What could i have done to prevent this outcome?

[sunflowersong817]

Let's see...our rules are agreed upon. They are also flexible.

I am the more poly of myself and my husband. We have agreed that, because I am bisexual, I am allowed to date other women, but no men. Sex with another woman is allowed only after he has approved of her and she and I have established a true loving relationship. These things work for me since I don't desire other men, wouldn't want to be with someone my husband was uncomfortable with, and don't enjoy loveless sex.

Beyond that, the woman (and only one woman) has to want to be involved with our family. My husband and children are very important to me and I wouldn't want anyone who didn't respect that and want to build a relationship with them as by being poly I want to add to my family and not take away. This doesn't mean an intimate relationship with my husband. He won't be nor do I really want him sexually involved with my gf. But a friendship should be there. The gf is free to have another relationship if she chooses, but there has to be some form of poly-fidelity. In other words, no casual sex from either of us or her and her other.

Beyond that, full honesty and full disclosure. Hubby and I are primary, at least in the beginning stages as we do have children to think about.

However, with my last gf, we were ready to change the rules. We would have moved on to a full triad if she had been willing. The rules are there for guidelines and taking first steps for everyone's comfort and safety. The good thing about them is that they can be amended to fit the individual situation at any time by discussion and agreement.

this is my first time here, or any place like this for that matter, and after reading many comments, this one most accurately describes my questions and concerns. my husband and i are now separated, i am bi sexual bringing another woman into our relationship, was an option for both of us, however call it rules, or agreements, or in my case a need, i know who i am after all i am 62, i should by now, my first and most primary need, request or rule was honesty, , my husband broke that bond several times as he would meet women, straight women, have an affair, behind my back, i was completely clueless, and as fate would have it the truth came out, and he then would try and talk me into getting to know the woman, at the same time trying to convince her to consider "joining" us, well hell no, first the women he had affairs with all knew he was married, all knew he was cheating and i only found out about these affairs either by pure accident, or in a couple of cases, the women contacted me, to let me know who they were when he wanted to end the affair as retaliation, or on two other occasions my husband felt guilty and told me, then could not understand why i wanted nothing to do with these women, after each affair, we discussed in depth i might add, how another woman would come into our relationship, that the only way another would ever be with either one of us would be with both of us, that was agreed upon each and every time, there is no way on earth i would ever consider entering into a relationship with a woman who had gone along with my husband cheating on me with her. i love my husband, i still love him, the pain of those affairs, has proved far more than i could bear, especially since i made it crystal clear each time that if he met someone he felt he might want to pursue a relationship with us with, to just talk to me, about her, after all i was bisexual and i had no objection to the possibility of bringing another woman into our relationship, however i had no interest in one night stands, casual sex, or sex for sport, for lack of a better description i guess a committed relationship between the three of us. after this last affair we separated, we live in the same house on separate floors, he can do as he pleases, see whom he wishes, however i am no longer a part of the equation. that was my choice. so i am left with a broken heart, confused as to why he continued to cheat, very confused by the way,and a little angry. my perfect world would be my husband, myself and another woman that we would live together sharing each others lives, that we loved, respected, and protected each other, however as stated before i am 62, and that just seems like wish now, so i guess my question here is why, what could i have done to prevent the unhappy outcome i have experienced.

 

[GreenAcres]

this is my first time here, or any place like this for that matter, and after reading many comments, this one most accurately describes my questions and concerns. my husband and i are now separated, i am bi sexual bringing another woman into our relationship, was an option for both of us, however call it rules, or agreements, or in my case a need, i know who i am after all i am 62, i should by now, my first and most primary need, request or rule was honesty, , my husband broke that bond several times as he would meet women, straight women, have an affair, behind my back, i was completely clueless, and as fate would have it the truth came out, and he then would try and talk me into getting to know the woman, at the same time trying to convince her to consider "joining" us, well hell no, first the women he had affairs with all knew he was married, all knew he was cheating and i only found out about these affairs either by pure accident, or in a couple of cases, the women contacted me, to let me know who they were when he wanted to end the affair as retaliation, or on two other occasions my husband felt guilty and told me, then could not understand why i wanted nothing to do with these women, after each affair, we discussed in depth i might add, how another woman would come into our relationship, that the only way another would ever be with either one of us would be with both of us, that was agreed upon each and every time, there is no way on earth i would ever consider entering into a relationship with a woman who had gone along with my husband cheating on me with her. i love my husband, i still love him, the pain of those affairs, has proved far more than i could bear, especially since i made it crystal clear each time that if he met someone he felt he might want to pursue a relationship with us with, to just talk to me, about her, after all i was bisexual and i had no objection to the possibility of bringing another woman into our relationship, however i had no interest in one night stands, casual sex, or sex for sport, for lack of a better description i guess a committed relationship between the three of us. after this last affair we separated, we live in the same house on separate floors, he can do as he pleases, see whom he wishes, however i am no longer a part of the equation. that was my choice. so i am left with a broken heart, confused as to why he continued to cheat, very confused by the way,and a little angry. my perfect world would be my husband, myself and another woman that we would live together sharing each others lives, that we loved, respected, and protected each other, however as stated before i am 62, and that just seems like wish now, so i guess my question here is why, what could i have done to prevent the unhappy outcome i have experienced.

