset in the afternoon? He just sees that I'm upset "for no reason" and thinks I'm bringing him misery. Which I am -- he moved on. Do I want my caregiver day to be all about misery or be about smoother sailing? If I have stuff to process still, that is MY stuff. I can process it elsewhere with someone else. It doesn't have to be with him.

So I tell him what he did/did not do in the moment. And what he has to do next. Short and sweet. Plain and simple. Even if it feels parent-y. He usually gets upset just like a little kid. So? I still have to hold the line and guide him along.

"I see you are upset. I am sorry.

This is what is happening right now. I told you I will help if you do X. You have not done X yet. If you want me to help, you have to do X first. (What to do)

We can spend time being upset (what he does not want/like) or we can get on with the show so you can have me helping you with ____. (what he does want/like)

What would you like right now? It is your choice."​

He used to fight me, because he HATES being held accountable and exercising self control. But now when we get to that place he just hurries up and "gets on with the show" so he can get to the things he likes. Or he picks being upset and I put it on the timer. Because I'm ok allowing space to vent or whatever, but I'm not going to be doing it for several hours! Have to get on with the show.

To me you sound like maybe you struggle to accept your patient relationship with your wife. You remind me of my Mom.

She has not accepted Patient Dad, and the fact that their relationship has changed. And that yeah, she's going to have to maintain boundaries, hold him accountable, and tell him what to do/what not do. Because he cannot reliably tell himself. And he cannot see when he's being inappropriate. He's lost/losing filters.

All the poly stuff set aside? That sounds like it could be the core thing here. Like you want her to be relating to you like Healthy Wife. But she just isn't. She's Patient Wife.

Being a patient wife doesn't excuse her from owning her stuff and doing her jobs -- some patients try to coast like they got the "Patient Hall Pass."

My dad does that. He'd LOVE for everyone to let him coast and not be held accountable. Me? I change my expectations and still hold him accountable.

• In his condition do I expect him to balance his checkbook? NO. He has lost that capacity.
  
• Do I expect him to fee the dog? YES. Do I expect him to fold and put away laundry? YES. He's perfectly capable doing those things still.

So I think you could skip explaining. Just tell her what you want her to do and expect her to do it. Even if it feels "parent-y." try that on for a while and see if things get better that way. If she has no filter and cannot respect people's privacy? Accept it and when it happens, just be a traffic cop. Hold up the STOP sign.

"You are telling me about ____. This is not respecting people's privacy.

Stop tell me about _____. (What not do do.)
Tell me about Y instead / do Z instead. (What to do)"

Provide the guidance she needs.

Talk to her counselor or get a counselor of your own so you can get support as you make sense of what is appropriate/not appropriate in her particular dx.

Get your expectations clear and then start keeping the boundaries.

Galagirl

I don't know if she lacks filters. She's never shown signs of that before. She definitely knows how to use discretion when she needs to hide something of her own... But when it comes to other people, there tends to be this sense that, everything is fair game, as long as no one has specifically said no. So now, when we have conversations about something I wish to remain private, I have to finish everything by telling her that I don't want anyone else to hear it. To my knowledge, she's respecting that privacy of mine, but I keep hearing stories about other people that, I wonder, if they know that she's telling me. It's just odd, because she's never been the gossipy type. At the same time, I wonder if maybe, I'm just more sensitive to it now, since I learned of my personal issues being told to others. Perhaps I really didn't notice it before, since issues I don't care about tend to float away from my focus.

As for her diagnosis, she's Obsessive Compulsive, with severe panic disorder & Anxiety. I forget the exact wording on her paperwork, but something along that phrasing.

"I think you mean "It would feel like I am grounding her."..."

Yes. That's exactly what I meant. It would be one thing to suggest Chicago goes away permanently. While it wouldn't bother me at all if he did, I thought that by showing her that I trust her ability to handle his advances, not sending him to the corn fields served to illustrate the difference between her handling him, vs Jersey & Canada. She did offer to cut him off too, but I left that completely up to her. Of course, if this is going to continue, he may have to join the other two in exile... I just don't think that something temporary sends the right message.

