Mono/Non-Mono - Struggling to Accept

[kdt26417]

kdt26417 said:

Have you been very specific in describing what it is you would like to hear from her?

gnc0758 said:

"I have, even to the point that she has said that she feels as if I am giving her a script of what to say."

kdt26417 says:
Well the thing is, she can't use the excuse that she supposedly doesn't know what you need her to do.

Also, why should she mind that it's a script, as long as she can recite the script honestly and mean it? or is the problem that she doesn't -- couldn't -- mean it?

Furthermore, if she doesn't like the script that you suggest, she could suggest a script of her own and ask if that would still meet your need. Such as rewriting the script you suggested in her own words.

 

[gnc0758]

I wanted to lift that up because I missed it before and if you really don't want to be there then anything else is moot.

You are allowed to withdraw consent. You tried something, it does not float your boat like you thought. You can decide to stop doing it.

Don't give consent when you really are NOT consenting. You are trying to assuage guilt / regret by doing something you do not really want to do. That's not effective emotional management -- that's just adding on to your load.

http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/01/brill...xual-consent-means-in-everyday-terms-5274497/

Your wife can feel disappointed, but she can handle that. Her emotional management is part of her job.

You being HONEST about where you stand is part of your job. She cannot mind reader. Don't give false info. Give full info. Do your job.

Then she can figure out what she wants to do after that.

• Give up the want and stay with you because she values that more at this time.
  
• Or want to keep going because she values that want more at this time. She would have to pause long enough to break up with you so you can continue in your want to be free of all that.
  
• Or some other thing I cannot think of right now.

But at least then you are talking openly and honestly.

Galagirl

I told her that I cannot give my consent anymore. She was very upset, but I stood my ground.

She initially said that she would break it off, but she then asked me if I would be comfortable with them just being friends. I have a few concerns, because the sexual attraction is not something that can be just turned off in my opinion.

 

[tenK]

I told her that I cannot give my consent anymore. She was very upset, but I stood my ground.

She initially said that she would break it off, but she then asked me if I would be comfortable with them just being friends. I have a few concerns, because the sexual attraction is not something that can be just turned off in my opinion.

The physical attraction might not go away for quite some time, but her ability to act upon it or not is well within her control. Do you worry that she won't be able to do that for some reason, and that temptation will be too much? Or do you feel uncomfortable just with the idea that she can experience and (possibly) enjoy an attraction with someone else in the first place?

Remember, you can't control what she feels. All you can do is continue to consent to being in a relationship with her under whatever conditions have been agreed upon, or not. It's possible that she may yet decide that the conditions she originally consented to when you guys first got together (i.e. monogamy) are no longer going to work for her. So whilst I think it's a good thing that you've found and articulated your limits here, you might well be in for more discussion in the upcoming days and weeks ahead.

Going back to your original concern though…personally I don't enjoy being around someone I feel attracted to if I'm not free to express that, so if I chose to forego acting upon my feelings I'd want space from the other person until such a time that my feelings matched the level of intimacy I was able to provide. However, not everyone is like me. Some people find it easy to transition into a friendship, and much depends on whether she already sees him as a friend (with benefits) rather than a boyfriend. Your concerns seem to basically boil down to an issue of trust. In your case, I would not be seeking to limit her choice of friends, but I would be seeking assurances that she wanted to rebuild trust with you, and that she was happy with her own choice to stay monogamous with you. Without that, it's hard to see how you can move forward confidently.

 

[GalaGirl]

I told her that I cannot give my consent anymore. She was very upset, but I stood my ground.

Glad you are communicating and being authentic.

She initially said that she would break it off, but she then asked me if I would be comfortable with them just being friends.

Fair enough.

Now you have a new offer to consider.

I have a few concerns, because the sexual attraction is not something that can be just turned off in my opinion.

So she lives with sexual attraction for a while and exercises self control until it fades. She gets to keep him as a friend, and you get to not be in polyship any more.