Not that this is an excuse for cheating, but one things you both could have done was not unicorn hunt and pursue only triads. Do a search here on "triads" and "unicorn hunting" to help you understand the issues with this. Your dream of a triad isn't unrealistic because of your age---it's unrealistic for almost everyone.

His cheating is on him. There could be any number of reasons for it, including that he didn't want a triad, but wanted to be free to date on his own (which is how most people experienced at poly do it, rather than trying to date as a couple). Perhaps he was attracted largely to straight women, but didn't feel he could tell you that because of the rule in place (that is still on him, but would suggest you guys were in no place to practice poly anyway). Perhaps he was just a dishonest ass. Who knows?

Perhaps by posting your story in your own thread, folks here can give you some ideas on how to heal.

 

[GalaGirl]

I agree about making your own thread.

And I'm sorry you went through that. Sounds rough.

I don't know what you could do about the cheating. That's on him. You taking up with his cheating partner yourself does not erase his poor behavior in cheating! That's covered here:

http://felislunae.org/relationships-love/coming-clean/

It isn't like polyamory is "cheater proof." People can cheat on their poly agreements also.

bringing another woman into our relationship, was an option for both of us

i had no interest in one night stands, casual sex, or sex for sport, for lack of a better description i guess a committed relationship between the three of us.

Were that the only options? Be Closed, share a GF, or cheat? And since you cannot describe a triad... did you know there ARE other models besides triads?

i made it crystal clear each time that if he met someone he felt he might want to pursue a relationship with us with, to just talk to me, about her, after all i was bisexual and i had no objection to the possibility of bringing another woman into our relationship

What if he's interested and the third party is interested in him but not in a triad with you? They don't want to be "brought into our relationship" like an appendage. But prefer to form their own separate relationship with him?

The correct thing to do is for him to tell you he's interested in a potential and ask if you are up for a "V" model where he's the shared sweetie. And you too could date separately.

I wonder though if you two even had that language to be able to ASK. Cannot ask for a "V" or a "quad" or a "network" or "polycule" or "polyamory for your side and poly + swinging on mine" if there's lack of vocabulary, knowledge, and skills.

People can make up their own configurations. Open models can be however it is the participants author it. That article doesn't cover it all, but it's a helpful talking tool. Like "I want a 1a, maybe a 2. With a little of X."

Lack of vocabulary or knowledge can exacerbate other areas too. Cannot also have conversation to plan to deal with cowgirls wanting to rope him off or "kid in a candy store" or whatever other pitfalls. Or poly hell. Or how to make things suck.

"Be honest" might be a good start, but it might not be enough instruction for "How to do" poly WELL with you. How would you write that manual? How to do poly with Sunflowersong817? Or did you expect him to magically know?

my perfect world would be my husband, myself and another woman that we would live together sharing each others lives, that we loved, respected, and protected each other

Does that HAVE to be like a cohabitating triad? Or like a "V" with you as the "shared sweetie?" And GF lives in her own house down the street?

I know triad is the easiest to imagine, because it does seem like "add someone else to the existing couple" or "a couple, but with three people." But it is one of hardest to practice. It is essentially 3 v's stacked up on top of each other. It's super intense.

And the couple pretty much decides to BREAK UP. It seems like they don't, because here they are still. But the "2 people thing" is over. And it isn't coming back. They deliberately end it in favor of trying a new model. There's some weird grief to process there that people are sometimes not even aware they are processing.

Similar to parenting. My husband and I will NEVER get "married no kids" back. Oh, the children will grow up and move out. But "empty nest" is not the same as "never parented at all." We won't ever be that couple again.

So... I guess some of those could be places you could have done better since I don't see you writing about it -- vocabulary, knowledge, agreement making and negotiation skills.