Yes, it's definitely tough having to treat my wife as a patient. It makes the marriage feel less like a partnership. There have been some areas, where I have no problem "making" her do things...

For example. Anytime we leave the house for a significant amount of time, I make sure she brings her meds. Aside from short trips to the market, I always ask her if she brought them. Sometimes she remembers, and sometimes she forgets. Usually, when she forgets, she doesn't want to walk back into the house to get them, so she'll say "I'll be okay. I'll take them when we get home". That's not good enough. I tell her we're not going anywhere until she gets them. But, in order to teach her of the consequences, I let it slide once... Needless to say, she learned that it was a VERY bad idea to leave them at home. So now, I have a consequence to point to. She understands more, but does try the "I'll be okay" bit once in a while. But she always brings them.

Yes. I do want to be relating to her. I didn't mean to set the poly stuff aside, I just meant that, in addition to that, or even without that, we still have some problems relating to one another. It seemed like it all started with the poly discussion, and it became just one avenue where I feel like nothing was as it appeared, but uncovered a treasure trove of things we've been on different pages on.

I will definitely work on the expectations & keeping the boundaries.

 

[GalaGirl]

Yes. I do want to be relating to her. I didn't mean to set the poly stuff aside, I just meant that, in addition to that, or even without that, we still have some problems relating to one another.

That's what I meant too. This thread started out being about poly boundary things but there's all these other areas where better boundaries are needed.

As for her diagnosis, she's Obsessive Compulsive, with severe panic disorder & Anxiety. I forget the exact wording on her paperwork, but something along that phrasing.

That's a challenging one.

Yes, it's definitely tough having to treat my wife as a patient. It makes the marriage feel less like a partnership.

Yes. I can imagine its not the same as being partnered to someone who does not have patient issues.

I will suggest it is still a partnership though -- just a different kind. Hopefully with new management plan with new counselor things will continue to improve and your relationship with wife will improve.

You still have to deal with her chronic patient things. Case in point:

she'll say "I'll be okay. I'll take them when we get home". That's not good enough. I tell her we're not going anywhere until she gets them. But, in order to teach her of the consequences, I let it slide once... Needless to say, she learned that it was a VERY bad idea to leave them at home.

• She can't leave the meds at home if she's going out with you. (your boundary)
• If she forgets? You will remind her of your boundary and you will not move the car til she goes in to get them. (Consequence you can do.)

You keep boundaries already, so I don't see it any different here. Keep your communication boundary.

• If she can't remember to not blurt on her own? You will remind her that you don't want to hear other people's private stuff. (your boundary)
• You will tell her to stop. You will redirect her to something else. If she keeps it up, you will take a time out.(Consequence you can do.)

How you do the time out is up to you -- skip errands for the day, go for a drive on your own, etc.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hey there CTF,

What about the idea of giving her "three strikes?" If she mentions Chicago Guy to you once or twice, you let it slide with a warning. But if she does it a third time, then she has to stop talking to him permanently.

Just a thought ...

 

[CTF]

Hey there CTF,

What about the idea of giving her "three strikes?" If she mentions Chicago Guy to you once or twice, you let it slide with a warning. But if she does it a third time, then she has to stop talking to him permanently.

Just a thought ...

That's not a bad idea. Although, I need to present it in a way that doesn't feel like a game. Of course, she's already on strike two the way I see it. So maybe, it's not a bad idea to just cut things off after the next mention. Thanks for the tip.

 

[kdt26417]

Not a problem, hope it helps.

 

[CTF]

That's what I meant too. This thread started out being about poly boundary things but there's all these other areas where better boundaries are needed.



That's a challenging one.



Yes. I can imagine its not the same as being partnered to someone who does not have patient issues.