Is this offer something you want to consent to? Do you want to counter offer? Do you prefer a split? That they NOT remain friends?

Don't stop being honest and up front now. When I negotiate I tend to give my three places for good, better, bad best case scenarios. What are your three scenarios?

• Good: Break up with him, be friends?
  
• Better: Break up with him, be friends, but have 30 days no contact before trying to be friends. Give all of you time to adjust to the new way of going.
  
• Best: Divorce so you don't have to deal with any of it?

Keep sorting it out. Seriously think this out and what you want to be doing so it best meets your need to be free of poly. And her need to ____?

Lean into it. Don't lean away from it. You could ask her if returning to Closed is what she really wants. Because you don't want a situation where now it is HER consenting to something she really doesn't want to be in to assuage guilt.

Galagirl

 

[gnc0758]

An update:

She didn't remain friends with him, as he faded away. We discussed the subject again last month, and agreed to meet each other's needs along the way. Her need is primarily reassuring her that this won't wreck our marriage.

My needs are well documented in this thread, and she has regressed to not doing a good job of meeting them. Her strategy seems to be avoid talking to me about my feelings and become defensive when I bring them up.

 

[kdt26417]

Hmmm, it does not sound like things have improved overall. Perhaps she feels that since she's not seeing anyone else right now, therefore she doesn't have to try to reassure you?

What will you do? Will you stay in the marriage and just try to endure it?

 

[GalaGirl]

It sounds like she agreed to meet your needs. And now she's not meeting them.

In the new update you seem to state she is not meeting your need for clear communication.

• She avoids talking to you about your feelings. (She does not ask you how you are feeling?)
• If you bring up how you are feeling? She does defensive listening. (In an attempt to shut the conversation down?)

Have you guys considered a counselor to help with HOW you guys communicate about feelings? Because you don't seem to be able to solve it on your own.

Maybe you could stop consenting to be in an Open relationship with her until that communication skills is mastered? Otherwise it sounds like cart before horse.

I see she WANTS to go there at this time, and have more than one partner. But she doesn't seem ABLE to do in it a way where all her partners are satisfied and happy to be there in a V with her as the hinge. How many times do you have to do this with your wife and trip up on this missing skill before you both decide to stop to grow the skills first?

Communicating about feelings seems to be an obstacle. You both could develop the skill to talk about your own feelings, and listen to someone else talk about theirs. So it isn't an obstacle any more.

THEN try to poly after that skill is in both your toolboxes.

Galagirl

 

[IndieSolo]

I've long been hesitant to invest in the idea that each person in a relationship should be meeting each other's needs. When people come here and post about not "having the needs met" by a partner, I've come to think that there is far too much hurt and disappointment created out of this idea that that is what our partners are supposed to do.

I think that what works better, oftentimes, is for each person to determine what sort of journey they want the relationship to be, and to then see if their goals for their lives and the relationship match up. Then, also, to see if their partner is someone who stands beside them and is willing to head toward the same goal together. If so, that's great. But I question whether or not a tit-for-tat deal ("you take care of my needs and I'll take care of yours") is ever what relationships really need to thrive and be satisfying to each person. I think a lot, and I mean A LOT, of the needs we expect our partners to satisfy are actually things we really need to give to ourselves.

Just my 2¢.

 

[gnc0758]

Perhaps she feels that since she's not seeing anyone else right now, therefore she doesn't have to try to reassure you?

You hit the nail on the head.

She is talking and dating others, but no boyfriend yet. I still have anxiety about it, though. I miss her when she is gone.

She just seems reluctant to reassure me and show me that I am special. I do those things on a daily basis (trust me, I've been married to her for 30 years and I have it down), and I am just asking for the same in return.

It's like she doesn't want to think about the fact that I may be insecure or clingy. It seems to annoy her or something.

I've long been hesitant to invest in the idea that each person in a relationship should be meeting each other's needs.