I mean, if the agreement gets broken over and over? He's got a problem to overcome somewhere because he doesn't seem able to go

"No. I cannot keep this agreement. I am very sorry I broke it and cheated. I could have come to you first. But knowing that agreement is too tight for me now? I cannot in good faith sign up for that same agreement again just to upset us both again down the road. Things have to change. I want to be with you but I cannot do it like that."​

But on YOUR side ... you have eyes. You also seem to have a problem. Why keep asking for same agreements you already know he cannot manage to keep? After the first affair? You could have asked

"I see you are not able to keep these agreements. These agreements as written are not realistic or working here.

I know I need honesty.

What can we change here so you are more able to give it? Are you needing something ELSE like the option of a V model? Dating separately?

Is it a lack of a skill? What is blocking you from communicating with me ahead of time? Am I not providing a safe space for you to talk to me in?

Are you WILLING to be honest but not ABLE? Or just not willing?"​

What would you like to happen here? You seem wistful.

Is it that you want to stay separate but wanted to express some sadness? Need help to heal and move on?

Or is it that you want to try to get back together with husband but don't want a repeat of hurts so feel gun shy? Or something else?

Again, I am sorry you went through that. I hope you feel a bit better sharing your story.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi sunflowersong817,

I don't know if there was much you could have done about your situation, as your husband made the decision to go behind your back and I doubt he would have listened if you asked him not to do that.

Maybe it's just that affairs are more generally accepted than poly. Who knows?

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[sunflowersong817]

I agree about making your own thread.

And I'm sorry you went through that. Sounds rough.

I don't know what you could do about the cheating. That's on him. You taking up with his cheating partner yourself does not erase his poor behavior in cheating! That's covered here:

http://felislunae.org/relationships-love/coming-clean/

It isn't like polyamory is "cheater proof." People can cheat on their poly agreements also.





Were that the only options? Be Closed, share a GF, or cheat? And since you cannot describe a triad... did you know there ARE other models besides triads?



What if he's interested and the third party is interested in him but not in a triad with you? They don't want to be "brought into our relationship" like an appendage. But prefer to form their own separate relationship with him?

The correct thing to do is for him to tell you he's interested in a potential and ask if you are up for a "V" model where he's the shared sweetie. And you too could date separately.

I wonder though if you two even had that language to be able to ASK. Cannot ask for a "V" or a "quad" or a "network" or "polycule" or "polyamory for your side and poly + swinging on mine" if there's lack of vocabulary, knowledge, and skills.

People can make up their own configurations. Open models can be however it is the participants author it. That article doesn't cover it all, but it's a helpful talking tool. Like "I want a 1a, maybe a 2. With a little of X."

Lack of vocabulary or knowledge can exacerbate other areas too. Cannot also have conversation to plan to deal with cowgirls wanting to rope him off or "kid in a candy store" or whatever other pitfalls. Or poly hell. Or how to make things suck.

"Be honest" might be a good start, but it might not be enough instruction for "How to do" poly WELL with you. How would you write that manual? How to do poly with Sunflowersong817? Or did you expect him to magically know?



Does that HAVE to be like a cohabitating triad? Or like a "V" with you as the "shared sweetie?" And GF lives in her own house down the street?

I know triad is the easiest to imagine, because it does seem like "add someone else to the existing couple" or "a couple, but with three people." But it is one of hardest to practice. It is essentially 3 v's stacked up on top of each other. It's super intense.

And the couple pretty much decides to BREAK UP. It seems like they don't, because here they are still. But the "2 people thing" is over. And it isn't coming back. They deliberately end it in favor of trying a new model. There's some weird grief to process there that people are sometimes not even aware they are processing.

Similar to parenting. My husband and I will NEVER get "married no kids" back. Oh, the children will grow up and move out. But "empty nest" is not the same as "never parented at all." We won't ever be that couple again.

So... I guess some of those could be places you could have done better since I don't see you writing about it -- vocabulary, knowledge, agreement making and negotiation skills.

I mean, if the agreement gets broken over and over? He's got a problem to overcome somewhere because he doesn't seem able to go

"No. I cannot keep this agreement. I am very sorry I broke it and cheated. I could have come to you first. But knowing that agreement is too tight for me now? I cannot in good faith sign up for that same agreement again just to upset us both again down the road. Things have to change. I want to be with you but I cannot do it like that."​

But on YOUR side ... you have eyes. You also seem to have a problem. Why keep asking for same agreements you already know he cannot manage to keep? After the first affair? You could have asked

"I see you are not able to keep these agreements. These agreements as written are not realistic or working here.

I know I need honesty.

What can we change here so you are more able to give it? Are you needing something ELSE like the option of a V model? Dating separately?

Is it a lack of a skill? What is blocking you from communicating with me ahead of time? Am I not providing a safe space for you to talk to me in?