I will suggest it is still a partnership though -- just a different kind. Hopefully with new management plan with new counselor things will continue to improve and your relationship with wife will improve.

You still have to deal with her chronic patient things. Case in point:

• She can't leave the meds at home if she's going out with you. (your boundary)
• If she forgets? You will remind her of your boundary and you will not move the car til she goes in to get them. (Consequence you can do.)

You keep boundaries already, so I don't see it any different here. Keep your communication boundary.

• If she can't remember to not blurt on her own? You will remind her that you don't want to hear other people's private stuff. (your boundary)
• You will tell her to stop. You will redirect her to something else. If she keeps it up, you will take a time out.(Consequence you can do.)

How you do the time out is up to you -- skip errands for the day, go for a drive on your own, etc.

Galagirl

I see. Sorry. I guess I got thrown off by the question mark. But you're right. While the poly conversation opened the door, it appears that we're still in mostly the same situation even if that weren't the case. I just wonder if I'd been able to handle it better not knowing about the poly, which subsequently triggered my depression in a bad way.

Her mental health status is VERY challenging. Previously, she's had bouts with anxiety, but nothing we weren't able to tackle together. I don't know, maybe I just had a better grip on my confidence, helping her ultimately come back to center. At the same time (not to fully blame the other guys, but...) she did seem to discover that there were people out there who were totally willing to coddle her, and be her "freak out" buddy, which, in my opinion, is the last thing she needed, but she wanted.

I know it's still a partnership. And in many ways, I have to admit, it's been easier to accomplish some tasks. I've always been the one to handle the money. But at times, it would take longer to make a financial decision if we had differing opinions... Now, she has absolutely no interest in making financial decisions. Not to brag, but pretty good at managing money and creating/maintaining a budget. However, there are times where I could really use her input. Other than that, it's very difficult to feel like we're both contributing to the same goal at times.

Yeah... The meds are a must. And while I'd really like to see her get off of some of them, I understand their necessity. While I can see the consequences of her skipping a dose, she feels them. And it's not pleasant.

Going for a drive is usually how I can best get out of the house, and into a change of scenery. It's also the best way to be able to avoid conversations on the phone, should she decide she wants to call & talk some more... Sorry honey, I was driving & couldn't answer the phone.

 

[GalaGirl]

Sounds like coping with having an OCD patient when you were more ok was hard. And now when you struggle with depression of your own, it's even harder.

Not anyone's fault here. It is what it is. But I am sorry that it is hard.

I hope things continue to improve for you -- and I am glad you do notice some improvements. It's probably just going to take time.

Galagirl

 

[Ravenscroft]

Here's a brief (but maybe helpful) overview of using natural/logical consequences to give someone the benefit of exploring boundaries.

Remember:

• related
• respectful
• reasonable

 

[CTF]

Sounds like coping with having an OCD patient when you were more ok was hard. And now when you struggle with depression of your own, it's even harder.

Not anyone's fault here. It is what it is. But I am sorry that it is hard.

I hope things continue to improve for you -- and I am glad you do notice some improvements. It's probably just going to take time.

Galagirl

It's definitely hard. No doubt about that. Before my dad got sick, I had a pretty good handle on my depression for years. But having two events taking place back to back (Dad's passing & the poly bomb) brought it back in a way could never have imagined. Last year was the absolute worst I had felt in my life. I had even (albeit briefly) considered suicide. I simply couldn't function day to day. I lost one of the closest people I ever had, and felt that the other just didn't want me anymore.

Thank you for the kind thoughts... It's not easy trying to help stablize someone else, when you're pretty unstable yourself.

 

[CTF]

Here's a brief (but maybe helpful) overview of using natural/logical consequences to give someone the benefit of exploring boundaries.

Remember:

• related
• respectful
• reasonable

Thank you. I read the list, and it all makes a ton of sense. It's difficult to find the related consequences for some of these actions, unless I just take it upon myself to leave the room, go for a drive, etc...