Perhaps you could look at it another way. She comes to me and says that she wants to have a boyfriend, a new dynamic to our relationship. I want to support her, but I am uneasy about the idea and need some reassurances along the way as we are starting out.

Communicating about feelings seems to be an obstacle. You both could develop the skill to talk about your own feelings, and listen to someone else talk about theirs. So it isn't an obstacle any more.

That's the thing. Each time, she comes across as willing to communicate about my feelings before starting. But then it is a different story once others are in the picture.

 

[Tinwen]

Each time, she comes across as willing to communicate about my feelings before starting. But then it is a different story once others are in the picture.

Would you be willing to be more specific? I you describe a situation, or a few examples (what you were asking for, how you did it, at what point she got defensive etc.), you might get some insight yourself by thinking about it, and we might be able to point out more about the specifics of your communication. At this time, I can just guess what is happening there.
(And my guess is, that she doesn't want to fulfill some of the things you are asking for but is not upfront about her limits, perhaps of fear. Perhaps she feels you are imposing a lot of demands on her, for whatever reason. If she was upfront, perhaps you could adjust to her limits, and she could come up with alternative ways of reassuring you, so you two could find a solution together.)

 

[FallenAngelina]

She comes to me and says that she wants to have a boyfriend, a new dynamic to our relationship. I want to support her, but I am uneasy about the idea and need some reassurances along the way as we are starting out..

When people say "meeting needs" they mean that they want to feel good about a situation and the truth is that nobody can ever do that for you. Going to someone for reassurance, however common, always provides a temporary fix for insecurities and is nothing compared to a peaceful heart. You want to feel valued and cherished, not have "needs" met, and the way you feel valued and treasured is to feel it from within. You won't get that feeling from a display of behaviors from your wife that may or may not have authenticity. You want your wife to give to you of her own free will because she is inspired, not because she is checking off your "needs" from a list. You want the close, emotional connection to be there and that is only possible when you are able to keep your own emotional stability, independent of what anyone else is doing. Only then do you have something to offer her emotionally and keep the connection going. Otherwise, you're both on rocky seas, poly or no poly. This happens in mono relationships all the time, where each looks to the other to "meet my needs." This kind of dependency on another's benevolent gaze is never an emotionally peaceful situation because another can never offer you enough to assuage the doubts and fears that you feel inside, even less so if you are looking at her wth expectant eyes, asking her to "meet your needs."

 

[YouAreHere]

When people say "meeting needs" they mean that they want to feel good about a situation and the truth is that nobody can ever do that for you.

I don't know if we can paint "meeting needs" with that broad a brush. I *do* have needs in a relationship: some amount of time with that person, the ability to communicate with that person as equals, the ability to work well together, joke with each other, come to difficult agreements, etc. These are all things that I value in a relationship and wouldn't want to NOT have in a relationship.

If my partner weren't communicating with me, after previously agreeing to, I would consider that "not meeting my needs," and would want to take some sort of action to fix that. Continuing to not communicate would probably lead to and end of my relationship (since I've been-there-done-that in my previous marriage, and don't ever plan to do that again).

If people really do mean "I need to feel good" by that phrase, well... it probably means that they need to dig a bit deeper and figure out what will help them do that, rather than put the complete onus of "feeling good" on their partner.

I like Tinwen's suggestion: coming up with specific suggestions for communication. Some suggestions: maybe an hour set aside every week to talk at a set time/day of the week, implementing some rules of discussion (when it's my turn to talk, there should be no interruptions. I'll stop every 5/10 min to allow feedback). Something like that. Maybe more specific suggestions will work better than a nebulous request to "communicate better."

 

[GalaGirl]

You have a lot going on in several areas. I have questions about them. Could you be willing to clarify where you stand in each of these areas?
(You don't have to if you don't want to.)

ONE

Her need is primarily reassuring her that this won't wreck our marriage.