Are you WILLING to be honest but not ABLE? Or just not willing?"​

What would you like to happen here? You seem wistful.

Is it that you want to stay separate but wanted to express some sadness? Need help to heal and move on?

Or is it that you want to try to get back together with husband but don't want a repeat of hurts so feel gun shy? Or something else?

Again, I am sorry you went through that. I hope you feel a bit better sharing your story.

Galagirl

wow , lots to process here, i came upon this site,and joined because i did need an outlet, if i am gun to my head honest, i want my marriage, i love my husband, other than the cheating, he really has some great qualities, i enjoy being with him, we have fun working in the garden he understands my manic days when i am up for days painting, working on project after project, he gets how focused i become, and does not complain about it. maybe your saying that we have not been as clear as i thought about what we expect from a relationship with another person, that maybe he would prefer to see other women but not with me, so i have to process that, and i am not sure how that works, i however would fare prefer that to the deception

 

[GalaGirl]

Take your time processing.

For sure, cheating is NOT ok.

At the same time? People trip up a lot on "how to do poly well" even now with more books, internet websites or forums, etc.

If you guys are in your 60's, and up until you tried to Open he's been a solid partner? Maybe it's because he had plenty of teaching and models for 1:1 relating growing up. But it isn't like poly resources were plentiful on the ground. So he simply has no clue how to be. And he screwed up BIG.

You know him and his character and track record better than I do.

Like I said... how can you ask to change to __(A V? A quad? Something else?)___ when you don't even know that word or that it exists? You yourself did not seem to know some words.

If you want to get back together, and he is willing? Talk about that.

Maybe you set poly aside and go back to loving each other in a Closed model. The focus is healing from the cheating. Could get a counselor to help with that part.

Maybe you guys still want to try again, but different. The focus is healing from the cheating, getting more education, and planning your Openings WITH HELP. Because you already saw what a mess it became trying to do it by yourselves with not enough preparation. You thought it was enough, but didn't know what you didn't know. So... actually not prepared enough and it blew up big time.

After living together so long it might seem he can read your mind about gardening, painting, cooking or whatever. But it isn't mind readering as much as it is lots of shared experience in those areas. You guys cannot do that HERE, because it is totally new territory.

Maybe this time before you try other Openings, you guys could see a poly-friendly counselor to help guide you along. Help both of you make better, keepable, more realistic agreements, learn the missing or weak skills, and help you guys communicate better during the process. Point out if there's any other "gaps" you don't know about that could rear up and bite you.

Help him make better and non-cheating choices because he can run what he's thinking with the counselor. NOT you, but the counselor, a neutral person. Someone he can ask "So I'm thinking X. Is that cheating? Or is that ok?" And he gets a neutral response and some guidance.

Plan an Opening with counselor guidance. A little one. Maybe a coffee date for each of you with someone else. Then digest that with counselor. Then try another little Opening. Take it a lot slower. Learn to swim in the shallow end of the pool first before you try to surf in the ocean.

And get some reading done. Here's some more links in case it helps.

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/
http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles
http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html
https://www.morethantwo.com

I just hate to think you two seniors love each other but are living in the same house on separate floors like this picture if it is mostly because you guys don't know how to heal from cheating or how to communicate better.

If there isn't anything there any more, of course, that's another story. And to help get past the anger and heart break you could stop living together with him. Have more separateness.

But you sound like there IS something still there. Just not sure what to do about it. Well, first step is ask him to see if there's anything still there for him on his side. Then find a counselor.

See if this is "willing AND able" to make changes here.

Or if this is "willing but NOT ABLE" to make changes here.

You def don't want to sign up for more cheating crazy. So have a counselor help determine each one's abilities. Maybe people need time to work on themselves first before trying to do anything new together.

Then make a plan to move it forward, in whatever way that is.

GL!
Galagirl

 

[sunflowersong817]

move on, how?

this is my first time here, or any place like this for that matter, and after reading many comments, this one most accurately describes my questions and concerns. my husband and i are now separated, i am bi sexual bringing another woman into our relationship, was an option for both of us, however call it rules, or agreements, or in my case a need, i know who i am after all i am 62, i should by now, my first and most primary need, request or rule was honesty, , my husband broke that bond several times as he would meet women, straight women, have an affair, behind my back, i was completely clueless, and as fate would have it the truth came out, and he then would try and talk me into getting to know the woman, at the same time trying to convince her to consider "joining" us, well hell no, first the women he had affairs with all knew he was married, all knew he was cheating and i only found out about these affairs either by pure accident, or in a couple of cases, the women contacted me, to let me know who they were when he wanted to end the affair as retaliation, or on two other occasions my husband felt guilty and told me, then could not understand why i wanted nothing to do with these women, after each affair, we discussed in depth i might add, how another woman would come into our relationship, that the only way another would ever be with either one of us would be with both of us, that was agreed upon each and every time, there is no way on earth i would ever consider entering into a relationship with a woman who had gone along with my husband cheating on me with her. i love my husband, i still love him, the pain of those affairs, has proved far more than i could bear, especially since i made it crystal clear each time that if he met someone he felt he might want to pursue a relationship with us with, to just talk to me, about her, after all i was bisexual and i had no objection to the possibility of bringing another woman into our relationship, however i had no interest in one night stands, casual sex, or sex for sport, for lack of a better description i guess a committed relationship between the three of us. after this last affair we separated, we live in the same house on separate floors, he can do as he pleases, see whom he wishes, however i am no longer a part of the equation. that was my choice. so i am left with a broken heart, confused as to why he continued to cheat, very confused by the way,and a little angry. my perfect world would be my husband, myself and another woman that we would live together sharing each others lives, that we loved, respected, and protected each other, however as stated before i am 62, and that just seems like wish now, so i guess my question here is why, what could i have done to prevent the unhappy outcome i have experienced.

well i tried to talk to my husband a couple of time today, to say that i was willing more than willing to start over, that if seeing other women without me was more what he wanted, that i can agree to that as long as he tells me and there is no more behind my back dating, however the last woman he had an affair with was cruel to me, on the phone, she also came to my home , i will not go into details but she was horrible to me, so i said i was willing to understand him dating without me, with one exception, and that was patty, i just cannot live with him seeing her again, and to my heartbreak he said that he liked her they had fun and he would continue to see her, this just happened, i am in shock, 15 years of marriage, 15 years of forgiving affairs, 15 years of trying and trying mean nothing , i wish i was a better person but i am not, seeing her is like putting a knife in my heart, i do not understand how he can do this, there is no place left to go now, i have to find a way to move on, right now that seems impossible, he made me believe that no one would ever come between us, i cannot understand how we got here, i have no idea what to do now

 

[FallenAngelina]

...affairs are more generally accepted than poly.

There is a lot more to this than we generally recognize on this forum. Affairs are so common that they are part of the historical and societal norm, even historically accepted as a fact of life for any man who can afford it. Polyamory seems downright insane to the unaccustomed, which is most. What most of us polyamorists call "crazy" and secrecy, many others call discretion and respect. Of course, I have no idea what the husband here was thinking but this might help explain that even when a wife/partner grants open permission, the husband still has to operate in a world that thinks polyamory is simply nuts. Nobody conducts his life purely according to an outline of logic.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi sunflowersong817,

It sounds to me like you are at the point of needing a divorce. Sorry, I know that's not what you were hoping to hear. Your consent no longer matters to your husband, and it doesn't bother him to date someone who treats you horribly. That doesn't leave much to negotiate with.

With sympathy,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

after this last affair we separated, we live in the same house on separate floors, he can do as he pleases, see whom he wishes, however i am no longer a part of the equation. that was my choice.

At this time? You guys are separated. You chose it.

So he's been living as he pleases, sees who he wishes. Now you asked him if he wants to get together. With the condition that he does not date Patty. He gave you his answer. He does want to date Patty.

So not a match. I am sorry it is not the outcome you hoped for. I can see you are super disappointed.

But you didn't want him any more like that and separated. He moved on. He isn't cheating on you any more. And you ARE getting the honesty you say is your top thing above all else. Are you able to see that?

He's being honest with you that he doesn't want to take you up on your offer. I think that is fair. It's not what you wanted to hear, but it is fair. You asked, he answered, now you can know. You could thank him for the honesty and then process your stuff on your own.

You really wouldn't have wanted to live with your separated husband in the same house forever right? That doesn't sound like a fence-sitter to me. Sooner or later one has to get off the fence and either start trying to come together or finish uncoupling.

i cannot understand how we got here, i have no idea what to do now

You could still call to set up a counselor, for just you. Then make a plan with the counselor for helping you move forward from here. Process what you need to process. Heal what you need to heal. And become able to move on with your life rather than being stuck on one page.

He's turned the page for him on the dating front. If all he wants is to be friends? That's all he wants and can offer in good faith.

It's ok for you to turn the page for you too on the dating front. And decide if you want to be friends or not. You seem to want to since you describe his friendship behaviors in good ways.

Again, I am sorry. It's a disappointment. It's also solid ground. You know now where things stand now with him so you can move forward to making your next choices.

I hope things get better in time.

hugs,
Galagirl