So... what behavior does she plan on doing to help sustain the marriage? So far she doesn't communicate with you, and she doesn't date you so you too feel appreciated and special. If all her time is going into dating new people then where is the time spent dating you?

Does her definition of "Reassure me that this won't wreck out marriage" mean "I want to poly however I want while I take you for granted and neglect you. And I want you to not complain to me about it." Is that what she thinks "successful marriage while poly dating" is? That's what has to happen so the marriage is not "wrecked" to her?

If that is the case? Then no wonder you feel unstable and insecure in this relationship. The problem isn't you feeling unstable and insecure. Your feelings are right for the situation. It just ISN'T a stable or secure situation for you to be in where you could expect to thrive.

The problem is getting you OUT of the shaky situation, not you changing your feelings or ignoring them/becoming numb to them.

TWO

I wonder what you get out of poly. What ARE you getting out of this new Opening?

I wonder if you agreed to Open again hoping that she would appreciate the gesture. And to show her appreciation, she would get around to dating you too instead of taking you for granted.

Is that it?

THREE

You could be more specific about behaviors that could meet your needs to see if she steps it up. You seem to have a hard time articulating.

If that is the case, I could see why she doesn't want to get into long conversations about your feelings. It's your job to know and state what you feel and what you need to solve it. If you sit around going "I feel bad. I want to feel special" and she's asks all these questions to try to help you identify what thought or behavior led to inspiring this feeling? And what specific behavior you want that leads to you feeling special? It's like fishing in the dark forever or trying to be a mind reader to speed this process up.

If that is happening I could see why she might go "Ugh, not again! I don't want to be sitting around killing several hours helping you fish! Figure it out, then make a request when you actually know what you want to ask me for."

There is a world of difference between "I feel bad. Could you reassure me?" where the other person has to be guessing what behavior you want.

And "I feel annoyed when you park the car in the driveway and block me in. I cannot get out like that because I don't drive stick and cannot move you car myself. Could you be willing to park beside me rather than behind me? When you consider how your behavior might affect me, that helps me feel important and special to you."

The first is vague. The other person could say "I'm sorry you feel bad" and you might even feel better for a bit. But it circles back around because nothing specific was solved.

The second is specific behavior. Something can be changed. And hopefully you stop feeling annoyed by cars blocking you. It gets solved because it does not circle back around.

Could taking a need inventory help you list what it is you need? You could print and circle which ones apply.

Do you need to take the feelings inventory?

But if she's still not meeting your needs even after you list specific behaviors? You get nothing enjoyable out of it?

You could withdraw your consent to poly.

FOUR

It did not go great that last time you two tried to have an Opening. Something has to change for this Opening to go a bit better.

I agree with the others about a "checking in" time. Not spend hours doing it, but 15 min for you and 15 min for her sounds like a doable check in once a week, and then dial it down to once a month or less as you get past this initial transitional time. It is normal for things to feel weird. The "old normal" is gone, and the "new normal" isn't fully here yet.

But before you even go doing things like "check ins" -- be sure you even want to be Opening and doing poly.

Polyamory has a way of magnifying all the cracks that were already there. If you were being taken for granted in the marriage before poly? Could have stopped to repair that first and then Open from stronger foundations.

FIVE

Are you both willing and able to see a poly friendly counselor to help you navigate this transition time? Assess what areas need strengthening? I don't see where you answered that.

What other things might you be willing to do to help this Opening go better than the last? When do you stop trying to Open? What are you NOT willing to do?

I am concerned that maybe you floated along into this, and that's part of where the discombobulated/insecure feelings come from. That maybe you don't have firm boundaries about what you will and will not put up with and feel helpless or rudderless or something similar. When really you are the captain of your own ship and you decide what you are and are not up for.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

@ gnc0758 ... do you have a time limit of how long you will endure her reluctance to reassure you and show you that you are special? Was there ever a time in the past when she was eager to reassure you and show you that you are special? Does she know how to do it?